Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[FanaticTemplar]

You still haven't demonstrated how indebting yourself to scrounge up a new fleet is evidence of a "recovery".

Even if you don't believe that he's indebting himself, and that the fleet is in fact his (it's not), that's still not a recovery. That's him using his last reserves, and getting them destroyed. This sets the stage for his WoL recovery being impossible.

You're saying that Kerrigan left Mengsk with a full endgame fleet after True Colors?

No... I was complaining about the fact that Mengsk and the Dominion posed an actual challenge to the swarm (evidence of how ridiculous the WoL recovery was). And as explained, the "handicaps" you mention are irrelevant. Kerrigan had it worse in BW and managed to steamroll Korhal with ease.

1- That's just false.
2- The Zerg are infinitely powerful since Brood War, so even if they could do the same then, that is just another arrow in my quiver.

How can you be so sure that Raynor doesn't or can't have access to Battlecruisers?

I don't need to. There is no evidence that Raynor had a fleet of Battlecruisers, having a fleet of Battlecruisers would be a plot hole, why would I assume he does?

I'm curious whether you would rail against the idea of Raynor happening to have multiple BC's/being visibly more powerful in WoL (I still don't know what the official word on this is) because really he's had absurd comebacks prior to this and therefore cannot be be described as being "weak".

I don't know, maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. It would probably depend a lot on the circumstances surrounding it and the extent of his full power. I can't really answer that kind of hypothetical.

Raynor clearly had enough fire/manpower to survive a battle with the Overmind's royal guard, so why isn't that evidence that Raynor's is not weak/fully recovered (since you still think that Raynor is always "weak")?

He had enough fire/manpower to survive a battle with Selendis' fleet in Wings of Liberty, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

When contrasted to Mengsk clearly having enough fire/manpower to wage a battle against Kerrigan's (small) defensive force in Omega despite being established as being weak, this is somehow evidence that he is not weak/fully recovered.

I assume you mean "(small) defensive force" in contrast to "the entirety of the infinitely powerful Swarm", and the difference is that Raynor was clearly assisting the Protoss force, whereas Mengsk is portrayed as an equal third of the Omega armies, and clearly presented in possession of a powerful fleet.

This still hinges on the notion that he first had recovered fully at all for Omega.

What? No.

Look, imagine I lose 100 units of whatever. Then the next day I regain 10 units. I have not fully recovered from my loss. But if I continue regaining units at the same rate, in ten days I will have. What you're telling me is that it's perfectly reasonable to regain 10 units a day, but not reasonable to regain 100 units in ten days. I'm saying that recovering 10 units in a day is ridiculous in the first place. Take the difference between Mengsk after True Colors and before Omega, multiply that difference by somewhere between 208 and 260, and you'll get Wings of Liberty Mengsk or better.

Not quite. Kerrigan had dropped significant levels (compared to the height of her powers when she was fully infested) and could only command a small army of Zerg at that point in time. Given Zerg strength is dependent on numbers and that any single Protoss can kill many times their number in Zerg before falling, Kerrigan is indeed a weaker opponent. If she wasn't that weak, she wouldn't feel the need to go infest herself again to fight the weak Dominion forces/Mengsk.

You're conflating "Kerrigan is weaker than she had been in the past" with "Kerrigan is weaker than these Protoss colonists". The first is correct, the second is dubious.

This is by no means clear with what we've been given so far. If it's as easy as saying that and producing Artanis' presence in Omega as evidence of the Protoss recovery, why are people still complaining about Protoss being weak then?

Because they are. In The Fall the Protoss could almost go toe to toe with the entire Zerg Swarm. In Omega they got defeated by a fraction of Kerrigan's armies even with the assistance of the UED and Dominion.

Well, really it's not that bad because all the writers have to do is just make a plot device that weakens the Zerg that actually sticks. What with all the arse-pull plot devices you've already listed, surely it can't be that hard now to make up yet another one. Can the continuance of Zerg dominance in Sc2 really be blamed on them being written with that specific purpose or is it due to the introduction and reliance on (supposedly) powerful and poorly conceived plot devices designed to hinder them necessitating it to be written that the Zerg overpower them in order to remain relevant?

It's fiction, it can be fixed as easily as the authours deciding to make it so. I mean, that how they got to be overpowered in the first place. There's reasons why they don't do it, but that's not really the issue here.

You know, this is the exact reason why I was content for BW to be the actual "full-stop" end of Starcraft's story way back when. It was definitive such that a sequel was not really necessary.

