Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[FanaticTemplar]

I meant that in a way that Sc1 felt a lot more open in terms of what that sequel could entail. BW felt a little more hackneyed/tacked on for the sake of forcing a continuation a story where none was to be naturally continued with to begin with.

If you say so, though it bears noting that the actual plot of Brood War had very little to do with the open ending on StarCraft.

Simple. It's a consistent extension of that initial belief that Mengsk was defeated in BW. One doesn't go into it thinking that their "excuses" to justify a certain belief are actually flimsy and certainly not easily interchangeable to justify an opposing viewpoint to the one they were led to believe in the first place.

So you agree that it has nothing to do with what actually happened in the games, and is merely people frustrated by the fact that they were wrong?

What new role? He was Emperor of the Dominion in BW just the same as he is in Sc2. And that somehow isn't a retread whilst him being an underdog again is?

When did Mengsk show up in the role of Emperor of the Dominion in Brood War?

Is it still insightful when Mengsk is clearly wrong (and eventually proven to be) on both counts?

Yes? It has nothing to do with foretelling the future, it's about understanding the people he's dealing with.

Huh, I always thought that Tychus had no real communications (or perhaps wouldn't communicate) with Mengsk throughout WoL because that would be risky to do on a ship full of geniuses - it'd be odd that no-one was able to notice these transmissions throughout the whole time.

Who knows, it wasn't really relevant to the game as released.

[Turalyon]

If you say so, though it bears noting that the actual plot of Brood War had very little to do with the open ending on StarCraft.

Which is why I was happy to see the story end there and then at BW because I could see it starting (as evidenced by BW) to slip off the rails from that point.

So you agree that it has nothing to do with what actually happened in the games, and is merely people frustrated by the fact that they were wrong?

Not exactly. I can only speak for myself, but I would say no to the former and yes to the latter. "What actually happened" in the previous iteration of the game (BW) was what led to the belief in the first place - despite what you have said to the contrary - and people got frustrated when the sequel didn't align with that. It's a matter of being told that you had incorrect expectations in the first place when things seemed to point to that incorrect expectation. It's like the Overmind thing - there was an unstated expectation that it was metaphysically free and then we are told that were wrong to think so at all. Slippery slope begins.

When did Mengsk show up in the role of Emperor of the Dominion in Brood War?

In all his outings ever since he became one at the end of Rebel Yell.

Yes? It has nothing to do with foretelling the future, it's about understanding the people he's dealing with.

There's not that much to understand about where Kerrigan and Raynor come from when all their troubles are directly due to his initial actions against them. What Mengsk means by not being able to be "saved" is most likely in the context of his egomania and that they are not amenable to his manipulations more than any real understanding of them as being flawed. Mengsk hardly understands Kerrigan's motivations at all: he fails to understand that Kerrigan only helped him in BW was to use him in a revenge plot and then presumes to think Kerrigan will stay her hand when he reveals later to holding Raynor captive after declaring he killed him in the first place in HotS. If Mengsk really understood Raynor's fatal flaw (regarding Kerrigan and his redemption complex), he would've used it successfully against him long ago. For example, if WoL was reimagined to have the artifacts being a fake/ploy to make Raynor sacrifice himself against the Zerg thereby ridding himself of a nuisance and without making Raynor look like a martyr but as the real crazy person he really was, then I would've applauded Mengsk but as the writers reveal, Mengsk had no real plans with Raynor and had no idea of how to handle him (not killing him because of fear of making him a martyr? Please, he is the supposed Master of Propaganda! A trifle as this can be swept under the rug at any time).

[FanaticTemplar]

Which is why I was happy to see the story end there and then at BW because I could see it starting (as evidenced by BW) to slip off the rails from that point.

Fair enough.

Not exactly. I can only speak for myself, but I would say no to the former and yes to the latter. "What actually happened" in the previous iteration of the game (BW) was what led to the belief in the first place - despite what you have said to the contrary - and people got frustrated when the sequel didn't align with that. It's a matter of being told that you had incorrect expectations in the first place when things seemed to point to that incorrect expectation. It's like the Overmind thing - there was an unstated expectation that it was metaphysically free and then we are told that were wrong to think so at all. Slippery slope begins.

