Dominion Censorship

[Telenil]

Don't get me wrong, I hear everything you say. But if one was inclined to accept the revisionist take on BW that nothing really happened because Mengsk was more or less "back" at the end of BW, then it makes sense. Course, this position paints the UED as being an even more feeble enemy than even before.

Well, yes, if you start from the assumption Mengsk is untouchable, then it makes sense that he is untouchable. But that wasn't really the point, I think.

It's more like it is tiresome (at least to me) to see Mengsk take yet an other massive political defeat and still be securely in power, even though the writers went out of their way to promise the player that it's different this time. It should also have been different the time before that, but it is not exactly the same point.

The explanation given for HotS is that Mengsk is an awesome politician and all that, but a really good politician is not someone that gets exposed as a mass murderer, gets people rioting in the street and manages to bounce back. It is someone that succeeds at not having the people riot against him when the information leaks out.

Why should/shouldn't? Arcturus was ultimately untouched (that "securely on his throne" bit) by both Kate Lockwell's public outing in a media conference and Raynor's Media Blitz attack. Isn't that proof he didn't really need to do anything at all and that he is omnipotent? I don't really like the idea myself, but there is some logic (albeit somewhat twisted) in there.

I would argue that he just got lucky. Strictly speaking, you don't need to be competent or have a strategy to succeed at something - sometimes things turn out your way for reasons that have nothing to do with your actions. But you will lose a lot more if you make rookie mistakes, so, well, you still shouldn't.

[TheEconomist]

Mengsk's activities were not really suppressed at all but just ignored/made largely useless in terms of political potency because he was no longer in a position of power.

I'm sure it's a similiar situation to the world ignoring Nazist, fascist, and communist leaders after they were no longer in a position of power.

Oh wait. That didn't happen. And never has happpened. If it were to happen, Blizzard needed to explain why.

[Turalyon]

It's more like it is tiresome (at least to me) to see Mengsk take yet an other massive political defeat and still be securely in power, even though the writers went out of their way to promise the player that it's different this time. It should also have been different the time before that, but it is not exactly the same point.

I agree that it's tiresome and repetitious to have Mengsk actually be untouchable (yet again?). It effectively turns him into a "hat" and makes him a much more shallow character to boot. However, (I'm adopting FanaticTemplar's perspective here mind you) that Mengsk is shown to be untouchable yet again throughout WoL is, at the least, a consistent portrayal. Why? It's because between BW and WoL, Mengsk had also shown to be untouchable despite what the UED had done to him - that's what the start of WoL seems to shows us at any rate. Mengsk has had practice at being ousted before so he may have used that experience to tackle that this time in WoL maybe. Also, because the Dominion in WoL seems to be more established and successful than it was in BW, Mengsk's power base is perhaps a lot more difficult to erode.

The explanation given for HotS is that Mengsk is an awesome politician and all that, but a really good politician is not someone that gets exposed as a mass murderer, gets people rioting in the street and manages to bounce back. It is someone that succeeds at not having the people riot against him when the information leaks out.

But Mengsk is an awesome politician by the very fact that he is still securely sitting on this throne by WoL's end despite being exposed as a mass-murderer and all the stuff that came as a result of that exposure. Sure, it'd be awesome to be a dictator that everyone loves, but it's just as awesome to be dictator that everyone hates and still be that dictator whilst everyone can do nothing to you.

I would argue that he just got lucky. Strictly speaking, you don't need to be competent or have a strategy to succeed at something - sometimes things turn out your way for reasons that have nothing to do with your actions. But you will lose a lot more if you make rookie mistakes, so, well, you still shouldn't.

It's hard to tell whether it's all luck though and even then, luck can only take you so far if you don't have some sort of forward plan. Whilst Mengsk's abilities as a dictator and propagandist are highly questionable, some of these strategies would have served him well to some degree.

Maybe it was a calculated risk? For example, the Machines in the The Matrix universe had to create a fictional world for humans that included a chance that they could rebel from that system such that the vast majority would willingly adopt it and unwittingly supply them power because the first few iterations of the the Matrix were either too strict or allowed too much freedom which led to the humans rejecting and rebelling in mass scale. The humans weren't a threat to the Machines when they rebelled, it's just that they could've been put to better use for the benefit of the Machines. In Mengsk's case, maybe he allowed Lockwell to do what she does to act as some form of "opiate to the masses" knowing full well that being a dictator, it would take more than just public opinion to take him down. That he is still very much in power by WoL's end and is a fairly powerful foe in HotS seems to suggest that something else other than luck is helping Mengsk. Of course, due to the simplistic rendering of the whole thing, I can't blame anyone for thinking that Mengsk is largely incompetent and just relies on luck because that's how I actually see it too with what we have.

I'm sure it's a similiar situation to the world ignoring Nazist, fascist, and communist leaders after they were no longer in a position of power.

Oh wait. That didn't happen. And never has happpened. If it were to happen, Blizzard needed to explain why.