Sure, except Brood War sucked. I would have preferred that they just pretend it never happened :P.

I can see why this could bother you, but given the way BW ended, I never expected a narratively viable sequel anyway because such a thing would just have Kerrigan steamroll over everyone (whether she then gets steamrolled in turn by this "greater threat on the horizon" or not is superfluous). Sc2 is a commercially viable sequel and as such it has to have some changes (the "certain point of view" altering of the dynamics/power levels of the other races, reprioritising what the grand threat is) whilst retaining other things (the Zerg being top-dog) to justify the sequel tag.

The ignoring of BW argument is more to do with Sc2 being able to start directly from Sc1 without needing much adjustment to account for it. In BW, we don't even have to know that Mengsk got defeated in BW, that the UED invaded/made an impact, that Raynor swore vengeance against Kerrigan, that Shakuras got totalled, that Zeratul knew about Hybrids or that Kerrigan/the Zerg became top-dog. The setup of Sc2 can immediately follow on from Sc1, with Kerrigan sitting on and then marshalling out of Char somehow inheriting the Overmind's ability to control all the Zerg, Mengsk's Dominion being the dominant Terran force, Raynor being marginalised/weak, the Protoss not appearing due to them having to rebuild.

Yep, but as I have said, all that is because of how Brood War ended. I'm upset about it too, but I recognise that the blame goes to Brood War for not doing anything that would cause a lasting impact (except the evacuation of Aiur, which you'll note remained consistent with StarCraft II, and the introduction of the Hybrids, which is the central plot of the sequel.)

In what way? How? Why? What's worse than them not even making it to Char to even initiate an invasion at all?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you sure that you are properly understanding that I expected them to do better than they did? I expected the Terrans to do better than they did?

That's right, could as in the possibility of it. They didn't invade Char because there's the possibility that they can't - an assumption easily formed due to their recent history of being shown to be weak.

Sure, possibilities as much as you like.

[Turalyon]

Still enjoying the debate....

I don't need to. There is no evidence that Raynor had a fleet of Battlecruisers, having a fleet of Battlecruisers would be a plot hole, why would I assume he does?

Because in Eye of the Storm Raynor appears to be capable of fighting on his lonesome. This is, incidentally, the exact same logic you used to explain Mengsk's supposed recovery. I've been accused of cherry-picking, which I accept to a degree, but can't you see that this is what you're doing here with Raynor? You've just assumed Raynor is weak and disregarded his display in Eye of the Storm in the same way that you accuse me/others that it's wrong to think Mengsk is weak and disregarding his display in Omega. Like Mengsk at the end of BW, you should also be saying that Raynor is recovered and strong at the end of Sc1.

Really, there's nothing stopping one from thinking the same way about Mengsk when he appears in Omega. So the briefing identifies 3 separate fleets, does it go into detail what each fleet is really composed of? You're just asssuming Mengsk has a fleet of BC because he once controlled the Dominion. But the thing is we know that he's been humbled and been brought low before this fight. If we are not to trust what we see in the mission (which you cite as just for gameplay reasons), one can also easily assume that his fleet could've just been a bunch of trash barges...

It would probably depend a lot on the circumstances surrounding it and the extent of his full power.

We've attempted to give you such to explain Mengsk's presence in Omega but then you've dismissed it as nothing but speculation. Based on what you've said so far in regards to the story needing "suspension of disbelief" in certain areas to make it worth telling and the acceptance of absurd comebacks in general, I would presume you wouldn't mind... unless (which I'm sensing) you have a predilection for wanting to think Raynor is always weak. Thing is, we don't actually want to think Mengsk is weak because it is shown for the vast majority and consistently that he is. Much like Raynor still showing up time and time again but still being classified as "weak" due to the circumstances he goes through, this is the same line that Mengsk goes through in BW.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I'm holding you up to your own standards by questioning why you would think Raynor is "weak" when there is "evidence" that he is not. You seem to ignore the fact that Mengsk was weak in BW and say he was always strong in BW and then go on to say that Raynor was always weak and then ignoring all the things that indicate he was not. Is this a double standard?

and the difference is that Raynor was clearly assisting the Protoss force, whereas Mengsk is portrayed as an equal third of the Omega armies, and clearly presented in possession of a powerful fleet.

How do you know that they are truly equal or powerful without looking at the mission map. It's just an assumption you've made. You've already dismissed Raynor's presence on the game map in Eye of the Storm as purely for gameplay reasons, so why can't I do that for Mengsk in Omega?

