Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[Turalyon]

So I'll grant that it's possible that the three fleets were not of similar strength, but that doesn't necessarily aid your case, as that could as easily mean that Mengsk's fleet is stronger than the others, hypothetically.

That's where the previous history and context can guide us. Mengsk is unlikely to be strongest given that when he truly was at his most powerful he was rendered powerless by the UED. Given the general nature of Terran weakness and that Mengsk is only one man, how much more force can he bear to bring than the UED who defeated him before or the Protoss, despite having been crippled, are unified in their showing?

And that's not something you can say of Raynor in Eye of the Storm.

Don't be ridiculous. It doesn't say that Tassadar still has a fleet after having been freed either yet we are free to assume that he has one in that same battle. We know that Raynor does have a fleet because in The Hammer Falls the adjutant remarks that Raynor's fleet is prepped and ready to go. We're not sure if he's lost it since then (or gained more even) but he does have one. Because there's nothing that explicitly says he lost it, it is more than conceivable that he must still have one (or more). But no, he apparently does not because he is supposed to be weak?

Anyway, I don't know that Raynor has been getting weaker.

Raynor has always been relatively weak but the implication of getting weaker is there due to his continual defeats coupled with the fact that he's on the outer fringe of Terran society/not having ready access to resources or treating them as expendable. The preamble to WoL also implies that he been getting weaker in his fight with Mengsk.

Now you're asking a hypothetical derived from a hypothetical in answer to a vague question, which is largely why I avoided answering it the first time. You're the one who asked me how I would react if Raynor had been portrayed as much stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was by the end of Brood War, remember?

The questions I asked have a rhetorical element to them.

Well, sure (assuming I'm understanding 'idealised' correctly). But it's not like he was a complex character in Brood War either, so that's not inconsistent (which is the point I'm arguing )

It's not a matter of it being inconsistent but it being jarring. You're right that Mengsk is nothing special in BW or WoL which makes one question how he was able to get into the position that WoL starts him at. It seems like his incompetency, which was harming him throughout BW was then suddenly rewarded with incredible and prolonged luck afterward and behind the scenes.

I'm pretty sure I'm not, but the Heart of the Swarm script hasn't been copied to this site, and I'm far too lazy to seek out another way to read it, so I'll forget it .

I think I've got you here. Kerrigan is investigating Kaldir because Nafash had disappeared - killed by the supposedly "weak" Protoss outpost stationed there.

Imagine, for the sake of analogy, that the entire Roman Empire was completely wiped out. There's nobody alive with the blood of Rome, nobody speaks or even remembers Latin, not a stone of roman construction remains standing. Then, thirty seconds later, the Roman Empire stands again with half of the territory it held at the peak of its power completely intact. I would say that's an unbelievable recovery, even if only half the Roman Empire has been recovered, and it hasn't fully recovered. That's what I'm saying with Mengsk. Going from nothing to an endgame fleet in a week is incredible, even if it isn't the full power of the Dominion as it once was.

That analogy is over-exaggerated. Mengsk is part of that "Empire" such that if it's destruction was as complete as you say, Mengsk would also be dead for real. If the Empire were to comeback "as it was" under such conditions, then that would be unbelievable. But Mengsk survived such that the possibility of the Dominion could rise again. The next assumption you make is that although Mengsk is synonymous with the Dominion, he is not the Dominion in it's entirety. If the Emperor can die without his Empire going with him, than an Empire can die without it's Emperor necessarily going with it as well. It's just that in the latter, the "Emperor" can no longer be named as such since the Empire as fallen/dissolved. If that man who was once called Emperor was then able to raise an army some time later, that does not mean the Empire is back again. It just means we have a guy a with an army (of which there'd be a few with Raynor numbering as one of them), no more or less.

Who said Mengsk wasn't weak? What does that mean? Weakness is a relative term, and I've been careful to specify: Mengsk is weaker in Omega than he was before, say Emperor's Fall, probably also True Colors. He is stronger than he was after True Colors, hence why it's a recovery. And there's no indication that he's weaker than any of the other Koprulu Terran groups in the game. So you'll need to be more specific, when you say Mengsk can't be weak.

You've basically implied all this time that Mengsk is not really weak due to being capable of an absurd recovery.

Kerrigan taking over the Zerg isn't really the problem, not by itself at least. The problem is that her Brood War, her struggle to take over the Swarm, mostly comes in the form of conflict with the Terran United Earth Directorate, which commands the greater whole of the Zerg. If it had been a struggle with Daggoth, as it reasonably should have been, then you'd have actual Zerg conflict going on. You'd still have the problem that all the characters in the Zerg campaign are Infested Terrans, non-infested Terrans and Protoss though.

Yeah, the "Zerg" campaign in BW is more about Kerrigan than Zerg (which HotS then has to go and repeat but with a different Kerrigan). Given the lack of any real Zerg interaction/conflict/evolution, Zerg lovers can take solace that they still ended up on top despite all that crap anyway. It's better than the general Protoss lover, who can't get any satisfaction whatsoever what with their victory turned into nothing in Sc1 and then being humiliated further in BW. I'll take what I can get!

[Gradius]

Why? What you want is evidence that:

That's what you're pretending differentiates the Omega fleet from any other Dominion fleet. And I've already pointed out that the Dominion is supplied by for-profit corporations. Obviously, to make a profit those corporations need to be paid either through the Dominion's available funds (positive balance) or unavailable funds (driving himself into the red). The evidence is pretty clear.

Right, and after getting sacked on Korhal, the evidence is pretty clear that he's further driving himself into the red. If he had money he'd use that. But he doesn't, so he has to cash in on immaterial wealth like owed favors and future concessions. BW is pretty consistent about this. You're the only one claiming there's some sort of miracle recovery, so the onus is on you to prove it instead of repeatedly asking us for evidence and then denying it.

Two words in and you've already failed. If you're going to claim that I'm wrong, those words need to be "you must". The words must by definition or implication require the incurring of debt. You can trade many things for future benefits. If you want to say that "making concessions" means indebtedness, you need to provide a source for that, because I've already cited a dictionary to you and you just don't seem to care what the word actually means.

Sigh.

We weren't talking about the incurring of debt, I was addressing your claim that the definition of concessions is "not promising to give something that you do not have."

As I've demonstrated, that's patently false. Concessions themselves have nothing to do with debt. That's a separate topic depending on context (namely the fact that cashing in on favors and making concessions is not the default payment method to military industrialists). But nice try at strawmanning your way out of the topic at hand.

Can you demonstrate that Mengsk has never had to make concessions before? You're the one claiming that this situation is exceptional, you must demonstrate it.

1) I don't have to demonstrate jack. Omega IS the only point in the game where he's making concessions to order around his own fleet. Stop denying evidence.
2) Basic logic dictates that a dictator does not have to suck up to people to order around his own fleet. Why is this even a real debate topic?
3) His homeworld just got wrecked multiple times. It should be self-evident that he's broke and doesn't have money to pay military industrialists.

Then there's no need to leave so many Leviathans.

The Leviathans are to protect Korhal from the Dominion fleets that are coming back. Not to sit there uselessly and house the swarm.

At some point in this seventeen page thread, I'm sure I did, likely when I was telling Turalyon about all the shit the Zerg had to go through so the authours could even justify the Dominion surviving three missions, but I assuredly did not in the obvious points I gave you, because there is no way to tell how bad the losses were compared to those sustained before the invasion in Brood War. I only brought up objective facts. Read for yourself:

Please highlight in red the part where I mention the Broods she lost during her deinfestation

Ok. I guess I think it's pointless to compare the two invasions without considering every factor. Especially since you're not even comparing the Dominion to the Dominion in BW, but the UED, who are by definition stronger than the Dominion.

Let's go over the "objective facts" again:

In Brood War, Kerrigan used the entirety of the Zerg at her command, plus the Terran Dominion and Protoss Templar as allies, to invade Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan leaves most of her Leviathans behind and only gets the help of the Hyperion in the final moments of the conflict. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

In HoTS Kerrigan has the help of the primals and the Raiders, putting her on par with BW. In Heart of the Swarm the Leviathans are stationed around Korhal to prevent Dominion fleets from interfering. They are still technically being used to invade Korhal, and you can't prove that nothing similar was done in BW.

Also, she may have had allies, but the UED had slave broods in BW. The Dominion did not. So, this "objective fact" is utterly bunk. Moving on.

In Brood War, Mengsk has pulled back all his available assets to help in the defence of Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm the UED's main force is stationed on Char meaning that not only is Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

I already provided you with a quote that proved that Korhal was the UED's main hub. So this "objective fact" is just straight up wrong.

In Brood War, The UED pulled out some Zerg to help in the defence of Korhal, but not many because they had trouble controlling the Overmind. In Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk pulls out a weapon that completely annihilates all Zerg that come within its city-protecting range. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

Kerrigan has a weapon specifically designed to counter it. She is not impressed, and the only thing this proves is that the Dominion got a bunch of money out of nowhere.

In Brood War, Kerrigan was infesting Terrans to use as suicide bombers against the UED. In Heart of the Swarm, Kerrigan is handicapping herself to prevent unnecessary Terran casualties. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

Technically true, yet Kerrigan handicapping herself has absolutely nothing to do with the Dominion's recovery. Yet another strawman. And again, she still infests dominion military in hots. This point is invalid.

Providing the definition of 'staging area' is "inventing your own evidence"?

Yep. You've ignored the quote alltogether and decided that the UED's main hub is actually on Char instead of Korhal like the game tells you. Why? I have absolutely no idea. You seem to have cherrypicked this "objective fact" out of thin air.

