Dominion Censorship

[Turalyon]

Mengsk would have believed the infestation left its mark, but you have to remember she had been his 2nd in command in the SoK since 2491. For 9 years BEFORE Raynor joined, they had fought against the Confederacy, you'd think they'd understand each other's tactics to some level.

Not really. Mengsk was genuinely surprised by Kerrigan in BW when she revealed that her "help" was just part of a revenge plan. Goes to show how much Mengsk really knows about how she thinks...

If that was the case, it would explain why blowing the Moros wouldn't work.

He doesn't know that until he tries it... which he didn't. Besides, it would've had the side effect of killing Raynor thereby preventing his assistance on the Korhal assault. Raynor was so important that if he had not been there in that final encounter, Mengsk would've killed Kerrigan with that artifact.

There's nothing to say that the artifact needed charging nor that Kerrigan would've been any quicker in her assault against Korhal had Raynor been killed (one can just as easily say that with Raynor's assistance, her attack on Korhal was expedited as well). If Mengsk wanted everything in Kerrigan's life crumble, he would have actually killed Raynor for real when he made that announcement at the start of HotS and then pretended he was still alive to screw with her on the Moros.

And THAT is why I continue to believe Raynor would have understood to at least SOME extent of Kerrigan's actions in ordering the Dominion industrial worlds destroyed. The two of them both feel that the Dominion people are nothing but a bunch of spineless morons, too scared to take any action. In reality it's likely that the Dominion was a very brutally policed regime, and the consequences are draconian (just like Hitler's regime).

I don't get what this has to do with what we were discussing: that Mengsk was always untouchable and that he didn't have to learn anything from Media Blitz.

[Telenil]

Not really. Mengsk was genuinely surprised by Kerrigan in BW when she revealed that her "help" was just part of a revenge plan. Goes to show how much Mengsk really knows about how she thinks...

Well, he sounds surprised during the True Colors dialog, but he was the one who distrusted Kerrigan the most during an earlier briefing. All three had doubts to a degree, but Arcturus makes it clear he wouldn't have allied with her if he had an other choice.

[Turalyon]

Well, he sounds surprised during the True Colors dialog, but he was the one who distrusted Kerrigan the most during an earlier briefing. All three had doubts to a degree, but Arcturus makes it clear he wouldn't have allied with her if he had an other choice.

All of which would have factored into Mengsk NOT being surprised when Kerrigan owned up to backstabbing him. But he WAS surprised, thereby making him seem either naive or stupid. Either way, he knows nothing about how Kerrigan thinks.

[RetlocLive]

It was probably just asking for it due to the subject matter at hand, but I'm glad to see this thread turn into yet another debate as to whether the Dominion's return to power from the end of Brood War, to the start of WoL, was legitimate. (No, it really wasn't)

But I get the defense people have come up with that if you can somehow bend your disbelief enough, that all those military defeats, even the ones throughout Starcraft 2, are all consistent to the idea that none of them actually posed any threat to Arcturus' rule, that there actually is no problem here...but I just can't bend it. I still felt like, having played through Brood War a plethora of times, that I was weakening the Dominion little-by-little as the missions went along. When Brood War ended, I had felt like the Dominion was devastated, and that Arcturus was screwed in more ways than one, and would have had to possibly work his way up again. Ya...I don't think my suspension of disbelief is changing anytime soon.

[ragnarok]

Not really. Mengsk was genuinely surprised by Kerrigan in BW when she revealed that her "help" was just part of a revenge plan. Goes to show how much Mengsk really knows about how she thinks...

That was his arrogance in being emperor and everything.

There's nothing to say that the artifact needed charging nor that Kerrigan would've been any quicker in her assault against Korhal had Raynor been killed (one can just as easily say that with Raynor's assistance, her attack on Korhal was expedited as well). If Mengsk wanted everything in Kerrigan's life crumble, he would have actually killed Raynor for real when he made that announcement at the start of HotS and then pretended he was still alive to screw with her on the Moros.

Kerrigan's actions would have been quicker on the Korhal invasion if Raynor had been killed. She only gave in to Valerian's request for Raynor's sake, even if she openly admitted to Valerian that he's not like his father.

[Hawki]

Pretty much. You guys keep arguing that the people are too stupid to pick anyone else to rule them since Mengsk is the only one with ambition in the SC universe, but it's a hard pill to swallow when apparently so many people are supposed to know about his crimes.

Ah, yes. "You guys." The royal you, used without any quotes or citations. And the entire statement is bullshit, because let's see who else is taking power in the sector, or in an attempt to take power:

-Geh Mah Sakai
-Jorgensen
-Jackson Hauler
-Ariel Hanson (independent colony)
-Bountiful (declared independence)

If you think that every terran in the sector follows Mengsk or even one of the "big three," you haven't been paying attention.

So why is Media Blitz such a huge deal? You could say "they've finally shown some real evidence" but Liberty has evidence too that's not just an easily faked recording.

Evidence that it's easily faked? And don't say "we can do X in reality," reality has no bearing on something set in the future. I've seen this argument pop up so many times it's beginning to lose its humour.

"Scientists and military insiders have long speculated that the enigmatic alien is, in fact, an infested human.

Kate
That's right Donny. Is it possible that the leader of the zerg has a human heart?"

Fair enough.

Why doesn't that logic apply to literally anyone else in the setting?'' Apparently Mengsk is the only one capable of using scapegoats. A semi-competent politician would have used Mengsk himself as a scapegoat given that many people already know about his crimes.

So apparently Jorgensen never directed blame away from the UP for the Odin debacle. And the statement is academic. Mengsk being demonized by other political leaders...well, to that I say "no shit," and "so what?" Of couse he's going to be demonized.

The only excuse anyone would have to still want Mengsk in power is "the writers don't want to introduce new characters".

So what's Valerian then, chopped liver? The statement is bogus unless it's predicated on the belief that the writers are lying about why he was developed Valerian the way they did, in which case I can only you you're entitled to your viewpoint. Valerian works as a character in part because he gets to stand in contrast with his father.

From the WoL intro: It is now four years later. "Kerrigan and the zerg have remained ominously silent. Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector."

Mengsk isn't just "vying for power", he's winning as if BW never happened.

Ah yes. A quote that proves nothing bar that the Dominion's grown in power and extended its influence. Not sure how that conveys it's "winning." Not when we've seen the KMC and UP vie for influence. Not when the very first thing we see at the start of the game is a rebellion. Not when said rebellion is one of many that's been going on since BW. Not when one of said rebellions was an internal insurgency. Not when the zerg could have curb-stomped the Dominion if that was their intent. No of course, the Dominion really is this all powerful body that's taken over the sector!

These arguments were old back in 2010. They don't even stand up for humour now.

If multiple crippling military defeats aren't a mandate then I don't know what is. A universe where "anything can happen" is a crappy sloppily-put-together universe.

I'll spare you a lecture on how moronic the second statement is (hint: you're thinking of lore by design as being the same as worldbuilding - it's not, it's just a potential method of it), and to the first, I point you back to the Animal Farm analogy.

You'll notice that the protoss have done jack-all for two games and haven't come close to rebuilding their "glorious civilization".

And there we have it, the protoss! Gee, I never thought I'd see this argument again.

Sigh...

