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Thread: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

  1. #1

    Default [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Looooong time since I've been around. Anyway, an idea hit me, and the more I began thinking about it the more sense it made. SPOILERS below.

    The facility the Kimeran Pirates infiltrated in the map "Deceptions" was run by Duran/Narud.

    We know Duran claimed to be working with the "Confederate Resistance Forces", and the Deception facility was said to be a Confederate lab. Further, you see Infested Stukov here, and we know from HotS Duran/Narud had some sort of interest in studying Stukov's infestation. Under this theory, Duran would be the one who caused Stukov's infestation in the first place. After killing Stukov it would be comparatively simple for someone with Duran's powers to retrieve his corpse, either from the coffin or from the Psi Disruptor (maybe the coffin was empty?). Further, maybe the CRF forces Duran commands was pressed into the Moebius Foundation? It's fully possible.

    The real evidence of this connection; many of the data-files you retrieve in the mission foreshadow things connected with Duran/Narud in the sequel.

    "Zerg/Human Genome Manipulation."

    "Saving Human Mental Faculties In Zerg/Human Hybridization Experiments."

    "Reanimation Using Zerg Infestation Techniques."
    These are all obviously part of the Stukov project. Abathur says Stukov's infestation is so deep it's second only to Kerrigan's and is something he couldn't replicate, and Stukov obviously maintained his mental faculties despite infestation.

    "Biomechanics - Data Transfer From Brain Cells To Terabyte Holodrives."

    "Maintaining Discipline In Rampant AI."

    "Utilizing Dragoon Technology For Human Reconstruction."
    I think we can agree there is a similar thread connecting all of these files. I concede there is no obvious application of such things in Starcraft II (yet). However, there is another possibility; whatever Narud/Duran wanted Stukov for, perhaps it didn't matter how he was revived, as long as he was alive. Duran/Narud may have pursued both Protoss and Zerg methods to revive Stukov and it was the Zerg ones that he went with. Additionally, the Hybrid facility we infiltrate in HotS has Protoss guarding its lower depths, but Terrans on the upper floors. Perhaps Narud was experimenting on the Dominion soldiers on the facility using Protoss technology.

    "Case Study - Dark Templar Cloaking Fields."
    In hindsight this should be a major hint this facility is not a "mere" Confederate lab, because how could they possibly know Dark Templar exist in the first place? If the facility belongs to Duran though it makes perfect sense; in the novel Frontline we see Narud cloak himself to escape Raynor and Kerrigan. Raynor presumes a pin he's wearing is a Moebius Reactor to power a cloaking field. But really, what makes more sense; that a little breast pin can power a cloaking field, or that the obviously psionic Narud has studied and master the Dark Templar ability to bend light around himself to cloak himself that way?

    "Biological Energy Weapon Limb Replacement Technology."
    General Warfield says hi. We know Narud was working with the Dominion on some level, it isn't unreasonable some of this technology got into Mengsk's hands.

    "The Origin Of The Species"
    Obviously I don't need to explain why Narud's computer might have such a file in its harddrive.

    "Advanced Combat Training Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu."
    Valerian. We know Valerian was a personal friend of Narud through Moebius. While I of course do not suggest Narud was researching these things for Valerian at the time, I do find it interesting that one of Valerian's closest business associates would be studying Japanese sword training, and when we're introduced to him in the Dark Templar Saga Valerian demonstrates he's proficient in swordplay.

    "Polarity Shifting Energy Shields Using Battlecruiser Technology."

    "Manipulating Tau Particles Into Stable Orbits."
    Once again these two files seem to be related, though I'll not begin to understand this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_(particle)

    That said, if Narud is trying to develop energy manipulation methods using Terran technology, there could be any number of practical applications for it. It could be related to the containment cells he keeps the Hybrids in for instance.

    "Offspring of Infested Humans."
    ...maybe Duran ships KerriganxStukov?
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  2. #2
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Makes sense to me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Damn it's good to be able to post here again. (Whatever problem was making it impossible to see my text as I type it vanished.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang View Post
    Looooong time since I've been around. Anyway, an idea hit me, and the more I began thinking about it the more sense it made. SPOILERS below.