The "primary staging point" is still the point in the sector that would have the largest concentration of UED troops guarding it. Stop denying evidence.

You were wrong.

As usual, your argument did not address my own. Try again.

So when you said:

You weren't talking about the actual invasion of Korhal since you claim bringing up the UED is a non-sequitur, and you weren't talking about True Colors, since you admit that stabbing a surprised ally in the back while they're resting is not "far worse" than invading the most powerful stronghold in Terran space that has bent all its resources toward stopping you, so please, tell me about this invasion of Korhal against the Dominion in Brood War where Kerrigan had it "far worse".

All of the above is actually proof that the Dominion made a ridiculous recovery in SC2, when it was harder (or as hard) to invade them than it was the UED back in BW. I'm just trying to be intellectually honest and concede the fact that the two invasions are not the same, unlike you with your "objective facts". -_-

But honestly, True Colors was pretty close to the amount of effort it would have taken to the lay the Dominion to waste in BW, because yes, even though they're betraying a sleeping ally, they also had the protoss helping them.

Relatively speaking, we're already even since we're comparing 1/10th of a campaign to 2/20ths of a campaign,

No, just no. The BW zerg campaign had a lot more going on in it than just sacking Korhal. The defeat of the Dominion was a mere side note.

but that's not counting the magical plot device Mengsk pulled out of his arse and required an entire mission to deal with, so Kerrigan had it far worse in Heart of the Swarm

Sorry but this is evidence for MY position. The fact that he built a new zerg-destroying weapon, on a needlessly expensive floating platform above the city of all places, is a testament to how ridiculous his recovery is.

yet still overran Korhal in a similar length of time, so clearly the invasion was harder in Brood War than it was in Heart of the Swarm.

FanaticTemplar disagrees with you:

Reality is quite clear about the invasion in Heart of the Swarm being harder than the one in Brood War

I don't even know what your position is anymore.

But wait, let's count all the tangentially related missions too!

From Brood War we have Reign of Fire, The Kel-Morian Combine, The Liberation of Korhal and True Colors, that's 4/10ths of a campaign. In Heart of the Swarm, we have the Char missions and the Korhal missions, that's 6/20ths, or actually less than in Brood War? Umoja was about setting up the narrative of the campaign (with defeating Mengsk becoming Kerrigan's objective at the end of the arc), Kaldir was about the Protoss, Zerus was about the Zerg, Skygeirr was about the Hybrids and Space was about Raynor. You may want to exclude Reign of Fire from Brood War's count, for whatever reason, but that would still leave them equal.

Are you serious?

Umoja was spent fighting Dominion for two missions (and highlights the fact that Mengsk can just randomly attack Umoja without fear of repercussions because of his ridiculous WoL recovery). Kaldir and Zerus are comparable to Reign of Fire, in that you're trying to bolster your forces. That's why when Kerrigan arrives at Kaldir and tells the swarm to move on Korhal, Izsha says "we can't". Skygeirr was about Mengsk's expensive secret hybrid weapons lab, which according to Stukov is the second most fortified place in Dominion space. In fact, there were so many Marines there that it actually paid off for Kerrigan to bring out infestors and "use their numbers against them". A testament to the Dominion's ridiculous recovery.

Of course it was. Everything is easy for the Zerg since the Brood War retcon of their strength.

In other words, since the facts disagree with your "objective" interpretation of the game, it must be a retcon. It's not a retcon. Prove that it's a retcon.

Things we're required to believe for your position to be consistent:
1) Zerg strength in BW got retconned.
2) Omega is a plothole since Mengsk got a new fleet.

Again, why do we need to believe your plothole-inducing version of events?

I'm just wondering if you really want to keep arguing about how Kerrigan didn't just get to stab Mengsk in the back while he was sleeping in Heart of the Swarm and that means the Terrans are somehow overpowered ?!?

Since you have no problem comparing the Dominion invasion in HoTS to the UED invasion in BW, I would be well justified to do so.

I don't need to limit myself to the Kerrigan quotes you provide. This is what she says about the Psi Destroyer: "Let's see what your Psi Destroyer can do, Mengsk. The Swarm is going to be torn apart. We need to shut down this field."

So you apparently believe that the Psi Destroyer will tear apart the Swarm, and this is laughable as a defence?

I'm still laughing about it.

Going. To. Be. Torn. Apart.

That's what she said after sending a couple mutalisks into the field as a test, and watching them die. All she had to do was move the swarm out of range. That was hard.

Do you even realize that I should be agreeing with you here since the idea that the Dominion was easier to destroy in BW is what my position is all about? You seem to be getting seriously turned around. More to the point, your attempts at spinning the "difficulty" of the invasion as meaningful is just an attempt at misdirection. It's the fact that Mengsk was able to afford all this crap that says anything about his recovery.

...

Are you really asking me to provide evidence that Kerrigan is not trustworthy?

Oh wow, this is going to be tough. She's such a bastion of honesty and accuracy! I mean, who wouldn't believe everything she says in... either game, you said, right?

Oh wait, by some amazing miracle, I've managed to find a quote!

"I lied."

Well, I'm sure I just got lucky.

Your ability to pull completely irrelevant quotes out of context is amazing. Great job. :P

When she said that Augustgrad is one of the most heavily defended planets in the sector, not a single person disagreed with her, even after she "lied".

The Kel-Morian Combine. Are you asserting that those Command Centers were Dominion military (or UED military, given the circumstances)?

They were military command centers.

So you provided me with an inaccurate quote?

Well, unfortunately I don't have every quote memorized from my 3 playthroughs. The basic point is the same. It just so happens that your attempt to weasel out of the obvious ramifications of the quote failed once we started nitpicking it (which I didn't think we would have to).

If we're using your newly updated quote, obviously that doesn't apply. Now that we've cleared up this little detail, care to return to the main point about how Kerrigan was saddled with a tonne of handicaps during Heart of the Swarm, still completely rolled over the Dominion, and you still want to pretend that this is somehow unfair because I should believe Kerrigan and Mengsk?

You can believe Kerrigan and Izsha. Mengsk's opinion doesn't mean much to me. I only brought up his military orders because the rest of the Dominion seemed to find them reasonable and believed they could fight the swarm.

Let's be real. The only real handicap Kerrigan had was having the swarm broken post-artifact and saving civilians. The former existed in SCBW too, and the latter is kind of irrelevant because she's still fighting Dominion. The only advantage she gave up there was being able to land right on top of them. The other stuff (psi destroyer, hybrid lab) only serves to highlight how ridiculous Mengsk's recovery is.

Yeah, the volume of text in StarCraft II is not even comparable to that of Brood War, they didn't have time for these cozy conversations. Again, I provide facts, you provide opinions.

You provide "facts" that "they didn't have time" to include in the game, so you just invent them yourself. Cool.

I notice that you equate Mengsk saying something with Mengsk believing something, and then that with it being evidence of its accuracy. I'm going to give you the chance to backpedal sooner rather than later.

What? YOU brought it up and, YOU tried to twist it as evidence for your position. If I'm wrong, please clarify what you meant.

[FanaticTemplar]

What? That Brood War characters did not mention a perillous landing is a fact. That there were more dialogs in SC2 is also a fact. The idea that the first fact comes from the second is an opinion, certainly not a fact.

Yes, it is a fact. Not being mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist, however, that is an opinion. By pointing out that Brood War didn't have time to waste on such minutia, I'm bringing attention to how little reason there is to make that assumption at all.

I could quote the BW briefing to show that the characters were somewhat confident about their odds, but I'm not sure it would do any good.

I suspect I could provide an equivalent counter-quote from Heart of the Swarm.

Let's be honest: if you were given evidence, would you concede the point? I'm thinking no.

Why wouldn't I? What possible reason would I have to be personally invested in this, of all things? I've stated many times that I don't especially care whether these recoveries be considered ridiculous or not, they are completely irrelevant to the actual narrative of these stories. Don't try to paint your inability to defend this position as a character flaw on my part.

Gradius' point is that 1) the Brood War invasion of Korhal was against a force that was stronger than the Dominion,

No it's not. Because that was also what I assumed, and when I counter-argued on the assumption that he was talking about the invasion of Korhal against the UED, this is what he replied:

The UED was in control of Korhal, and they're a much tougher opponent than the Dominion. [...] So...your argument does not remotely address my own.

And you keep bringing up the UED when this debate is about the Dominion. I don't care about the UED.

This debate is still not about the UED. x)

The fact that you bring up the UED (a force so powerful that it enslaved the entire sector) as proof that the Dominion was more powerful during BW is.. a nonsequitur.

And again, you're talking about the UED, not the Dominion, and accuse me of misdirection. -_-

If there's one thing Gradius has made abundantly clear, it's that he wasn't talking about the UED. He doesn't even want the UED brought up. He was strictly speaking of that time in Brood War where Kerrigan invaded Korhal against the Dominion and had it "far worse". And I want to know when that happened, 'cause I certainly don't remember it.

but 2) HotS Kerrigan claims the HotS invasion of Korhal will be harder (note she calls Korhal "the most difficult battle of her life" before she agrees to spare civilians).

I am quite aware of that. You just quoted me acknowledging that he provides opinions. Those opinions are proven incorrect by the facts of the invasion.

As far as I can see, your reply is arguing that the HotS Dominion on Korhal was weak and that the UED on Korhal was weak too. An odd angle, in my opinion. Although the number of ifs and hypotheticals make this discussion very difficult to follow, it almost feels you are simultaneously arguing that the Zerg were strong and that they were weak: strong, because it means the battle was easier for them, and weak, because it means their enemies were weaker.

