Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[Nissa]

Very much this! If BW showed Mengsk actually leading the Terrans competently, then Rag's theories would have some traction. Given that Mengsk had lost so much face throughout BW, one really has to stretch and make up idealistic reasons to ever explain how he got back his power let alone improve things over the span of 4 years in a way that outstripped the developments made by the Confederacy, who in comparison held power for nearly two centuries and yet share a similar ethos and style in governing.

Saying that Mengsk's continued existence and power going into Sc2 is justified because he showed smarts in Sc1 (which itself can be debated in light of what happens with his character in BW) and because he could whip up a fleet for the final battle would mean that you've have to willfully ignore the other overt things like his underlying superficial nature and actual incompetence he displays in BW.

Well, you have to consider how much the people know about Mengsk. For sure he wouldn't admit that he was working with Kerrigan to get Korhal back in BW, and few actually saw him be a huge coward in front of Kerri. Also, there's no particular reason why most people would favor the UED over Mengsk. The UED is an organization that does not understand the K Sector, and given the beginning cutscene of BW, they don't seem to have much concern over the lives of regular people. Some might have actually welcomed Mengsk back after he retook Korhal, seeing Kerrigan's departure from Korhal as a retreat rather than the spite that it was. It always gets on my nerves how in every single SC novel ever, the writers always assume that their characters, nobodies in the Starcraft universe, know everything about Mengsk that the players do.

Not that you don't have a point, I'm just saying that you have to consider that misinformation is something Mengsk generally excels at, SC2 aside.

[ragnarok]

Well, you have to consider how much the people know about Mengsk. For sure he wouldn't admit that he was working with Kerrigan to get Korhal back in BW, and few actually saw him be a huge coward in front of Kerri. Also, there's no particular reason why most people would favor the UED over Mengsk. The UED is an organization that does not understand the K Sector, and given the beginning cutscene of BW, they don't seem to have much concern over the lives of regular people. Some might have actually welcomed Mengsk back after he retook Korhal, seeing Kerrigan's departure from Korhal as a retreat rather than the spite that it was. It always gets on my nerves how in every single SC novel ever, the writers always assume that their characters, nobodies in the Starcraft universe, know everything about Mengsk that the players do.

Not that you don't have a point, I'm just saying that you have to consider that misinformation is something Mengsk generally excels at, SC2 aside.

Yeah but the people of Korhal aren't blind. They would have seen the Zerg attack Korhal which drove off the UED. That was the REAL reason for Korhal back in Dominion hands. Raynor and Fenix's forces did their share, and certainly a lot more than Mengsk, but the people didn't notice it that way.

So to the people, the swarm did most of the work.

[Nissa]

Yeah but the people of Korhal aren't blind. They would have seen the Zerg attack Korhal which drove off the UED. That was the REAL reason for Korhal back in Dominion hands. Raynor and Fenix's forces did their share, and certainly a lot more than Mengsk, but the people didn't notice it that way.

So to the people, the swarm did most of the work.

Think about it. Sure, the swarm drove off the UED, but Kerrigan left Korhal after that. She left Mengsk to lick his wounds, allowing him ample opportunity to spin it in a way that he drove her off in battle, rather than Kerri kicking his butt and leaving because she felt like it. No one knows why Kerri left, only that she did.

[ragnarok]

Think about it. Sure, the swarm drove off the UED, but Kerrigan left Korhal after that. She left Mengsk to lick his wounds, allowing him ample opportunity to spin it in a way that he drove her off in battle, rather than Kerri kicking his butt and leaving because she felt like it. No one knows why Kerri left, only that she did.

She left because only the UED's power on Char posed any threat to her, but you're right in that the civilians wouldn't see that. Even so, they would have known it's not a REAL Dominion victory.

[FanaticTemplar]

Yeah but the people of Korhal aren't blind. They would have seen the Zerg attack Korhal which drove off the UED.

Would they? The UED brought their Broods to Korhal. Can the average Dominion civilian tell two Broods apart? Wouldn't it look like the UED lost control over the monsters and Mengsk seized the opportunity to reclaim Korhal?

[Turalyon]

Except that's my point. Mengsk builds the Dominion from the shattered remnants of the old Confederacy, then gets his power completely broken by the UED, then becomes relevant again, then gets broken and abandoned among the ashes of his empire by Kerrigan, then gets relevant again and broken again in Omega, all this occurs in the span of, what, one month? And people are absolutely fine with this, but then it's apparently a plot hole that he's able to do this once in five years? Do you have any evidence that his defeat in Omega is more serious-for-real-we-mean-it-this-time than the others? By all appearances, this is the least insane of all the times Mengsk has bounced back.

