Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[FanaticTemplar]

Can or can't? Not sure which you meant there. Besides, it should be obvious by now that the ending is not as clear-cut/definitive as you would like to make it out as, since the very fact that differing opinions and interpretations have surfaced in spite of this so called well-defined ending.

Differing opinions and interpretations of the veracity of the Moon landing have surfaced, doesn't change what happened. Omega shows Mengsk as a major power. The epilogue clearly states that he's planning to rebuild the Dominion. There's no reason to interpret these as meaning the opposite of what they do unless you start with that assumption - and if you started with that assumption, then it's not Wings of Liberty that's at fault for falsifying it, it's Brood War that's at fault for not being even clearer in disabusing you of that notion.

Also, Blizz has already set it's own precedent in assuming a perspective shift in the way how BW turns out. We were led to believe that the Zerg were crippled/changed irrevocably at Sc1's end but that turned out to be "fanfiction" because the Zerg shrugged it off by being able to take over the home of their most dangerous adversary without the Overmind and then were able to reform the Overmind as if nothing happened to them at all. Then again, in this fashion, I suppose that this does make Mengsk's reappearance in WoL consistent since it conveniently shrugs off his defeats as having no consequence as well.

Just because Blizzard has retconned stuff before doesn't mean that the accusation that Wings of Liberty didn't retcon this has any merit. You know, two wrongs don't make a right and such things.

Sure, you can have that on technicality - you're way too keen on semantics

You're the one trying to equate Mengsk actually acting in the capacity of Emperor of the Dominion with his role as punching bag in Brood War because he technically had the title.

when all I was saying was that we could extrapolate his entire character from previous direct and indirect measures without having to know he has the word "Emperor" in front of his name to gain anymore insight.

Since Aldaris, Raynor and Tychus are pretty much the only characters in the entire series to undergo any real character development, the fact that you could 'extrapolate his entire character' doesn't sound like much of a criticism, it's just saying that he was consistently written. Certainly not reason enough to remove him.

I don't think you've really thought this notion through. You claim you didn't want Mengsk involved in StarCraft II because of incompetence. Do you think that the Blizzard writers intended to make Mengsk appear so incompetent to you?

As Sc2 goes on to show, even as Emperor there's no new insight into his character beyond him being a shallow mustache-twirler - and we knew that already since BW.

Sure, give me a quote that tells me how he treated his people in Brood War.

I vascillate at times depending on which context we're looking at. I like Mengsk's portrayal, but only in Sc1.

And you do this despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm, yet somehow I can't like him in Wings of Liberty despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm?

[Gradius]

Omega shows special interest groups as a major power.

Fixed.

Actually, that's still wrong. Because 1/3 of a force that lost to a single Cerebrate is not a "major power". Neither does Mengsk's mere presence at the battle make him a major power. His ability to indebt himself by scrounging up a last-minute fleet is indicative of nothing. If Raynor decided to fulfill his promise and showed up at Omega, and the map was divided into four parts instead of three, guess what, that doesn't make Raynor a major power, let alone comparable in scope to whatever Protoss or UED fleet remnants showed up at Omega.

The epilogue clearly states that he's planning to rebuild the Dominion.

You keep trying to find evidence for your position that doesn't exist (confirmation bias). It also clearly states Artanis and the protoss survivors started rebuilding their "once glorious civilization". Would it have made any sense to ignore their military defeats and have them to revert to the former power of their "once glorious civilization"? No? Well that's great, because it didn't happen to them in SC2. It happened to Mengsk, and that's why we're bitching about that instead.

Nobody here has an issue with him "planning" to rebuild. It's the degree of rebuilding that's ridiculous. You're basically saying that the writers are allowed to get away with whatever they want. He could have shown up in SC2 ruling the known universe. Who cares? It says right the epilogue that he "planned to rebuild". And it's been four years! That explains everything! Just as long as we believe that the other terran factions are docile and ambitionless weaklings who enjoy being ruled and subjugated! :P

[Turalyon]

Perhaps, but it's far more intelligent than looking like an evil bastard and subsequently using fear to control already enraged subordinates.