I didn't mean ignore as in giving a free pass. The damning evidence of "having worked/colluded with the enemy" only has real political traction/potency if Mengsk was still in a position of power or has the capability to vie for such a position of power (again). That's why I said, if Mengsk really had been relegated to a footnote in BW, such information would no longer be deemed important for the masses because it's all about some 'nobody'/has-been. It's all just more negative gossip for a generally nasty person. Whoopdidoo.

Either way, I was largely offering up a hypothetical for a fictional situation, so any relation to it having a real-world analogue is always going to be fraught with problems. Still, I get that it would need explaining but given the lack of information at hand, I can only really spit-ball.

[TheEconomist]

Still, I get that it would need explaining but given the lack of information at hand, I can only really spit-ball.

I agree and it's not your fault. It's Blizzard's fault.

Oh well, back to mah hard sci fi novels.

[Gradius]

Well, according to Frontline, citizens and civilians on the core worlds do know, and were rioting as early as 2502. Censorship isn't anywhere near fool-proof.

The Dominion just brutally murders them when they protest without any one to stop them, killing some, and turning anyone else who survives into more Marines via Resoc. And that's on the core worlds!

The outlying colonies don't have the luxury of escaping the Dominion either. Any hint of what the Dominion considers rebellion, and, well....

Arcturus wasn't fooling everyone. You can tell in-game from the levels on Mar Sara, even if it is hammy.

The Dominion can openly afford to kill pretty much anyone who openly rebels, and spread the news however they would like to.

Media Blitz just managed to abuse Mengsk's monopoly on the news. By using the seemingly only one news network that exist, Mengsk managed to control what other worlds heard about what was happening on other worlds. The same way Mengsk managed to isolate each planet, Raynor managed to deliver the news about Tarsonis to everyone at once, and with evidence that propaganda couldn't really dispute.

Before that, any Marines that are on the Dominion's side can be Resoced to do anything Mengsk wants them to, and any civilian that starts promoting UED propaganda can be shot as a UED sympathizer, or "suddenly" have a change of heart and enlist in the military "willingly."

Hell, Mengsk managed to hold onto the Dominion even after Media Blitz, and open riots on Korhal. His military dictatorship is just too powerful for any normal citizen resistance.

I can accept that after one has already consolidated his power. And I agree with Turalyon that it makes sense if we adopt the revisionist stance of "he was untouchable all along". But my original question was "Just wondering how it's possible for Mengsk to have supressed all knowledge of his activities at a time when he was dethroned, on the run, and all his colonies were controlled by the UED. "

He's in no position to do any of the above after he got sacked multiple times, and it boggles my mind that he's offered a position of power once again. I also don't understand why Media Blitz is a big deal if many people "already know".

Oh boy I can see where this is going. Y'know, you could have gone the full length in the original post to go the "Mengsk should have returned to SoK status"

Pretty much. You guys keep arguing that the people are too stupid to pick anyone else to rule them since Mengsk is the only one with ambition in the SC universe, but it's a hard pill to swallow when apparently so many people are supposed to know about his crimes.

and "the UED should have been welcomed with open arms."

Not really no. That makes as much sense as Mengsk returning to power. :P

-I don't think it's a case of the Dominion's citizenry not knowing anything per se - Liberty's transmissions must have reached some people for instance. However, I'd say it's more a case of willful ignorance/incredulity. There's certainly a precedent in-universe, how the Confederacy claimed that Korhal was planning to nuke Tarsonis first and their strike was to stop that from happening, a claim that seems to have been swallowed up by many people (see LC, Nova).

So why is Media Blitz such a huge deal? You could say "they've finally shown some real evidence" but Liberty has evidence too that's not just an easily faked recording.

Likewise with SK, most people are aware of her being SK, and being a former ally of Mengsk (e.g. ghosts are told that she willingly defected), but Mengsk's hands themselves are kept clean.

"Scientists and military insiders have long speculated that the enigmatic alien is, in fact, an infested human.

Kate
That's right Donny. Is it possible that the leader of the zerg has a human heart?"

but what I took from Tilosky is that Mengsk is willing to play the propaganda game. Let people claim these things, deny them, and make themselves look like conspiracy theorists in the process. We saw with the Confederacy that many willed themselves to believe that the zerg and protoss didn't even exist.

Why did Media Blitz work then? You've got people revolting on the homeworld against what is easily-faked evidence.

So yes, the zerg on Korhal are problematic. But end point, the UED has no monopoly on heroism, and by all indications, Mengsk did save Korhal from an occupying force. It's logical to assume that some people would lose faith in Mengsk post-TC, and heck, a lot of people no doubt did (Dominion's tenuous grip on its colonies, poor UP/KMC relations, etc.). But it's also logical to assume that some are going to stand by Mengsk due to the removal of an occupying force.

Agreed.

As long as that external threat exists, he can get away with anything. So for Mengsk, even after Korhal, even after Char Aleph, it strikes me as true to the setting and human nature that he stays in power. Because as long as he can portray a situation without him as being worse than the situation that currently exists, he has the mandate to stay in power. Weakened power of course, and not without internal threats (e.g. Hauler) and external rebellion (funny how the Dominion only stars dealing with rebels after BW bar the CLF, and I doubt Duran was in it for terran wellbeing), but power nonetheless.