Come to think of it, I can't tell what you are trying to prove anymore. Aside from refuting whatever argument you're given, what exactly is your overarching point? That Starcraft 2 isn't any worse than Brood War?

Depends what you're reading specifically. With Turalyon I believe I'm mostly discussing how Wings of Liberty largely remains consistent with where Brood War left off. With Gradius, he is defending himself against the point I made that because of the Zerg's ridiculous power levels after the Brood War retcon, the writers have to provide a ridiculous amount of deus ex machinas to explain why anybody is allowed to survive even three missions against them, and even then fans will complain about how "overpowered" they were for not instantly dying! Presumably also about how this is incredibly detrimental to the narrative value of the Zerg, which is why I originally brought it up when talking to Turalyon but I don't think we'll get there.

That's where the previous history and context can guide us. Mengsk is unlikely to be strongest given that when he truly was at his most powerful he was rendered powerless by the UED. Given the general nature of Terran weakness and that Mengsk is only one man, how much more force can he bear to bring than the UED who defeated him before or the Protoss, despite having been crippled, are unified in their showing?

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? We don't know how far any of them have fallen. We don't know how powerful they are compared to each other. I'd assumed they were of near equivalent strength due to the setup, but if they aren't we have no idea who is mightiest. I'd suspect the UED are the weakest, actually. Mengsk still has many worlds to call on, but the UED have no reinforcements.

Don't be ridiculous. It doesn't say that Tassadar still has a fleet after having been freed either yet we are free to assume that he has one in that same battle. We know that Raynor does have a fleet because in The Hammer Falls the adjutant remarks that Raynor's fleet is prepped and ready to go.

Oh, you're right. I'd forgotten that. Maybe he did still have a fleet in Eye of the Storm (unless he lost in on Char), in which case he is indeed certainly less powerful now than he was back then. I'd assume he lost it between StarCraft and Brood War though, Aldaris mentions that they have lost the protection of their fleets, and I can't really imagine Raynor's fleet still being up there alone.

It's not a matter of it being inconsistent but it being jarring. You're right that Mengsk is nothing special in BW or WoL which makes one question how he was able to get into the position that WoL starts him at. It seems like his incompetency, which was harming him throughout BW was then suddenly rewarded with incredible and prolonged luck afterward and behind the scenes.

I don't think Mengsk's incompetence hampered him in Brood War because I don't think he was supposed to be incompetent. I think the writers just used that same lazy escape of having their new villains defeat their established villains to gain credibility. Mengsk suffers because he gets a double dose - he looks incompetent for getting crushed by the UED, then falls to the common plague of acting like an idiot to make Kerrigan look smart by comparison.

I think I've got you here. Kerrigan is investigating Kaldir because Nafash had disappeared - killed by the supposedly "weak" Protoss outpost stationed there.

Yeah, but weren't her structures frozen over? I get the impression that she was unable to adapt to the environment fast enough. As for the Protoss, I mostly remember their ship being full of plants and animals, gave me the impression that they were more focused on relatively peaceful matters. But again, I haven't verified any of this.

I was going to say that I'd expect Templar to have better contact with the military structure, but then I remembered that when we went to Char in Brood War, we apparently had no contact with Raszagal and Aldaris and what was happening there, then again in the original Aldaris could communicate with us freely... I don't know. Protoss communication doesn't seem to have been consistently established.

That analogy is over-exaggerated.

Well obviously. The point of the analogy was to clarify through extremes what I had apparently not been able to convey by discussing the subject at hand.

You've basically implied all this time that Mengsk is not really weak due to being capable of an absurd recovery.

I don't understand. How can you recover if you do not lose something first? He has to be weakened to be able to recover.

Yeah, the "Zerg" campaign in BW is more about Kerrigan than Zerg (which HotS then has to go and repeat but with a different Kerrigan). Given the lack of any real Zerg interaction/conflict/evolution, Zerg lovers can take solace that they still ended up on top despite all that crap anyway. It's better than the general Protoss lover, who can't get any satisfaction whatsoever what with their victory turned into nothing in Sc1 and then being humiliated further in BW. I'll take what I can get!

Thanks for reminding me . At least you didn't bring up the Prophecy Arc .

Right, and after getting sacked on Korhal, the evidence is pretty clear that he's further driving himself into the red. If he had money he'd use that.

Why? Governments make concessions all the time without being bankrupt. You have yet to demonstrate any exchange in which currency is not used proves the absence of existing currency.

Sigh.

We weren't talking about the incurring of debt, I was addressing your claim that the definition of concessions is "[COLOR=#EEEEEE][I]not promising to give something that you do not have."

That's either a reading comprehension failure on your part, or a deliberate attempt at misdirection. I did not give a negative definition, I gave a positive definition (concessions are things that are granted, especially in response to demands) and then pointed out that your definition was incorrect. To use an example, you state that "it is red, therefore it is a car." I then reply that "red is a colour. It is not a car." You then post a picture of a red car and claim that you have disproved my claim that "red cannot be a car". You're not arguing that concessions can be made for things in the future, you're arguing that concessions must be made for things in the future because you're arguing that Mengsk making concessions is somehow evidence of indebtedness.

1) I don't have to demonstrate jack. Omega IS the only point in the game where he's making concessions to order around his own fleet. Stop denying evidence.

That certainly fits your established strategy. Make an assertion, refuse to provide evidence, accuse others of denying the evidence you have refused to provide.

2) Basic logic dictates that a dictator does not have to suck up to people to order around his own fleet. Why is this even a real debate topic?

Because you are apparently incapable of understanding the concept of 'purchasing', which I have explained numerous times. And you accuse me of strawmanning? What a joke.

3) His homeworld just got wrecked multiple times. It should be self-evident that he's broke and doesn't have money to pay military industrialists.

Multiple worlds. Destroying a capital does not nullify all a nation's resources.

The Leviathans are to protect Korhal from the Dominion fleets that are coming back. Not to sit there uselessly and house the swarm.

That was just Kylissa's Leviathans.

In HoTS Kerrigan has the help of the primals and the Raiders, putting her on par with BW.

Ah yes, the Terran Dominion and Raynor's Raiders are equivalent forces. Oh wait, Raynor's Raiders were actually part of Kerrigan's allies in Brood War too. Even with your false equivalencies, you fail. And I guess that means the Primal Zerg are equivalent to Fenix's forces then? Sure, whatever.

In Heart of the Swarm the Leviathans are stationed around Korhal to prevent Dominion fleets from interfering. They are still technically being used to invade Korhal, and you can't prove that nothing similar was done in BW.

That was one Brood Mother's Leviathans.

I already provided you with a quote that proved that Korhal was the UED's main hub. So this "objective fact" is just straight up wrong.

You proved primary staging area, which confirms my point. I said it was not the location of their primary force, which is where troops and supply at a staging area would be heading off to. It's only wrong if you ignore what words mean.

Kerrigan has a weapon specifically designed to counter it. She is not impressed, and the only thing this proves is that the Dominion got a bunch of money out of nowhere.

Fact: Mengsk has a magic plot device that instantly destroys any Zerg within its city-covering zone of influence.
Fact: Dealing with this weapon occupies a third of the invasion.
Kerrigan's opinion: This weapon will tear the Swarm apart.
Gradius' opinion: This proves nothing.

Technically true, yet Kerrigan handicapping herself has absolutely nothing to do with the Dominion's recovery.

Do you not even know what you're arguing? Of course it has nothing to do with the Dominion's recovery! This is not about the Dominion's recovery! It's about how stupidly overpowered the Zerg are and people like you still complain about how it's unfair that even with a handful of plot devices, the Dominion can stand three missions against them!

Yep. You've ignored the quote alltogether and decided that the UED's main hub is actually on Char instead of Korhal like the game tells you.

I didn't ignore your quote, I pointed out how it has nothing to do with what I said. I said that their main force is stationed over Char, and you reply that Korhal is their primary staging area. Who cares?

The "primary staging point" is still the point in the sector that would have the largest concentration of UED troops guarding it. Stop denying evidence.

I've provided you with the definition of staging area. Stop denying the English language.

As usual, your argument did not address my own. Try again.

You said the UED alone dominated the Sector. I demonstrated what the UED alone actually managed to accomplish. Do you not even know what you're saying?

All of the above is actually proof that the Dominion made a ridiculous recovery in SC2, when it was harder (or as hard) to invade them than it was the UED back in BW. I'm just trying to be intellectually honest and concede the fact that the two invasions are not the same, unlike you with your "objective facts". -_-

I love that you pretend at intellectual honesty while running away from the question. This entire discussion is about this alleged steamrolling of Korhal where Kerrigan 'had it worse' and in which you can't bring up the UED. When did this occur?

No, just no. The BW zerg campaign had a lot more going on in it than just sacking Korhal. The defeat of the Dominion was a mere side note.

I've provided the mission counts. But you just keep denying the evidence.

FanaticTemplar disagrees with you:


I don't even know what your position is anymore.

One is a reference to the power of the obstacles placed in Kerrigan's path, the other is about your asinine assertion that number of missions spent on something conveys its difficulty can be easily turned on its head. It is also sarcastic.

Umoja was spent fighting Dominion for two missions (and highlights the fact that Mengsk can just randomly attack Umoja without fear of repercussions because of his ridiculous WoL recovery).

So? Running away from the Dominion says nothing about Korhal's defences, and does nothing to facilitate the invasion.

