Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[RetlocLive]

Almost nothing of consequence happens in Brood War, it's hard to be inconsistent with it.

The Dominion's downward spiral throughout Episodes 5 and 6 implied otherwise.

What about either of those contradicts lore from StarCraft or Brood War?

It actually contradicts lore that was established by Wings of Liberty. The current writers can't even remain consistent in their own established SC2 universe.

Neither of these actually happened.

You're right, I also refuse to acknowledge that WoL's prophecy arc actually exists.

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I dunno...part of me just thinks you're just screwing with Telenil. lol

[ragnarok]

You're right, I also refuse to acknowledge that WoL's prophecy arc actually exists.

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I dunno...part of me just thinks you're just screwing with Telenil. lol

Well, to say that there was a prophecy arc, Raynor didn't really EXPERIENCE it, he merely saw Zeratul's memories. So technically that was a Protoss episode arc.

The only thing that even REMOTELY resembles the prophecy arc in WoL that Raynor experienced FIRST HAND was at Castanar.

But then, if you hadn't played the Zhakul mission, Raynor's convo with Matt would only be confusing as to what the hell Mengsk was playing with.

[FanaticTemplar]

The Dominion's downward spiral throughout Episodes 5 and 6 implied otherwise.

But the Dominion was reinstated with Mengsk as its leader and in command of a massive fleet by Omega. If he could rebuild that well between True Colors and Omega there is absolutely no doubt he could rebuild much better in the five years between Brood War and Wings of Liberty. Not that this is sane, but it's actually less ridiculous than the lore established by Brood War.

It actually contradicts lore that was established by Wings of Liberty. The current writers can't even remain consistent in their own established SC2 universe.

Oh, okay, I actually misread that post. I apologise.

You're right, I also refuse to acknowledge that WoL's prophecy arc actually exists.

No, I mean they actually never happened. Those are fan interpretations of events, and not only are they not the sole possible interpretations, in many cases they're not the most obvious. I'm pretty sure the people at Blizzard have actually explicitly stated that the "good Overmind" interpretation is wrong.

Not that the whole Prophecy arc isn't absolutely terrible, of course.

[ragnarok]

But the Dominion was reinstated with Mengsk as its leader and in command of a massive fleet by Omega. If he could rebuild that well between True Colors and Omega there is absolutely no doubt he could rebuild much better in the five years between Brood War and Wings of Liberty. Not that this is sane, but it's actually less ridiculous than the lore established by Brood War.

It's not that. If you recall in the briefing BEFORE Omega happened, Mengsk told Kerrigan that he called in a few favors. It's not much, but it DID seem to imply he turned to Kel-Morian and Umojan help and asked for their contributions.

Remember, the KMC and UP turned away from the Dominion AFTER the Brood War, which means at this point in time, they were still allied with the Dominion.

No, I mean they actually never happened. Those are fan interpretations of events, and not only are they not the sole possible interpretations, in many cases they're not the most obvious. I'm pretty sure the people at Blizzard have actually explicitly stated that the "good Overmind" interpretation is wrong.

Not that the whole Prophecy arc isn't absolutely terrible, of course.

For this, it depends on just what Zeratul still hasn't revealed. I have a gut feeling he extracted more memories from the Overmind than he told Raynor in WoL, as well as Kerrigan in HotS.

More than likely the primal Zerg on Zerus was something he got TRACES of or something. It's possible Zeratul got (from the Overmind's memories) of what the Zerg were before the whole corruption, but some escaped Amon's grasp.

[Turalyon]

@Telenil

I hear you. I'm largely of the same opinion really. It's just that I'm trying to put some distance from my dislike of the whole thing and trying to look at it from another angle. So yeah, it's all gonna be along hypothetical lines and theorycrafting. It's all we can do with this mess we've been given afterall.

But the Dominion was reinstated with Mengsk as its leader and in command of a massive fleet by Omega. If he could rebuild that well between True Colors and Omega there is absolutely no doubt he could rebuild much better in the five years between Brood War and Wings of Liberty. Not that this is sane, but it's actually less ridiculous than the lore established by Brood War.

A fleet that was ultimately smashed to pieces. You also have to keep in mind that this was his last gamble and that he probably used up all his concessions to get access to such a fleet. Not only is he indebted to those people that lent him that hardware, he would have no way of paying them back (being deposed and revealed to be a weak and ineffectual leader that he is). Mengsk had pretty much hamstrung himself at that point when he lost in Omega.