Mengsk's one major skill is manipulating fear in others to get them to do his bidding. When they don't respond to that, then he gets angry. Just look at how Duke was "recruited". He resorts to anger when there is no other recourse.

Besides, he was already leaving the planet, losing a few transports while bad is nowhere near as bad than losing your support.

Ah, but Mengsk wasn't expecting to lose support by not doing so. I mean really, anyone who has followed Mengsk up to this point would have already made many a severe moral lapse at an earlier point (eg: Antiga) and still they yet continue to follow him despite all of that. Compared to that, what's losing a few soldiers who knew that the mission was likely going to be suicide anyway (they were sandwiched between two alien forces afterall)?

He doesn't really, he didn't even make an attempt to rescue them, nor did he even imply that they fought bravely, he just left. "Oh I left behind some paper shreds oh well, it's garbage anyway, such is life..."

It was a callous and unnecessary, (which is a running theme in SC-HotS evidently)

Well, if you're willing to read into Mengsk's outburst at Raynor's belligerence against him where he talks about the many sacrifices he had to make, one could argue that he does indeed feel every loss that he's taken at some level but he can't and won't let that get in the way of what needs to be done. It's a very pragmatic view to be sure and is often aligned with being "evil", but really, it's often a very similar trait that more virtuous/good heroes possess as well. Mengsk in Sc1 reminds me of Watchmen's Ozymandias - he is clearly villainous in action but not without proper cause and perceived ultimate benefit for the rest of humanity.

Omega shows Mengsk as a major power. The epilogue clearly states that he's planning to rebuild the Dominion. There's no reason to interpret these as meaning the opposite of what they do unless you start with that assumption - and if you started with that assumption, then it's not Wings of Liberty that's at fault for falsifying it, it's Brood War that's at fault for not being even clearer in disabusing you of that notion.

We've covered this before (and again, Gradius has touched on the same things I've already mentioned many pages ago): whether Mengsk is a major power is debatable, planning to rebuild does not mean he necessarily will rebuild or that he even can. Why is this questionable you ask? Because it's something do with having a measure of consequence and acknowledgement of things that happened to Mengsk up to that point. There's verisimilitude in that. Either way, something has gone wrong along the line, evidently. Whether it started happening in BW or WoL doesn't matter since some feel there's an apparent disconnect.

Just because Blizzard has retconned stuff before doesn't mean that the accusation that Wings of Liberty didn't retcon this has any merit. You know, two wrongs don't make a right and such things.

I thought we were talking about "assumed perspective shifts" not about actual retcons.

You're the one trying to equate Mengsk actually acting in the capacity of Emperor of the Dominion with his role as punching bag in Brood War because he technically had the title.

I was pretty blase about it though.

At least my throwaway remark is more reasonable compared to yours where you imply that Mengsk wasn't acting as the Emperor of the Dominion between end of Rebel Yell in Sc1 through to WoL and that that's the reason why we can't judge his capability of him as an Emperor there.

Since Aldaris, Raynor and Tychus are pretty much the only characters in the entire series to undergo any real character development, the fact that you could 'extrapolate his entire character' doesn't sound like much of a criticism, it's just saying that he was consistently written. Certainly not reason enough to remove him.

Character stagnation is often plenty of reason enough for writers to kill the character off or shift him away from the lime-light sooner.

You claim you didn't want Mengsk involved in StarCraft II because of incompetence. Do you think that the Blizzard writers intended to make Mengsk appear so incompetent to you?

I have no real idea what Blizz intended or not. All I know is that Mengsk has undergone either character stagnation or character de-evolution. Neither of which I really want to see again.

Sure, give me a quote that tells me how he treated his people in Brood War.

No need. I can easily extrapolate how he treats the people around him, no matter how loyal they are, in Sc1 to know well enough that he would show utter disdain for anyone else.

And you do this despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm, yet somehow I can't like him in Wings of Liberty despite Brood War and Heart of the Swarm?

I've never denied you from liking Mengsk in WoL or wished that you hadn't. Like away for all I care! I was just offering my opinion on Mengsk being superfluous and un-interesting character in WoL. Feel free to disagree.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Thank you, Ret, that was getting on my nerves.