Whether Mengsk actually becomes "relevant" again by his own merit after having been freed by Raynor and Kerrigan is debatable. Again, whether he is considered "relevant" to the same degree as before when making his appearance in Omega is another. In BW, there is this progression of him seemingly dipping into a well that is quickly becoming dry.

The issue isn't that he can't/shouldn't comeback at all specifically but rather that the setup in BW heavily implies that Mengsk will have a hard time of it. Five years is actually a very short period of time to recover and actualyy become "so much better than before" when you consider that throughout BW, Mengsk's position became eroded to levels that would put him, at the least (if not worse), on equal footing with any other viable contender willing and having their own resources to push their agenda. Any "intelligence" we think he displayed in Sc1 was countered by his incompetence in BW (heck even in Sc1, he keeps on relying on Duke for crying out loud!). You may not like how BW's story turned out or it's outcomes, but you can't just the ignore clear signposting of Mengsk's direction there.

This is where Sc2's depiction of the Dominion and Mengsk becomes problematic. That they are powerful again is not really the core of the problem nor is it an isolated issue viewed on its own but rather that there is no continuity from the blows he took in BW nor the acknowledgement of the sheer incompetency he displays into account. It's much like the issue of the lack of progression/consistency in Raynor's character from BW into Sc2. It is arguable that "nothing really happens in BW" when looking at Sc1/BW alone, but when you look at Sc1, BW and Sc2 together, BW becomes utterly and completely pointless for real.

Not at all. I've argued on this site repeatedly about the retcon of the Protoss victory on Aiur. This is stuff that is explicitly mentioned in the StarCraft epilogue, yet fans were willing to perform all kinds of acrobatics to explain how it wasn't a contradiction from Obi-Wan's point of view. Yet the interpretation of a 'good Overmind' must be firmly held onto despite it being only possibly implied, and despite being clearly refuted by the authours?

You should also keep in mind that I agreed with you, in principle, that the beginning of BW does contradict the ending of Sc1.

This scenario is a little different. We had to have a "proper canonical continuation" in BW to contradict the ending of Sc1, whereas we have nothing of the sort with the 'good' Overmind except some random "Word of God" from the authors that most other people would not be even aware of. I doubt that there will ever be any elucidation of this in any other future release, so people are justified in their "wtf?" at seeing something like this. Also, Sc2 is a "proper canonical continuation" showing the revelation (it is presented in such manner, which in itself speak volumes about how one should interpret it) of the Overmind possibly being 'good' when in the previous iterations it was clearly not - like what BW did to Sc1' ending. Those people are having the same sort of reaction you had, really. I'm well aware of the irony (and possible hypocrisy) of the thing mind you, but at the least, I like to think I've been consistent with my thoughts on this matter.

Well, you have to consider how much the people know about Mengsk. For sure he wouldn't admit that he was working with Kerrigan to get Korhal back in BW, and few actually saw him be a huge coward in front of Kerri. Also, there's no particular reason why most people would favor the UED over Mengsk. The UED is an organization that does not understand the K Sector, and given the beginning cutscene of BW, they don't seem to have much concern over the lives of regular people. Some might have actually welcomed Mengsk back after he retook Korhal, seeing Kerrigan's departure from Korhal as a retreat rather than the spite that it was. It always gets on my nerves how in every single SC novel ever, the writers always assume that their characters, nobodies in the Starcraft universe, know everything about Mengsk that the players do.

Not that you don't have a point, I'm just saying that you have to consider that misinformation is something Mengsk generally excels at, SC2 aside.

I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else by saying this, but I think it is rather myopic to think that Mengsk is the one and only person to have the cajones and capability to lead the Terrans aside from the UED. Indeed, to think so would be you buying into Mengsk's propaganda (keeping in mind that his mastery of it is really just an informed attribute). Just because we haven't been privy to any other contenders doesn't mean that there are no others chomping at the bit. This is especially considering that the Terrans, as a people, are a fickle bunch who will opportunistically hitch their wagon to whichever horse they feel is going to come out on top (Mengsk never feels like he'll be on top of things throughout BW) and have plenty of "depth" (in regards to the culture, temperament and overall environment) to produce many other Mengsk-like individuals.

