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Thread: So yeah...LotV?

  1. #161

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok
    See the problem here is that going against what you stand for has to holds its weight.
    Of course, but it also has to fall in line with the bigger picture of a storyline. We see this in intelligently built movies like Inception where the little pieces and "deaths" seem pointless until the point we reach the end conclusion (which imo was crafted REALLY well). In the end, we see the point of seeing the death / revenge / love / hate / heroism of these characters because the end justifies the means in a matter of speaking. There is STILL a logical follow-through to an inevitable or very surprising conclusion which makes the confusion of the midway completely worth it.

    That's how good stories tend to work, and SC2's only flaw in this is likely its segmentation across 6 episodes in SC1 and 3 whole games in SC2. That's a MUCH MUCH bigger scope than that of a single movie.

    I'd compare SC2's storyline to that of LOTR and Tolkien's way of pushing lead-ups, sacrificing of characters to benefit the "greater good" of the story, and we can even compare the storyline to The Walking Dead in some respects, even though that story has different elements to work with. The point is that because of how huge the story of Starcraft is, it is very easy to focus on unnecessary details of the middle part of the story and forget that there is an end we have not seen yet. You see a large part of this and you understand why some of these things have happened, so it goes to show that you do indeed understand that there is an outcome we have yet to see, and this is what will make or break SC2's story.

    If Blizzard somehow makes the end trivial or pointless, I will be the first to condemn the entire point of the story in the same way you currently are. At this moment, the story is still incomplete and many elements of explanation are missing. Plots need to be covered, loose ends joined, and we can only hope Blizzard does that well. They've done a good job so far building up and joining a lot of things between SC1 and 2. Still some loose ends exist, so we need to wait on LOTV for that.

  2. #162

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by protoswarrior View Post
    Of course, but it also has to fall in line with the bigger picture of a storyline. We see this in intelligently built movies like Inception where the little pieces and "deaths" seem pointless until the point we reach the end conclusion (which imo was crafted REALLY well). In the end, we see the point of seeing the death / revenge / love / hate / heroism of these characters because the end justifies the means in a matter of speaking. There is STILL a logical follow-through to an inevitable or very surprising conclusion which makes the confusion of the midway completely worth it.

    That's how good stories tend to work, and SC2's only flaw in this is likely its segmentation across 6 episodes in SC1 and 3 whole games in SC2. That's a MUCH MUCH bigger scope than that of a single movie.

    I'd compare SC2's storyline to that of LOTR and Tolkien's way of pushing lead-ups, sacrificing of characters to benefit the "greater good" of the story, and we can even compare the storyline to The Walking Dead in some respects, even though that story has different elements to work with. The point is that because of how huge the story of Starcraft is, it is very easy to focus on unnecessary details of the middle part of the story and forget that there is an end we have not seen yet. You see a large part of this and you understand why some of these things have happened, so it goes to show that you do indeed understand that there is an outcome we have yet to see, and this is what will make or break SC2's story.

    If Blizzard somehow makes the end trivial or pointless, I will be the first to condemn the entire point of the story in the same way you currently are. At this moment, the story is still incomplete and many elements of explanation are missing. Plots need to be covered, loose ends joined, and we can only hope Blizzard does that well. They've done a good job so far building up and joining a lot of things between SC1 and 2. Still some loose ends exist, so we need to wait on LOTV for that.
    I understand that, but to me there's just too big a risk factor in all this.

    Once Zeratul tells Artanis of his actions, his people would just point out that he put his faith in someone who is incapable of ANYTHING except lies, deceit, manipulation, backstabbing, mass murder, and power lust at any cost.

    In HotS, Zeratul had know for both corrupted and primal Zerg, their heritage is to consume essence and to grow strong and evolve from it.

    Therefore, his people would argue, that since the Overmind's plan for Kerrigan was only to ensure the survival of the Zerg species, it's entirely possible her strategy against Amon is simply to kill everyone else, assimilate them into the swarm in some way, allowing the Zerg to grow strong enough to beat him and his hybrids.

    And they would ultimately argue to Zeratul, "How do you know her strategy won't be something like THAT?"

  3. #163

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    I understand that, but to me there's just too big a risk factor in all this.

    Once Zeratul tells Artanis of his actions, his people would just point out that he put his faith in someone who is incapable of ANYTHING except lies, deceit, manipulation, backstabbing, mass murder, and power lust at any cost.

    In HotS, Zeratul had know for both corrupted and primal Zerg, their heritage is to consume essence and to grow strong and evolve from it.

    Therefore, his people would argue, that since the Overmind's plan for Kerrigan was only to ensure the survival of the Zerg species, it's entirely possible her strategy against Amon is simply to kill everyone else, assimilate them into the swarm in some way, allowing the Zerg to grow strong enough to beat him and his hybrids.