Kaldir and Zerus are comparable to Reign of Fire, in that you're trying to bolster your forces.

No, that would be equivalent to Vile Disruption, which I didn't bring up. Reign of Fire is about destroying the UED's magic superweapon.

That's why when Kerrigan arrives at Kaldir and tells the swarm to move on Korhal, Izsha says "we can't". Skygeirr was about Mengsk's expensive secret hybrid weapons lab, which according to Stukov is the second most fortified place in Dominion space. In fact, there were so many Marines there that it actually paid off for Kerrigan to bring out infestors and "use their numbers against them". A testament to the Dominion's ridiculous recovery.

Yes, so? That's not what those arcs were about, they're just the excuse for introducing them.

1) Zerg strength in BW got retconned.

I could demonstrate that, but you're having enough difficulty with the topics we already have. Let's not branch out.

2) Omega is a plothole since Mengsk got a new fleet.

Again, why do we need to believe your plothole-inducing version of events?

I've said repeatedly that I'm fine with accepting a version of events that does not induce plot holes. You're the one who keeps insisting that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is a plot hole. Honestly, given that you backpedal every time you bring it up, I have no idea why you keep doing so.

Since you have no problem comparing the Dominion invasion in HoTS to the UED invasion in BW, I would be well justified to do so.

Yes, yes, I'm sorry I assumed that you were the one who brought it up. However, you still haven't told me which steamrolling of Korhal not involving the UED and not involving True Colors Kerrigan 'had it worse' in.

I'm still laughing about it.

Going. To. Be. Torn. Apart.

That's what she said after sending a couple mutalisks into the field as a test, and watching them die. All she had to do was move the swarm out of range. That was hard.

See how easy it is to make you admit that Kerrigan cannot be relied upon?

Your ability to pull completely irrelevant quotes out of context is amazing. Great job. :P

Yes, I can't see how Kerrigan admitting that she lied could ever impugn her reliability. I still don't know if you're trolling me.

They were military command centers.

Not UED Command Centers though. They were people completely unrelated to her conflict with the UED.

Let's be real.

Why would you only start this now?

The only real handicap Kerrigan had was having the swarm broken post-artifact and saving civilians. The former existed in SCBW too, and the latter is kind of irrelevant because she's still fighting Dominion. The only advantage she gave up there was being able to land right on top of them. The other stuff (psi destroyer, hybrid lab) only serves to highlight how ridiculous Mengsk's recovery is.

Ah, you're not starting this now.

You provide "facts" that "they didn't have time" to include in the game, so you just invent them yourself. Cool.

What are you even talking about?

What? YOU brought it up and, YOU tried to twist it as evidence for your position. If I'm wrong, please clarify what you meant.

and Mengsk frequently implied that the Dominion could win just because of their military (i.e. men, wipe out the swarm, wipe out the queen of blades). All this points to the fact that the Dominion could actually fight the swarm toe to toe.

[Telenil]

Why wouldn't I? What possible reason would I have to be personally invested in this, of all things? I've stated many times that I don't especially care whether these recoveries be considered ridiculous or not, they are completely irrelevant to the actual narrative of these stories. Don't try to paint your inability to defend this position as a character flaw on my part.

You shouldn't be personnally invested in this, but there are a number of signs that you are. For example, you keep trying to make point-by-point rebuttals; or you refuse to acknowledge any evidence was given to you because "you provided counter-evidence", as if any two arguments canceled each other. You use very definitive phrasings implying your view is obviously correct: you may be correct, but if three different people disagree, then it is not as obvious as that. Even the last sentence of that quote is not something you would write if you weren't emotionnally involved.

Note that some of this applies to other people, including myself. I'm pointing these things out because when they happen at page 18, it would be beneficial to take a step back and think this through.

You proved primary staging area, which confirms my point. I said it was not the location of their primary force, which is where troops and supply at a staging area would be heading off to. It's only wrong if you ignore what words mean.

See, that's the sort of problematic arguments you often make. There is no in-game indication that the UED is stronger on Char than on Korhal (you gave none, in any case). On the other hand, there is an indication that the UED had some sort of stronger presence on Korhal than anywhere else. You argue that Kerrigan's exact words were "staging point" (with you so far), and then, you claim this nullifies the entire quote. Why? It may not be proof, assuming it is possible to "prove" something in that sense, but it is still evidence.

When I suggested the "bulk of the broods" on Char were involved in the battle of Omega, the real argument was not that a loophole exists, it was that the broods were "on the surface of Char", and that the battles takes place in its orbit - almost as close as it can be. That the briefing doesn't technically rule it out is merely a reality check.

If you had a quote or some other strong evidence implying that the UED was stronger on Char, the exact phrasing might have solved a contradiction. As it is, we have an in-game dialog saying the UED is strongest in some sense on Korhal, and that Korhal is its capital world, while I have yet to see a quote clearly pointing in the other direction. Which is why I'm going with the idea that Korhal was the strongest UED world in a general sense.

So when you argue the UED definitely had a stronger army on Char, that comes out as denying evidence - all the more when your posts include a rather presomptuous "what I say is objective fact".

[Turalyon]

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? We don't know how far any of them have fallen. We don't know how powerful they are compared to each other. I'd assumed they were of near equivalent strength due to the setup, but if they aren't we have no idea who is mightiest. I'd suspect the UED are the weakest, actually. Mengsk still has many worlds to call on, but the UED have no reinforcements.

Yeah, the situation's kind of odd. One would think that the UED should ostensibly be the most powerful given that they are the primary antagonist but that is not the only thing. We also have to consider what the UED gain by taking down Mengsk. I know it seems silly for the majority of UED campaign being taken up by fighting Mengsk when it was their real goal to crush the aliens but if we are to consider that the UED are a limited force, it makes sense that they usurp Mengsk so that they can establish themselves and take advantage of the K sector Terrans resources to bolster themselves. Given that Mengsk/Dominion is utterly defeated by the UED, it is reasonable to expect that the UED would've taken over as the major ruling force over all K sector Terrans at the time because that's what Mengsk did to the Confederates. In that sense, the UED could be more reasonably powerful in Omega despite their loss of the neo-Overmind/Zerg on Char.

Mengsk is a lot more sketchier. We have to consider that his Dominion is a fledgling government at the time BW starts and when the UED usurp him. His inauguration speech hints at the possibility of the Terrans as a unified force, but the reality of that speech is that it's propaganda, so we don't really know what he says has any truth or foresight to it. We never see Mengsk in Sc1 or BW calling on his many worlds to help him - we only see Duke as the Dominion's representative and they are just as ineffective against the aliens as the Confederates were earlier. In BW, he gets defeated by the UED after a protracted fight. If Mengsk really had the potential to call on other worlds at the time, which would actually imply that Mengsk was stronger than the UED from the get-go given the abundance of resources at his disposal, Mengsk never would have been defeated and had his Dominion dismantled in the first place! Because Mengsk actually gets defeated and his government removed, how do we know that Mengsk can even still call on these other worlds and recognise him as being important (let alone Emperor of a Dominion that actually no longer exists), especially with the UED still on his back and capitalising on what was his resources? How do the forces of these other worlds be considered stronger than the UED when they could still potentially muster Terran support having taken over Mengsk earlier and especially when Mengsk, at his strongest (he had the Dominion and the multiple worlds to call on) wasn't enough to stop the UED initially?

Oh, you're right. I'd forgotten that. Maybe he did still have a fleet in Eye of the Storm (unless he lost in on Char), in which case he is indeed certainly less powerful now than he was back then. I'd assume he lost it between StarCraft and Brood War though, Aldaris mentions that they have lost the protection of their fleets, and I can't really imagine Raynor's fleet still being up there alone.

Ok, now that we've established that Raynor is getting weaker from his blows but still manages to make a showing without it being regarded as an absurd recovery, why can't Mengsk?

I don't think Mengsk's incompetence hampered him in Brood War because I don't think he was supposed to be incompetent. I think the writers just used that same lazy escape of having their new villains defeat their established villains to gain credibility. Mengsk suffers because he gets a double dose - he looks incompetent for getting crushed by the UED, then falls to the common plague of acting like an idiot to make Kerrigan look smart by comparison.

That's all well and good for you to say, but the reality of the thing is that Mengsk is incompetent as evidenced by his display in BW. This makes it difficult (not impossible) to rationally see the Dominion coming back again, let alone him being the Emperor of this Dominion 2.0.

Yeah, but weren't her structures frozen over? I get the impression that she was unable to adapt to the environment fast enough. As for the Protoss, I mostly remember their ship being full of plants and animals, gave me the impression that they were more focused on relatively peaceful matters. But again, I haven't verified any of this.

It is quite clear that Nafash was sent to kill the Protoss as Izsha points out just before Harvest of Screams: "Nafash moved her brood into these ice valleys to fight the protoss". When we arrive on Kaldir, Izsha also comments on Nafash having "many highly evolved creatures". They even found Nafash's corpse and labelled the Protoss as being responsible for her death! Besides, the Protoss are equally affected by the snowstorms, too, remember? If the most adaptive species cannot survive on the planet and yet the Protoss can still reside there, what does that tell you about how powerful the Protoss are on this planet? Kerrigan is definitely the weaker than the Protoss here.

The point of the analogy was to clarify through extremes what I had apparently not been able to convey by discussing the subject at hand.

But I've attempted to explain how that analogy when applied to Mengsk is somewhat fallacious.

I don't understand. How can you recover if you do not lose something first? He has to be weakened to be able to recover.