Except "Brood War" didn't lead to that expectation. His appearance in Omega and that line from the epilogue about planning to rebuild the Dominion set up the expectation that Mengsk will still be in that role in the sequel, which Wings of Liberty lived up to. That's why I said on page 13 that this wasn't about StarCraft II not living up to the promises of Brood War, it's about Brood War not living up to the promises of True Colors. The only way that "Brood War" can leave you with this expectation is if you first pull out the counter-intuitive excuses necessary to explain away Omega and the epilogue, and why should I do that?

In all his outings ever since he became one at the end of Rebel Yell.

Actually, he gets deposed as Emperor of the Dominion during Emperor's Fall, and his first appearance after Rebel Yell is after the conclusion of Emperor's Fall. His role in Brood War is mostly that of punching bag and angry despoiled despot, ironically the only time he might come off as Emperor of the Dominion is during Omega, but that would require acknowledging that this is still his role by then.

There's not that much to understand about where Kerrigan and Raynor come from when all their troubles are directly due to his initial actions against them. What Mengsk means by not being able to be "saved" is most likely in the context of his egomania and that they are not amenable to his manipulations more than any real understanding of them as being flawed. Mengsk hardly understands Kerrigan's motivations at all: he fails to understand that Kerrigan only helped him in BW was to use him in a revenge plot and then presumes to think Kerrigan will stay her hand when he reveals later to holding Raynor captive after declaring he killed him in the first place in HotS. If Mengsk really understood Raynor's fatal flaw (regarding Kerrigan and his redemption complex), he would've used it successfully against him long ago. For example, if WoL was reimagined to have the artifacts being a fake/ploy to make Raynor sacrifice himself against the Zerg thereby ridding himself of a nuisance and without making Raynor look like a martyr but as the real crazy person he really was, then I would've applauded Mengsk but as the writers reveal, Mengsk had no real plans with Raynor and had no idea of how to handle him (not killing him because of fear of making him a martyr? Please, he is the supposed Master of Propaganda! A trifle as this can be swept under the rug at any time).

If you say so. I thought it was pretty subtle, and when I first brought it up in my 'thoughts and impressions' some people thought it might not be there at all. Also, bringing up stuff from Brood War and Heart of the Swarm aren't really relevant in how much I liked Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, just sayin' .

[Turalyon]

Except "Brood War" didn't lead to that expectation.

...to you! To some others, it evidently did.

His appearance in Omega and that line from the epilogue about planning to rebuild the Dominion set up the expectation that Mengsk will still be in that role in the sequel, which Wings of Liberty lived up to. That's why I said on page 13 that this wasn't about StarCraft II not living up to the promises of Brood War, it's about Brood War not living up to the promises of True Colors. The only way that "Brood War" can leave you with this expectation is if you first pull out the counter-intuitive excuses necessary to explain away Omega and the epilogue, and why should I do that?

I'm not asking you to change your opinion. Just trying to shed some light/make you understand the mindset behind this alternate interpretation. You can understand an opposing viewpoint without having to adopt it.

Just as you have conveniently assumed Mengsk to be untouchable because he appears in the last mission and there is some vague dialogue about planning, it doesn't necessarily mean he can given his terrible track record, his complete lack of competence and that Kerrigan still has a vendetta out on him. With only a slight shift in perspective, one can easily think of those things you mentioned as being counter-intuitive excuses to have Mengsk still around for any potential sequels.

Actually, he gets deposed as Emperor of the Dominion during Emperor's Fall, and his first appearance after Rebel Yell is after the conclusion of Emperor's Fall. His role in Brood War is mostly that of punching bag and angry despoiled despot, ironically the only time he might come off as Emperor of the Dominion is during Omega, but that would require acknowledging that this is still his role by then.