Why doesn't that logic apply to literally anyone else in the setting?'' Apparently Mengsk is the only one capable of using scapegoats. A semi-competent politician would have used Mengsk himself as a scapegoat given that many people already know about his crimes.

I guess Tosh was wrong: "You really that naive? Tomorrow there'll be a new Mengsk and another one after that."

The only excuse anyone would have to still want Mengsk in power is "the writers don't want to introduce new characters".

And since it's going to come up, yes, the UP blockade is a sore thorn in the status quo of 2500, post-BW. However, I have two points. Firstly, the date was given outside the work itself, and I've got a feeling that it was a gimp. But fair enough, that's speculation. The second point is that Mercenaries exists, which states that the Dominion's military is so weak after BW they have to hire mercenaries. That, and we have other sources stating that the Dominion is sparring with the UP and KMC (Frontline is the main source for this, but various other web sources exist too). Point is, the UP story is an anomoly. A glaring anomoly, but it's not indicative of the post-BW situation. Not when we've seen the Dominion have to rebuild its military (GA), deal with political rivals (Thundergod, the Starry Lace story), espionage from said rivals (Collateral Damage) and internal insurgency (Spectres). The in's and outs can be debated until the cows come home - for instance, I've seen the claim that the KMC can claim a victory over the zerg per the raid in Episode VI. I'll take that as a possibility, but then one must also concede that Mengsk can portray defeats as victories too (overthrows UED, spins Char Aleph as a victory in that the zerg remain inactive afterwards) and has even done so in lore (Artika is portrayed as a worthwhile sacrifice, if not victory). And since his Omega line will not doubt be used as evidence for people wanting his head (see "I called in a few favors. Made a few concessions. You'd be surprised to see how many special interest groups in this sector want to see you dead."), all that tells me is that he called in what people already owed him, or acquiesed to existing demands that were met, upon condition of providing military power. Mengsk isn't in a position to owe anyone anything by this dialogue.

From the WoL intro: It is now four years later. "Kerrigan and the zerg have remained ominously silent. Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector."

Mengsk isn't just "vying for power", he's winning as if BW never happened.

2) Mengsk going back to SoK status. I know this is going to come up eventually in the thread, so I'll deal with this ahead of time. Firstly, it's technically possible. I could see that happening. But almost anything could have happened post-BW, and I disptute that BW itself really provides a mandate for it.

If multiple crippling military defeats aren't a mandate then I don't know what is. A universe where "anything can happen" is a crappy sloppily-put-together universe.

Not when the last line is that Mengsk goes back to rule and rebuild his Dominion. Yes, Gradius has attributed that to delusions of granduer, but if that's the case, then I can just as easily claim that Artanis shouldn't be Hierarch despite the same text stating that Artanis is going to rebuild protoss civilization (after all, the protoss are in a precarious position too, with leaders such as Aldaris and Raszagal dead, among others).

You'll notice that the protoss have done jack-all for two games and haven't come close to rebuilding their "glorious civilization". Mengsk on the other hand has nearly taken over the terran sector, invaded Char, and bounced back as if BW never happened. That's why we're complaining about him, and not the protoss.

The "green text" has so far been infalliable up to the end of BW, so when it states something, I tend to take it as fact.

That what, characters plan to rebuild their civilizations? That's a motivation, not a fact. When you look at Mengsk's epilogue, about how he's beaten and crippled and return to Korhal to lick his wounds and merely "plan" reconstruction (quite different than actually accomplishing it), you'll notice the epilogue writers are making it sound far less likely than the protoss rebuilding who merely "returned to Shakuras to rebuild".

Storywise...look, anyone can claim that x would be better than y, story is inherantly subjective, but all I can say is that Mengsk with SoK status was a story told when he had...well, SoK status. WoL and HotS are a story of (among other things) how a man who could fight and win an empire couldn't hold it, that while Mengsk is a great tactician, he's not a great ruler (insert Robert Baratheon reference here). Both these statements will no doubt be disputed, but all I can say is that I liked Mengsk in WoL. One of the reasons I liked him because it showed what I'd suspected as early as when I read Liberty's Crusade. Mengsk is someone who loves to work towards something. He works as a prospector, but gives up his big hit to lead a rebellion. He leads that rebellion to victory and gains an empire, but squanders his rule. Mengsk has always been a general first rather than a ruler. In contrast, Valerian has always been a ruler rather than a general (in as much that he hasn't accomplished military feats that come close to emulating his father). To segway a bit, Mengsk is sort of a dark mirror to Raynor, in that Raynor has always operated on the need to fight for a cause (CMC, MSCC, SoK, protoss, RR), and even after the Dominion topples, goes on to help rebuild human civilization. Raynor wants to fight for something, and will fight for another good cause if the previous one is accomplished (overthrowing Dominion), deemed unachievable (taking out Kerrigan) or deemed morally bankrupt (SoK overthrow of Confederacy). Mengsk will also fight for something, but lacks the moral compass to work within his own achievement, or change tune. Think of how Mengsk reacts to his own citizens as the images Shadow Archon posted. The tragedy of Mengsk is that he knows how to fight for what he wants, but doesn't know how to keep it. Heck, even Juliana was arguably a "conquest" of sorts. People have complained about Mengsk ruling ineffectively in WoL, but to that I can only say, "that's the point." (similar thing with Kerrigan's WoL persona, but that's another matter). Mengsk knows how to rule in some aspects (e.g. the propaganda game, as I mentioned), but not only can he collapse in that (see post-Blitz) but it was a game he was already playing with the SoK. That Mengsk so quickly squanders relations with the UP and KMC (see I, M) even before BW, and how willingly he results to the use of force, shows what kind of ruler he is.