@Turalyon

"Mengsk's one major skill is manipulating fear in others to get them to do his bidding. When they don't respond to that, then he gets angry. Just look at how Duke was "recruited". He resorts to anger when there is no other recourse."

I know, and it only works so often, it doesn't work on people that you've already pissed off, though at least not usually.

Besides Duke was more afraid of being ripped apart by the Zerg than, anything else.

"Ah, but Mengsk wasn't expecting to lose support by not doing so. I mean really, anyone who has followed Mengsk up to this point would have already made many a severe moral lapse at an earlier point (eg: Antiga) and still they yet continue to follow him despite all of that. Compared to that, what's losing a few soldiers who knew that the mission was likely going to be suicide anyway (they were sandwiched between two alien forces afterall)?"

But he had to have noticed Raynor and Kerrigan becoming pretty close, you don't just let one die and expect that the other is going to go "well we both committed terrorism oh well" No, he should have known Raynor would be pissed off and given the circumstances should have realized that Raynor believed he was next.

"Well, if you're willing to read into Mengsk's outburst at Raynor's belligerence against him where he talks about the many sacrifices he had to make, one could argue that he does indeed feel every loss that he's taken at some level but he can't and won't let that get in the way of what needs to be done. It's a very pragmatic view to be sure and is often aligned with being "evil", but really, it's often a very similar trait that more virtuous/good heroes possess as well. Mengsk in Sc1 reminds me of Watchmen's Ozymandias - he is clearly villainous in action but not without proper cause and perceived ultimate benefit for the rest of humanity."

But there are less "douchey" ways for him to state that, that he can't let a few deaths get in his way of "protecting" humanity, I have no issue with Pragmatism (it's VERY efficient) it's just I have a problem with how he presented himself, he pretty much turned into Saturday Morning cartoon villain right after New Gettysburg and that could've alienated more than just Raynor and a few hundred "Rangers"

hell, he wouldn't even need to sacrifice ships as I said previously (that would've near guarnteed loyalty but still) he could've just spun it as a "heroic sacrifice' and that there was nothing to be done. him going off the deep end and claiming he will rule "THIS SECTOR!! OR SEE IT BURNT TO ASHES AROUND ME" was a really dumb thing for him to do.

[Turalyon]

I know, and it only works so often, it doesn't work on people that you've already pissed off, though at least not usually.

You have to put yourself in Mengsk's shoes. From his point of view, Raynor is the one being irrational especially after all that they've done together. It sounds warped to you and me, but to Mengsk, he probably genuinely didn't think that there would be anything worth getting angry about since everyone had the moral flexibility to keep continuing after he consigned Antiga to being overrun with Zerg. This in comparison is next to nothing.

But he had to have noticed Raynor and Kerrigan becoming pretty close, you don't just let one die and expect that the other is going to go "well we both committed terrorism oh well" No, he should have known Raynor would be pissed off and given the circumstances should have realized that Raynor believed he was next.

I don't mind the idea of Raynor and Kerrigan being "close" but I always figured their relationship to be more on the level of camaraderie amongst soldiers than anything else. Besides, there's a lot of presumptions you're making in regards to Mengsk. "He had to have noticed" and "he should have known" is easy to say in hindsight when we have all the facts laid out in front of us.

But there are less "douchey" ways for him to state that, that he can't let a few deaths get in his way of "protecting" humanity, I have no issue with Pragmatism (it's VERY efficient) it's just I have a problem with how he presented himself, he pretty much turned into Saturday Morning cartoon villain right after New Gettysburg and that could've alienated more than just Raynor and a few hundred "Rangers"

Mengsk was always kind of "douchey" though - look at how he strings Kerrigan along and how he handles Duke in Rebel Yell. Mengsk's outburst is only in response to Raynor's seemingly sudden (to Mengsk that is) open hostility. If Raynor had concerns, he should have come to Mengsk initially instead of hiding behind and hoping Kerrigan would stand up for herself. Of course, Mengsk probably would've found a way to remove Raynor even earlier if he did so, the fact that Raynor had remained silent was proof to Mengsk that he was silently complicit with what he was doing.

hell, he wouldn't even need to sacrifice ships as I said previously (that would've near guarnteed loyalty but still) he could've just spun it as a "heroic sacrifice' and that there was nothing to be done. him going off the deep end and claiming he will rule "THIS SECTOR!! OR SEE IT BURNT TO ASHES AROUND ME" was a really dumb thing for him to do.