What? No.

Look, imagine I lose 100 units of whatever. Then the next day I regain 10 units. I have not fully recovered from my loss. But if I continue regaining units at the same rate, in ten days I will have. What you're telling me is that it's perfectly reasonable to regain 10 units a day, but not reasonable to regain 100 units in ten days. I'm saying that recovering 10 units in a day is ridiculous in the first place. Take the difference between Mengsk after True Colors and before Omega, multiply that difference by somewhere between 208 and 260, and you'll get Wings of Liberty Mengsk or better.

Thanks for the analogy - it really helped. However, our argument is in regards to the potential behind the rate of recovery (the 10 units per day). Essentially what we're saying is that he may be able to get the first 10 units on one particular a day (a willing suspension of disbelief sure), but that this is not something that is sustainable or repeatable because of his recent history. With that context, the rate of growth is predicated on him keeping those 10 units and building on it at the least to keep it stable. Even if the growth was logarithmic, if he loses 9 of those 10 initial units, he would still actually need more time to get back to 2 units let alone 10 and that's if he even can at all given his myriad crushing defeats beforehand.

You're conflating "Kerrigan is weaker than she had been in the past" with "Kerrigan is weaker than these Protoss colonists". The first is correct, the second is dubious.

The second is only dubious because it is only later shown not to be with the plot dictating Kerrigan win and the Protoss being handicapped by plot device. The Protoss are established in that region and have their full complement of units whereas in contrast, Kerrigan is not and does not.

Because they are.

I can't get a grip on your thoughts about this. You seem to deem an absurd comeback as evidence of recovery in one instance but not others.

Sure, except Brood War sucked. I would have preferred that they just pretend it never happened :P.

Heh, fair enough. Luckily for me, I like Zerg so I didn't mind as much.

Yep, but as I have said, all that is because of how Brood War ended. I'm upset about it too, but I recognise that the blame goes to Brood War for not doing anything that would cause a lasting impact (except the evacuation of Aiur, which you'll note remained consistent with StarCraft II, and the introduction of the Hybrids, which is the central plot of the sequel.)

I think BW should bear quite a lot of the blame, don't get me wrong, but it shouldn't be blamed for everything. BW has shown us that endings don't necessarily have to be "down pat" because look what it did to Sc1's ending! We can blame BW for that. But, when BW ends the way it does, we still have to blame BW for not making an impact when it is really WoL that had decided not to change or capitalise on anything in BW. I can't accept that double standard.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you sure that you are properly understanding that I expected them to do better than they did? I expected the Terrans to do better than they did?

Obviously, I'm not getting the whole picture. You may have to spell it out like I'm a kid.

I thought we were just talking about the invasion of Char with that specific force at their disposal, not just the whole Terrans lumped together. If you are talking about that, I don't see why anyone would believe the Terrans are capable of anything these days what with having their majority of their largest colonies being demolished in Sc1 and then having their most powerful, yet upstart Terran faction being dismantled just as quickly as it was formed.

[Gradius]

You're saying that Kerrigan left Mengsk with a full endgame fleet after True Colors?

Isn't that what you believe since you keep insisting that the fleet in Omega is his? It'd be a far more logical conclusion on your part than "miracle recovery".

Like I said before, I believe he had to beg others to give him a new fleet. Since, you know, he basically says so. :P

1- That's just false.

No it isn't. It's an inconvenient truth, but every character from the game will tell you so.

Zagara: "I have never seen so many terrans."

Ishza: "There were so many ways to fail. I did not think we would make it to the surface. But we did."

Kerrigan: "Their orbital defenses will kill millions of us before we even hit the ground…"

Kerrigan: "Toughest fight of our lives."

Now obviously they're still the swarm and have an advantage, but the Dominion were a far bigger challenge than they ever were in BW. I mean, they were using actual military tactics against the swarm like distraction attacks (to prevent them from dealing with the destroyer), and Mengsk frequently implied that the Dominion could win just because of their military (i.e. men, wipe out the swarm, wipe out the queen of blades). All this points to the fact that the Dominion could actually fight the swarm toe to toe. There's more, but you realize Blizzard was obligated to write the story around this concept right? Because they didn't want to make the final boss in their campaign look like an easy steamroll victory.

2- The Zerg are infinitely powerful since Brood War

Since SC1.

[FanaticTemplar]

Still enjoying the debate....