-I assume you mean by "the protoss doing jack shit" is a reference to the Protoss Protectorate. To which, true - the PP has done one thing in WoL (Haven) and suffered attacks from Kerrigan in HotS, including foiling their attempt to settle Kaldir. To which I say, "so what?" What's their motivation for doing "jack shit?" They've got no reason to care about what's happening in WoL, it isn't until Kaldir that they have a reason to care, and you'll forgive me for not having a particular desire to see that resolved in HotS when it's mostly academic to Kerrigan's story (she cares about Mengsk, not the protoss, any engagement with the PP in HotS is a means to an end, not an end in itself).

-And on the above point, why is this even an issue? In SC1, the Dominion only existed beyond RY to be cannon fodder and to fulfil an "enemy requirement." In BW, the protoss barely factored in outside their own episode, and only did so when allied with terran forces bar Artanis's strike at the end. The PP are barely in WoL because from both a plot and factional standpoint, there's no reason for them to be.

Mengsk on the other hand has nearly taken over the terran sector,

Bullshit.

invaded Char,

An invasion that only worked because of the artefact. If you think it could have succeeded conventionally, I can only say "here's some money - I can claim a tax deduction for reasons of charity."

and bounced back as if BW never happened.

See above.

That's why we're complaining about him, and not the protoss.

Ah yes, the royal we. And don't say "we're not complaining about the protoss," you've complained about the protoss every chance you get (again, see above).

[quote=Gradius]That what, characters plan to rebuild their civilizations? That's a motivation, not a fact. When you look at Mengsk's epilogue, about how he's beaten and crippled and return to Korhal to lick his wounds and merely "plan" reconstruction (quite different than actually accomplishing it), you'll notice the epilogue writers are making it sound far less likely than the protoss rebuilding who merely "returned to Shakuras to rebuild".

Pretty much. You guys keep arguing that the people are too stupid to pick anyone else to rule them since Mengsk is the only one with ambition in the SC universe, but it's a hard pill to swallow when apparently so many people are supposed to know about his crimes.

Ah, yes. "You guys." The royal you, used without any quotes or citations. And the entire statement is bullshit, because let's see who else is taking power in the sector, or in an attempt to take power:

-Geh Mah Sakai
-Jorgensen
-Jackson Hauler
-Ariel Hanson (independent colony)
-Bountiful (declared independence)

If you think that every terran in the sector follows Mengsk or even one of the "big three," you haven't been paying attention.

So why is Media Blitz such a huge deal? You could say "they've finally shown some real evidence" but Liberty has evidence too that's not just an easily faked recording.

Evidence that it's easily faked? And don't say "we can do X in reality," reality has no bearing on something set in the future. I've seen this argument pop up so many times it's beginning to lose its humour.

"Scientists and military insiders have long speculated that the enigmatic alien is, in fact, an infested human.

Kate
That's right Donny. Is it possible that the leader of the zerg has a human heart?"

Fair enough.

Why doesn't that logic apply to literally anyone else in the setting?'' Apparently Mengsk is the only one capable of using scapegoats. A semi-competent politician would have used Mengsk himself as a scapegoat given that many people already know about his crimes.

So apparently Jorgensen never directed blame away from the UP for the Odin debacle. And the statement is academic. Mengsk being demonized by other political leaders...well, to that I say "no shit," and "so what?" Of couse he's going to be demonized.

The only excuse anyone would have to still want Mengsk in power is "the writers don't want to introduce new characters".

So what's Valerian then, chopped liver? The statement is bogus unless it's predicated on the belief that the writers are lying about why he was developed Valerian the way they did, in which case I can only you you're entitled to your viewpoint. Valerian works as a character in part because he gets to stand in contrast with his father.

From the WoL intro: It is now four years later. "Kerrigan and the zerg have remained ominously silent. Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector."

Mengsk isn't just "vying for power", he's winning as if BW never happened.

Ah yes. A quote that proves nothing bar that the Dominion's grown in power and extended its influence. Not sure how that conveys it's "winning." Not when we've seen the KMC and UP vie for influence. Not when the very first thing we see at the start of the game is a rebellion. Not when said rebellion is one of many that's been going on since BW. Not when one of said rebellions was an internal insurgency. Not when the zerg could have curb-stomped the Dominion if that was their intent. No of course, the Dominion really is this all powerful body that's taken over the sector!

These arguments were old back in 2010. They don't even stand up for humour now.

If multiple crippling military defeats aren't a mandate then I don't know what is. A universe where "anything can happen" is a crappy sloppily-put-together universe.

I'll spare you a lecture on how moronic the second statement is (hint: you're thinking of lore by design as being the same as worldbuilding - it's not, it's just a potential method of it), and to the first, I point you back to the Animal Farm analogy.

You'll notice that the protoss have done jack-all for two games and haven't come close to rebuilding their "glorious civilization".

And there we have it, the protoss! Gee, I never thought I'd see this argument again.

Sigh...

-I assume you mean by "the protoss doing jack shit" is a reference to the Protoss Protectorate. To which, true - the PP has done one thing in WoL (Haven) and suffered attacks from Kerrigan in HotS, including foiling their attempt to settle Kaldir. To which I say, "so what?" What's their motivation for doing "jack shit?" They've got no reason to care about what's happening in WoL, it isn't until Kaldir that they have a reason to care, and you'll forgive me for not having a particular desire to see that resolved in HotS when it's mostly academic to Kerrigan's story (she cares about Mengsk, not the protoss, any engagement with the PP in HotS is a means to an end, not an end in itself).

-And on the above point, why is this even an issue? In SC1, the Dominion only existed beyond RY to be cannon fodder and to fulfil an "enemy requirement." In BW, the protoss barely factored in outside their own episode, and only did so when allied with terran forces bar Artanis's strike at the end. The PP are barely in WoL because from both a plot and factional standpoint, there's no reason for them to be.

Mengsk on the other hand has nearly taken over the terran sector,

Bullshit.

invaded Char,

An invasion that only worked because of the artefact. If you think it could have succeeded conventionally, I can only say "here's some money - I can claim a tax deduction for reasons of charity."

and bounced back as if BW never happened.

See above.

That's why we're complaining about him, and not the protoss.

Ah yes, the royal we. And don't say "we're not complaining about the protoss," you've complained about the protoss every chance you get (again, see above).

[quote=Gradius]That what, characters plan to rebuild their civilizations? That's a motivation, not a fact. When you look at Mengsk's epilogue, about how he's beaten and crippled and return to Korhal to lick his wounds and merely "plan" reconstruction (quite different than actually accomplishing it), you'll notice the epilogue writers are making it sound far less likely than the protoss rebuilding who merely "returned to Shakuras to rebuild".

With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled, Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his Terran Dominion...

Artanis and the Protoss survivors returned to Shakuras to begin rebuilding their once glorious civilization...

They seem to be on equal levels of plot/motivation to me.

The UED lost once. Mengsk lost like 3 times. The UED controlled all of his colonies. Why Mengsk and not them?

The UED loses every time post-Episode V.

The only evidence of UED presence on colonies is Braxis and Korhal. There is no evidence of any other control bar assumed proxy.

The UED's force is smaller, and confirmed to have been wiped out, whereas Kerrigan at least let Mengsk escape. They don't have the manpower or leadership, and people have every reason to hate them.

So clamping down on the sector and taking all the terran planets to rule themselves as per their mission leaves them "in no position to form their own political body"? But Mengsk, after getting deposed, having his power-base explicitly broken by Kerrigan, going on the run, having his crimes potentially exposed as discussed here, and then indebting himself to scrounge up a fleet which he loses anyway, is in a great position to form his own political body after the failure and collapse of his fledgling government?

As remnants, no, as per my point. Also, Mengsk still has an empire to go back to. The indebtment claim is demonstrably false as I pointed out earlier. Mengsk has a logical powerbase to rebuild from, the UED does not.