Mengsk does speak of sacrifices - it's just that Raynor doesn't believe him/has differing values as to what constitutes sacrifice.

As to that infamous line, it's easy to take that out of context. Mengsk sees himself as being the only one capable of steering the Terrans given all the sacrifices and the pragmatic things he's forced himself to do already. If not for him doing these things and taking control, the Terrans would surely be "burnt to ashes" as the only alternative. He may have a point since the Confederates showed that they were ill-equipped to handle the Zerg and Protoss.

[FanaticTemplar]

Fixed.

Actually, that's still wrong. Because 1/3 of a force that lost to a single Cerebrate is not a "major power". Neither does Mengsk's mere presence at the battle make him a major power. His ability to indebt himself by scrounging up a last-minute fleet is indicative of nothing.

Your fanfiction is indicative of nothing. An endgame fleet is indicative of something. It baffles me that you are operating on a narrative basis in which anyone can "beg" their way into an endgame fleet in a metter of days, but rebuilding an empire first built in months in five years is unthinkable.

If Raynor decided to fulfill his promise and showed up at Omega, and the map was divided into four parts instead of three, guess what, that doesn't make Raynor a major power, let alone comparable in scope to whatever Protoss or UED fleet remnants showed up at Omega.

If the lore describes it as a fourth fleet without feeling any need to distinguish it from the other three? Kinda does actually. Turalyon already pointed out that I was wrong to think otherwise during Eye of the Storm.

You keep trying to find evidence for your position that doesn't exist (confirmation bias).

That would be you. Me, I just read the text. The game says that Mengsk is planning the reconstruction of his Dominion? I understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion.

It also clearly states Artanis and the protoss survivors started rebuilding their "once glorious civilization". Would it have made any sense to ignore their military defeats and have them to revert to the former power of their "once glorious civilization"? No? Well that's great, because it didn't happen to them in SC2. It happened to Mengsk, and that's why we're bitching about that instead.

Mengsk's "glorious civilisation" was built in months and rebuilt in years. If something in there's a problem to you, maybe you should prioritise.

Nobody here has an issue with him "planning" to rebuild. It's the degree of rebuilding that's ridiculous. You're basically saying that the writers are allowed to get away with whatever they want. He could have shown up in SC2 ruling the known universe. Who cares? It says right the epilogue that he "planned to rebuild". And it's been four years! That explains everything! Just as long as we believe that the other terran factions are docile and ambitionless weaklings who enjoy being ruled and subjugated! :P

Desperately grasping at obtuse literalism. Yes, the epilogue said he was "planning" the reconstruction of the Terran Dominion. But who could ever have expected him to put his plans into action? What kind of bizarre individual executes his plans? I mean, sure, looking back the clues were there, but the Blizzard writers wove such a cunning and subtle thread that the dazzling reveal that Arcturus Mengsk actually enacted his plan caught us all by complete surprise!

No, wait, you mean that you expected his plans to fail! Because if there's one thing that's important about an epilogue, which exists to bring closure and wrap up loose ends, it's to be deliberately misleading. After all, if they hadn't brought up Mengsk's plans to rebuild the Dominion, how could we possible have known that... Mengsk planned to rebuild the Dominion, information which is entirely pointless because he failed?

Why is this questionable you ask? Because it's something do with having a measure of consequence and acknowledgement of things that happened to Mengsk up to that point. There's verisimilitude in that.