We get an indirect measure of Mengsk's capability as Emperor and wielder of all things good and mighty for Terrans in Sc1 through Duke's outings and how Mengsk is defeated by an enemy that initially operated much in the same way he did in Sc1 by undermining the known establishment at the time. If he really was as smart as he let on to be, his time as Emperor (the Terrans were probably the strongest by Sc1's end despite their setbacks) would'nt have been cut short and so easily in the first place.

If you say so. I thought it was pretty subtle, and when I first brought it up in my 'thoughts and impressions' some people thought it might not be there at all. Also, bringing up stuff from Brood War and Heart of the Swarm aren't really relevant in how much I liked Mengsk in Wings of Liberty, just sayin' .

Well, BW and HotS are important in informing us as to what Mengsk, as singular character, is so we can't really ignore them as much as we'd want to. Afterall, I'm very partial to Sc1's version of Mengsk (in isolation from the rest of all the others installments that is) but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one."

I'd say he turned pretty stupid after New Gettysburg, if he really needed to have Kerrigan killed, he should've made it seem like he was trying to rescue her:

KERRIGAN: "This is Kerrigan. We've neutralized the Protoss, but there's a wave of Zerg advancing on this position. We need immediate evac."

MENGSK: "We are sending some of my dropships to your location" (he sends like three relatively empty-ones, they get shot down)

RAYNOR: "Arcturus, those transports sent, got shot down, we've got to send more"

MENGSK: "We can't, Jim, I only have (X) left, i'm sorry but we cannot afford to lose any more." (He actually can't)

RAYNOR: "What? You're not just gonna leave them? "

MENGSK: "If we had more transports I would send them, but we just don't have the numbers, Jim, we have to leave them, if we send the rest of our transports all of us will die" (Kind of a "shaky" possible truth)

RAYNOR: "Then lend me, one, let me go down there myself"

MENGSK: "Very well, but I can't help you if you do this."

RAYNOR: "Yeah, I got it" (Raynor Fails but doesn't rebel from SoK because Mengsk wasn't a prick this time)

That's how it would've went if Arcturus were smart but still an evil bastard.

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"but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one."

I'd say he turned pretty stupid after New Gettysburg, if he really needed to have Kerrigan killed, he should've made it seem like he was trying to rescue her:

KERRIGAN: "This is Kerrigan. We've neutralized the Protoss, but there's a wave of Zerg advancing on this position. We need immediate evac."

MENGSK: "We are sending some of my dropships to your location" (he sends like three relatively empty-ones, they get shot down)

RAYNOR: "Arcturus, those transports sent, got shot down, we've got to send more"

MENGSK: "We can't, Jim, I only have (X) left, i'm sorry but we cannot afford to lose any more." (He actually can't)

RAYNOR: "What? You're not just gonna leave them? "

MENGSK: "If we had more transports I would send them, but we just don't have the numbers, Jim, we have to leave them, if we send the rest of our transports all of us will die" (Kind of a "shaky" possible truth)

RAYNOR: "Then lend me, one, let me go down there myself"

MENGSK: "Very well, but I can't help you if you do this."

RAYNOR: "Yeah, I got it" (Raynor Fails but doesn't rebel from SoK because Mengsk wasn't a prick this time)

That's how it would've went if Arcturus were smart but still an evil bastard.

[Turalyon]

I'd say he turned pretty stupid after New Gettysburg, if he really needed to have Kerrigan killed, he should've made it seem like he was trying to rescue her

I wouldn't say stupid but rather "ruthlessly pragmatic". Mengsk in Sc1 was pretty headstrong and straightforward and not really the type to create a song and dance nor lying (that bit where he says the Zerg were a Confederate weapon was probably what he truly felt to be true at the time) for the sake to keep appearances. Just see how he deals with Duke and the ramifications of that. He bullies Duke into submission and then reassures Raynor's concerns by just saying that's he's in control now - and he is.

That's how it would've went if Arcturus were smart but still an evil bastard.