It's because there's the illusion of having lost something that was thought to be deemed significant at first and later turns out that thing wasn't significant in the first place. If Mengsk always had the ability to call on other worlds as a means to maintain or to get his power back, than the loss of the Dominion/his defeat at the hands of the UED was not actually a significant thing to worry about in the first place.

[Gradius]

For the record, also enjoying this debate, even though it's getting intense.

If there's one thing Gradius has made abundantly clear, it's that he wasn't talking about the UED. He doesn't even want the UED brought up. He was strictly speaking of that time in Brood War where Kerrigan invaded Korhal against the Dominion and had it "far worse". And I want to know when that happened, 'cause I certainly don't remember it.

True Colors is the best BW analogue to the HoTS invasion of the Dominion. You say it doesn't count because it's a surprise attack, but that's easily nullified by the fact that Kerrigan is fighting 2 on 1. I was trying to steer discussion towards the Dominion sacking of Korhal because that's what I think we should be talking about, but it matters little to me because the invasion of Korhal against the UED was still easier than the HoTS invasion.

Why? Governments make concessions all the time without being bankrupt. You have yet to demonstrate any exchange in which currency is not used proves the absence of existing currency.

Argument from ignorance. Just because they can doesn't mean there's a shred of evidence that they did.

But let me get this straight, you actually think that Mengsk's default payment method to military industrialists is to cash in on favors and give concessions? You think that's how the normal order of business in his empire goes, him kissing up to arms suppliers? Yes or no?

In Mengsk's case, the special interest groups loaned him the fleet because they were the only ones left with money and they had an interest in killing Kerrigan. If it was him, he'd have payed for it like normal. At best, you can argue that Mengsk still has a good reputation because they chose him to lead the assault. But that excuse would be bunk for WoL after his Omega battle FAILS.

That's either a reading comprehension failure on your part, or a deliberate attempt at misdirection. I did not give a negative definition, I gave a positive definition (concessions are things that are granted, especially in response to demands)

Maybe that's what you meant, but it's not what you wrote:

"It is giving something, not promising to give something that you do not have."

Concessions can most certainly include the latter.

You're not arguing that concessions can be made for things in the future, you're arguing that concessions must be made for things in the future because you're arguing that Mengsk making concessions is somehow evidence of indebtedness.

No...pretty sure I never actually said that. I thought you had evidence that Mengsk purchased the fleet, not some argument from ignorance.

The burden of proof is on you. You don't get to cop-out with argument from ignorance. You're the one saying there's a plothole that he was able to purchase a fleet instead of accepting the perfectly consistent interpretation that he had to purchase the fleet on credit because of all the evidence given in this thread (the Omega quote, he just got wrecked multiple times, the UED control his colonies, he had to use concessions/favors instead of paying for it with currency as normal, etc).

I know I'm winning this debate because we've just reached the point where you're trying to absolve yourself of all responsibility of actually supporting your position with constant cop outs to argument from ignorance. Your entire stance has now boiled down to "Na na na, you can't prove anything!" while supplying no facts of your own, even though you're the one making the claim.

That certainly fits your established strategy. Make an assertion, refuse to provide evidence, accuse others of denying the evidence you have refused to provide.

It's...already in the game. The special interest groups are the ones that want Kerrigan dead and loaned Mengsk the fleet/funds. You think there was a point other than Omega where Mengsk didn't have to beg people or cater to special interest groups to order his own fleet around? Where the hell is it? -_-

Seriously, just provide some evidence, or stop talking about it. Period.

Because you are apparently incapable of understanding the concept of 'purchasing', which I have explained numerous times. And you accuse me of strawmanning? What a joke.

Ah yes, FanaticTemplar's definition of "purchasing": begging people into giving you something because you've run out of money. It is a joke.

Multiple worlds. Destroying a capital does not nullify all a nation's resources.

"Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"

He's broke. Your excuse may have been valid after the UED overthrew him, but not after Kerrigan destroys the last vestiges of what he has left on Korhal.

That was just Kylissa's Leviathans.

Great, then the rest must have been part of the invasion?

Ah yes, the Terran Dominion and Raynor's Raiders are equivalent forces. Oh wait, Raynor's Raiders were actually part of Kerrigan's allies in Brood War too. Even with your false equivalencies, you fail. And I guess that means the Primal Zerg are equivalent to Fenix's forces then? Sure, whatever.

Duh? Did it really need to be stated that they're not the exact same? If you don't want to compare the two at all, why bring it up?

And yes, the primal zerg are an entire planet of ancient zerg now loyal to Kerrigan. Possibly more powerful than Fenix's forces and the Dominion combined.

That was one Brood Mother's Leviathans.

And? You still can't prove that there's a difference between this and BW.

You proved primary staging area, which confirms my point. I said it was not the location of their primary force, which is where troops and supply at a staging area would be heading off to.

And you haven't provided any proof of where their primary force is. You just randomly decided it was Char. It could very well be Korhal. Not all troops in a staging area are going somewhere. It can be a checkpoint/hub. You're the one that's confused with dictionary definitions.

It's only wrong if you ignore what words mean.

Speak for yourself.

"a general locality used as a checkpoint or regrouping area for military formations in transit"

If the Axis powers took out the Allies' staging areas during the Normandy invasion, that would be virtually the same as defeating their forces alltogether.

Fact: Mengsk has a magic plot device that instantly destroys any Zerg within its city-covering zone of influence.
Fact: Dealing with this weapon occupies a third of the invasion.
Kerrigan's opinion: This weapon will tear the Swarm apart.
Gradius' opinion: This proves nothing.

Wow, reading comprehension problems abound. Yes, if Kerrigan walks straight into a nuclear bomb, it would also tear the swarm apart? But she didn't, because she's not an idiot. Why is this hard to grasp?

Kerrigan's opinion (as well as fact): "Was that your last card Mengsk? It wasn't good enough."

Stop denying evidence.

Do you not even know what you're arguing? Of course it has nothing to do with the Dominion's recovery! This is not about the Dominion's recovery! It's about how stupidly overpowered the Zerg are and people like you still complain about how it's unfair that even with a handful of plot devices, the Dominion can stand three missions against them!

Uh...no, I'm talking about the Dominion's recovery. I've already accounted for plot devices. The destroyer was nowhere near as damaging as the disruptor. Kerrigan barely lost any forces to it because she wasn't stupid enough to walk straight into its radius.

And yet Korhal in HoTS was still the "toughest fight of her life". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I didn't ignore your quote, I pointed out how it has nothing to do with what I said. I said that their main force is stationed over Char, and you reply that Korhal is their primary staging area. Who cares?

Logically, their main force (or a large part of it) would be guarding their staging areas (especially the primary one). You fabricated the idea that their main force is over Char. There's nothing in the game that directly states or implies that, and I find it surprisingly dishonest that you haven't owned up to this mistake by now.

You said the UED alone dominated the Sector. I demonstrated what the UED alone actually managed to accomplish. Do you not even know what you're saying?

Sorry for assuming your post was a valid rebuttal of mine. It's not. The UED did not "just" overthrow Mengsk, they captured all his colonies:

"It is strange that this Kel-Morian Combine continues to operate while the UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist."

But I suspect that you will deny this evidence as usual.

I love that you pretend at intellectual honesty while running away from the question. This entire discussion is about this alleged steamrolling of Korhal where Kerrigan 'had it worse' and in which you can't bring up the UED. When did this occur?

*facepalm

Let's see here, I try to make comparisons between true colors or the invasion of the UED. And your response is:

Oh wait, Raynor's Raiders were actually part of Kerrigan's allies in Brood War too. Even with your false equivalencies, you fail. And I guess that means the Primal Zerg are equivalent to Fenix's forces then? Sure, whatever.

Then, when I point out that any comparison will never be the same because it's not the same thing, you say I'm "running away from the question".

Cut that shit out. Do you want to compare the two (realizing that they're not the same thing), or not?

I've provided the mission counts. But you just keep denying the evidence.

Yeah and you're still plain wrong.

For example:

Reign of Fire, The Kel-Morian Combine, The Liberation of Korhal and True Colors, that's 4/10ths of a campaign

No, that would actually be 3 missions. True Colors was technically the second time Kerrigan sacked Korhal against a different opponent and would be a separate "invasion". You're inventing evidence where none exists again.

So that's 3/10. In HoTS it's Skygeirr, Char, Korhal, 3 a piece, which is 9/20 or 4.5/10. And that's me being generous and not counting Zerus/Kaldir which facilitate the invasion by bolstering your forces, making them analogous to the Kel-Morian Combine mission.

Yes, so? That's not what those arcs were about, they're just the excuse for introducing them.

"If Mengsk controls hybrids, the swarm invasion of Korhal will fail."

Stop denying evidence. Mengsk dumped vast amounts of money and resources into that lab to the point that it was the 2nd most heavily fortified position in Dominion Space.

I've said repeatedly that I'm fine with accepting a version of events that does not induce plot holes. You're the one who keeps insisting that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is a plot hole. Honestly, given that you backpedal every time you bring it up, I have no idea why you keep doing so.

We'll talk about Wings of Liberty once you figure out what happened in Brood War. You keep trying to pretend that there's a flaw in BW by ignoring evidence and the meaning of words, and using this to justify Mengsk's ridiculous recovery in SC2. No.

See how easy it is to make you admit that Kerrigan cannot be relied upon?

Not sure if joking or willfully dishonest.

Yes, I can't see how Kerrigan admitting that she lied could ever impugn her reliability. I still don't know if you're trolling me.

"When she said that Augustgrad is one of the most heavily defended planets in the sector, not a single person disagreed with her, even after she "lied"."