Except this happens all the time. You brought up Raynor and the Protoss, but to stay on the topic of Mengsk, how is the Dominion being rebuilt from its ashes in five years worse than the Dominion being built on the ashes of the Confederacy in months? The Confederacy suffered far more damage than the Dominion did, yet Mengsk's Dominion is considered a major threat in Brood War. Where's the acknowledgement of the things that happened to the Koprulu Sector? Where's the verisimilitude in that? And where's the twenty page thread of outrage? Like I said, all I want is consistency. If anyone was this upset about every other time this happens I'd be fine with it, but they're obviously not. Hell, you're this upset about Mengsk because you're being desperately literal about how Mengsk supposedly should have spent the next five years "planning", but everyone was perfectly peachy with Brood War actually retconning the Zerg defeat from StarCraft. Again, where's the acknowledgement of things that happened up until that point? Where's the verisimilitude in that?

I thought we were talking about "assumed perspective shifts" not about actual retcons.

Yeah, but you're basically saying that the epilogue has been wrong before, so you don't need to take what it said in Brood War into account.

I was pretty blase about it though.

At least my throwaway remark is more reasonable compared to yours where you imply that Mengsk wasn't acting as the Emperor of the Dominion between end of Rebel Yell in Sc1 through to WoL and that that's the reason why we can't judge his capability of him as an Emperor there.

I'm not saying you can't judge his capability, I'm saying that using him as Emperor in WIngs of Liberty provides a new angle on his character, whereas returning to rebel status would be pointless stagnation. And Adun knows we had enough pointless stagnation in Heart of the Swarm already. Which is ironic, because your next two comments are:

Character stagnation is often plenty of reason enough for writers to kill the character off or shift him away from the lime-light sooner.

I have no real idea what Blizz intended or not. All I know is that Mengsk has undergone either character stagnation or character de-evolution. Neither of which I really want to see again.

Except it isn't. Mengsk served as the primary antagonist for Heart of the Swarm, which is a massive upgrade on his punching bag status from Brood War. And his relationship with Raynor and Kerrigan is a driving force in the plot of both games, which is again a major upgrade on his role in Brood War. But I'm surprised that you don't know whether Mengsk was intended to be incompetent or not in these games. Other characters certainly talk him up a lot, I'm pretty sure they intended him to be a formidable opponent.

No need. I can easily extrapolate how he treats the people around him, no matter how loyal they are, in Sc1 to know well enough that he would show utter disdain for anyone else.

Does he? Didn't you just tell KaiseStratosTygo that:

Mengsk in Sc1 reminds me of Watchmen's Ozymandias - he is clearly villainous in action but not without proper cause and perceived ultimate benefit for the rest of humanity.

And didn't he demonstrate a willingness to save the people of worlds threatened by the Zerg? How do you know he does not merely show disdain for those who stand in his way?

But we're getting away from the point. The argument that a character should be removed because "you can extrapolate how he will act" is not very solid. By that standard, which character isn't pointless? Which character's action do you think I would be unable to extrapolate?

I've never denied you from liking Mengsk in WoL or wished that you hadn't. Like away for all I care! I was just offering my opinion on Mengsk being superfluous and un-interesting character in WoL. Feel free to disagree.

I must have misunderstood then. I wouldn't mind discussing our opinions on Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, but this thread is cluttered enough that I'm mostly trying to stay on topic. Speaking of which, would you mind restating your issue clearly? I know you've already told me, but it's been weeks, so the occasional reminder helps me stay focused .

[Gradius]

Your fanfiction is indicative of nothing. An endgame fleet is indicative of something. It baffles me that you are operating on a narrative basis in which anyone can "beg" their way into an endgame fleet in a metter of days, but rebuilding an empire first built in months in five years is unthinkable.

Because they're not the same thing. Scrounging up a fleet on credit is not remotely sustainable in the long term, whereas building an empire is hard work that requires a solid foundation. Cashing in on favors further destroys that foundation, because instead of using those favors later on for empire building, he used them on the short term for a failed venture that left him with nothing. The only kind of man who would risk everything like that is somebody who has nothing else left to lose. So stop comparing the two.

Same concept I've been reiterating all thread, that just because I can buy a Mercedes on credit even while broke, it doesn't make sense to extrapolate that to me having my own car show in 4 years.