But like I said, subjective. And no doubt that's going to be disputed too.

Fair enough.

and the UED...well, the UED is the remnants of an invading force that was small in size

The UED lost once. Mengsk lost like 3 times. The UED controlled all of his colonies. Why Mengsk and not them?

that's got every right to be hated by the average Dominion citizen

Same with Mengsk, as we established in this thread.

and is in no position to form their own political body.

So clamping down on the sector and taking all the terran planets to rule themselves as per their mission leaves them "in no position to form their own political body"? But Mengsk, after getting deposed, having his power-base explicitly broken by Kerrigan, going on the run, having his crimes potentially exposed as discussed here, and then indebting himself to scrounge up a fleet which he loses anyway, is in a great position to form his own political body after the failure and collapse of his fledgling government?

3) UED. Specifically the idea that they should have become their own political player. To which I say...no. Just no.

And I would agree with you. The only difference between you and me is that you don't want to apply this same logic to Mengsk.

And before it's brought up, whatever leniency the UED gave the KMC for its mining operations in BW is moot since the KMC is free of the Dominion anyway. So while the UED fighting the Dominion is no doubt good for the KMC (same as with every other anti-Dominion rebel group), there's no motive for them to want a UED state in the K sector.

So they don't want to be ruled by the UED, but they're definitely in love with the idea of getting manhandled by Mengsk again. :P

[Shadow Archon]

I can accept that after one has already consolidated his power. And I agree with Turalyon that it makes sense if we adopt the revisionist stance of "he was untouchable all along". But my original question was "Just wondering how it's possible for Mengsk to have supressed all knowledge of his activities at a time when he was dethroned, on the run, and all his colonies were controlled by the UED. "

Well, do they explicitly say "all of Mengsk's colonies were controlled by the UED"?

The UED has Dylar, Braxis, Tarsonis, Char, and Korhal in the campaign itself. We see planets like Moria are still in-control of the KMC, and Umoja isn't mentioned.

Korhal itself isn't the big city planet it is in Starcraft 2, so, it's possible that there isn't a giant civilian presence there, like there is in Starcraft 2.

The Dominion still had a military left, and managed to retake Korhal with Kerrigan and Protoss help just a campaign later.

Given Brood War and Starcraft happen in only a year, you're talking about the UED only having Korhal for maybe two months at most.

Not to mention, do you have a citation that the UED forces have any dirt on Mengsk to circulate?

If they don't, well, that answers the question right there.

The UPL was mainly watching the Zerg and the Protoss before converting into the UED, and was surprised by things like the Psi Disruptor, so they don't know everything about what the Terrans are doing.

He's in no position to do any of the above after he got sacked multiple times, and it boggles my mind that he's offered a position of power once again.

Offered, or took?

The Dominion in SC1 included the Protectorate and the Kel-Morine Combine, and whatever colonies they had separately as well.

The Dominion in SC2 is now a separate political entity.

So, even if the Dominion is the "strongest" power in the sector, it still isn't as strong as they were in SC1.

Something Mengsk did pissed them off. Even if they were having poor relations, Mengsk still had relations with Umoja at the end of I'Mengsk. Now, he's blockading them two years after?

I also don't understand why Media Blitz is a big deal if many people "already know".

Well, we have no idea if it is a majority or a minority. Tyrador had riots, and other colonies called Mengsk a tyrant, but that isn't necessarily every single planet. Other people are loyal and patriotic to the Dominion. Media Blitz is about disseminating the news to everybody, everywhere.

Not everyone knew. Now they do.

[Turalyon]

Given Brood War and Starcraft happen in only a year, you're talking about the UED only having Korhal for maybe two months at most.

So? Mengsk more or less only had control for a time that was not much longer than the UED as well. Mengsk was able to have last lasting control over the remaining Terrans by decapitating the head that was Confederacy and the UED did exactly that to Mengsk in BW. What makes him more special than the UED that he can bounce back and stick around controlling the majority of the Terrans and not the UED? Or for that matter, the Confereate remnants making a comeback?

Not to mention, do you have a citation that the UED forces have any dirt on Mengsk to circulate?

It's called "mud-slinging", one of the many tools of propaganda. You don't need to have actual proof in order to start - people can believe anything when it comes from a seemingly-authoritative source. They would have had to resort to something like this in order to get the Terran support they needed at the time.