Say what you want about Kerrigan, nobody believes she was lying about Augustgrad, which is all that I give a crap about in this debate. She lied about her motivations in order to defeat her enemies. So what? She admitted it to everyone right afterwards. This is your excuse for ignoring evidence? -_-

Not remotely the same thing as Mengsk getting toppled, all his colonies captured, and him blustering "your victory here means little to me".

Not UED Command Centers though. They were people completely unrelated to her conflict with the UED.

So?

What are you even talking about?

Your penchant for fabricating evidence. I say:

Gee, having a hard time recalling the BW dialog where Raynor, Kerrigan and Fenix say "man, I hope we even make it to the surface". >_>

When you can't quantify the exact numbers of the swarm in BW vs HoTS, you have to fall back on in-universe perspectives. So again, why do you keep ignoring all the evidence that says you're wrong?

You respond with:

Yeah, the volume of text in StarCraft II is not even comparable to that of Brood War, they didn't have time for these cozy conversations. Again, I provide facts, you provide opinions.

Well, what the hell? You don't get to claim victory just because the previous game was too short to include the evidence that you wished was in there. That's not how debates work.

[FanaticTemplar]

You shouldn't be personnally invested in this, but there are a number of signs that you are. For example, you keep trying to make point-by-point rebuttals; or you refuse to acknowledge any evidence was given to you because "you provided counter-evidence", as if any two arguments canceled each other. You use very definitive phrasings implying your view is obviously correct: you may be correct, but if three different people disagree, then it is not as obvious as that. Even the last sentence of that quote is not something you would write if you weren't emotionnally involved.

I am personally affected by the accusation, yes. Because you made it personal. But the actual StarCraft lore? No, if you prove me wrong, then I'll just be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I'm wondering how much of this thread you've read if you think the disagreements of 'three different people' are equatable. Turalyon has proven me incorrect on several occasions, and I have freely admitted it. Our discussion has significantly progressed from the original topic. Gradius has not, because Gradius seems to be running around in circles. He still pretends not to understand positions I have explained numerous times. I'm not sure who the third is. You? I've barely argued with you at all, not since page 12 or something, anyway. Last post you said you didn't even know what my position was, so how could you disagree with it?

See, that's the sort of problematic arguments you often make. There is no in-game indication that the UED is stronger on Char than on Korhal (you gave none, in any case). On the other hand, there is an indication that the UED had some sort of stronger presence on Korhal than anywhere else. You argue that Kerrigan's exact words were "staging point" (with you so far), and then, you claim this nullifies the entire quote. Why? It may not be proof, assuming it is possible to "prove" something in that sense, but it is still evidence.

Yes and no. It's like saying that the UED's primary Power Generators were located on Braxis, and therefore that's evidence that that was where the bulk of the UED's forces were, it's actually a mostly unrelated topic. A staging area is an important logistics point, but it shouldn't where the bulk of the forces are, because the very purpose of a staging area is to be transitory, a place through which troops and materiel pass on their way elsewhere. What that quote is saying is that Korhal was the UED's primary logistics hub, not their strongest military presence. Narrative rules of escalation would suggest that Char, the last great UED force, would be their strongest, and since the very definition of a staging area means that those troops are on their way to actual military fronts that reinforces that deduction.

You are correct that I cannot prove this, however what you are forgetting is that this is not what I said was an objective fact. What I said was that in Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk had pulled back all his available assets to help in the defence of Korhal. In Brood War the UED's main force was stationed on Char meaning that not only was Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War. Even if you refuse to accept that the UED Fleet at Char was more important than the forces on Korhal, which is fair, you have to accept that there was a considerable force there that did not participate in Kerrigan's invasion of Korhal, and you have to accept that Mengsk pulled all his available assets to defend Korhal in Heart of the Swarm, because those are both things I can demonstrate, and that is all I need for my statement to be correct. Kerrigan did have it objectively better.

Yeah, the situation's kind of odd. One would think that the UED should ostensibly be the most powerful given that they are the primary antagonist but that is not the only thing. We also have to consider what the UED gain by taking down Mengsk. I know it seems silly for the majority of UED campaign being taken up by fighting Mengsk when it was their real goal to crush the aliens but if we are to consider that the UED are a limited force, it makes sense that they usurp Mengsk so that they can establish themselves and take advantage of the K sector Terrans resources to bolster themselves. Given that Mengsk/Dominion is utterly defeated by the UED, it is reasonable to expect that the UED would've taken over as the major ruling force over all K sector Terrans at the time because that's what Mengsk did to the Confederates. In that sense, the UED could be more reasonably powerful in Omega despite their loss of the neo-Overmind/Zerg on Char.

Agreed, both the appropriation of Battlecruisers at the Dylarian Shipyards and the reference to colonial conscripts to Duran suggest that the UED intended to use the Dominion to sustain their military force. That is likely why they considered Mengsk such a threat as to risk going against the Protoss ahead of schedule, and also why Kerrigan wanted to reinstate Mengsk on the throne of the UED: she expected Mengsk would require a lot of time and effort to become a threat again, whereas the UED could make use of those resources immediately. Evidently, she was surprised at just how quickly Mengsk returned though.

Mengsk is a lot more sketchier. We have to consider that his Dominion is a fledgling government at the time BW starts and when the UED usurp him. His inauguration speech hints at the possibility of the Terrans as a unified force, but the reality of that speech is that it's propaganda, so we don't really know what he says has any truth or foresight to it. We never see Mengsk in Sc1 or BW calling on his many worlds to help him - we only see Duke as the Dominion's representative and they are just as ineffective against the aliens as the Confederates were earlier. In BW, he gets defeated by the UED after a protracted fight. If Mengsk really had the potential to call on other worlds at the time, which would actually imply that Mengsk was stronger than the UED from the get-go given the abundance of resources at his disposal, Mengsk never would have been defeated and had his Dominion dismantled in the first place! Because Mengsk actually gets defeated and his government removed, how do we know that Mengsk can even still call on these other worlds and recognise him as being important (let alone Emperor of a Dominion that actually no longer exists), especially with the UED still on his back and capitalising on what was his resources? How do the forces of these other worlds be considered stronger than the UED when they could still potentially muster Terran support having taken over Mengsk earlier and especially when Mengsk, at his strongest (he had the Dominion and the multiple worlds to call on) wasn't enough to stop the UED initially?

See, that's an interesting question. Do we really have any idea how powerful the UED Fleet actually was when they showed up? They had to loot the Dominion's own shipyards for ships, their arrival caught everyone by surprise, and part of the briefing for Emperor's Fall notes that they have cut Mengsk off from reinforcements, and yet even so his standing forces were substantial. They were ineffective against the Protoss on Braxis, and DuGalle admits that they would never had the strength to land on Char if not for the Psi Disrupter they salvaged from the Confederacy (doesn't mean much of course, given that the Zerg are infinitely powerful). Later on, they are supplemented by slave Broods, but the sum total of the UED's solo achievements in the Koprulu Sector is usurping Mengsk at the head of the Dominion. Maybe they were weaker than the Dominion, considering how much they had to depend on local resources. Perhaps if they hadn't caught Mengsk by surprise, and he'd been able to form a defensive cocoon like he did in Heart of the Swarm, the UED would have faltered at the first hurdle. I don't know. This is pure speculation.

Ok, now that we've established that Raynor is getting weaker from his blows but still manages to make a showing without it being regarded as an absurd recovery, why can't Mengsk?

Wait, wait. Your new evidence completely changes how I'd assumed things were going, and I kinda need us to rebuild from the get-go here, sorry. When do you suggest that he has absurdly recovered? Are you suggesting that he lost his The Hammer Falls fleet on Char during Agent of the Swarm, and then rebuilt another for Eye of the Storm? 'Cause I would totally agree that it was absurd.

That's all well and good for you to say, but the reality of the thing is that Mengsk is incompetent as evidenced by his display in BW. This makes it difficult (not impossible) to rationally see the Dominion coming back again, let alone him being the Emperor of this Dominion 2.0.

Well yeah, but Kerrigan is also incompetent as evidenced by her displays in Brood War yet she still ends up on top, so there's precedent .

It is quite clear that Nafash was sent to kill the Protoss as Izsha points out just before Harvest of Screams: "Nafash moved her brood into these ice valleys to fight the protoss". When we arrive on Kaldir, Izsha also comments on Nafash having "many highly evolved creatures". They even found Nafash's corpse and labelled the Protoss as being responsible for her death! Besides, the Protoss are equally affected by the snowstorms, too, remember? If the most adaptive species cannot survive on the planet and yet the Protoss can still reside there, what does that tell you about how powerful the Protoss are on this planet? Kerrigan is definitely the weaker than the Protoss here.

I suspect those "many highly evolved creatures" would be the ones you actually acquire during the missions - Roaches and Hydralisks. I don't think the Protoss being able to survive on the planet says much about their military power. I live in a home with heating, but I don't much fancy my chances against a bear or wolverine or whatever. Even if the Protoss were Khalai (the Caste) they'd have that kind of technology.

But I've attempted to explain how that analogy when applied to Mengsk is somewhat fallacious.

Yeah, but the only point in the analogy was to explain how I could say that Mengsk had absurdly recovered, without having recovered fully. The Dominion never collapsed as thoroughly as the hypothetical empire, because the UED desired the infrastructure intact to maintain its own conquests, they would have caused as little damage as they could. Kerrigan of course didn't care, but we know she returned home to Tarsonis immediately after Korhal, so we know that outside of Augustgrad and Mengsk's encampment on Korhal, she didn't actually destroy anything of the Dominion's.