[Telenil]

I know that, and this is why to all the Dominion people that hated Mengsk out there, I just don't understand why the hell they DIDN'T take the chance. Sure, Mengsk kept things in good order, but the only reason humanity survived AT ALL after the Brood War was because Kerrigan took the swarm back to Char and disappeared from sight for the next 4 years.

In other words, humanity's "survival" was due to sheer dumb luck, not any of Mengsk's skills or anything like that.

Pretty much. It didn't happen because the writers said "nope, we want a Mengsk stronger than ever".
Also, you know that this blaming mass casualties on the victims was complete bullshit, right?

Would they? The UED brought their Broods to Korhal. Can the average Dominion civilian tell two Broods apart? Wouldn't it look like the UED lost control over the monsters and Mengsk seized the opportunity to reclaim Korhal?

That sounds unlikely, for several reasons.

Seeing a giant wave of Zerg attacking the capital would have made every person in Augustgrad support the UED. It makes far more sense to have Arcturus broadcast a message like "we have our own Zerg brood, and we are coming!" so that his supporters would also attack the UED.
Arcturus' own forces had to know they were allied with some Zerg. The surprise attack in True Colors wouldn't have been a surprise if they didn't think the Zerg were on their side.
Last but not least, the UED probably had an idea what was going on, and Arcturus actually working with alien powers is Christmas for their propagandists: "Citizen Mengsk is begging the help of an infested Terran!".

Besides, even assuming the people believed the obvious line of "Dominion resistance forced the beast-like Zerg to abandon Korhal!", Mengsk's forces got trounced as a matter of fact. The people who might be in a position to challenge Arcturus are also in a position to know exactly what happened.

[Nissa]

I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else by saying this, but I think it is rather myopic to think that Mengsk is the one and only person to have the cajones and capability to lead the Terrans aside from the UED. Indeed, to think so would be you buying into Mengsk's propaganda (keeping in mind that his mastery of it is really just an informed attribute). Just because we haven't been privy to any other contenders doesn't mean that there are no others chomping at the bit. This is especially considering that the Terrans, as a people, are a fickle bunch who will opportunistically hitch their wagon to whichever horse they feel is going to come out on top (Mengsk never feels like he'll be on top of things throughout BW) and have plenty of "depth" (in regards to the culture, temperament and overall environment) to produce many other Mengsk-like individuals.

That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying there were no competitors, I was just trying to point out that normal civilians wouldn't know the full story about Mengsk, and that there's a difference between the player and a person living as a Starcraft character.

[ragnarok]

Would they? The UED brought their Broods to Korhal. Can the average Dominion civilian tell two Broods apart? Wouldn't it look like the UED lost control over the monsters and Mengsk seized the opportunity to reclaim Korhal?

True, but if we follow THAT example, that's still not a Dominion victory. That would only mean the UED were arrogant and incompetent, thinking they could control the Zerg in such a way, and it came back to bite them.

That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying there were no competitors, I was just trying to point out that normal civilians wouldn't know the full story about Mengsk, and that there's a difference between the player and a person living as a Starcraft character.

See, this is why it took Raynor so long to nail Mengsk to the wall in WoL. He knew what happened on Tarsonis, but the civilian didn't, and thus it was his word against Mengsk's. And since Mengsk's word was the law, Raynor's word meant nothing.

That's why it wasn't until finding the adjutant in WoL that Raynor was able to do what he did.

[FanaticTemplar]

Whether Mengsk actually becomes "relevant" again by his own merit after having been freed by Raynor and Kerrigan is debatable. Again, whether he is considered "relevant" to the same degree as before when making his appearance in Omega is another. In BW, there is this progression of him seemingly dipping into a well that is quickly becoming dry.

Well, the whole point of True Colors is that Kerrigan considers him (or more accurately Duke and his forces) a threat, Kerrigan obviously considers him relevant. There's no indication that he's "dipping in a well that is quickly becoming dry", he doesn't sound increasingly desperate, his reaction to defeat in Omega is the same as in Emperor's Fall - he swears that he'll be back soon.

The issue isn't that he can't/shouldn't comeback at all specifically but rather that the setup in BW heavily implies that Mengsk will have a hard time of it. Five years is actually a very short period of time to recover and actualyy become "so much better than before" when you consider that throughout BW, Mengsk's position became eroded to levels that would put him, at the least (if not worse), on equal footing with any other viable contender willing and having their own resources to push their agenda. Any "intelligence" we think he displayed in Sc1 was countered by his incompetence in BW (heck even in Sc1, he keeps on relying on Duke for crying out loud!). You may not like how BW's story turned out or it's outcomes, but you can't just the ignore clear signposting of Mengsk's direction there.