If the lore describes it as a fourth fleet without feeling any need to distinguish it from the other three? Kinda does actually.

No, it doesn't. If the game felt the need to distinguish that it was larger or smaller, then you could make a claim. If the game says nothing, then you have nothing.

That would be you. Me, I just read the text. The game says that Mengsk is planning the reconstruction of his Dominion? I understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion.

Here's the epilogue:

With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled,
Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick
his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his
Terran Dominion...

Artanis and the Protoss survivors returned
to Shakuras to begin rebuilding their once
glorious civilization...

Two questions:
1) If you "understand that all else being equal, Mengsk will rebuild his Dominion", why not the protoss? Says so right there. Yet in all of SC2 they're so glorious that they can't even bother making a single important appearance. Hell, their High Executor can't even defend one of their planets from a terran rebel group and their one battlecruiser.
2) Which one does the epilogue make it sound like is more likely to rebuild? The protoss survivors who returned to Shakuras? Or the guy who's rag-tag fleet was beaten and crippled, who returned to Korhal to "lick his wounds" and "plan" reconstruction? Based on this epilogue alone, I think it's pretty obvious that it's the former, so maybe if I was feeling super generous I could grant that this could be evidence for the former group's rebuilding, but you want to argue that it's actually the latter? No.

Mengsk's "glorious civilisation" was built in months and rebuilt in years. If something in there's a problem to you, maybe you should prioritise.

Stealing leadership from the Confederacy isn't the same as building an empire. That's like taking credit for building all of America upon being elected President.

But after Korhal got wasted by the UED, then the zerg, then the zerg again, that's a different story. Arcturus basically squandered what he inherited from the Confederacy. Explain why anybody in their right mind would side with his failure of a fledgling government at that point over tried and tested factions that stood the test of time like Umoja or the KMC?

Bush became the worst president ever and his approval ratings plummeted because of the Iraq war and recession. But why would that apply to Arcturus? I'm sure everyone would just forgive him for all his failures! Because that sounds really consistent with reality.

Desperately grasping at obtuse literalism. Yes, the epilogue said he was "planning" the reconstruction of the Terran Dominion. But who could ever have expected him to put his plans into action? What kind of bizarre individual executes his plans? I mean, sure, looking back the clues were there, but the Blizzard writers wove such a cunning and subtle thread that the dazzling reveal that Arcturus Mengsk actually enacted his plan caught us all by complete surprise!

No, wait, you mean that you expected his plans to fail! Because if there's one thing that's important about an epilogue, which exists to bring closure and wrap up loose ends, it's to be deliberately misleading. After all, if they hadn't brought up Mengsk's plans to rebuild the Dominion, how could we possible have known that... Mengsk planned to rebuild the Dominion, information which is entirely pointless because he failed?

Why hasn't Artanis rebuilt the Protoss' glorious civilization as promised by the infallible epilogue? Because the epilogue listed character motivations, not future facts. It's a double standard. You're trying to twist evidence where none exists to fit your position.

[Turalyon]

how is the Dominion being rebuilt from its ashes in five years worse than the Dominion being built on the ashes of the Confederacy in months?

The circumstances and contexts are different. The Sons of Korhal swooped in to fill the gap left by the Confederacy because they were in the best position to at the time since they created that opportunity themselves. When the Dominion fell, they left a void that they couldn't easily fill back themselves because they were not in a good position at the time and that it was not an opportunity they created for themselves. As I asked previously, why couldn't the old remnants of the Confeds have taken back the reign instead of Mengsk/Dominion when the opportunity presented itself? The UED was possibly propping them up since they were assisting Duran's team - could there have been more? Wouldn't they be in a better position to take power again, especially when Mengsk is left with nothing and then goes to squander whatever forces he has left on yet another failed venture?

Besides, the Dominion didn't really feel that strong to me after having taken over the reigns of the Confederacy what with all the Terran worlds still being wasted and what power they did show (through Duke's anemic displays) was quite ineffectual. We only had Mengsk's propaganda speech to go on.