Because in Eye of the Storm Raynor appears to be capable of fighting on his lonesome. This is, incidentally, the exact same logic you used to explain Mengsk's supposed recovery. I've been accused of cherry-picking, which I accept to a degree, but can't you see that this is what you're doing here with Raynor? You've just assumed Raynor is weak and disregarded his display in Eye of the Storm in the same way that you accuse me/others that it's wrong to think Mengsk is weak and disregarding his display in Omega. Like Mengsk at the end of BW, you should also be saying that Raynor is recovered and strong at the end of Sc1.

Really, there's nothing stopping one from thinking the same way about Mengsk when he appears in Omega. So the briefing identifies 3 separate fleets, does it go into detail what each fleet is really composed of? You're just asssuming Mengsk has a fleet of BC because he once controlled the Dominion. But the thing is we know that he's been humbled and been brought low before this fight. If we are not to trust what we see in the mission (which you cite as just for gameplay reasons), one can also easily assume that his fleet could've just been a bunch of trash barges...

The issue here is actually that Mengsk's Omega fleet is clearly equated to the other two fleets present through the narrative, whereas there is never any indication in the story that Raynor's Raiders in Eye of the Storm is equally powerful to the newly united Protoss species. Now, if you want to go on the issue that all three fleets could be equally weak, then sure, that's possible, but there is never any indication in the story that there is anybody (other than the Zerg) stronger than these three factions, so how strong or weak doesn't really matter insofar as Mengsk remaining the top dog in the Terran hierarchy.

We've attempted to give you such to explain Mengsk's presence in Omega but then you've dismissed it as nothing but speculation. Based on what you've said so far in regards to the story needing "suspension of disbelief" in certain areas to make it worth telling and the acceptance of absurd comebacks in general, I would presume you wouldn't mind... unless (which I'm sensing) you have a predilection for wanting to think Raynor is always weak. Thing is, we don't actually want to think Mengsk is weak because it is shown for the vast majority and consistently that he is. Much like Raynor still showing up time and time again but still being classified as "weak" due to the circumstances he goes through, this is the same line that Mengsk goes through in BW.

No, being powerful wouldn't necessarily bother me, one need only imagine that his rebellion has gained in popularity, or that he has the backing of other influential factions, or whatever. But if he, say, had overthrown Mengsk off-screen, then that would be a problem. Again, these are just a number of examples. The hypothetical is too vague for me to give a precise answer.

I'm holding you up to your own standards by questioning why you would think Raynor is "weak" when there is "evidence" that he is not. You seem to ignore the fact that Mengsk was weak in BW and say he was always strong in BW and then go on to say that Raynor was always weak and then ignoring all the things that indicate he was not. Is this a double standard?

No, recovery means that he was weakened, then grew stronger again. Mengsk was obviously weakened after Emperor's Fall and True Colors, then inexplicably showed up strong again for Omega.

How do you know that they are truly equal or powerful without looking at the mission map. It's just an assumption you've made. You've already dismissed Raynor's presence on the game map in Eye of the Storm as purely for gameplay reasons, so why can't I do that for Mengsk in Omega?

It's not gameplay reasons, it's narrative reasons. The briefing always refers to the three fleets as being essentially equivalent. There is no expression of one fleet being substantially larger or smaller than the others, there is no hierarchy in the presentation of the commanding characters. The presentation is quite clear.

Thanks for the analogy - it really helped. However, our argument is in regards to the potential behind the rate of recovery (the 10 units per day). Essentially what we're saying is that he may be able to get the first 10 units on one particular a day (a willing suspension of disbelief sure), but that this is not something that is sustainable or repeatable because of his recent history. With that context, the rate of growth is predicated on him keeping those 10 units and building on it at the least to keep it stable. Even if the growth was logarithmic, if he loses 9 of those 10 initial units, he would still actually need more time to get back to 2 units let alone 10 and that's if he even can at all given his myriad crushing defeats beforehand.

Sure, I was simplifying for the analogy, and I'm sure you don't actually believe that Wings of Liberty Mengsk is 208/260 times more powerful than Omega Mengsk?

Anyway, while the progression is not linear, it's not necessarily logarithmic either. If you will allow me to venture into pure hypothetical, I imagine it would be at first - there are simply fewer resources for him to draw from as time advances. However, after a sustained peace has been established, his resources would start growing again. For instance, it is surely easier for Mengsk to obtain himself an Omega sized fleet after two years of productive peace than immediately after the devastation of his capital world, so I should expect that a few years into his recovery, things would actually be improving faster.