The UPL was mainly watching the Zerg and the Protoss before converting into the UED, and was surprised by things like the Psi Disruptor, so they don't know everything about what the Terrans are doing.

And yet they knew enough about Mengsk and the Dominion to target him first and were so determined that they spent the majority of the the campaign shown in BW chasing him.....

Offered, or took?

The Dominion in Sc2 looks much better off than it ever did, so one would naturally lean toward it being offered. It would have taken longer than 4 years for Mengsk to retake and put himself back in a position of total power over all Terrans and build the Dominion to the heights we see it at in Sc2 if we are to take the blows he took in BW as having any sort of consequence whatseover. Course, it'd be easier to say it was neither offered or taken but that Mengsk never lost anything to at all to begin with/that BW was a total waste of time. Either way, it's not a pretty picture whichever way you look at it.

So, even if the Dominion is the "strongest" power in the sector, it still isn't as strong as they were in SC1.

It's hard to gauge "strength" when the Dominion can hold off the Zerg in WoL/HotS for a portracted amount of time despite having only about half of it's fleet left and no support from other Terran factions like the KMC when compared to losing to the UED in BW whilst having a larger fleet then (at the least, more than the "half fleet" he would've had in Sc2) and the support of other Terran factions like the KMC.

[Shadow Archon]

So? Mengsk more or less only had control for a time that was not much longer than the UED as well.

Uh, Arcturus had control of Korhal decisively for three straight campaigns. About thirty-five levels or so. The UED had it for only seven levels. Assuming a general length of time goes by in each campaign, the UED had control of Korhal for 1/5 the time Arcturus did.

Not only that, he was also a public figure for much longer, ever since the Sons of Korhal was formed.

He formed the Dominion, not just because of a power vacuum, but by sheer charisma. A lot of people followed Mengsk because they wanted to.

The UED took hold of power out of military conquest, and there big move to show who's boss, the execution of Mengsk, didn't go through. Mengsk still had a not insignificant amount of his military left to fight the UED and to take control after the UED was permanantly crippled.

Mengsk was able to have last lasting control over the remaining Terrans by decapitating the head that was Confederacy and the UED did exactly that to Mengsk in BW. What makes him more special than the UED that he can bounce back and stick around controlling the majority of the Terrans and not the UED? Or for that matter, the Confereate remnants making a comeback?

The leadership of both the UED and the Confederates being dead, and the Dominion's figure-head not?

The Dominion conquering Korhal back the very next campaign after the UED took it.

So, no, the UED had no lasting control after Brood War since the capital of the Dominion was retaken.

It's called "mud-slinging", one of the many tools of propaganda. You don't need to have actual proof in order to start - people can believe anything when it comes from a seemingly-authoritative source. They would have had to resort to something like this in order to get the Terran support they needed at the time.

"Would have had to" going by what?

Either there's a source that says they used that kind of propaganda, or there isn't. If there isn't, it didn't happen.

You don't get to make up anything that big just to justify whatever discrepancy you think there is. That's just blatant fanfiction.

And yet they knew enough about Mengsk and the Dominion to target him first and were so determined that they spent the majority of the the campaign shown in BW chasing him.....

You mean, something they could have learned by just watching this?



Wow, big shocker. The military government of a new faction wants to dethrone an emperor, and actually get a hold of him to puplically execute him to show who's boss.

There isn't any reasoning here that requires them to be omniscient and know what crimes Mengsk did when the whole sector is widely oblivious to it.

The Dominion in Sc2 looks much better off than it ever did, so one would naturally lean toward it being offered.

There's some kind of cognitive dissonance here.

I never leaned towards that, and the Dominion doesn't look better off to me at all.

Shinier graphics, which everyone is getting, doesn't prove much beyond a touch-up for the universe.

Must we be reminded that the setting, originally in Starcraft and Brood War that had only 13 Terran worlds in total, has now jumped into dozens/possibly hundreds? Along with billions of Terrans?

The setting's been retconned to be bigger. So, seeing the Dominion have many planets more, along with a military build-up, and comparing it back in Brood War when there was only just 13, and Dylar was like the only bastion of the Dominion fleet, is of course going to cause some problems.

What we know is, that overall, the Dominion in SC1 was the combined might of all the Terran colonies.

Now, its split into three powers.

That tells me, that it has definitely declined greatly, and even in Starcraft 2, hasn't reclaimed its former status.

It would have taken longer than 4 years for Mengsk to retake and put himself back in a position of total power over all Terrans and build the Dominion to the heights we see it at in Sc2 if we are to take the blows he took in BW as having any sort of consequence whatseover.

First, of all, what heights? Places like New Folsom was built by the Confederates, not the Dominion. That was the big shiny military installation of doom in SC2.

Second, BW had the consequence of making Mengsk lose complete dominance over the entire Terran sector. That's big.

Course, it'd be easier to say it was neither offered or taken but that Mengsk never lost anything to at all to begin with/that BW was a total waste of time. Either way, it's not a pretty picture whichever way you look at it.

That's just cynicism and a snide remark from someone who doesn't like SC2 though. Your opinions are just oozing right through that statement that comes off to me as if you are trying to state it as objective fact.