The Confederacy suffered far more damage than the Dominion did, yet Mengsk's Dominion is considered a major threat in Brood War. Where's the acknowledgement of the things that happened to the Koprulu Sector? Where's the verisimilitude in that? And where's the twenty page thread of outrage?

Mengsk, as of the end of Sc1/start of BW, is only considered a major threat to the UED at that specific current time. Considering Mengsk's also the first step in their plan of gaining more traction in the sector, that makes sense that they should focus on him first. It's not my fault that you felt that the UED's focus on Mengsk gave you the impression that the Dominion were really strong to begin with.

Hell, you're this upset about Mengsk because you're being desperately literal about how Mengsk supposedly should have spent the next five years "planning", but everyone was perfectly peachy with Brood War actually retconning the Zerg defeat from StarCraft. Again, where's the acknowledgement of things that happened up until that point? Where's the verisimilitude in that?

Eh, I'm not that upset about Mengsk. Just saying that planning doesn't constitute as hard evidence that he can/did do it. Given that Mengsk bends so easily in the face of a light breeze as shown in BW, one can hardly be blamed for not having faith in his actual ability to come back in a significant way. The "Zerg retconning of their defeat in BW" is only readily apparent when the cerebrates appear on Shakuras and being shown to be generally OP from that point on. Before that, Escape from Aiur acknowledges the epilogue of Sc1 fairly well, I think.

Yeah, but you're basically saying that the epilogue has been wrong before, so you don't need to take what it said in Brood War into account.

The thing is, it's hard to know what to take into account at all. It also says in the BW epilogue that we don't hear from Raynor since, but we invariably do because he goes straight to attacking Mengsk and then steadily lose throughtout the next 4 years.

I'm saying that using him as Emperor in WIngs of Liberty provides a new angle on his character, whereas returning to rebel status would be pointless stagnation.

Raynor is forevermore a rebel and yet that does nothing to crimp his character development according to you. Being of a particular status does not necessarily relegate one's character to pointless stagnation.

Mengsk served as the primary antagonist for Heart of the Swarm, which is a massive upgrade on his punching bag status from Brood War. And his relationship with Raynor and Kerrigan is a driving force in the plot of both games, which is again a major upgrade on his role in Brood War. But I'm surprised that you don't know whether Mengsk was intended to be incompetent or not in these games. Other characters certainly talk him up a lot, I'm pretty sure they intended him to be a formidable opponent.

Mengsk was already an antagonist to Raynor and Kerrigan in Rebel Yell and their relationship was the driving force of that plot as well. WoL doesn't really expound much more than what was already laid out then. Mengsk's character is treated pretty much the same way in WoL as it is in BW: he's talked up as being formidable but he really isn't. It all seems pretty samey to me.

Does he? Didn't you just tell KaiseStratosTygo that:

And didn't he demonstrate a willingness to save the people of worlds threatened by the Zerg? How do you know he does not merely show disdain for those who stand in his way?

Anyone who thinks they know what is best and acts on behalf of everyone is showing disdain to those very people and are doing it just as much (or most definitely, more) for themselves as they are for others. I can make that judgement of both Mengsk and Ozymandias. How they rationalise it in their own heads is another matter. As I said, I can understand how a character reasons without having to sympathise with them.

The argument that a character should be removed because "you can extrapolate how he will act" is not very solid. By that standard, which character isn't pointless? Which character's action do you think I would be unable to extrapolate?

Mengsk is predictable as a character now. He revealed himself to be a self-serving a-hole despite his rhetoric and everyone (the audience I mean) seems to have latched onto that. BW goes on to show this selfishness plus the fact that he is now also inept. What more is there really to see?

I wouldn't mind discussing our opinions on Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, but this thread is cluttered enough that I'm mostly trying to stay on topic. Speaking of which, would you mind restating your issue clearly? I know you've already told me, but it's been weeks, so the occasional reminder helps me stay focused .

I think we've drifted off topic a long time ago. I've kind of lost my train of thought in the intervening days too, so I'm not sure which particular issue you want me to clarify...