Depends on what you'd define as "smart". Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to.

I think this is partially why Mengsk's outburst (or "reveal") against Raynor in The Hammer Falls is the way it is. On the surface, it's supposed to telegraph that he is an evil prick but it aligns with his particular mindset and the frustration of having to deal with a sanctimonious fool who is only now suddenly struck down by their conscience. From Mengsk's point-of-view, where was Raynor's conscience when he blithely went along consigning the deaths of all those on Antiga? If he could stomach the loss of potential innocents there (and in comparison, unnecessary loss of life), why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!

[FanaticTemplar]

...to you! To some others, it evidently did.

I'm not asking you to change your opinion. Just trying to shed some light/make you understand the mindset behind this alternate interpretation. You can understand an opposing viewpoint without having to adopt it.

You can have whatever opinion you like, but you can accuse a game of having plot holes because it doesn't adhere to your fanfiction. Why would the writers assume that you have "shifted your perspective" in such a way as to interpret the ending as meaning the opposite of what it says?

Just as you have conveniently assumed Mengsk to be untouchable

And you conveniently assumed Mengsk to be dead after True Colors.

We get an indirect measure of Mengsk's capability as Emperor and wielder of all things good and mighty for Terrans in Sc1 through Duke's outings and how Mengsk is defeated by an enemy that initially operated much in the same way he did in Sc1 by undermining the known establishment at the time. If he really was as smart as he let on to be, his time as Emperor (the Terrans were probably the strongest by Sc1's end despite their setbacks) would'nt have been cut short and so easily in the first place.

So you admit that we never see Mengsk in the role of Emperor of the Dominion?

Well, BW and HotS are important in informing us as to what Mengsk, as singular character, is so we can't really ignore them as much as we'd want to. Afterall, I'm very partial to Sc1's version of Mengsk (in isolation from the rest of all the others installments that is) but it's clear that he's an idiot now and perhaps was one from the beginning, albeit a lucky one.

But you just said that you liked Mengsk's portrayal in Rebel Yell.

[Turalyon]

You can have whatever opinion you like, but you can accuse a game of having plot holes because it doesn't adhere to your fanfiction. Why would the writers assume that you have "shifted your perspective" in such a way as to interpret the ending as meaning the opposite of what it says?

Can or can't? Not sure which you meant there. Besides, it should be obvious by now that the ending is not as clear-cut/definitive as you would like to make it out as, since the very fact that differing opinions and interpretations have surfaced in spite of this so called well-defined ending.

Also, Blizz has already set it's own precedent in assuming a perspective shift in the way how BW turns out. We were led to believe that the Zerg were crippled/changed irrevocably at Sc1's end but that turned out to be "fanfiction" because the Zerg shrugged it off by being able to take over the home of their most dangerous adversary without the Overmind and then were able to reform the Overmind as if nothing happened to them at all. Then again, in this fashion, I suppose that this does make Mengsk's reappearance in WoL consistent since it conveniently shrugs off his defeats as having no consequence as well.

And you conveniently assumed Mengsk to be dead after True Colors.

Only weakened to the point of being on the same level as Raynor is now. Much like how I see how Raynor can conveniently keep coming back with an army and still be considered as an insignificant person in the scheme of things, it doesn't mean that I also expect him to be capable of becoming Emperor of the Dominion as well. But we can with Mengsk because... well just because it seems.

So you admit that we never see Mengsk in the role of Emperor of the Dominion?

Sure, you can have that on technicality - you're way too keen on semantics when all I was saying was that we could extrapolate his entire character from previous direct and indirect measures without having to know he has the word "Emperor" in front of his name to gain anymore insight. As Sc2 goes on to show, even as Emperor there's no new insight into his character beyond him being a shallow mustache-twirler - and we knew that already since BW.

But you just said that you liked Mengsk's portrayal in Rebel Yell.