    The facility the Kimeran Pirates infiltrated in the map "Deceptions" was run by Duran/Narud.

    We know Duran claimed to be working with the "Confederate Resistance Forces", and the Deception facility was said to be a Confederate lab. Further, you see Infested Stukov here, and we know from HotS Duran/Narud had some sort of interest in studying Stukov's infestation. Under this theory, Duran would be the one who caused Stukov's infestation in the first place. After killing Stukov it would be comparatively simple for someone with Duran's powers to retrieve his corpse, either from the coffin or from the Psi Disruptor (maybe the coffin was empty?). Further, maybe the CRF forces Duran commands was pressed into the Moebius Foundation? It's fully possible.
    I think that's quite possible, except for the part about the Moebius Foundation. Unfortunately we don't know how old it is, or how long Narud has been masquerading as Narud. (The earliest evidence for the Foundation was 2503. While Narud was one of the heads, it's possible he took over later.)

    Edit: The Foundation might have been responsible for what was done to Stukov, rather than just "random terrans", and those "Clandestine Mercenaries" in Deception could have been them. As in if Blizzard had had that idea at the time, maybe those terrans in Resurrection would have been labeled "Moebius". Then again, Raynor did at least sort of trust them as soon as he heard of them.

    The real evidence of this connection; many of the data-files you retrieve in the mission foreshadow things connected with Duran/Narud in the sequel.

    These are all obviously part of the Stukov project. Abathur says Stukov's infestation is so deep it's second only to Kerrigan's and is something he couldn't replicate, and Stukov obviously maintained his mental faculties despite infestation.
    This doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

    I think we can agree there is a similar thread connecting all of these files. I concede there is no obvious application of such things in Starcraft II (yet). However, there is another possibility; whatever Narud/Duran wanted Stukov for, perhaps it didn't matter how he was revived, as long as he was alive. Duran/Narud may have pursued both Protoss and Zerg methods to revive Stukov and it was the Zerg ones that he went with. Additionally, the Hybrid facility we infiltrate in HotS has Protoss guarding its lower depths, but Terrans on the upper floors. Perhaps Narud was experimenting on the Dominion soldiers on the facility using Protoss technology.
    Another possibility is those protoss were Tal'darim. Well, probably not, as they were prisoners, but if they were high on Sundrop it makes sense.

    In hindsight this should be a major hint this facility is not a "mere" Confederate lab, because how could they possibly know Dark Templar exist in the first place? If the facility belongs to Duran though it makes perfect sense; in the novel Frontline we see Narud cloak himself to escape Raynor and Kerrigan. Raynor presumes a pin he's wearing is a Moebius Reactor to power a cloaking field. But really, what makes more sense; that a little breast pin can power a cloaking field, or that the obviously psionic Narud has studied and master the Dark Templar ability to bend light around himself to cloak himself that way?
    Narud wouldn't necessarily have needed to study Dark Templar cloaking, as a servant of the Dark Voice he could have learned from him instead. (The Dark Voice lived in the Void.) But then the Dark Voice was dead, which would make teaching difficult

    But this does bring up something interesting. The powers of the Sundrop-corrupted protoss on Aiur included cloaking. While it's possible they developed this naturally, they could have been taught by Ulrezaj "and the creature that he serves". Could that creature have been Narud? I think that's actually pretty likely.

    General Warfield says hi. We know Narud was working with the Dominion on some level, it isn't unreasonable some of this technology got into Mengsk's hands.
    That kind of tech makes a pretty good bribe and advertisement. "If I can do this, I can mix protoss and zerg too!"

    Valerian. We know Valerian was a personal friend of Narud through Moebius. While I of course do not suggest Narud was researching these things for Valerian at the time, I do find it interesting that one of Valerian's closest business associates would be studying Japanese sword training, and when we're introduced to him in the Dark Templar Saga Valerian demonstrates he's proficient in swordplay.
    I didn't think of this one at all. Maybe Narud asked Valerian for some tips.