So they don't want to be ruled by the UED, but they're definitely in love with the idea of getting manhandled by Mengsk again. :P

There's no evidence of manhandling pre-BW.

It was probably just asking for it due to the subject matter at hand, but I'm glad to see this thread turn into yet another debate as to whether the Dominion's return to power from the end of Brood War, to the start of WoL, was legitimate. (No, it really wasn't)

Yes, it really was. And no, I'm not glad this thread turned into this moronic argument again that was old years ago.

But I get the defense people have come up with that if you can somehow bend your disbelief enough, that all those military defeats, even the ones throughout Starcraft 2, are all consistent to the idea that none of them actually posed any threat to Arcturus' rule, that there actually is no problem here...but I just can't bend it. I still felt like, having played through Brood War a plethora of times, that I was weakening the Dominion little-by-little as the missions went along. When Brood War ended, I had felt like the Dominion was devastated, and that Arcturus was screwed in more ways than one, and would have had to possibly work his way up again. Ya...I don't think my suspension of disbelief is changing anytime soon.

No. Just no. If you have to claim that those who disagree with you are suspending their disbelief to support your own argument, you're being intellectually dishonest. All I can say is, no, I didn't get the same sense as you did when playing Brood War. BW had me far more interested in its characters than whatever political nonsense may or may not have been going on behind the scenes. And the claim that the Dominion in SC2 is more powerful than in SC1...I'm sorry, like you, I just can't bend it. Not when the UP and KMC are independent and vying for influence. Not when it's facing rebellion from every corner. Not when its military is so weak that the zerg could curbstomp it if they wanted to. Not when they've even faced open insurgency from within. Not when Mengsk has had to become a brutal dictator just to survive. Every indication from BW onwards is that the Dominion has become tyrannical, rotton, barely holding together, collapsing from within, under threat from without, and that Mengsk is ruling the proverbial rotten stump - looks strong from the outside, but ready to fall apart. I don't doubt that you're sincere in your impressions, but for someone who also played BW, SC1, and all that fun stuff back in the day...well, all I can say is that if someone had asked me about a prospective storyline for SC2 before it was released, as in, what I think would happen, all I can say is back then, I'd have expected Mengsk to be in power, but ruling a weakened Dominion. And at the end of the day, SC2 ended up syncing with such an estimate.

[Telenil]

Funnily enough, Hawki's arguments are the polar opposite of those used by FanaticTemplar in the other thread. Back then, Fanatic argued that the Dominion was legitimately strong in Starcraft 2 because he was still strong at the end of Brood War, while Hawki is saying the Dominion was weak in Brood War and has been consistently weak throughout Starcraft 2.

The only evidence of UED presence on colonies is Braxis and Korhal. There is no evidence of any other control bar assumed proxy.

There certainly is.

First, there is Fenix's "the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist", which is definitely not something he would say if the UED had only three planets and merely allied to other powers. Second, the narrative that begins episode VI states: "With the Directorate's powerful Psi Disrupter negating Kerrigan's control over the remaining broods, the UED remains uncontested in its domination of the sector."

That's as definitive as it can get. Arcturus was the ruler of a unified Terran sector (including Moria and Umoja), until the UED ousted him and took control of his Dominion. It is reasonnable to assume some people resented the UED's arrival, but they could not challenge their rule. With makes sense: the Koprulu Sector had been unified for the first time, then a massive fleet hammers the brand new empire into the ground. The Terran didn't have enough military power to argue, even if they had wanted to.

Say what you will about the specifics, the UED was the ruler of the Terran worlds, to the same extent Arcturus had been a few months before.

The UED's force is smaller, and confirmed to have been wiped out, whereas Kerrigan at least let Mengsk escape. They don't have the manpower or leadership, and people have every reason to hate them.

What reasons? What did the UED do that Mengsk didn't?

Not when the UP and KMC are independent and vying for influence. Not when it's facing rebellion from every corner. Not when its military is so weak that the zerg could curbstomp it if they wanted to. Not when they've even faced open insurgency from within. Not when Mengsk has had to become a brutal dictator just to survive. Every indication from BW onwards is that the Dominion has become tyrannical, rotton, barely holding together, collapsing from within, under threat from without, and that Mengsk is ruling the proverbial rotten stump - looks strong from the outside, but ready to fall apart.

Is there any direct quote, in the sense of those I provided in the first part of this post, that the Dominion is in fact rotten and ready to fall? Because I can think of some that state the opposite, from the recap that comes with installing the game "victory against Mengsk seems more distant than ever" (might not be the exact wording) to Raynor's "We've got a long way to go, but maybe we started something here" after Media Blitz. It doesn't sound like the Dominion is on the brink of collapsing.

Similarly, what makes you think the UP and KMC are actually vying for influence? The only thing I can think of is that group of Umojan who secretely hid Kerrigan in their lab - that's something, but even then Valerian arguably seems to be the one in charge. Mengsk then assaults the lab, which for once makes perfect sense, and we don't see any political consequence. IIRC, Mengsk just announces Raynor's death, the news don't say "he was found and killed in a secret staging area manned by Umojan special forces!", much less "the Umojan Protectorate tried to protect the Queen of Blades from rightful retribution!".

Unless I missed something, in which case a quote or link would be appreciated, I'd say there is some truth in Retlo's point. You sort of assume there is a power struggle and that the Dominion is weak, and interpret the events accordingly. But if you look at the actual game, well, it doesn't say or imply that. The only point where WoL or HotS showed any sort of political manoeuvering was when Valerian took the Dominion fleet and recruited Raynor.

[Turalyon]

Funnily enough, Hawki's arguments are the polar opposite of those used by FanaticTemplar in the other thread. Back then, Fanatic argued that the Dominion was legitimately strong in Starcraft 2 because he was still strong at the end of Brood War, while Hawki is saying the Dominion was weak in Brood War and has been consistently weak throughout Starcraft 2.

Eh, I think "strong" and "weak" are the wrong descriptors because it's somewhat relative and requires context/comparison to explain. "Significant" (for "strong") and "insignificant" (for "weak") seems to be a better general fit. Still, even with that clarification it doesn't really support Hawki's position because the Dominion is really the only enduring Terran force of any significance shown in Starcraft since the Confederacy fell.

[Gradius]

Ah, yes. "You guys." The royal you, used without any quotes or citations. And the entire statement is bullshit, because let's see who else is taking power in the sector, or in an attempt to take power:

-Geh Mah Sakai
-Jorgensen
-Jackson Hauler
-Ariel Hanson (independent colony)
-Bountiful (declared independence)

If you think that every terran in the sector follows Mengsk or even one of the "big three," you haven't been paying attention.

Your point?

Evidence that it's easily faked? And don't say "we can do X in reality," reality has no bearing on something set in the future. I've seen this argument pop up so many times it's beginning to lose its humour.

Right, because why should the future have more advanced technology than the present?

So apparently Jorgensen never directed blame away from the UP for the Odin debacle. And the statement is academic. Mengsk being demonized by other political leaders...well, to that I say "no shit," and "so what?" Of couse he's going to be demonized.

So why the hell does he deserve to be in power? For doing something that every other politician is doing?

So what's Valerian then, chopped liver? The statement is bogus unless it's predicated on the belief that the writers are lying about why he was developed Valerian the way they did, in which case I can only you you're entitled to your viewpoint. Valerian works as a character in part because he gets to stand in contrast with his father.