Brood War had consequences, just not as big as the ones you thought were going to happen.

It's hard to gauge "strength" when the Dominion can hold off the Zerg in WoL/HotS for a portracted amount of time despite having only about half of it's fleet left and no support from other Terran factions like the KMC when compared to losing to the UED in BW whilst having a larger fleet then (at the least, more than the "half fleet" he would've had in Sc2) and the support of other Terran factions like the KMC.

The Dominion never held off the Zerg. The Zerg in Wings was not attacking the Dominion directly, only looking for artifacts.

Within the first attacks, the Zerg killed billions, and Mengsk withdrew the Dominion's fleets to protect the core worlds. That didn't even help given, the Zerg managed to completely conquer a core world with a fraction of the Swarm's forces.

Not to mention, HotS showed a weakened Swarm attack Korhal and win, while a single brood's Leviathans hold off the entire Dominion navy that was left to re-converge on Korhal.

[Turalyon]

Uh, Arcturus had control of Korhal decisively for three straight campaigns. About thirty-five levels or so. The UED had it for only seven levels. Assuming a general length of time goes by in each campaign, the UED had control of Korhal for 1/5 the time Arcturus did.

All of which amounts to Mengsk only being in control for about a year or so. Hardly enough time for him to be so entrenched that he is totally un-removable from a position of power whatsoever.

Not only that, he was also a public figure for much longer, ever since the Sons of Korhal was formed.

Yes, but under a negative light. He was branded a terrorist by the Confederates afterall.

He formed the Dominion, not just because of a power vacuum, but by sheer charisma. A lot of people followed Mengsk because they wanted to.

I didn't think it was his charisma - I thunk it was his manipulation of the general fear amongst the remaining Terran populace after the Confederate powerbase was destroyed by aliens that helped him form the Dominion.

"Would have had to" going by what?

The UED don't have much of a force to begin with when they invade. It's why they target Mengsk first, because they can then leverage the existing Terran resources (by usurping him) to help them further the real mission of subduing the aliens. How else are they going to do that if not by using some propaganda (at the least, mind you) to rally the the Terrans to their cause?

Either there's a source that says they used that kind of propaganda, or there isn't. If there isn't, it didn't happen.

You don't get to make up anything that big just to justify whatever discrepancy you think there is. That's just blatant fanfiction.

That victory cinematic at the the of the UED's campaign doesn't strike you as propaganda? Also what's wrong with "making up anything to justify whatever discrepancy you think there is"? Afterall, you claim that that there's evidence of a specific kind of FTL communication system when all you have is nothing but vague inferences in that other thread and then go ahead and jump down my throat for making a hypothetical inference here? Jeez, I at least am willing to acknowledge that my inferences are hypothetical and are therefore perhaps wrong!

There isn't any reasoning here that requires them to be omniscient and know what crimes Mengsk did when the whole sector is widely oblivious to it.

Why not? The UED know that an Overmind exists - which is knowledge that not even Mengsk knew, let alone the general public, about at the time. It can't be that hard for them find some stuff on Mengsk - especially when Mengsk is Terran and that the UED were spying through the current K-sector Terran hardware since they first landed.

There's some kind of cognitive dissonance here.

Must we be reminded that the setting, originally in Starcraft and Brood War that had only 13 Terran worlds in total, has now jumped into dozens/possibly hundreds? Along with billions of Terrans?

The setting's been retconned to be bigger. So, seeing the Dominion have many planets more, along with a military build-up, and comparing it back in Brood War when there was only just 13, and Dylar was like the only bastion of the Dominion fleet, is of course going to cause some problems.

Nail on the head there.

What we know is, that overall, the Dominion in SC1 was the combined might of all the Terran colonies.

Now, its split into three powers.

Funny, I never got the feeling the Terrans in Sc2 were split. To me, it seemed like it was just the Dominion representing all the Terrans at that time.

First, of all, what heights?

It's that cognitive dissonance you mentioned before with the Terran's being retconned into being larger than what they originally were.

Second, BW had the consequence of making Mengsk lose complete dominance over the entire Terran sector. That's big.

That's the thing. Some people think that BW had no real lasting consequences - Mengsk's losing complete dominance being one of the things that was a consequence nullified within BW itself by the recovery he's shown to have in Omega.

That's just cynicism and a snide remark from someone who doesn't like SC2 though. Your opinions are just oozing right through that statement that comes off to me as if you are trying to state it as objective fact.

Brood War had consequences, just not as big as the ones you thought were going to happen.

A dislike of BW more like. Besides, my dislike of Sc2 has nothing to do with that statement. That statement you are responding to is actually a viewpoint that I've adopted from FanaticTemplar (one who dislikes BW but likes WoL) to illustrate and provide perspective. It is actually easier to think that Mengsk suffered no lasting consequence at all in BW because it gels better with the setup of Mengsk's status in WoL. The rationale for that opinion being: why stick with a discrepancy and difficult questions when there's a far simpler answer? However, I actually don't subscribe to that notion - I would prefer that BW had some sort of consequence in regards to what the UED did to Mengsk. FT and I have been at loggerheads over this issue in a thread that went to more than 20 pages!