No, I mean they actually never happened. Those are fan interpretations of events, and not only are they not the sole possible interpretations, in many cases they're not the most obvious. I'm pretty sure the people at Blizzard have actually explicitly stated that the "good Overmind" interpretation is wrong.

"Where there's smoke...." One can't blame one's interpretation if what the available stuff at hand suggests that this may well indeed be a highly probable interpretation. That they had to state that the "good Overmind" interpretations is wrong at all is testament to that.

[ragnarok]

@Telenil
"Where there's smoke...." One can't blame one's interpretation if what the available stuff at hand suggests that this may well indeed be a highly probable interpretation. That they had to state that the "good Overmind" interpretations is wrong at all is testament to that.

Actually Turalyon, for once even Blizzard admitted this in the Q and A panels for post WoL.

They felt they should have worded it better so Tassadar should have told Zeratul the Overmind's plan for Kerrigan was only to save the Zerg from extinction and that's it.

Mengsk had pretty much hamstrung himself at that point when he lost in Omega.

Yes he did, but this is why I believe he had set up the government so he had ALL the power. If you remove him, all you'd get is chaos and anarchy.

Now sure, there are plenty who might have taken that chance if that was the ONLY thing, but it wasn't.

At the IMMEDIATE end of the Brood War, no one expected Kerrigan to just gather the swarm, return to Char, and disappear from sight for the next 4 years. Therefore, from the Dominion civilians' POV, the threat of another Zerg invasion was very real. If that's true, then they needed leadership.

Yes, Mengsk already botched this since he was defeated by the UED and Korhal fell, but at that point there was simply no other leader available.

The bottom line I'm getting at here is that for the Dominion people, this was the fate of everyone in the sector, not just a handful of people. For those that hated Mengsk and wanted him gone, this was just too huge a gamble, and the risks are just too high to take.

[Telenil]

Yes he did, but this is why I believe he had set up the government so he had ALL the power. If you remove him, all you'd get is chaos and anarchy.

Now sure, there are plenty who might have taken that chance if that was the ONLY thing, but it wasn't.

At the IMMEDIATE end of the Brood War, no one expected Kerrigan to just gather the swarm, return to Char, and disappear from sight for the next 4 years. Therefore, from the Dominion civilians' POV, the threat of another Zerg invasion was very real. If that's true, then they needed leadership.

Yes, Mengsk already botched this since he was defeated by the UED and Korhal fell, but at that point there was simply no other leader available.

The bottom line I'm getting at here is that for the Dominion people, this was the fate of everyone in the sector, not just a handful of people. For those that hated Mengsk and wanted him gone, this was just too huge a gamble, and the risks are just too high to take.

That works both ways: you could argue that the Terran Sector needs a strong leader or all is lost, and thus that a dictator who was reinstalled by alien powers, and then owned by the Zerg twice, is clearly not the man. By Omega, they have tried "let's all cooperate under Arcturus", and it didn't work.

The only named characters outside of the Raiders are Arcturus, Valerian and Warfield, but that doesn't mean that no one in the entire Dominion, Combine and Protectorate could possibly have replaced Arcturus. He had been Emperor for a few months at most, which arguably made him less experienced than surviving Confederate or Kel-Morian leaders.

Blizzard suffered the same problem with the WC universe. WC3 had so many lore conflicts and inconsistencies with WC1 and WC2 that it was impossible for Blizzard to justify it.

What are you refering to? The largest "retcon" was the demons manipulating the orcs, but Warcraft 2 remains valid as the orc and human point of view. The orcs weren't mind controlled, their leaders were given power that made them more or less addicted to conflict, put against the Alliance and largely left on their own, especially after Doomhammer murdered the warlocks.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if, say, Amon's plan had been to wait until the Overmind produced protoss-zerg hybrid, and only then reveal himself (discard the prophecy entirely). That wouldn't really be a contradiction with the Zerg campaign.

[Turalyon]

That works both ways: you could argue that the Terran Sector needs a strong leader or all is lost, and thus that a dictator who was reinstalled by alien powers, and then owned by the Zerg twice, is clearly not the man. By Omega, they have tried "let's all cooperate under Arcturus", and it didn't work.

The only named characters outside of the Raiders are Arcturus, Valerian and Warfield, but that doesn't mean that no one in the entire Dominion, Combine and Protectorate could possibly have replaced Arcturus. He had been Emperor for a few months at most, which arguably made him less experienced than surviving Confederate or Kel-Morian leaders.