Nice blatant dodge. Valerian owes everything to his father and will take over only "when the time comes of course". There's still no evidence that other leaders have a shred of ambition or desire to rule, and instead simply enjoy being subjugated by Mengsk. That's terrible worldbuilding.

Ah yes. A quote that proves nothing bar that the Dominion's grown in power and extended its influence. Not sure how that conveys it's "winning."

Extending one's influence proves that he's slowly gaining ground. If allowed to continue, he'd eventually dominate the other factions. Obviously, they haven't taken over everything yet, but the fact that they're winning is proof that they're the most powerful faction.

Same way that I can argue the USA can basically do what it wants, yet doesn't technically own other countries. Same way that Mengsk attacked Umoja without any repercussions.

Not when we've seen the KMC and UP vie for influence.

And lose? Yes, very impressive.

Not when the very first thing we see at the start of the game is a rebellion. Not when said rebellion is one of many that's been going on since BW. Not when one of said rebellions was an internal insurgency.

That ends up accomplishing nothing in the long run. Yay! Too bad there were rebellions in SC1 too. What's your point?

Not when the zerg could have curb-stomped the Dominion if that was their intent. No of course, the Dominion really is this all powerful body that's taken over the sector!

The zerg can curb-stomp anybody. That's not proof of anything.

These arguments were old back in 2010. They don't even stand up for humour now.

Don't worry, the idea that "Mengsk is the only character in the universe who can lie and cheat his way to leadership" is still good for plenty of laughs.

To which I say, "so what?" What's their motivation for doing "jack shit?" They've got no reason to care about what's happening in WoL, it isn't until Kaldir that they have a reason to care

Right, why would they care that their arch enemy who can and probably will decide on their extinction at any time (the QoB), is weakened and vulnerable? Why would they care that the broods are feral and broken and that the zerg primary hive (Char) has been decimated? It's not like they want to retake their homeworld or anything, right? Why would they care that their arch enemy is coming back into power? Nope, no reason at all to follow events in the terran sector. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I hope the stupidity of such a question is blindingly obvious by now, and if not, I've got more sarcasm I can offer.

-And on the above point, why is this even an issue? In SC1, the Dominion only existed beyond RY to be cannon fodder and to fulfil an "enemy requirement." In BW, the protoss barely factored in outside their own episode, and only did so when allied with terran forces bar Artanis's strike at the end. The PP are barely in WoL because from both a plot and factional standpoint, there's no reason for them to be.

In BW, they had no time to rebuild. Yet still they fought the UED, the Overmind, launched an attack on Char, etc. Can't be bothered to do that in WoL even with 4 years of respite. The Dominion on the other hand is doing all of that and more.

Just accept the blatant double standard in the argument here and move on. This is getting ridiculous.

Bullshit.

I'm sorry that actual evidence burns SC2 defenders like water on a witch, but the prologue clearly tells you that the Dominion is the most powerful faction.

An invasion that only worked because of the artefact. If you think it could have succeeded conventionally, I can only say "here's some money - I can claim a tax deduction for reasons of charity."

They established a beachhead, and survived long enough to go back into space before the artifact was even assembled. Then they took control of the planet after the broods went feral and began exterminating the zerg.

Obviously it's not the same as winning conventionally, yet still impressive. Thanks for pointing out this obvious fact that nobody here needed clarified.

I'll spare you a lecture on how moronic the second statement is (hint: you're thinking of lore by design as being the same as worldbuilding - it's not, it's just a potential method of it)

Hint: I never mentioned those terms. What the hell are you talking about?

It's a very simple concept. A universe where victories and defeats no longer mean anything is dull and pointless. There is nothing to look forward to because our accomplishments can easily be retconned in the next installment with no rhyme or reason. I mean, if you like that, great, but don't expect others to jump aboard.

Ah yes, the royal we. And don't say "we're not complaining about the protoss," you've complained about the protoss every chance you get (again, see above).

I complain about their total lack of interest, not their military being downgraded as it should be. I'm not saying they should invade Char like the Dominion has (because that's idiotic), I'm saying they should do something.

With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled, Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his Terran Dominion...

Artanis and the Protoss survivors returned to Shakuras to begin rebuilding their once glorious civilization...

They seem to be on equal levels of plot/motivation to me.

It says that they left to go do those things. It doesn't say they've succeeded or will succeed. What else did you expect Mengsk to go do anyway? How is this justification for pretending that BW never happened? -_-

The UED loses every time post-Episode V.

The only evidence of UED presence on colonies is Braxis and Korhal. There is no evidence of any other control bar assumed proxy.

The UED's force is smaller, and confirmed to have been wiped out, whereas Kerrigan at least let Mengsk escape.

Fair enough, though I would argue that if we're comparing the severity and importance of defeats to Mengsk's, only two of those were truly significant (Korhal and Char).

Fact is, even with those losses, the UED still shows up with their last remnants at Omega, just like Mengsk. At that point, they're both screwed, and I don't see any reason why one is more entitled to leadership than the other.

I also never saw the UED as small. At all. The Earth Colonies would be massive at this point, and even Duran says "the tenacity of your fleets will devastate the zerg without need for such a device", which is apparently a believable concept.

They don't have the manpower or leadership, and people have every reason to hate them.

But they love Mengsk, a genocidal maniac who killed billions? And I guess he has plenty of manpower from getting totally wasted during Omega and the rest of the game?

As remnants, no, as per my point. Also, Mengsk still has an empire to go back to. The indebtment claim is demonstrably false as I pointed out earlier. Mengsk has a logical powerbase to rebuild from, the UED does not.

You haven't explained why. They control his colonies. Their remnants were destroyed, his remnants were destroyed. It could have gone either way.

There's no evidence of manhandling pre-BW.

Another great dodge. They were under Mengsk pre-BW.

No. Just no. If you have to claim that those who disagree with you are suspending their disbelief to support your own argument, you're being intellectually dishonest. All I can say is, no, I didn't get the same sense as you did when playing Brood War.

Awesome, where's your evidence that a multitude of crippling military defeats still entitles someone to rule an empire and take over the sector? And don't give me Wings of Liberty as proof that Wings of Liberty made sense.

Bringing up intellectual dishonesty though... thanks for the joke. Looking forward to the part of the debate where you accuse me of being "insulting" or "uncivil" because I'm disagreeing with you.

And the claim that the Dominion in SC2 is more powerful than in SC1...I'm sorry, like you, I just can't bend it.

Yeah, nobody's ever said that. Nice to know that you have a firm understanding of our actual argument after all these pages. -_-

[Hawki]

There certainly is.

First, there is Fenix's "the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist", which is definitely not something he would say if the UED had only three planets and merely allied to other powers. Second, the narrative that begins episode VI states: "With the Directorate's powerful Psi Disrupter negating Kerrigan's control over the remaining broods, the UED remains uncontested in its domination of the sector."

That's as definitive as it can get. Arcturus was the ruler of a unified Terran sector (including Moria and Umoja), until the UED ousted him and took control of his Dominion. It is reasonnable to assume some people resented the UED's arrival, but they could not challenge their rule. With makes sense: the Koprulu Sector had been unified for the first time, then a massive fleet hammers the brand new empire into the ground. The Terran didn't have enough military power to argue, even if they had wanted to.

Say what you will about the specifics, the UED was the ruler of the Terran worlds, to the same extent Arcturus had been a few months before.

Fair enough.

What reasons? What did the UED do that Mengsk didn't?