The second is only dubious because it is only later shown not to be with the plot dictating Kerrigan win and the Protoss being handicapped by plot device. The Protoss are established in that region and have their full complement of units whereas in contrast, Kerrigan is not and does not.

The Protoss are established there, but it isn't a military outpost.

I can't get a grip on your thoughts about this. You seem to deem an absurd comeback as evidence of recovery in one instance but not others.

No, no. Again, ridiculous recovery does not equal full recovery. The Protoss' absurd recovery for Omega doesn't mean they're not still weak.

Heh, fair enough. Luckily for me, I like Zerg so I didn't mind as much.

Even as a Zerg fan, Brood War is the game that removed all the actual Zerg characters from the game (amazingly, Heart of the Swarm actually did something better here by introducing Abathur and Zagara) and turned the Zerg into a weapon to be used by other people rather than characters in their own right (Heart of the Swam stayed the course on this one.)

I think BW should bear quite a lot of the blame, don't get me wrong, but it shouldn't be blamed for everything. BW has shown us that endings don't necessarily have to be "down pat" because look what it did to Sc1's ending! We can blame BW for that. But, when BW ends the way it does, we still have to blame BW for not making an impact when it is really WoL that had decided not to change or capitalise on anything in BW. I can't accept that double standard.

It's not a double standard. Being consistent with the previous game's ending is neutral. Changing the previous game's ending for the better is good, changing the previous game for the worse is bad. Wings of Liberty doesn't gain any commendation for remaining consistent with some of the bad choices made in Brood War, but it is not responsible for Brood War's mistakes.

I mean, I say that objectively, but subjectively, I do in fact blame Wings of Liberty for not fixing those screw-ups. I just blame Brood War more :P.

Obviously, I'm not getting the whole picture. You may have to spell it out like I'm a kid.

I thought we were just talking about the invasion of Char with that specific force at their disposal, not just the whole Terrans lumped together. If you are talking about that, I don't see why anyone would believe the Terrans are capable of anything these days what with having their majority of their largest colonies being demolished in Sc1 and then having their most powerful, yet upstart Terran faction being dismantled just as quickly as it was formed.

I mean I expected Raynor's Raiders and Warfield/Valerian's Dominion Fleet to be able to hold some ground on Char for a reasonable length of time, even without a deus ex machina or most of Kerrigan's fleets being absent. I'm using Duke's Alpha Squadron force from Overmind as a precedent: Duke held steady on Char for - relative to Wings of Liberty - an eternity, to the point that he was still there and foolishly willing to fight the Protoss too when the Executor shows up. And until the actual invasion of Aiur begins, Char housed the entirety of the Zerg Swarm. And Duke didn't have a magical plot device. Obviously most of this is the Zerg's power retcon, but it's still establishing that the Terran Dominion can hold ground on Char against the Swarm. And while the Terrans suffered losses since then, the Zerg have also suffered through the battle of Aiur and the Brood War, so they should theoretically be weaker too. The alternative, of course, is that Duke is a military genius that Raynor and Warfield just can't hope to match :P.

Isn't that what you believe since you keep insisting that the fleet in Omega is his? It'd be a far more logical conclusion on your part than "miracle recovery".

No, as I mentioned quite clearly in other posts, it is quite clear that he purchased that fleet. If you want to claim that he still had that fleet after True Colors, I can play that game. If you want to claim that he didn't have that fleet after True Colors, then obviously it's not his last reserves. It is something he has gained since True Colors, and a recovery.

Like I said before, I believe he had to beg others to give him a new fleet. Since, you know, he basically says so. :P

Quotes or it didn't happen.

No it isn't. It's an inconvenient truth, but every character from the game will tell you so.

Zagara: "I have never seen so many terrans."

Ishza: "There were so many ways to fail. I did not think we would make it to the surface. But we did."

Kerrigan: "Their orbital defenses will kill millions of us before we even hit the ground…"

Kerrigan: "Toughest fight of our lives."

Now obviously they're still the swarm and have an advantage, but the Dominion were a far bigger challenge than they ever were in BW. I mean, they were using actual military tactics against the swarm like distraction attacks (to prevent them from dealing with the destroyer), and Mengsk frequently implied that the Dominion could win just because of their military (i.e. men, wipe out the swarm, wipe out the queen of blades). All this points to the fact that the Dominion could actually fight the swarm toe to toe. There's more, but you realize Blizzard was obligated to write the story around this concept right? Because they didn't want to make the final boss in their campaign look like an easy steamroll victory.