The Dominion never held off the Zerg. The Zerg in Wings was not attacking the Dominion directly, only looking for artifacts.

Within the first attacks, the Zerg killed billions, and Mengsk withdrew the Dominion's fleets to protect the core worlds. That didn't even help given, the Zerg managed to completely conquer a core world with a fraction of the Swarm's forces.

If it was so easy to conquer a core-world and Kerrigan suspected the Dominion of holding/knowing about the artifacts, why didn't she just attack the core-worlds first if success was so easily assured in any case? The only reasons I can think of is that it must be that Kerrigan is either stupid/inept in her strategy for some reason or that the Dominion put up enough of a defence to deter/hold off the Zerg until they were inadvertently saved by Raynor's actions on Char. Which do you prefer?

Not to mention, HotS showed a weakened Swarm attack Korhal and win, while a single brood's Leviathans hold off the entire Dominion navy that was left to re-converge on Korhal.

The Swarm is not weakened by the time they attack Korhal in HotS. Kerrigan had been boosted by untold levels of power by being re-infested by that Zerus spawning pool and thereby fully regaining control over all the Zerg as well. Heck, the Dominion is quite powerful in HotS in that they could have held of the Zerg indefinitely with their Psi Destroyer had Kerrigan not got some allies on Zerus and that's got nothing to do with their fleet at all.

[Shadow Archon]

All of which amounts to Mengsk only being in control for about a year or so. Hardly enough time for him to be so entrenched that he is totally un-removable from a position of power whatsoever.

Right.

But the UED only had Korhal for 1/5 of that time, before Mengsk came back in, and reclaimed Korhal.

So, he regained his position of power in Brood War itself.

Yes, but under a negative light. He was branded a terrorist by the Confederates afterall.

Yes.

He spin-doctored that, not sure to what ability, but the point being here, Mengsk was a face that people recognized.

The UED, who wasn't in power for any considerable amount of time as Mengsk was, have no public face.

I didn't think it was his charisma - I thunk it was his manipulation of the general fear amongst the remaining Terran populace after the Confederate powerbase was destroyed by aliens that helped him form the Dominion.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The UED don't have much of a force to begin with when they invade. It's why they target Mengsk first, because they can then leverage the existing Terran resources (by usurping him) to help them further the real mission of subduing the aliens. How else are they going to do that if not by using some propaganda (at the least, mind you) to rally the the Terrans to their cause?

By executing Arcturus publicly and send that video to all the other colonies.

That failed.

DUGALLE
So, the elusive Arcturus Mengsk at last. I was hoping to speak with you before we finished our business here. I am Admiral Gerard DuGalle, and I must commend you, Sir, for holding back our advance for as long as you have. You are indeed a worthy opponent.

MENGSK
My thanks to you, Sir. But you must know that your victory here means little to me. It might have taken me awhile, but I did over- throw the Confederacy. I'll overthrow your rule as well.

DUGALLE
That seems unlikely, Sir, seeing as how you'll be publicly executed along with the rest of your ranking officers.

MENGSK
You wouldn't dare!

DUGALLE
Hah! The man who crowns himself 'Emperor' speaks to me of daring? You have far outlived your reputation citizen Mengsk. Captain, prepare to take the Emperor into custody.

RAYNOR
You'll have to postpone those plans, gentlemen.

ADJUTANT
Sir, the rebel command ship, Hyperion, has just entered our sensor range. It is accompanied by a small Protoss fleet.

DUGALLE
What? Who are these intruders!

MENGSK
Jim Raynor... What the hell are you doing here?!

RAYNOR
I'm pullin' your ass out've the fire, Arcturus. So shut up and sit tight. Make no mistake about it; we've got us a serious score to settle, but right now a mutual acquaintance of ours wants you alive. Prepare your ships for dimensional recall.

DUGALLE
This is intolerable! They're escaping right out from under us! Track them! Track them!

That victory cinematic at the the of the UED's campaign doesn't strike you as propaganda?

I never said that.

It just doesn't speak at all about the Dominion, and seems tailored for the citizens of Earth back home.

Also what's wrong with "making up anything to justify whatever discrepancy you think there is"?

Because it's just making up shit.

Afterall, you claim that that there's evidence of a specific kind of FTL communication system when all you have is nothing but vague inferences

Really?

If you want to debate that, go to this thread.

It isn't vague inferences.

It's direct evidence. If you can see something in real time light minutes away, you are doing it via an FTL medium.

Hell, in Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk spoke to Kerrigan from Korhal to Zerus, in real time.

Korhal is on the galactic rim. Zerus is near the galactic center. That's a signal being broadcasted across tens of thousands of light years, instantly. It has to be FTL.

In Brood War, the Psi Disruptor on Braxis can send its signals in real time to Char, light years away.

in that other thread and then go ahead and jump down my throat for making a hypothetical inference here? Jeez, I at least am willing to acknowledge that my inferences are hypothetical and are therefore perhaps wrong!

So, you aren't claiming it as a fact?

Okay.