-Mengsk: Takes power after Confederacy's fall, provides a beacon of hope, unifies the K-sector, provides a strong standing military, gives a sense of security. Up to BW, most terrans have every reason to love Mengsk. The KMC and UP love him for removing the Confederacy, others would love him for coming in and saving the day, etc.

-UED: Launch an unprovoked attack on terran space, occupying and damaging at least two planetary capitals. Said UED comes from Earth, which most terrans have every right to fear (Project Purification), if not outright hate. Even if the UED claims that "we've saved you from the zerg" or "we can protect you from the aliens," these are claims Mengsk already made, and had backed up in theory. Even employing the notion that the UED institutes a WHAM policy, they're at a disadvantage when compared to how Mengsk started out - people have every reason to hate them, and they lose power immediately anyway. Mengsk, whatever he may have lost in BW, has not failed as drastically as the UED in providing an appealing system of rule, provided that they were interested in providing one at all bar "we own you now."

Is there any direct quote, in the sense of those I provided in the first part of this post, that the Dominion is in fact rotten and ready to fall? Because I can think of some that state the opposite, from the recap that comes with installing the game "victory against Mengsk seems more distant than ever" (might not be the exact wording) to Raynor's "We've got a long way to go, but maybe we started something here" after Media Blitz. It doesn't sound like the Dominion is on the brink of collapsing.

Similarly, what makes you think the UP and KMC are actually vying for influence? The only thing I can think of is that group of Umojan who secretely hid Kerrigan in their lab - that's something, but even then Valerian arguably seems to be the one in charge. Mengsk then assaults the lab, which for once makes perfect sense, and we don't see any political consequence. IIRC, Mengsk just announces Raynor's death, the news don't say "he was found and killed in a secret staging area manned by Umojan special forces!", much less "the Umojan Protectorate tried to protect the Queen of Blades from rightful retribution!".

Unless I missed something, in which case a quote or link would be appreciated, I'd say there is some truth in Retlo's point. You sort of assume there is a power struggle and that the Dominion is weak, and interpret the events accordingly. But if you look at the actual game, well, it doesn't say or imply that. The only point where WoL or HotS showed any sort of political manoeuvering was when Valerian took the Dominion fleet and recruited Raynor.

KMC/UP: "While Mengsk’s new dominion’s power has increased and been consolidated these factions are still “relevant groups in the sector and they’re still vying for their own control and resources while Mengsk grows in power.” (see http://sclegacy.com/feature/22-bc07/...aft-lore-panel). We've also seen this in EU material (e.g. Meteor Station, Mar Sara up to WoL itself). As for Raynor, the Raiders are a small force. Chances at victory would be distant against any faction pre-WoL.

Your point?

That other leaders exist, and that they're quite capable of seizing the initiative for independence when the circumstances allow for it.

Right, because why should the future have more advanced technology than the present?

My point - future technology to verify that it's the real thing.

Nice blatant dodge. Valerian owes everything to his father and will take over only "when the time comes of course". There's still no evidence that other leaders have a shred of ambition or desire to rule, and instead simply enjoy being subjugated by Mengsk. That's terrible worldbuilding.

Yes, because the UP and KMC are quite happy being subjugated (hint, they're not even under control), or launching insurgencies (e.g. Hauler), or declaring independence (e.g. Bountiful). You, er, said something about dodging?

Extending one's influence proves that he's slowly gaining ground. If allowed to continue, he'd eventually dominate the other factions. Obviously, they haven't taken over everything yet, but the fact that they're winning is proof that they're the most powerful faction.

That's a hell of an assumption.

Same way that I can argue the USA can basically do what it wants, yet doesn't technically own other countries. Same way that Mengsk attacked Umoja without any repercussions.

As in, the same way the UP was able to infiltrate Simonson without any reprecussions? Attacking a base that doesn't even technically exist, that isn't even on Umoja, that isn't even defended all that well isn't a sign of...well, anything really.

That ends up accomplishing nothing in the long run. Yay! Too bad there were rebellions in SC1 too. What's your point?

Point 1: No rebellion of Mengsk is known of pre-BW bar the CRF (Confederate remnants, not to mention Duran's personal agenda), and Raynor (personal vengeance and access to privy information).

Point 2: We know of worlds such as Bountiful declaring independence as a result of Media Blitz.

Point 3: Mar Sara, pre-zerg, is independent from the Dominion.

Right, why would they care that their arch enemy who can and probably will decide on their extinction at any time (the QoB), is weakened and vulnerable? Why would they care that the broods are feral and broken and that the zerg primary hive (Char) has been decimated? It's not like they want to retake their homeworld or anything, right? Why would they care that their arch enemy is coming back into power? Nope, no reason at all to follow events in the terran sector. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I hope the stupidity of such a question is blindingly obvious by now, and if not, I've got more sarcasm I can offer.

Sigh, and I thought you were the protoss guy.

Point 1: The protoss have never shown any interest in terran affairs. Literally, never. Even SC1 isn't predicated on this, it's from the zerg threat (and being aware of the zerg at all was by chance).

Point 2: This is no longer SC1. The protoss are in no position to uphold the Dae'Uhl, or maintain a presence in the way they once did.

Point 3: The zerg invasion in SC2 has no indication of ever affecting PP territory. Even if they are aware of the invasion (and to be fair, probably are), it has no reason to involve them. It doesn't matter how many terrans die. It doesn't matter how many zerg die, and hey, the more zerg the better. The protoss have nothing to gain by making their presence felt. Even assuming that they're aware of Kerrigan's de-infestation, I think the protoss understand that at the least, most terrans would want to see her dead as well.

Point 4: WoL occurs over three months - one month of fighting, then a battle that lasts a few days AT BEST on Char two months later. So, with the zerg apparently rampaging for once month, going silent, then being severed from control in an instant, I can forgive the protoss for not knowing everything that's going on, not to mention, as stated, they have no reason to care about the zerg unless they become a threat to them.

I know there are outliers - observers for instance. But I'm sorry, I can only say that the PP's presence in SC2 would weaken the story as it played out. It would make it a rehash of SC1 if they tried to play the role of stewards, it would make them seem trigger happy if they tried to attack the zerg at all. As far as WoL goes, the protoss have nothing to gain through involvement. If the zerg wipe out humanity, no-one cares. If humanity somehow wins, great, they didn't have to waste any lives for that to happen. By all indications, the PP has acted as I'd expect them to.

In BW, they had no time to rebuild. Yet still they fought the UED, the Overmind, launched an attack on Char, etc. Can't be bothered to do that in WoL even with 4 years of respite. The Dominion on the other hand is doing all of that and more.

Just accept the blatant double standard in the argument here and move on. This is getting ridiculous.

Double standard. Right. Says the person who miscontrues events to try and prove a point.

-The protoss get the benefit of the Nerazim in BW - they get a power boost. Not to mention a xel'naga temple which scours Shakuras for them. It's a sign of determination, true, but not a sign of military might in of itself.

-The protoss fighting against the UED came off as being quite small. I say this because of Fenix, Raynor, and Mengsk being given outpost duty in Kerrigan's reclamation of Korhal, not to mention that the only reason Fenix and Raynor are there at all is because of the warp gate debacle on Aiur. Everything prior to Char Aleph in regards to the UED comes off as not being representative of the protoss whole, but rather those who happened to know the Raiders.

-WoL, as I explained, the protoss have no reason to join the battle, but observe at best. The Dominion is also a faulty argument because they're not looking for trouble against the zerg.

I'm sorry that actual evidence burns SC2 defenders like water on a witch, but the prologue clearly tells you that the Dominion is the most powerful faction.