In Brood War, Kerrigan used the entirety of the Zerg at her command, plus the Terran Dominion and Protoss Templar as allies, to invade Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan leaves most of her Leviathans behind and only gets the help of the Hyperion in the final moments of the conflict. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.
In Brood War, Mengsk has pulled back all his available assets to help in the defence of Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm the UED's main force is stationed on Char meaning that not only is Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.
In Brood War, The UED pulled out some Zerg to help in the defence of Korhal, but not many because they had trouble controlling the Overmind. In Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk pulls out a weapon that completely annihilates all Zerg that come within its city-protecting range. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.
In Brood War, Kerrigan was infesting Terrans to use as suicide bombers against the UED. In Heart of the Swarm, Kerrigan is handicapping herself to prevent unnecessary Terran casualties. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

But Kerrigan says that this will be the toughest fight of their lives while talking to people who weren't present during that earlier invasion of Korhal, and Mengsk spouts propaganda about overcoming the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is their heritage, so clearly she must have had it worse in Brood War.

Reality is quite clear about the invasion in Heart of the Swarm being harder than the one in Brood War, all you've got in your corner are the dubious opinions of two of the most untrustworthy and unreliable characters in the series. There's your inconvenient truth.

Since SC1.

Nope.

[Turalyon]

The issue here is actually that Mengsk's Omega fleet is clearly equated to the other two fleets present through the narrative, whereas there is never any indication in the story that Raynor's Raiders in Eye of the Storm is equally powerful to the newly united Protoss species.

I've pored through the BW transcript and there is nothing that explicitly suggests that each of the three fleets are of equal power. There is plenty of posturing going on and there is general talk of there being three separate fleets but no clear indications that they are equal. We can only and really judge that they are equal based on what is presented in the actual mission itself. However, since you have disregarded this as evidence in Raynor's case, I would expect you do the same for Mengsk in Omega.

Now, if you want to go on the issue that all three fleets could be equally weak, then sure, that's possible, but there is never any indication in the story that there is anybody (other than the Zerg) stronger than these three factions, so how strong or weak doesn't really matter insofar as Mengsk remaining the top dog in the Terran hierarchy.

I think the problem we have here is what parameters and context we are using to define "strength". People have argued that in WoL, Raynor seems absurdly strong due to his capability of pulling off so many victories with so few resources/losses and being drunk. The typical response to this is that Raynor only seems to be strong because our perspective is constrained to Raynor's POV and that in reality, his victories really don't amount to much. Whilst that may be all fine and good to say, the narrative is actually accentuating (or more encouraging of) the former opinion over the latter one.

In BW, the narrative beat of the story clearly points out the inherent weakness of the native Terran forces but also, in particular, the inherent weakness of Mengsk as a leader and the Dominion as an effective representation of that force. Literally anyone can form an army in that universe, doesn't mean they are powerful/strong. Just because they show up at a certain point and they are apparently the focus of what we're currently looking at, doesn't mean that the universe revolves around them and that they're all powerful. It is deemed acceptable to think this for Raynor but not Mengsk. Why do the blows Raynor take relegate him to the status of weak/getting weaker whilst the blows that Mengsk take relegate his status to unmoved/inconsequential or even improving?

But if he, say, had overthrown Mengsk off-screen, then that would be a problem.

Forget it being off-screen, do you think Raynor is capable of overthrowing Mengsk generally on his own and why? If Mengsk's apparent weakness didn't stop him from somehow still being able to dictate all Terran affairs, how does Raynor's apparent weakness stop him from being able to topple Mengsk?

The briefing always refers to the three fleets as being essentially equivalent. There is no expression of one fleet being substantially larger or smaller than the others, there is no hierarchy in the presentation of the commanding characters. The presentation is quite clear.

I'm tempted to bring out the old "absence of evidence is not..." quote. It really is an assumption on your part, especially so when we cannot trust what we see in the actual mission because it's "gameplay related". All we know for sure is that there are 3 fleets (a collective noun that has no specific numeric value) that are not aligned/communicating together and are attacking from 3 separate fronts. All we really have to go on is previous context to make judgements on relative power of each of the three fleets.

Sure, I was simplifying for the analogy, and I'm sure you don't actually believe that Wings of Liberty Mengsk is 208/260 times more powerful than Omega Mengsk?

Anyway, while the progression is not linear, it's not necessarily logarithmic either. If you will allow me to venture into pure hypothetical, I imagine it would be at first - there are simply fewer resources for him to draw from as time advances. However, after a sustained peace has been established, his resources would start growing again. For instance, it is surely easier for Mengsk to obtain himself an Omega sized fleet after two years of productive peace than immediately after the devastation of his capital world, so I should expect that a few years into his recovery, things would actually be improving faster.