Actually, you'll find that I pointed out Mengsk's stupidity in Brood War long ago. And yes, rebuilding his empire that well in only five years is incredibly improbable, but it's actually far more plausible than previously established events. I point out those other two times that Mengsk became relevant after being deposed within the span of about one month in Brood War, but that's not all - I remember in another thread some time ago I argued that the Terrans should have been the strongest faction after StarCraft after humanity was united by Mengsk and the Protoss and Zerg slaughtered each other on Aiur, and someone proved me wrong by quoting the opening to Overmind:

"The Swarms have crushed the meager human resistance and laid waste to nine of the thirteen Terran worlds."

This is what the sate of humanity was like before Mengsk built his empire the first time, in only a few months.

And then of course there's the logistics behind the UED invasion, which are the most staggeringly insane of the lot.

I'm not saying that Mengsk's recuperation for Wings of Liberty isn't insane by realistic standards, I'm saying that it is staggeringly sane by Brood War's standards. So why has this suddenly become a problem now?

It's much like the issue of the lack of progression/consistency in Raynor's character from BW into Sc2.

This is also not something I consider problematic in Wings of Liberty. Raynor's character progression isn't complicated, anger isn't an emotion with a lot of staying power. Nor is there any sign that Raynor has abandoned the notion that Kerrigan needs to be killed, not until Valerian shows up with his magic plot device. When the anger subsides, all he's left with is the realisation that he's going to have to kill the woman he loves, and he keeps trying to avoid it. The alcoholism, his interactions with Horner, distracting himself by focusing on Mengsk, it's all pretty consistent.

You should also keep in mind that I agreed with you, in principle, that the beginning of BW does contradict the ending of Sc1.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about you.

This scenario is a little different. We had to have a "proper canonical continuation" in BW to contradict the ending of Sc1, whereas we have nothing of the sort with the 'good' Overmind except some random "Word of God" from the authors that most other people would not be even aware of. I doubt that there will ever be any elucidation of this in any other future release, so people are justified in their "wtf?" at seeing something like this. Also, Sc2 is a "proper canonical continuation" showing the revelation (it is presented in such manner, which in itself speak volumes about how one should interpret it) of the Overmind possibly being 'good' when in the previous iterations it was clearly not - like what BW did to Sc1' ending. Those people are having the same sort of reaction you had, really. I'm well aware of the irony (and possible hypocrisy) of the thing mind you, but at the least, I like to think I've been consistent with my thoughts on this matter.

Sure, but I totally believe that the Overmind was never supposed to be 'good', I don't think this is some kind of damage control, just shoddy writing. I'm convinced that the entire Prophecy arc is an unfinished product, it doesn't conform to the standards or the rest of Wings of Liberty, which while still having numerous flaws, was pretty consistent with what it was trying to do.

Seeing a giant wave of Zerg attacking the capital would have made every person in Augustgrad support the UED. It makes far more sense to have Arcturus broadcast a message like "we have our own Zerg brood, and we are coming!" so that his supporters would also attack the UED.

Except that, as I said, the UED are the ones who brought the Zerg to Korhal. How would the civilians know that these are other Zergs, and not just the UED pets turning against them?

Arcturus' own forces had to know they were allied with some Zerg. The surprise attack in True Colors wouldn't have been a surprise if they didn't think the Zerg were on their side.

You think Mengsk's forces were local guerillas or freedom fighters? I'm pretty sure he came in with his army from elsewhere, just like Kerrigan and Fenix.

Last but not least, the UED probably had an idea what was going on, and Arcturus actually working with alien powers is Christmas for their propagandists: "Citizen Mengsk is begging the help of an infested Terran!".

Brood War is pretty clear that the UED knows nothing about Kerrigan (somehow... for some reason...) and Wings of Liberty is also clear that it is not known even in the Dominion that 'The Queen of Blades' is an infested Terran.

Besides, even assuming the people believed the obvious line of "Dominion resistance forced the beast-like Zerg to abandon Korhal!", Mengsk's forces got trounced as a matter of fact. The people who might be in a position to challenge Arcturus are also in a position to know exactly what happened.

Yeah, but pretty much everyone got trounced at some point or another. How many cored victories?

True, but if we follow THAT example, that's still not a Dominion victory. That would only mean the UED were arrogant and incompetent, thinking they could control the Zerg in such a way, and it came back to bite them.

How does taking advantage of your enemies' mistakes to succeed at achieving your objectives not count as a victory?