I vascillate at times depending on which context we're looking at. I like Mengsk's portrayal, but only in Sc1. That means I can still say I liked (emphasis on the past tense) Mengsk's character when viewing him as a whole across all the iterations. The rampant idiocy in all the later game iterations of Mengsk certainly threaten/makes me cynical/colours my perspective quite a bit.

It's like how it is with Darth Vader in the movies. I liked the character in the originals but I would, at times, despise the character as a whole due to the prequels informing me that he's really only evil because he was a teenaged whining brat and that by extension, the Darth Vader in the originals is really just a whining brat under all that armour too.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I wouldn't say stupid but rather "ruthlessly pragmatic". Mengsk in Sc1 was pretty headstrong and straightforward and not really the type to create a song and dance nor lying (that bit where he says the Zerg were a Confederate weapon was probably what he truly felt to be true at the time) for the sake to keep appearances. Just see how he deals with Duke and the ramifications of that. He bullies Duke into submission and then reassures Raynor's concerns by just saying that's he's in control now - and he is.



Depends on what you'd define as "smart". Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to.

I think this is partially why Mengsk's outburst (or "reveal") against Raynor in The Hammer Falls is the way it is. On the surface, it's supposed to telegraph that he is an evil prick but it aligns with his particular mindset and the frustration of having to deal with a sanctimonious fool who is only now suddenly struck down by their conscience. From Mengsk's point-of-view, where was Raynor's conscience when he blithely went along consigning the deaths of all those on Antiga? If he could stomach the loss of potential innocents there (and in comparison, unnecessary loss of life), why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!

"Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to."

Perhaps, but it's far more intelligent than looking like an evil bastard and subsequently using fear to control already enraged subordinates.

Besides, he was already leaving the planet, losing a few transports while bad is nowhere near as bad than losing your support.

"why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!"

He doesn't really, he didn't even make an attempt to rescue them, nor did he even imply that they fought bravely, he just left. "Oh I left behind some paper shreds oh well, it's garbage anyway, such is life..."

It was a callous and unnecessary, (which is a running theme in SC-HotS evidently)

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I wouldn't say stupid but rather "ruthlessly pragmatic". Mengsk in Sc1 was pretty headstrong and straightforward and not really the type to create a song and dance nor lying (that bit where he says the Zerg were a Confederate weapon was probably what he truly felt to be true at the time) for the sake to keep appearances. Just see how he deals with Duke and the ramifications of that. He bullies Duke into submission and then reassures Raynor's concerns by just saying that's he's in control now - and he is.



Depends on what you'd define as "smart". Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to.

I think this is partially why Mengsk's outburst (or "reveal") against Raynor in The Hammer Falls is the way it is. On the surface, it's supposed to telegraph that he is an evil prick but it aligns with his particular mindset and the frustration of having to deal with a sanctimonious fool who is only now suddenly struck down by their conscience. From Mengsk's point-of-view, where was Raynor's conscience when he blithely went along consigning the deaths of all those on Antiga? If he could stomach the loss of potential innocents there (and in comparison, unnecessary loss of life), why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!

"Losing three transports for no discernible gain wouldn't be very efficient or smart from a pragmatic point-of-view. Also, there was no indication that Mengsk prevented Raynor from taking action if he wanted to."

Perhaps, but it's far more intelligent than looking like an evil bastard and subsequently using fear to control already enraged subordinates.

Besides, he was already leaving the planet, losing a few transports while bad is nowhere near as bad than losing your support.

"why balk now at the loss of a single soldier who fought valiantly for a purpose that had a clearly defined risk from the beginning? Mengks was not evil for the sake of being evil in Sc1, he had a point!"

He doesn't really, he didn't even make an attempt to rescue them, nor did he even imply that they fought bravely, he just left. "Oh I left behind some paper shreds oh well, it's garbage anyway, such is life..."

It was a callous and unnecessary, (which is a running theme in SC-HotS evidently)

[RetlocLive]

I don't know when they decide to ever fix it Tygo, but you can get rid of the odd double posting by editing the post and deleting the extra wording.

Just letting ya know.