It is now four years later. Kerrigan and the zerg have remained ominously silent. Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector.

Raynor and his forces, plagued by low morale and lack of resources, continue their struggle against the Dominion. Victory against Mengsk, however, seems more distant than ever....

Oh, if only I could come down to your level and use the term "SC2 hater." I won't though. But that's the prologue text. You've already made the assumption that this is "clearly" telling us the Dominion is the most powerful faction. Expanding influence? Yes. Most powerful? No indication of the sort.

It's a very simple concept. A universe where victories and defeats no longer mean anything is dull and pointless. There is nothing to look forward to because our accomplishments can easily be retconned in the next installment with no rhyme or reason. I mean, if you like that, great, but don't expect others to jump aboard.

I'm not disputing that claim. What I am disputing is that's become the case. So, what happens in BW?

-The protoss resettle on Shakuras, and are still on Shakuras.

-The UED weakens the Dominion through invasion, and it's yet to recover.

-Kerrigan establishes herself as the sole ruler of the zerg, and remains uncontested in that role as of WoL.

-The UED is destroyed, but remnants remain.

-Dark Origin occurs, and Zeratul is still on the hunt.

So yes. The old "BW never happened!" argument. At this point it's clear you think that SC2 is claiming that the Dominion is THE powerhouse of the K-sector, and even if I were to believe such a thing, I can't claim that BW never happened. That, and lot's of other stuff clearly happened.

I complain about their total lack of interest, not their military being downgraded as it should be. I'm not saying they should invade Char like the Dominion has (because that's idiotic), I'm saying they should do something.

At this point, I can only say I disagree. The Dominion and PP have engaged the zerg a few times in the interbellum period, but never with the explicit intent of getting involved in another war. That the Dominion fights the zerg and the protoss don't in WoL is NOT a sign of one being powerful and the other not. It's a sign that the Dominion happens to be occupying the space where the artifacts are, and pays the price for it. No doubt there's someone ready to call me a cheese eating surrendur monkey, but all I can say is that the PP in WoL (and HotS) is more or less acting the way I'd expect it to. Don't take risks, consolidate your forces, play a defensive role. If Kerrigan's giving you breathing room, keep that breathing room as long as possible. We know that the PP has been working on developing new tech (void ray), reviving old tech (colossus) and has taken some cautionary steps (Aiur, Kaldir). Not a bad job as far as war strategy goes IMO.

t says that they left to go do those things. It doesn't say they've succeeded or will succeed. What else did you expect Mengsk to go do anyway? How is this justification for pretending that BW never happened? -_-

I expected Mengsk to rebuild (which he did), rule a weakened Dominion (which he does), and go on from BW. Which, as I mentioned above, has never been in a place of "never happening." You want to argue the Dominion shouldn't have recovered at all, fine. You want to argue that Mengsk shouldn't have got back into power, fine. But more happened in BW than that, and shock of all shocks, SC2 can't function without it (Shakuras, Zeratul, Kerrigan, etc.)

Fair enough, though I would argue that if we're comparing the severity and importance of defeats to Mengsk's, only two of those were truly significant (Korhal and Char).

Fact is, even with those losses, the UED still shows up with their last remnants at Omega, just like Mengsk. At that point, they're both screwed, and I don't see any reason why one is more entitled to leadership than the other.

I also never saw the UED as small. At all. The Earth Colonies would be massive at this point, and even Duran says "the tenacity of your fleets will devastate the zerg without need for such a device", which is apparently a believable concept.

In all honesty, I'd have said that the Char Aleph strike had a good chance of succeeding. Kill the zerg on the platform, kill Kerrigan, and you've basically won. Course I can't see the UED asserting control at all, but, well, what ya gonna do?

But here's the difference - Mengsk has a powerbase to retreat to. He has a Dominion to claim. He's still in charge of Korhal after all, even if he has no military there. The UED has no logical powerbase. Even under Telenil's point that they likely had forces on other planets, there's no ambiguity that it's wiped out as a whole in BW.

As for the UED proper, course it's not small. I'd even argue that as of HotS, it's the most powerful single faction in the Milky Way. Duran's quote regarding the fleet though, I don't see as indicative. Mind control, DuGalle's pride, even with the psi disruptor they had a hard time on Char (well, I say that because the mission is bloody difficult), so while the UED Fleet is no doubt a force to be reckoned with, I don't see it as being all that powerful in of itself. The entire plan was built on deposing Mengsk, taking control of the zerg, and using said zerg to pacify the protoss. A lot of the plan was built on using resources at hand rather than resources already provided for (e.g. the Dylarian Shipyards).

But they love Mengsk, a genocidal maniac who killed billions? And I guess he has plenty of manpower from getting totally wasted during Omega and the rest of the game?

Don't know he killed millions yet, and again, logical place to rebuild from.

Another great dodge. They were under Mengsk pre-BW.

Willingly, by all indications.

Awesome, where's your evidence that a multitude of crippling military defeats still entitles someone to rule an empire and take over the sector? And don't give me Wings of Liberty as proof that Wings of Liberty made sense.

Bringing up intellectual dishonesty though... thanks for the joke. Looking forward to the part of the debate where you accuse me of being "insulting" or "uncivil" because I'm disagreeing with you.

Says the person who's used terms such as "SC2 defender" as a pejorative, and made mentions of witches and water. Oh yes, these are uncivil terms, but I don't care that they're uncivil. Uncivility is not a counter-argument, it only makes an existing one look weaker.

Anyway, let's look at your prior claim:

You haven't explained why. They control his colonies. Their remnants were destroyed, his remnants were destroyed. It could have gone either way.

Is this it? Can I single on this as the crux of the matter? Because if it is, you've quite craftilly left out some inconvenient facts:

-Fact: Kerrigan let Mengsk retreat, not DuGalle.

-Fact: The Dominion still exists in of itself, with Mengsk still emperor. Even if you argue in name only, he's still a leader with a logical powerbase.

-Fact: The UED has been left without a leader.

-Fact: That said, UED remnants still exist.

So I'm left to ask, why is the assumption being made that the UED has equal right to rule? By last count, Mengsk was still in charge of Korhal. Even if his military was defeated, the ownership never left his hands. The UED was retreating to Earth, so I can only assume that they had no powerbase left. I'd have an easier time swallowing the KMC or UP becoming the dominant power, because they at least have come out of two wars relatively unscathed. I'd still argue that they did do better for it given their sparring with the Dominion, but the UED? Sorry. At this point in time, they have nothing to offer the K-sector either politically or militarily. I have to contest the notion that the ending of BW could have gone either way, because even if you argue that Mengsk's rebuilding is only a sign of intent, it makes it quite clear that the UED Expeditionary Force is gone. Done for. "No ship made it back to Earth," and that they're retreating to Earth in the first place tells me how south their invasion has gone for them.

I have to ask, in all honesty, reading the epilogue text of BW, was "the UED are still gonna be around in the sequel" your thought, or something akin to that? If so, I won't judge, but, well, let's just say I have a hard time entertaining that idea.

- - - Updated - - -

There certainly is.

First, there is Fenix's "the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist", which is definitely not something he would say if the UED had only three planets and merely allied to other powers. Second, the narrative that begins episode VI states: "With the Directorate's powerful Psi Disrupter negating Kerrigan's control over the remaining broods, the UED remains uncontested in its domination of the sector."

That's as definitive as it can get. Arcturus was the ruler of a unified Terran sector (including Moria and Umoja), until the UED ousted him and took control of his Dominion. It is reasonnable to assume some people resented the UED's arrival, but they could not challenge their rule. With makes sense: the Koprulu Sector had been unified for the first time, then a massive fleet hammers the brand new empire into the ground. The Terran didn't have enough military power to argue, even if they had wanted to.