In fact, that's the non-contradictory option I was going to propose to Gradius if he ever accepted a way to deal with his recovery in both Omega and Wings of Liberty without plot holes. The only reason we think Mengsk is wrecked in True Colors is because of Kerrigan's speech. Now, the subtext is quite clear that this was supposed to be accurate, what with Kerrigan's surprise at Mengsk returning with a fleet in Omega and the epilogue's description of Mengsk's situation. But if you want a consistent explanation, it's there for the taking.

It's because there's the illusion of having lost something that was thought to be deemed significant at first and later turns out that thing wasn't significant in the first place. If Mengsk always had the ability to call on other worlds as a means to maintain or to get his power back, than the loss of the Dominion/his defeat at the hands of the UED was not actually a significant thing to worry about in the first place.

Ah, but you forget that the UED themselves were not satisfied with taking Korhal and feared that left alive, Mengsk would come back to undermine their efforts. Wouldn't that fit precisely with what you're saying about Mengsk?

For the record, also enjoying this debate, even though it's getting intense.

I'm not. You don't seem to be going anywhere. You run back to assumptions about my position I've already corrected multiple times, forget your own positions, make ridiculous unfounded leaps with baseless assertions, simultaneously hold completely opposing positions, argue for long stretches without any idea what the actual topic is, and you're insulting me all the while.

There's no point in continuing with the absurdities of your previous post since you've admitted you're not even arguing on the correct topic, despite being the one to quote my post upon your return, so I'll give you one chance to start off fresh.

What is your point here?

[Telenil]

I am personally affected by the accusation, yes. Because you made it personal. But the actual StarCraft lore? No, if you prove me wrong, then I'll just be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. I'm wondering how much of this thread you've read if you think the disagreements of 'three different people' are equatable. Turalyon has proven me incorrect on several occasions, and I have freely admitted it. Our discussion has significantly progressed from the original topic. Gradius has not, because Gradius seems to be running around in circles. He still pretends not to understand positions I have explained numerous times. I'm not sure who the third is. You? I've barely argued with you at all, not since page 12 or something, anyway. Last post you said you didn't even know what my position was, so how could you disagree with it?

...I am the third, I can see that a claim is problematic even if I am confused as to where the person is going, and that people are likely emotionnally involved in an 18 pages debate should be a no-brainer. This was not supposed to be personal, sorry if you felt it was. What I do believe is that the last page was worth a "this is not going to go anywhere unless we cool down and think this through".
For the records, I didn't have much of an Internet connection in the first half of August, and prioritized Mass Recall over this for obvious reasons.

Yes and no. It's like saying that the UED's primary Power Generators were located on Braxis, and therefore that's evidence that that was where the bulk of the UED's forces were, it's actually a mostly unrelated topic. A staging area is an important logistics point, but it shouldn't where the bulk of the forces are, because the very purpose of a staging area is to be transitory, a place through which troops and materiel pass on their way elsewhere. What that quote is saying is that Korhal was the UED's primary logistics hub, not their strongest military presence. Narrative rules of escalation would suggest that Char, the last great UED force, would be their strongest, and since the very definition of a staging area means that those troops are on their way to actual military fronts that reinforces that deduction.

So your argument in saying Char should be the strongest UED stronghold is narrative rules of escalation. Again not willing to be personnal, it does sound like you just sort of assumed it was.
A rather clear case where narrative escalation didn't happen is The Hammer Fall. The Big Push was the Sons of Korhal fleet against the strongest Confederate garrisons, while the Hammer Fall is a part of the Korhal fleet against Alpha Squadron, after Mengsk's troops had been ordered to leave Tarsonis.
On the other hand, there are a number of things in the actual game pointing towards Korhal being the UED primary position, like it considers Korhal his capital world, and that it is his primary staging point. Speaking of which, I'm taking a closer look at the definiton and the US military dictionnary states:

1. Amphibious or airborne-A general locality between the mounting area and the objective of an amphibious or airborne expedition, through which the expedition or parts thereof pass after mounting, for refueling, regrouping of ships, and/or exercise, inspection, and redistribution of troops.
2. Other movements-A general locality established for the concentration of troop units and transient personnel between movements over the lines of communications. Also called SA.
See also airborne; marshalling; staging.

I think you had the first meaning in mind, do we agree the second is more appropriate? Both cover the idea of "troops gathering here before leaving", but the second is more than that, a transport hub as opposed to a stepover. This fits with Korhal being the capital world of the UED and a strategic objective for Kerrigan. A place being a staging area doesn't mean, by itself, that it is lightly defended, a staging area in the second sense is likely to have large concentrations of troops.

You are correct that I cannot prove this, however what you are forgetting is that this is not what I said was an objective fact. What I said was that in Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk had pulled back all his available assets to help in the defence of Korhal. In Brood War the UED's main force was stationed on Char meaning that not only was Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War. Even if you refuse to accept that the UED Fleet at Char was more important than the forces on Korhal, which is fair, you have to accept that there was a considerable force there that did not participate in Kerrigan's invasion of Korhal, and you have to accept that Mengsk pulled all his available assets to defend Korhal in Heart of the Swarm

Technically true, but Mengsk also had large forces on Char (and Skygeirr) that had already been destroyed. A good reason for not participating in the defense is being dead.
Besides, your demonstration also assumes that the Dominion strength at the beginning of HotS was (more or less) equal to the UED at the beginning of Queen of Blades.

The only reason we think Mengsk is wrecked in True Colors is because of Kerrigan's speech. Now, the subtext is quite clear that this was supposed to be accurate, what with Kerrigan's surprise at Mengsk returning with a fleet in Omega and the epilogue's description of Mengsk's situation. But if you want a consistent explanation, it's there for the taking.

Ah, but you forget that the UED themselves were not satisfied with taking Korhal and feared that left alive, Mengsk would come back to undermine their efforts. Wouldn't that fit precisely with what you're saying about Mengsk?

Kerrigan didn't believe Arcturus would be a threat without an empire, whereas the UED did. And DuGalle had probably understood Mengsk better, because even with his own forces collapsed, Arcturus managed to bargain non-Dominion Terran into gathering a fleet against Kerrigan.

In fact, that's the non-contradictory option I was going to propose to Gradius if he ever accepted a way to deal with his recovery in both Omega and Wings of Liberty without plot holes.

Again, please clarify what you are trying to demonstrate.
If memory serves, your original argument was "I agree that the WoL recovery is absurd, but so was the recovery in Omega". This is the idea my arguments are an answer to. You then followed with arguments along the line of "Kerrigan had it easier in Brood War", which sometimes ignored evidence from the game but were in any case confusing because they seem to be about how absurd the Starcraft 2 recovery was or was not (I thought we always agreed that it was). Now that line feels you are arguing for a position implying that the Dominion state is neither absurd in Omega nor in Starcraft 2.
If this is not the way the discussion flowed for you, please spell out what your vision is.

I know what I've been arguing for: 1) True Colors leaves the Dominion a shadow of its former (pre-UED) self, 2) Mengsk only managed to gather his Omega fleet because other Terran groups are far more concerned about Kerrigan than they were about him (a reasonning not unlike DuGalle's, only on a smaller scale), 3) this is not absurd. Do we (more or less) agree on these three points, or not?
I don't currently feel arguments about Heart of the Swarm are particularly relevant on that point, because none of these Brood War events are ever mentionned in Starcraft 2.

[Turalyon]

You know, a thought just occurred to me. Here we are still discussing the plausibility of Mengsk's position between BW and WoL, when we haven't even discussed a possible discontinuity between Mengsk's power levels between WoL and HotS.

During WoL, we have Char emptied of Zerg that then go ravaging the K sector. This is considered the end-times for all concerned that are non-Zerg. Yet somehow, half of the Dominion fleet is able to abscond and assault Char. Even in it's weakest state, the Zerg on Char are able to obliterate the majority of this fleet. Given this information, we have to consider how the rest of the sector is faring because if the meat of the Zerg's power is assaulting Terran and Protoss holdings early on, how would Mengsk and the remaining Terrans in WoL actually fare better with only his remaining half of the Dominion fleet?

In HotS, Mengsk seems to have recovered enough of a force to find and chase down Kerrigan on Umoja, consolidate on Char and have a lasting presence on it, and give the Swarm pause at Korhal despite having numerous support worlds being overrun earlier. The gap was only three weeks between WoL and HotS. Were the Zerg attacks in WoL even less devastating than what was implied (which wasn't much at all in the first place really). How does one go about explaining this, I wonder?

See, that's an interesting question. Do we really have any idea how powerful the UED Fleet actually was when they showed up? They had to loot the Dominion's own shipyards for ships, their arrival caught everyone by surprise, and part of the briefing for Emperor's Fall notes that they have cut Mengsk off from reinforcements, and yet even so his standing forces were substantial. They were ineffective against the Protoss on Braxis, and DuGalle admits that they would never had the strength to land on Char if not for the Psi Disrupter they salvaged from the Confederacy (doesn't mean much of course, given that the Zerg are infinitely powerful). Later on, they are supplemented by slave Broods, but the sum total of the UED's solo achievements in the Koprulu Sector is usurping Mengsk at the head of the Dominion. Maybe they were weaker than the Dominion, considering how much they had to depend on local resources. Perhaps if they hadn't caught Mengsk by surprise, and he'd been able to form a defensive cocoon like he did in Heart of the Swarm, the UED would have faltered at the first hurdle. I don't know. This is pure speculation.