    Once again these two files seem to be related, though I'll not begin to understand this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_(particle)
    Taus are leptons, a class of subatomic particles that includes the electron (as opposed to quarks, which includes protons and neutrons). In plainer English, taus are heavy electrons. In theory, battlecruisers could use "lepton shields" but I don't see how that's better than their older shields. I guess I'm saying the stuff about leptons isn't actually that interesting. They're just exotic particles, and trying to use them to explain battlecruiser shields requires an amount of technobabble.

    That said, if Narud is trying to develop energy manipulation methods using Terran technology, there could be any number of practical applications for it. It could be related to the containment cells he keeps the Hybrids in for instance.
    Could be. Alas, Blizzard has told us nothing about stasis cells.


    ...maybe Duran ships KerriganxStukov?
    I was shipping Stewart/Kerrigan, especially when he was described as her "consort", but he wasn't around long enough for any children to be born. Honestly, I thought that would have been a major plot point in Heart of the Swarm when the second book came out, but nope. We got more alien zerg instead though, which is also cool.
    Last edited by The_Blade; 08-19-2014 at 09:21 PM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    http://vimi.tv/archengeia/c/2441021/

    Interesting video. I started off making a thread based off on it, but it was taking too long to summarize my thoughts, and I figured given the subject matter, it was best to post it in this one.

    -Love the ideas about Duran, and it's got me thinking that he and Narud are indeed the same person. I was averse to the idea due to the apparent lack of Narud's manipulation, but in hindsight, he was manipulating us all along. The Hybrid Breeding Program in of itself is testament to this. And the psi emitters, the Ghost Program...I've long suspected that Duran and Routhe were one and the same, but the ideas about his possible manipualtions in that field make perfect sense.

    -Love the points about Amon. Personally I compare him more to a Morgoth-type villain rather than a Voldemort one, (in as much that Morgoth and Amon are villains that are able to do what they do because of what a situation created by their contempries allows for) but otherwise, love the points. It kinda ties in about why I QFT the Voice in the Darkness. The xel'naga are, in a sense, the true villains of the setting IMO. Amon is interesting because he's doing the opposite of what the xel'naga did for aeons. But given what the xel'naga's actions have resulted in (Aeon of Strife, the Helios extinction, the zerg, the Tal'darim), in a nihilistic sort of way, I have to ask...can we blame him? The Void has been associated with death numerous times, so that's another eerie similarity to the premise of Amon being an entity of the Void, not to mention that the xel'naga could travel through the Void as well.

  5. #5

    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Thanks for sharing that, Hawki, great vid.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  6. #6
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    "The Queen of Blades and Kerrigan were two separate people. They were very adamant that the Queen of Blades and Kerrigan are two separate individuals. This is confirmed fact."

    Can't really get onboard with any of this given that the lead writer tells us the opposite:

    Answer: The Queen of Blades and Sarah Kerrigan are not quite the same person. The Queen of Blades is essentially Sarah Kerrigan under the influence of some devastating forces: incredible power, a dominating level of psi energy, and the presence of Zerg mutagen from the cellular level up.

    To be clear, the Queen of Blades is not a separate entity that possessed Kerrigan. Kerrigan is (certainly in her mind) responsible for the terrible things she's done. She has immense guilt for those actions, but she was not completely in her "right mind" in Brood War.
    http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/7493439

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
    Thanks for sharing that, Hawki, great vid.
    Thanks. Not really my job to plug, but http://www.youtube.com/user/Archengeia has plenty more ruminations (and other videos). Like to listen to them while doing work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    "The Queen of Blades and Kerrigan were two separate people. They were very adamant that the Queen of Blades and Kerrigan are two separate individuals. This is confirmed fact."

    Can't really get onboard with any of this given that the lead writer tells us the opposite:
    By the quote, doesn't Kindragan actually confirm that they're effectively separate individuals? The part that you highlight is a statement that the QoB is not a separate entity that possesses Kerrigan. No-one was claiming that she was under possession. What is the claim is that they're two separate individuals/personas, and Kindragan states that "the Queen of Blades and Sarah Kerrigan are not quite the same person. The Queen of Blades is essentially Sarah Kerrigan under the influence of some devastating forces: incredible power, a dominating level of psi energy, and the presence of Zerg mutagen from the cellular level up."