Very much this! If BW showed Mengsk actually leading the Terrans competently, then Rag's theories would have some traction. Given that Mengsk had lost so much face throughout BW, one really has to stretch and make up idealistic reasons to ever explain how he got back his power let alone improve things over the span of 4 years in a way that outstripped the developments made by the Confederacy, who in comparison held power for nearly two centuries and yet share a similar ethos and style in governing.

Saying that Mengsk's continued existence and power going into Sc2 is justified because he showed smarts in Sc1 (which itself can be debated in light of what happens with his character in BW) and because he could whip up a fleet for the final battle would mean that you've have to willfully ignore the other overt things like his underlying superficial nature and actual incompetence he displays in BW.

[FanaticTemplar]

A fleet that was ultimately smashed to pieces. You also have to keep in mind that this was his last gamble and that he probably used up all his concessions to get access to such a fleet. Not only is he indebted to those people that lent him that hardware, he would have no way of paying them back (being deposed and revealed to be a weak and ineffectual leader that he is). Mengsk had pretty much hamstrung himself at that point when he lost in Omega.

Except that's my point. Mengsk builds the Dominion from the shattered remnants of the old Confederacy, then gets his power completely broken by the UED, then becomes relevant again, then gets broken and abandoned among the ashes of his empire by Kerrigan, then gets relevant again and broken again in Omega, all this occurs in the span of, what, one month? And people are absolutely fine with this, but then it's apparently a plot hole that he's able to do this once in five years? Do you have any evidence that his defeat in Omega is more serious-for-real-we-mean-it-this-time than the others? By all appearances, this is the least insane of all the times Mengsk has bounced back.

"Where there's smoke...." One can't blame one's interpretation if what the available stuff at hand suggests that this may well indeed be a highly probable interpretation. That they had to state that the "good Overmind" interpretations is wrong at all is testament to that.

Not at all. I've argued on this site repeatedly about the retcon of the Protoss victory on Aiur. This is stuff that is explicitly mentioned in the StarCraft epilogue, yet fans were willing to perform all kinds of acrobatics to explain how it wasn't a contradiction from Obi-Wan's point of view. Yet the interpretation of a 'good Overmind' must be firmly held onto despite it being only possibly implied, and despite being clearly refuted by the authours?

[ragnarok]

That works both ways: you could argue that the Terran Sector needs a strong leader or all is lost, and thus that a dictator who was reinstalled by alien powers, and then owned by the Zerg twice, is clearly not the man. By Omega, they have tried "let's all cooperate under Arcturus", and it didn't work.

The only named characters outside of the Raiders are Arcturus, Valerian and Warfield, but that doesn't mean that no one in the entire Dominion, Combine and Protectorate could possibly have replaced Arcturus. He had been Emperor for a few months at most, which arguably made him less experienced than surviving Confederate or Kel-Morian leaders.

My point exactly. So, from both Raynor and Kerrigan's POV, the Dominion civilians are nothing but a bunch of cowards who are too damn weak to do anything except support Mengsk all the way.

This was why Raynor didn't feel any regret upon the Media Blitz for his actions, and Kerrigan too felt although the mass slaughter was wrong, it never had to come to that for the civilians on the Dominion worlds if they had risen up against Mengsk sooner.

Very much this! If BW showed Mengsk actually leading the Terrans competently, then Rag's theories would have some traction. Given that Mengsk had lost so much face throughout BW, one really has to stretch and make up idealistic reasons to ever explain how he got back his power let alone improve things over the span of 4 years in a way that outstripped the developments made by the Confederacy, who in comparison held power for nearly two centuries and yet share a similar ethos and style in governing.

Saying that Mengsk's continued existence and power going into Sc2 is justified because he showed smarts in Sc1 (which itself can be debated in light of what happens with his character in BW) and because he could whip up a fleet for the final battle would mean that you've have to willfully ignore the other overt things like his underlying superficial nature and actual incompetence he displays in BW.

I know that, and this is why to all the Dominion people that hated Mengsk out there, I just don't understand why the hell they DIDN'T take the chance. Sure, Mengsk kept things in good order, but the only reason humanity survived AT ALL after the Brood War was because Kerrigan took the swarm back to Char and disappeared from sight for the next 4 years.

In other words, humanity's "survival" was due to sheer dumb luck, not any of Mengsk's skills or anything like that.

From a Dominion civilian's POV, that would mean that all Mengsk's actions have done is lead them to die slower and more painfully, not salvation.