I'm just going to say, nothing they do suggests they used propaganda in that manner. If the propaganda campaign never happened, then, well, there's Gradius's answer right there.

Why not? The UED know that an Overmind exists - which is knowledge that not even Mengsk knew, let alone the general public, about at the time.

Kind of hard to miss a giant organic brain mountain when you can spy on certain worlds light years away. That's entirely different from learning the specific nuance that "Mengsk used Psi Emitters."

They didn't know the Confederacy built a Psi Disruptor, so again, they aren't omniscient.

Can you prove they knew about Mengsk's Emitters or not?

It can't be that hard for them find some stuff on Mengsk - especially when Mengsk is Terran and that the UED were spying through the current K-sector Terran hardware since they first landed.

They were still surprised by the Psi-Disruptor, and were focusing mainly on the Protoss and the Zerg as threats.

Heck, the Confederacy knew about the Zerg since the 2480s, while the UED only knew about them in the relatively modern day.

So, no, they aren't omniscient.

What knowledge you propose they have, you would have to prove they actually have it.

From what we know, they didn't act on it at all anyways.

Funny, I never got the feeling the Terrans in Sc2 were split. To me, it seemed like it was just the Dominion representing all the Terrans at that time.

The EU is very explicit that the KMC and the Umoja Protectorate are no longer members of the Dominion.

HotS backs this up with the Protectorate...er...protecting Valerian, Kerrigan, etc. The KMC pops up as a separate power on the website IIRC too.

That's the thing. Some people think that BW had no real lasting consequences - Mengsk's losing complete dominance being one of the things that was a consequence nullified within BW itself by the recovery he's shown to have in Omega.

I would argue that he did loss power in comparison to what he used to have, and has now to rely on military dictatorship to keep the Dominion together, compared back to SC1 where on the greater whole, his hold on the sector was much more absolute and not as shaky.

The whole "Let's butcher my civilians for not cooperating" only pops up after Brood War afterall.

A dislike of BW more like. Besides, my dislike of Sc2 has nothing to do with that statement. That statement you are responding to is actually a viewpoint that I've adopted from FanaticTemplar (one who dislikes BW but likes WoL) to illustrate and provide perspective. It is actually easier to think that Mengsk suffered no lasting consequence at all in BW because it gels better with the setup of Mengsk's status in WoL. The rationale for that opinion being: why stick with a discrepancy and difficult questions when there's a far simpler answer? However, I actually don't subscribe to that notion - I would prefer that BW had some sort of consequence in regards to what the UED did to Mengsk. FT and I have been at loggerheads over this issue in a thread that went to more than 20 pages!

Ah, well, I like both.

I've already rationalized what the consequences were in my own head-canon.

If it was so easy to conquer a core-world and Kerrigan suspected the Dominion of holding/knowing about the artifacts, why didn't she just attack the core-worlds first if success was so easily assured in any case?

Because she was going after Artifacts as a first priority, and that's what led her to Tyrador.

Narud was directly telling Raynor where to go, because he knew where all the artifacts were, probably because he placed them there, and had the Tal'Darim as guard dogs. Narud kept that knowledge on Tyrador (likely in a way he could explain why his human counterpart has that knowledge)

The reason she goes after Tyrador explicitly, is to get the knowledge of where the rest of the artifacts are, and the conquest was the easy part. In that level, if Kerrigan found out where the rest of the artifacts are, it's an instant game over. Probably because Kerrigan, knowing actually where the pieces are, can get there faster and with more forces than Raynor can deal with.

The only reasons I can think of is that it must be that Kerrigan is either stupid/inept in her strategy for some reason or that the Dominion put up enough of a defence to deter/hold off the Zerg until they were inadvertently saved by Raynor's actions on Char. Which do you prefer?

Neither.

Third option above.

The Swarm is not weakened by the time they attack Korhal in HotS. Kerrigan had been boosted by untold levels of power by being re-infested by that Zerus spawning pool and thereby fully regaining control over all the Zerg as well.

Eh, a majority of the Zerg died in space.

Kerrigan: There used to be billions of zerg here. What happened?

Izsha: You dispersed the Swarm to search for the parts of a xel'naga artifact. But when the terrans came here with that same artifact, you recalled the nearest broods to defend you.

Kerrigan:I see. But what of the broods that were still out in deep space?

Izsha: They went feral. They attacked each other. They died by the millions.

Kerrigan: That will not happen again.

Heck, the Dominion is quite powerful in HotS in that they could have held of the Zerg indefinitely with their Psi Destroyer had Kerrigan not got some allies on Zerus and that's got nothing to do with their fleet at all.

That's just a WMD based on the Psi Disruptor though. Sure, the Primal Zerg helped loads with that, but, we already know in Brood War, if you have one of those, Kerrigan is rather helpless without some force to get pass that.

Raynor's Raiders in SC1. Or the Primal Zerg in SC2.

In a direct fight, the Zerg can just crush who they fight.



That's why 9 of 13 Terran worlds in Starcraft 1 were in ruins. In SC2 terms, that would be 9 of 13 Terran core worlds.