[KaiserStratosTygo]

You have to put yourself in Mengsk's shoes. From his point of view, Raynor is the one being irrational especially after all that they've done together. It sounds warped to you and me, but to Mengsk, he probably genuinely didn't think that there would be anything worth getting angry about since everyone had the moral flexibility to keep continuing after he consigned Antiga to being overrun with Zerg. This in comparison is next to nothing.



I don't mind the idea of Raynor and Kerrigan being "close" but I always figured their relationship to be more on the level of camaraderie amongst soldiers than anything else. Besides, there's a lot of presumptions you're making in regards to Mengsk. "He had to have noticed" and "he should have known" is easy to say in hindsight when we have all the facts laid out in front of us.



Mengsk was always kind of "douchey" though - look at how he strings Kerrigan along and how he handles Duke in Rebel Yell. Mengsk's outburst is only in response to Raynor's seemingly sudden (to Mengsk that is) open hostility. If Raynor had concerns, he should have come to Mengsk initially instead of hiding behind and hoping Kerrigan would stand up for herself. Of course, Mengsk probably would've found a way to remove Raynor even earlier if he did so, the fact that Raynor had remained silent was proof to Mengsk that he was silently complicit with what he was doing.



Mengsk does speak of sacrifices - it's just that Raynor doesn't believe him/has differing values as to what constitutes sacrifice.

As to that infamous line, it's easy to take that out of context. Mengsk sees himself as being the only one capable of steering the Terrans given all the sacrifices and the pragmatic things he's forced himself to do already. If not for him doing these things and taking control, the Terrans would surely be "burnt to ashes" as the only alternative. He may have a point since the Confederates showed that they were ill-equipped to handle the Zerg and Protoss.

#1 If I were Mengsk I wouldn't alienate newer members, or at least I would've let him assist Kerrigan and they die together on Tarsonis (or infested whatever)

Point is, there were so many other ways that could've worked in his favor, but he let anger control him.

#2 But it's not hindsight, a good leader should know if his soldiers are fratinizing with eachother, Mengsk would have to pretty neglegent not to notice something there.

#3 That's kind of reaching to be honest, most people when told in an angry tone that "I WILL RULE <--- (that word is REALLY important) THIS SECTOR OR SEE IT BURN TO ASHES AROUND ME! Won't think "He's trying to protect us and if he fails we are doomed" no, they'll think "This dude has gone mad, I'm leaving this joint first chance I get"

Not to mention the "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED, NOT BY YOU, OR THE CONFEDERATES OR THE PROTOSS OR ANYONE!" you have to REALLY trust this due to interpret that as anything but madness.

[Turalyon]

#1 If I were Mengsk I wouldn't alienate newer members, or at least I would've let him assist Kerrigan and they die together on Tarsonis (or infested whatever)

Point is, there were so many other ways that could've worked in his favor, but he let anger control him.

Yes, one of those things that could've worked is Raynor being Ok with everything. You can say "I would do this or that" as much as you like but only because you have the benefit of hindsight in knowing that Raynor betrayed Mengsk (from Mengsk's point-of-view, it is indeed an open betrayal). At the time, it could've easily been written that Raynor fell in line and decided to make Kerrigan's sacrifice worth it by helping Mengsk form his Dominion..

#2 But it's not hindsight, a good leader should know if his soldiers are fratinizing with eachother, Mengsk would have to pretty neglegent not to notice something there.

Mengsk cannot have known at that time that Raynor would someday become his greatest sworn enemy and constant thorn in his side. So yes, it is hindsight to think Mengsk should've known better then.

#3 That's kind of reaching to be honest, most people when told in an angry tone that "I WILL RULE <--- (that word is REALLY important) THIS SECTOR OR SEE IT BURN TO ASHES AROUND ME! Won't think "He's trying to protect us and if he fails we are doomed" no, they'll think "This dude has gone mad, I'm leaving this joint first chance I get"

Not to mention the "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED, NOT BY YOU, OR THE CONFEDERATES OR THE PROTOSS OR ANYONE!" you have to REALLY trust this due to interpret that as anything but madness.

Of course it's gonna sound like he's a madman to the casual observer, but to the man himself (which was the perspective I was taking), the rant is not without context and certainly not without justification.