Yeah, I don't think Mengsk is unreasonably more powerful in WoL than he is in Omega, just too idealised.

I didn't say it was logarithmic, I said if. That if is predicated on other "ifs" as well. The Dominion's survival and growth is dependent of if Kerrigan happens to do nothing (which she conveniently does), if there are no other competitors sensing blood in the water and wanting a slice of Terran power, if Mengsk's remaining force don't abandon him, if he can form his government from scratch, if he is even in a position to make more concessions etc.

The Protoss are established there, but it isn't a military outpost.

A non-military outpost that somehow hunted down and killed a Broodmother (Nafash) before Kerrigan's arrival? Come on now, you're really stretching here.

No, no. Again, ridiculous recovery does not equal full recovery. The Protoss' absurd recovery for Omega doesn't mean they're not still weak.

This is what I'm not getting. What makes it a "ridiculous" recovery if there are caveats and limitations to such a recovery. It's either absurd or it's not.

If the absurd recovery of the Protoss means they're still weak, why is the absurd recovery of Mengsk mean that he's not weak (when he clearly was)?

Even as a Zerg fan, Brood War is the game that removed all the actual Zerg characters from the game (amazingly, Heart of the Swarm actually did something better here by introducing Abathur and Zagara) and turned the Zerg into a weapon to be used by other people rather than characters in their own right (Heart of the Swam stayed the course on this one.)

Are you blaming BW for a status quo change here? I don't mind Kerrigan taking over the Zerg and using them as personal toys/puppets because that idea was a natural consequence flowing from the loss of the Overmind and it was unique way to explore Kerrigan's character (the first time! HotS is redundant in this exact same matter). Sure, she was vapid and very unlike the Overmind but she was interesting in the sense that she was an abuse victim that's been left with nothing but her rage/feelings of impotency... but now with untold power. Sure, it was more of a Kerrigan thing than a Zerg thing, but the Zerg still came out on top at the end. I'll take what I can!

That and the notion at the back of my mind that the Overmind wasn't really dead (you can't kill that which has no body). I theorised back in the day that the Overmind structure we killed (twice) was but a node/another level of control of the Zerg, like a cerebrate that became disconnected but on a greater scale. But this is another thing I've talked about elsewhere.

Being consistent with the previous game's ending is neutral. Changing the previous game's ending for the better is good, changing the previous game for the worse is bad. Wings of Liberty doesn't gain any commendation for remaining consistent with some of the bad choices made in Brood War, but it is not responsible for Brood War's mistakes.

I mean, I say that objectively, but subjectively, I do in fact blame Wings of Liberty for not fixing those screw-ups. I just blame Brood War more :P.

Well, if they changed Sc1's ending for the worse, they were obliged to change BW's ending for the better to make up for it not make it consistent or confirm that BW really was a waste of time!

I mean I expected Raynor's Raiders and Warfield/Valerian's Dominion Fleet to be able to hold some ground on Char for a reasonable length of time, even without a deus ex machina or most of Kerrigan's fleets being absent. I'm using Duke's Alpha Squadron force from Overmind as a precedent: Duke held steady on Char for - relative to Wings of Liberty - an eternity, to the point that he was still there and foolishly willing to fight the Protoss too when the Executor shows up. And until the actual invasion of Aiur begins, Char housed the entirety of the Zerg Swarm. And Duke didn't have a magical plot device. Obviously most of this is the Zerg's power retcon, but it's still establishing that the Terran Dominion can hold ground on Char against the Swarm. And while the Terrans suffered losses since then, the Zerg have also suffered through the battle of Aiur and the Brood War, so they should theoretically be weaker too. The alternative, of course, is that Duke is a military genius that Raynor and Warfield just can't hope to match :P.

Oh okay that makes a bit more sense now. You're right that the Zerg OP retcon is largely to do with mixing up people's expectations of what is and what's not possible when confronting Zerg now.

All I can say in this matter is that 4-5 years is a long time for the Zerg as well. If the Dominion can recover having being beat down within that time, the Zerg can do just as well if not better. The Zerg have the advantage as well of being top-dog by the end of BW, not being visibly weak in an overtly intrinsic or extrinsic manner (due to the retcon), are not as prone to infighting like the other races and naturally reproduce/replenish their forces quicker than the others. We also have to consider that Kerrigan could have easily focussed all her attention on the invading force in WoL because they were the only ones gunning straight for her whereas previously in Sc1, the Overmind probably had it's attention focused on the Chrysalis or the Protoss that were attempting to kill his cerebrates rather than spend time chasing the insignificant Duke.