The notion that the UED actually being relatively and physically weak (in terms of man and ship power) from the get-go compared to Mengsk is quite an interesting theory. However, this also complicates things a great deal because by losing the hold on Korhal, their remaining original standing forces on Char when the neo-Overmind was killed and having no further means to bolster themselves at that point, you would also have a case for the UED being absurdly recovered for Omega as well.

It also brings into question the nature of Terran strength. If, like Mengsk, the UED only had real strength (meaning the potential and the capability to apply it) when they maneuvered themselves politically enough (the potential) to allow them to use such strength, wouldn't that mean that this real strength lies in unmentioned other entities and power brokers? If that's so, why would they support the Dominion 2.0/Mengsk having control over all Terran affairs again after seeing him lose to such a relatively weak (as speculated) enemy in the UED? Can we really equate Mengsk getting an army as him having his Dominion reconsituted and lording over all Terrans again as the same thing?

As to the "not having the strength to land on Char", that somehow didn't stop Mengsk and DuGalle making individual attempts in Omega anyway...

Wait, wait. Your new evidence completely changes how I'd assumed things were going, and I kinda need us to rebuild from the get-go here, sorry. When do you suggest that he has absurdly recovered? Are you suggesting that he lost his The Hammer Falls fleet on Char during Agent of the Swarm, and then rebuilt another for Eye of the Storm? 'Cause I would totally agree that it was absurd.

Yes. Following Agent of the Swarm, Raynor is seen twice later on in The Hunt for Tassadar and Homeland being represented as a single Terran unit. This implies that he's is on his own and/or lost his fleet in Agent of the Swarm. But then we see him in Eye of the Storm with an army! How do you know which parts you should or should not ignore as being irrelevant due to just being "gameplay" reasons? Why in this instance, is Raynor still considered inherently weak here (and forever more it seems) and considered acceptable when he shows absurd recovery here? Why is Mengsk exempt? He was systematically shown to be inherently weak and yet his absurd recovery is somehow evidence that his Dominion was intact (the implication being he wasn't weak at all to begin with)?

Well yeah, but Kerrigan is also incompetent as evidenced by her displays in Brood War yet she still ends up on top, so there's precedent .

Heh, but when does Kerrigan's incompetence ever actually set her back/harm her significantly in anyway? For Mengsk, it has affected him multiple times in negative ways and then all of a sudden at the end... he's on top again somehow. Sure, it's all dependent on the conceit of having Kerrigan being the winner and everyone being the loser/dumb, but even by accepting that conceit it makes Mengsk's situation stick out in particular.

I suspect those "many highly evolved creatures" would be the ones you actually acquire during the missions - Roaches and Hydralisks. I don't think the Protoss being able to survive on the planet says much about their military power. I live in a home with heating, but I don't much fancy my chances against a bear or wolverine or whatever. Even if the Protoss were Khalai (the Caste) they'd have that kind of technology.

That Nafash already had advanced creatures and Kerrigan did not, implies that Kerrigan was weaker than Nafash when she landed on Kaldir. They both still shared the weakness to Kaldir's extreme temperature so that doesn't matter when comparing Nafash's forces and Kerrigan's.

You've mentioned that Nafash and her army succumbed to the weather on Kaldir, which then naturally implies the Zerg are at a distinct disadvantage compared to the Protoss because they can and have been shown to survive since they are still there when Kerrigan arrives on Kaldir. Size, composition and skill/tactics are all components of a successful army, but the weather/conditions in which you fight is also an important factor. The Protoss have that over Nafash and Kerrigan.

Also, you haven't commented on the fact that Izsha comments on the Protoss actually being responsible for killing Nafash. All of the above points to the Protoss being more powerful than Kerrigan at that time.

Yeah, but the only point in the analogy was to explain how I could say that Mengsk had absurdly recovered, without having recovered fully. The Dominion never collapsed as thoroughly as the hypothetical empire, because the UED desired the infrastructure intact to maintain its own conquests, they would have caused as little damage as they could. Kerrigan of course didn't care, but we know she returned home to Tarsonis immediately after Korhal, so we know that outside of Augustgrad and Mengsk's encampment on Korhal, she didn't actually destroy anything of the Dominion's.

In fact, that's the non-contradictory option I was going to propose to Gradius if he ever accepted a way to deal with his recovery in both Omega and Wings of Liberty without plot holes. The only reason we think Mengsk is wrecked in True Colors is because of Kerrigan's speech. Now, the subtext is quite clear that this was supposed to be accurate, what with Kerrigan's surprise at Mengsk returning with a fleet in Omega and the epilogue's description of Mengsk's situation. But if you want a consistent explanation, it's there for the taking.

The Dominion isn't the infrastructure, it's just the government that controls the infrastructure. We know that the institution known as the Dominion ceased to exist because the UED were very exact in dealing with the remaining people that made up the Dominion. It's how they would've been in a position to control the infrastructure from that point on to bolster themselves. The very few remaining people that helped make the Dominion were then further extinguished when Kerrigan decided to do what she did in True Colours.

Ah, but you forget that the UED themselves were not satisfied with taking Korhal and feared that left alive, Mengsk would come back to undermine their efforts. Wouldn't that fit precisely with what you're saying about Mengsk?

I didn't forget. The UED would still want to "cross the t and dot the i" by making sure Mengsk is "controlled" (ie: dead), much like how any authority would want to capture an escaped convicted criminal who has become a fugitive. Especially so when unidentified parties were involved in helping him become fugitive in the first place. What it doesn't mean is that the Dominion as an institution is still viable and has all it's powers and priveleges intact in actuality. Otherwise, the UED wouldn't have been able use the Terran infrastructure left behind because the Dominion still existed. In turn, this would mean there was nothing to recover from because Mengsk didn't technically lose anything of objective significance.

[Gradius]

What that quote is saying is that Korhal was the UED's primary logistics hub, not their strongest military presence. Narrative rules of escalation would suggest that Char, the last great UED force, would be their strongest, and since the very definition of a staging area means that those troops are on their way to actual military fronts that reinforces that deduction.

You are correct that I cannot prove this, however what you are forgetting is that this is not what I said was an objective fact. What I said was that in Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk had pulled back all his available assets to help in the defence of Korhal. In Brood War the UED's main force was stationed on Char meaning that not only was Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority.

Who cares? Kerrigan destroyed the UED forces on Char too, just like she defeated Mengsk's other forces across the sector in HoTS. Doesn't this violate your rule of only talking about the "actual invasion of Korhal"? There's no proof that Mengsk "had pulled back all his available assets". Mengsk merely gave the order for the fleets to return to Korhal because it was under attack, and obviously the UED would have done the same in BW. You're a victim of confirmation bias, that's why you consider everything to be "objective fact" that is evidence for your position. And now "narrative rules of escalation" is evidence for your position too? Oh boy.

I mean, Telenil doesn't have to accept that there's a bigger force anywhere at all. It is neither stated anywhere in the game, nor is there a "gather 10000 minerals" mission before Char. Never mind the fact that we're leagues away from the main topic of Dominion recovery. Stop trying to switch goalposts.

I'm not. You don't seem to be going anywhere. You run back to assumptions about my position I've already corrected multiple times, forget your own positions, make ridiculous unfounded leaps with baseless assertions, simultaneously hold completely opposing positions, argue for long stretches without any idea what the actual topic is, and you're insulting me all the while.

There's no point in continuing with the absurdities of your previous post since you've admitted you're not even arguing on the correct topic, despite being the one to quote my post upon your return, so I'll give you one chance to start off fresh.

What is your point here?

It's a heated debate and my posts aren't meant as insults, just like I'm assuming your posts aren't meant as insults. If you're genuinely bothered by this, send me a PM and I'll stop posting.

Anyway, you don't get to accuse me of holding contradictory positions when you've been telling me how the Dominion is weaker in HoTS than in BW, yet how much harder the invasion of Korhal was in HoTS than in BW. It's like saying that they're both strong and weak at the same time. And my point is the same as when I first replied to you, that "I was complaining about the fact that Mengsk and the Dominion posed an actual challenge to the swarm (evidence of how ridiculous the WoL recovery was)". Then when I try to steer the discussion back to Dominion recovery you reply "Do you not even know what you're arguing? Of course it has nothing to do with the Dominion's recovery!" Please do not mistake my unwillingness to engage your strawmen or moving goalposts as an inability to follow the topic.

You know, a thought just occurred to me. Here we are still discussing the plausibility of Mengsk's position between BW and WoL, when we haven't even discussed a possible discontinuity between Mengsk's power levels between WoL and HotS.

During WoL, we have Char emptied of Zerg that then go ravaging the K sector. This is considered the end-times for all concerned that are non-Zerg. Yet somehow, half of the Dominion fleet is able to abscond and assault Char. Even in it's weakest state, the Zerg on Char are able to obliterate the majority of this fleet. Given this information, we have to consider how the rest of the sector is faring because if the meat of the Zerg's power is assaulting Terran and Protoss holdings early on, how would Mengsk and the remaining Terrans in WoL actually fare better with only his remaining half of the Dominion fleet?

In HotS, Mengsk seems to have recovered enough of a force to find and chase down Kerrigan on Umoja, consolidate on Char and have a lasting presence on it, and give the Swarm pause at Korhal despite having numerous support worlds being overrun earlier. The gap was only three weeks between WoL and HotS. Were the Zerg attacks in WoL even less devastating than what was implied (which wasn't much at all in the first place really). How does one go about explaining this, I wonder?

Pretty much been saying this since HoTS came out. The only real explanation is to retcon more planets into existence like usual. :P