Say what you will about the specifics, the UED was the ruler of the Terran worlds, to the same extent Arcturus had been a few months before.

Fair enough.

What reasons? What did the UED do that Mengsk didn't?

-Mengsk: Takes power after Confederacy's fall, provides a beacon of hope, unifies the K-sector, provides a strong standing military, gives a sense of security. Up to BW, most terrans have every reason to love Mengsk. The KMC and UP love him for removing the Confederacy, others would love him for coming in and saving the day, etc.

-UED: Launch an unprovoked attack on terran space, occupying and damaging at least two planetary capitals. Said UED comes from Earth, which most terrans have every right to fear (Project Purification), if not outright hate. Even if the UED claims that "we've saved you from the zerg" or "we can protect you from the aliens," these are claims Mengsk already made, and had backed up in theory. Even employing the notion that the UED institutes a WHAM policy, they're at a disadvantage when compared to how Mengsk started out - people have every reason to hate them, and they lose power immediately anyway. Mengsk, whatever he may have lost in BW, has not failed as drastically as the UED in providing an appealing system of rule, provided that they were interested in providing one at all bar "we own you now."

Is there any direct quote, in the sense of those I provided in the first part of this post, that the Dominion is in fact rotten and ready to fall? Because I can think of some that state the opposite, from the recap that comes with installing the game "victory against Mengsk seems more distant than ever" (might not be the exact wording) to Raynor's "We've got a long way to go, but maybe we started something here" after Media Blitz. It doesn't sound like the Dominion is on the brink of collapsing.

Similarly, what makes you think the UP and KMC are actually vying for influence? The only thing I can think of is that group of Umojan who secretely hid Kerrigan in their lab - that's something, but even then Valerian arguably seems to be the one in charge. Mengsk then assaults the lab, which for once makes perfect sense, and we don't see any political consequence. IIRC, Mengsk just announces Raynor's death, the news don't say "he was found and killed in a secret staging area manned by Umojan special forces!", much less "the Umojan Protectorate tried to protect the Queen of Blades from rightful retribution!".

Unless I missed something, in which case a quote or link would be appreciated, I'd say there is some truth in Retlo's point. You sort of assume there is a power struggle and that the Dominion is weak, and interpret the events accordingly. But if you look at the actual game, well, it doesn't say or imply that. The only point where WoL or HotS showed any sort of political manoeuvering was when Valerian took the Dominion fleet and recruited Raynor.

KMC/UP: "While Mengsk’s new dominion’s power has increased and been consolidated these factions are still “relevant groups in the sector and they’re still vying for their own control and resources while Mengsk grows in power.” (see http://sclegacy.com/feature/22-bc07/288-blizzcon-2007-starcraft-lore-panel). We've also seen this in EU material (e.g. Meteor Station, Mar Sara up to WoL itself). As for Raynor, the Raiders are a small force. Chances at victory would be distant against any faction pre-WoL.

Your point?

That other leaders exist, and that they're quite capable of seizing the initiative for independence when the circumstances allow for it.

Right, because why should the future have more advanced technology than the present?

My point - future technology to verify that it's the real thing.

Nice blatant dodge. Valerian owes everything to his father and will take over only "when the time comes of course". There's still no evidence that other leaders have a shred of ambition or desire to rule, and instead simply enjoy being subjugated by Mengsk. That's terrible worldbuilding.

Yes, because the UP and KMC are quite happy being subjugated (hint, they're not even under control), or launching insurgencies (e.g. Hauler), or declaring independence (e.g. Bountiful). You, er, said something about dodging?

Extending one's influence proves that he's slowly gaining ground. If allowed to continue, he'd eventually dominate the other factions. Obviously, they haven't taken over everything yet, but the fact that they're winning is proof that they're the most powerful faction.

That's a hell of an assumption.

Same way that I can argue the USA can basically do what it wants, yet doesn't technically own other countries. Same way that Mengsk attacked Umoja without any repercussions.

As in, the same way the UP was able to infiltrate Simonson without any reprecussions? Attacking a base that doesn't even technically exist, that isn't even on Umoja, that isn't even defended all that well isn't a sign of...well, anything really.

That ends up accomplishing nothing in the long run. Yay! Too bad there were rebellions in SC1 too. What's your point?

Point 1: No rebellion of Mengsk is known of pre-BW bar the CRF (Confederate remnants, not to mention Duran's personal agenda), and Raynor (personal vengeance and access to privy information).

Point 2: We know of worlds such as Bountiful declaring independence as a result of Media Blitz.

Point 3: Mar Sara, pre-zerg, is independent from the Dominion.

Right, why would they care that their arch enemy who can and probably will decide on their extinction at any time (the QoB), is weakened and vulnerable? Why would they care that the broods are feral and broken and that the zerg primary hive (Char) has been decimated? It's not like they want to retake their homeworld or anything, right? Why would they care that their arch enemy is coming back into power? Nope, no reason at all to follow events in the terran sector. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I hope the stupidity of such a question is blindingly obvious by now, and if not, I've got more sarcasm I can offer.

Sigh, and I thought you were the protoss guy.

Point 1: The protoss have never shown any interest in terran affairs. Literally, never. Even SC1 isn't predicated on this, it's from the zerg threat (and being aware of the zerg at all was by chance).

Point 2: This is no longer SC1. The protoss are in no position to uphold the Dae'Uhl, or maintain a presence in the way they once did.

Point 3: The zerg invasion in SC2 has no indication of ever affecting PP territory. Even if they are aware of the invasion (and to be fair, probably are), it has no reason to involve them. It doesn't matter how many terrans die. It doesn't matter how many zerg die, and hey, the more zerg the better. The protoss have nothing to gain by making their presence felt. Even assuming that they're aware of Kerrigan's de-infestation, I think the protoss understand that at the least, most terrans would want to see her dead as well.

Point 4: WoL occurs over three months - one month of fighting, then a battle that lasts a few days AT BEST on Char two months later. So, with the zerg apparently rampaging for once month, going silent, then being severed from control in an instant, I can forgive the protoss for not knowing everything that's going on, not to mention, as stated, they have no reason to care about the zerg unless they become a threat to them.

I know there are outliers - observers for instance. But I'm sorry, I can only say that the PP's presence in SC2 would weaken the story as it played out. It would make it a rehash of SC1 if they tried to play the role of stewards, it would make them seem trigger happy if they tried to attack the zerg at all. As far as WoL goes, the protoss have nothing to gain through involvement. If the zerg wipe out humanity, no-one cares. If humanity somehow wins, great, they didn't have to waste any lives for that to happen. By all indications, the PP has acted as I'd expect them to.

In BW, they had no time to rebuild. Yet still they fought the UED, the Overmind, launched an attack on Char, etc. Can't be bothered to do that in WoL even with 4 years of respite. The Dominion on the other hand is doing all of that and more.

Just accept the blatant double standard in the argument here and move on. This is getting ridiculous.

Double standard. Right. Says the person who miscontrues events to try and prove a point.

-The protoss get the benefit of the Nerazim in BW - they get a power boost. Not to mention a xel'naga temple which scours Shakuras for them. It's a sign of determination, true, but not a sign of military might in of itself.