    And they would ultimately argue to Zeratul, "How do you know her strategy won't be something like THAT?"
    That's fair criticism of Zeratul, and they'd be right to question him this way. It is up to Blizzard to fill in the blanks here. We cannot say what Kerrigan will/will not do, nor do we know how Blizzard will approach this from the Protoss perspective. I think we will see things differently once we see the full story of LOTV; we just cannot be speculating so much on this without knowing the end result. It is a good and fair point that the Protoss cannot really trust Zeratul's word, and I am assuming at this point that Amon's "intervention" will just radically switch the Protoss' understanding of the gravity of the situation to one where they realize that they need the Zerg in order to win against such overwhelming power, especially if we guessed correctly what happens on Aiur, based on the cinematic.

    I am really excited for that or something of the sort to happen.

  4. #164

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by protoswarrior View Post
    That's fair criticism of Zeratul, and they'd be right to question him this way. It is up to Blizzard to fill in the blanks here. We cannot say what Kerrigan will/will not do, nor do we know how Blizzard will approach this from the Protoss perspective. I think we will see things differently once we see the full story of LOTV; we just cannot be speculating so much on this without knowing the end result. It is a good and fair point that the Protoss cannot really trust Zeratul's word, and I am assuming at this point that Amon's "intervention" will just radically switch the Protoss' understanding of the gravity of the situation to one where they realize that they need the Zerg in order to win against such overwhelming power, especially if we guessed correctly what happens on Aiur, based on the cinematic.

    I am really excited for that or something of the sort to happen.
    Yeah that's why I was a bit concerned about the PvZ actions in LotV, and if that's indeed what's going to end up happening. It shouldn't, because the Khala and Void prevent infestation, and Kerrigan would have to know that to get around it, she'd have to spend WAY too much time for that.

    As for needing the Zerg to win, I can't agree with that.

    The Protoss would simply point out that they already tried this alliance in the BW, and Fenix did it again with Kerrigan against the UED. They thought siding with her was the lesser of two evils, and look where that ended up.

    Kerrigan has to know it's entirely possible that this time, the Protoss may simply decide it's better to first kill the enemy they already know, and then take their chances against the enemy they don't.

  5. #165

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by protoswarrior View Post
    I pointed out that Zerg essence/"culture" does not necessarily mean that they absolutely have to be a hivemind to be considered uniquely Zerg.
    Not according to the original Xel'Naga concept/conceit. Some would tell you that their purity of essence is what makes them Zerg and that the hivemind is what enables that purity. Without it, they are just lesser animals - sure we can still call them Zerg on a physiological, biological and behavioural level but they are not the Zerg as originally intended/created to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by protoswarrior View Post
    I am merely demonstrating the point that having individuality does not necessarily detract from the essence of being a certain race.
    I do get this particular point - just not your example. Unlike most others (what I've mentioned above) I've always felt the purity of essence was an innate physiological characteristic in that the early Zerg parasite was able carry forward and dominate the evolution of an alien host despite the constant risk of unwanted/unexpected mutation with the incorporation of such foreign material. In that sense, yeah, this pretty much conforms to what you're saying.

    What I was saying before is from the perspective of what the Zerg had become since their immediate origins and how we saw them as whole concept around the time of Sc1. The reason the Zerg are so unique is because they are unified in a way that no other race was. That they happened to be so effective was a byproduct of this inherent quality they possessed. Now that that's been subverted, we don't have a solid grasp of what it means to be Zerg anymore - especially when it's now been dominated and influenced by a Terran. Besides, the Brood Mothers are supposed to be more intelligent and independent leaders that were to elevate the Zerg beyond what cerebrates were capable of yet they still war with other Zerg willingly and/or act independently until an ultimate leader comes back to reign them all back in. This is not really much of an improvement of what they were like before in BW because at least the BW feral Zerg had a reason to fight each other whereas the more intelligent and capable Brood Mothers should be knowing better if they really are indeed supposed to be better.

    Also, although the Protoss are alien, too, they feel pretty much like what a heightened human with special powers would be - which is very unlike what the Zerg are. The appeal of the Zerg is that they are not supposed to be sympathisable or recognisably human in any overt form but yet command respect nonetheless for their alien convictions/values.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  6. #166

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What I was saying before is from the perspective of what the Zerg had become since their immediate origins and how we saw them as whole concept around the time of Sc1. The reason the Zerg are so unique is because they are unified in a way that no other race was. That they happened to be so effective was a byproduct of this inherent quality they possessed.
    This was one of the drawbacks with the primal Zerg. It really makes you wonder if the Xel'Naga had to create the Overmind for better control over them.

  7. #167

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  8. #168

    Default Re: So yeah...LotV?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Bah, that interview told squat. As for their lore knowledge, I doubt that.

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