    Now I'm not agreeing with everything Archengeia states - for instance, the impression I got was that Raynor was torn up right to the moment of the choice he made at the end of WoL, and the "contact moment" was part of that torment, but not the catalyst in itself. But going by Kindragan's comment, WoL itself (the contact moment), Tassadar's "twisted wiles" comment in SC1, and every little moment of morality that Kerrigan showed from BW up to Hybrid, then the separate persona idea makes sense.

    Course she calls herself the Queen of Blades again in HotS and decides it's right to kill millions to get revenge on one man, so go figure. 0_0

  8. #8
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    By the quote, doesn't Kindragan actually confirm that they're effectively separate individuals?
    The same way that you could be a different person when under the influence of drugs. That's the point he was trying to make.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    The same way that you could be a different person when under the influence of drugs. That's the point he was trying to make.
    So is this not enough to then say that the Queen of Blades, and Sarah Kerrigan, are different personae? Yes, they are intimately bound and intertwined, but there are many clear distinctions between them. These lines seem to blur during HotS, however, as the Sarah Kerrigan we knew in SC I is resigned to an existence of bloodshed and slaughter, and has the power to make it happen.


    I enjoy the possibility that the Queen of Blades is an embodiment of an echo or shadow of Amon. I also really enjoy how Arch Angina resolves the plot hole revolving around Arcturus' and Valerian's use of Moebius and Tychus.
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 10-19-2014 at 06:34 PM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  10. #10

    Default Re: [Theorcraft] - Duran ran the Deception Facility

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The same way that you could be a different person when under the influence of drugs. That's the point he was trying to make.
    I can see how you can get to that conclusion, but I disagree with the comparison. That the term "drugs" is never used in the Q&A notwithstanding, or any other similar analogy bar "devastating forces," is kind of telling. But here's the problem with the drug analogy when it comes to Kerrigan.

    Drugs are external stimuli. A person under their influence can act differently, to the point where they seem like a completely different person. However, that influence will cease once the external stimuli ceases as well. Yes, drugs can inflict lasting mental damage, but the person will not be acting the way they were while under said influence. That, and drug use is usually a decision made by the person under their influence. Claiming that you were under the influence of drugs as a defence wouldn't be accepted as a defence in a criminal trial for instance.

    Kerrigan's infestation bears resemblance to drugs in that it's a form of external stimuli as well. Here however, the similarities end. The Queen of Blades won't stop being the Queen of Blades through that stimuli ceasing, because her entire thought process and physical form have been altered to the extent that they can't go back to the way they were without something as drastic. That, and Kerrigan bears no responsibility for her infestation. Archengeia made the comparison to Arthas, and while similarities do exist, the difference is that Arthas bears responsibility for becoming the Lich King and whatnot, because of the decisions he made. Kerrigan becoming the QoB is something that she played no part in herself. In the realm of citing similar characters, there's Picard becoming Locutus and Zander's arachnid form. Both stem from external stimuli that doesn't end because of limited duration of the effects, and Picard only stopped being Locutus because of equally drastic external stimuli from the Federation.