-The protoss fighting against the UED came off as being quite small. I say this because of Fenix, Raynor, and Mengsk being given outpost duty in Kerrigan's reclamation of Korhal, not to mention that the only reason Fenix and Raynor are there at all is because of the warp gate debacle on Aiur. Everything prior to Char Aleph in regards to the UED comes off as not being representative of the protoss whole, but rather those who happened to know the Raiders.

-WoL, as I explained, the protoss have no reason to join the battle, but observe at best. The Dominion is also a faulty argument because they're not looking for trouble against the zerg.

I'm sorry that actual evidence burns SC2 defenders like water on a witch, but the prologue clearly tells you that the Dominion is the most powerful faction.

It is now four years later. Kerrigan and the zerg have remained ominously silent. Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector.

Raynor and his forces, plagued by low morale and lack of resources, continue their struggle against the Dominion. Victory against Mengsk, however, seems more distant than ever....

Oh, if only I could come down to your level and use the term "SC2 hater." I won't though. But that's the prologue text. You've already made the assumption that this is "clearly" telling us the Dominion is the most powerful faction. Expanding influence? Yes. Most powerful? No indication of the sort.

It's a very simple concept. A universe where victories and defeats no longer mean anything is dull and pointless. There is nothing to look forward to because our accomplishments can easily be retconned in the next installment with no rhyme or reason. I mean, if you like that, great, but don't expect others to jump aboard.

I'm not disputing that claim. What I am disputing is that's become the case. So, what happens in BW?

-The protoss resettle on Shakuras, and are still on Shakuras.

-The UED weakens the Dominion through invasion, and it's yet to recover.

-Kerrigan establishes herself as the sole ruler of the zerg, and remains uncontested in that role as of WoL.

-The UED is destroyed, but remnants remain.

-Dark Origin occurs, and Zeratul is still on the hunt.

So yes. The old "BW never happened!" argument. At this point it's clear you think that SC2 is claiming that the Dominion is THE powerhouse of the K-sector, and even if I were to believe such a thing, I can't claim that BW never happened. That, and lot's of other stuff clearly happened.

I complain about their total lack of interest, not their military being downgraded as it should be. I'm not saying they should invade Char like the Dominion has (because that's idiotic), I'm saying they should do something.

At this point, I can only say I disagree. The Dominion and PP have engaged the zerg a few times in the interbellum period, but never with the explicit intent of getting involved in another war. That the Dominion fights the zerg and the protoss don't in WoL is NOT a sign of one being powerful and the other not. It's a sign that the Dominion happens to be occupying the space where the artifacts are, and pays the price for it. No doubt there's someone ready to call me a cheese eating surrendur monkey, but all I can say is that the PP in WoL (and HotS) is more or less acting the way I'd expect it to. Don't take risks, consolidate your forces, play a defensive role. If Kerrigan's giving you breathing room, keep that breathing room as long as possible. We know that the PP has been working on developing new tech (void ray), reviving old tech (colossus) and has taken some cautionary steps (Aiur, Kaldir). Not a bad job as far as war strategy goes IMO.

t says that they left to go do those things. It doesn't say they've succeeded or will succeed. What else did you expect Mengsk to go do anyway? How is this justification for pretending that BW never happened? -_-

I expected Mengsk to rebuild (which he did), rule a weakened Dominion (which he does), and go on from BW. Which, as I mentioned above, has never been in a place of "never happening." You want to argue the Dominion shouldn't have recovered at all, fine. You want to argue that Mengsk shouldn't have got back into power, fine. But more happened in BW than that, and shock of all shocks, SC2 can't function without it (Shakuras, Zeratul, Kerrigan, etc.)

Fair enough, though I would argue that if we're comparing the severity and importance of defeats to Mengsk's, only two of those were truly significant (Korhal and Char).

Fact is, even with those losses, the UED still shows up with their last remnants at Omega, just like Mengsk. At that point, they're both screwed, and I don't see any reason why one is more entitled to leadership than the other.

I also never saw the UED as small. At all. The Earth Colonies would be massive at this point, and even Duran says "the tenacity of your fleets will devastate the zerg without need for such a device", which is apparently a believable concept.

In all honesty, I'd have said that the Char Aleph strike had a good chance of succeeding. Kill the zerg on the platform, kill Kerrigan, and you've basically won. Course I can't see the UED asserting control at all, but, well, what ya gonna do?

But here's the difference - Mengsk has a powerbase to retreat to. He has a Dominion to claim. He's still in charge of Korhal after all, even if he has no military there. The UED has no logical powerbase. Even under Telenil's point that they likely had forces on other planets, there's no ambiguity that it's wiped out as a whole in BW.

As for the UED proper, course it's not small. I'd even argue that as of HotS, it's the most powerful single faction in the Milky Way. Duran's quote regarding the fleet though, I don't see as indicative. Mind control, DuGalle's pride, even with the psi disruptor they had a hard time on Char (well, I say that because the mission is bloody difficult), so while the UED Fleet is no doubt a force to be reckoned with, I don't see it as being all that powerful in of itself. The entire plan was built on deposing Mengsk, taking control of the zerg, and using said zerg to pacify the protoss. A lot of the plan was built on using resources at hand rather than resources already provided for (e.g. the Dylarian Shipyards).

But they love Mengsk, a genocidal maniac who killed billions? And I guess he has plenty of manpower from getting totally wasted during Omega and the rest of the game?

Don't know he killed millions yet, and again, logical place to rebuild from.

Another great dodge. They were under Mengsk pre-BW.

Willingly, by all indications.

Awesome, where's your evidence that a multitude of crippling military defeats still entitles someone to rule an empire and take over the sector? And don't give me Wings of Liberty as proof that Wings of Liberty made sense.

Bringing up intellectual dishonesty though... thanks for the joke. Looking forward to the part of the debate where you accuse me of being "insulting" or "uncivil" because I'm disagreeing with you.

Says the person who's used terms such as "SC2 defender" as a pejorative, and made mentions of witches and water. Oh yes, these are uncivil terms, but I don't care that they're uncivil. Uncivility is not a counter-argument, it only makes an existing one look weaker.

Anyway, let's look at your prior claim:

You haven't explained why. They control his colonies. Their remnants were destroyed, his remnants were destroyed. It could have gone either way.

Is this it? Can I single on this as the crux of the matter? Because if it is, you've quite craftilly left out some inconvenient facts:

-Fact: Kerrigan let Mengsk retreat, not DuGalle.

-Fact: The Dominion still exists in of itself, with Mengsk still emperor. Even if you argue in name only, he's still a leader with a logical powerbase.

-Fact: The UED has been left without a leader.

-Fact: That said, UED remnants still exist.

So I'm left to ask, why is the assumption being made that the UED has equal right to rule? By last count, Mengsk was still in charge of Korhal. Even if his military was defeated, the ownership never left his hands. The UED was retreating to Earth, so I can only assume that they had no powerbase left. I'd have an easier time swallowing the KMC or UP becoming the dominant power, because they at least have come out of two wars relatively unscathed. I'd still argue that they did do better for it given their sparring with the Dominion, but the UED? Sorry. At this point in time, they have nothing to offer the K-sector either politically or militarily. I have to contest the notion that the ending of BW could have gone either way, because even if you argue that Mengsk's rebuilding is only a sign of intent, it makes it quite clear that the UED Expeditionary Force is gone. Done for. "No ship made it back to Earth," and that they're retreating to Earth in the first place tells me how south their invasion has gone for them.

I have to ask, in all honesty, reading the epilogue text of BW, was "the UED are still gonna be around in the sequel" your thought, or something akin to that? If so, I won't judge, but, well, let's just say I have a hard time entertaining that idea.