    So no, the drug reference isn't a good one. It was clear in SC1 that the Queen of Blades was, for all intents and purposes, not the same individual as Sarah Kerrigan in terms of identity. Oh, echoes remained to be sure, like how she spared Raynor and how she hated Mengsk and Duke, but by WoL, bar one single moment in the very last moment, Sarah Kerrigan was effectively dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
    I enjoy the possibility that the Queen of Blades is an embodiment of an echo or shadow of Amon. I also really enjoy how Arch Angina resolves the plot hole revolving around Arcturus' and Valerian's use of Moebius and Tychus.
    Maybe. I doubt the echo thing. As for the manipulation, I don't see a plot hole per se, but rather that Narud was pursuing two objectives that happened to overlap. He manipulates Mengsk into providing him the resources for the Hybrid Breeding Program, but the xel'naga device idea came from Ramsey. But it makes sense that Narud plays everyone to his advantage, given that he helps Raynor recover the artifacts, and must have counted on its use given that the hybrids were around to collect the energy. So in one fell swoop, in theory, he not only removes Kerrigan, but gets the energy to resurrect Amon. And all the while he's using the Dominion as proxy to develop hybrids that you can bet would turn against the Dominion at the drop of the hat. Fits in with what Duran was doing with the mercs definitely. Come to think of it, assuming Narud and Duran are the same, that's twice he's 'let himself go.' He had no reason to tell Zeratul anything, yet did. He didn't try to manipulate Kerrigan in HotS, but was willing to use brute force to achieve his ends. I definitely think that Duran has some degree of individuality to him, because he's shown some very human emotions (rage, contempt, fervor...). I just hope he appears in LotV, because IMO, if Duran's to die, Zeratul should be the one to do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The same way that you could be a different person when under the influence of drugs. That's the point he was trying to make.
    I can see how you can get to that conclusion, but I disagree with the comparison. That the term "drugs" is never used in the Q&A notwithstanding, or any other similar analogy bar "devastating forces," is kind of telling. But here's the problem with the drug analogy when it comes to Kerrigan.

    Drugs are external stimuli. A person under their influence can act differently, to the point where they seem like a completely different person. However, that influence will cease once the external stimuli ceases as well. Yes, drugs can inflict lasting mental damage, but the person will not be acting the way they were while under said influence. That, and drug use is usually a decision made by the person under their influence. Claiming that you were under the influence of drugs as a defence wouldn't be accepted as a defence in a criminal trial for instance.

    Kerrigan's infestation bears resemblance to drugs in that it's a form of external stimuli as well. Here however, the similarities end. The Queen of Blades won't stop being the Queen of Blades through that stimuli ceasing, because her entire thought process and physical form have been altered to the extent that they can't go back to the way they were without something as drastic. That, and Kerrigan bears no responsibility for her infestation. Archengeia made the comparison to Arthas, and while similarities do exist, the difference is that Arthas bears responsibility for becoming the Lich King and whatnot, because of the decisions he made. Kerrigan becoming the QoB is something that she played no part in herself. In the realm of citing similar characters, there's Picard becoming Locutus and Zander's arachnid form. Both stem from external stimuli that doesn't end because of limited duration of the effects, and Picard only stopped being Locutus because of equally drastic external stimuli from the Federation.

    So no, the drug reference isn't a good one. It was clear in SC1 that the Queen of Blades was, for all intents and purposes, not the same individual as Sarah Kerrigan in terms of identity. Oh, echoes remained to be sure, like how she spared Raynor and how she hated Mengsk and Duke, but by WoL, bar one single moment in the very last moment, Sarah Kerrigan was effectively dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas
    I enjoy the possibility that the Queen of Blades is an embodiment of an echo or shadow of Amon. I also really enjoy how Arch Angina resolves the plot hole revolving around Arcturus' and Valerian's use of Moebius and Tychus.
    Maybe. I doubt the echo thing. As for the manipulation, I don't see a plot hole per se, but rather that Narud was pursuing two objectives that happened to overlap. He manipulates Mengsk into providing him the resources for the Hybrid Breeding Program, but the xel'naga device idea came from Ramsey. But it makes sense that Narud plays everyone to his advantage, given that he helps Raynor recover the artifacts, and must have counted on its use given that the hybrids were around to collect the energy. So in one fell swoop, in theory, he not only removes Kerrigan, but gets the energy to resurrect Amon. And all the while he's using the Dominion as proxy to develop hybrids that you can bet would turn against the Dominion at the drop of the hat. Fits in with what Duran was doing with the mercs definitely. Come to think of it, assuming Narud and Duran are the same, that's twice he's 'let himself go.' He had no reason to tell Zeratul anything, yet did. He didn't try to manipulate Kerrigan in HotS, but was willing to use brute force to achieve his ends. I definitely think that Duran has some degree of individuality to him, because he's shown some very human emotions (rage, contempt, fervor...). I just hope he appears in LotV, because IMO, if Duran's to die, Zeratul should be the one to do it.

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