[Gradius]

No, as I mentioned quite clearly in other posts, it is quite clear that he purchased that fleet. If you want to claim that he still had that fleet after True Colors, I can play that game.

He purchased it on credit. Cashed in on positive balance (favors) and drove himself into the red (making concessions).

If you want to claim that he didn't have that fleet after True Colors, then obviously it's not his last reserves. It is something he has gained since True Colors, and a recovery.

It's a recovery in the same way that I can buy a new car by putting myself in debt.

Quotes or it didn't happen.

Why, so you can keep denying evidence? Because apparently cashing in on favors and giving into concessions is something that one does for something that one already owns, right?

Hey, I need to use my car to drive to work all week. It's my car, but take this giant wad of money. :P

In Brood War, Kerrigan used the entirety of the Zerg at her command, plus the Terran Dominion and Protoss Templar as allies, to invade Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan leaves most of her Leviathans behind and only gets the help of the Hyperion in the final moments of the conflict.

The UED was in control of Korhal, and they're a much tougher opponent than the Dominion. I just told you that the Dominion is much tougher in SC2 than they ever were in BW. So...your argument does not remotely address my own.

Leviathans are not that relevant. They could have been empty, but we don't know how much of the swarm was onboard.

Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

I've already handily refuted this assertion here:

Many broods went feral after the Overmind died too. Then a giant chunk of the swarm was annihilated by the xel'naga temple on Shakuras. Then Char was invaded and captured by the UED where the zerg casualties were in the millions. Then Kerrigan had to deal with the psi disruptor, which was way worse than the psi destroyer because it prevented her from controlling her minions at all (that's the only reason she needed allies). In addition, Korhal in SC1 was guarded by UED slave broods. Where were the slave broods protecting Korhal in HoTS?

But let's go through it again.

In Heart of the Swarm the UED's main force is stationed on Char meaning that not only is Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

It's actually the complete opposite:

"I lied. I liberated this planet because it was the UED's
primary staging point, not because I was under any
obligation to you. I used you to destroy the Psi Disrupter.
And now that I've got my Broods back, you're no longer
necessary for my plans. "

And notice how Mengsk and all of Kerrigan's other allies become irrelevant when the psi disruptor gets destroyed and she gets her broods back. The swarm is all one needs to sack Korhal. But in HoTS it was this massive frickin challenge that took 20 missions with "many ways to fail".

In Brood War, The UED pulled out some Zerg to help in the defence of Korhal, but not many because they had trouble controlling the Overmind. In Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk pulls out a weapon that completely annihilates all Zerg that come within its city-protecting range. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

The UED alone was enough to dominate the sector. Attacking them on their most fortified planet with backup broods, numerous or not, is NOT objectively easier. Period.

And you keep bringing up the UED when this debate is about the Dominion. I don't care about the UED. It's a brute fact that the Dominion military on Korhal was destroyed by Kerrigan in half a mission during True Colors.

In Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk pulls out a weapon that completely annihilates all Zerg that come within its city-protecting range.

Thanks for the laugh, but all that was needed to take out the psi destroyer was to step out of range and use Kerrigan's convenient primal zerg specifically designed to counter it. Easy-peasy. The Psi Destroyer was one of the most ineffectual MacGuffin's in all of StarCraft.

In Brood War, Kerrigan was infesting Terrans to use as suicide bombers against the UED. In Heart of the Swarm, Kerrigan is handicapping herself to prevent unnecessary Terran casualties. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

This debate is still not about the UED. x)

And remember Skygeirr?

"They have lots of Marines. We'll use their numbers against them".

Kerrigan has absolutely no problem infesting Dominion military. In fact, there are infested colonist doodads everywhere.

But Kerrigan says that this will be the toughest fight of their lives while talking to people who weren't present during that earlier invasion of Korhal,

Nice try, but I'm not sure you even believe that rebuttal. :P

and Mengsk spouts propaganda about overcoming the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is their heritage, so clearly she must have had it worse in Brood War.

That's a complete non-sequitur. And if he's spouting that propaganda it's because the Dominion made a miraculous recovery.

Reality is quite clear about the invasion in Heart of the Swarm being harder than the one in Brood War, all you've got in your corner are the dubious opinions of two of the most untrustworthy and unreliable characters in the series. There's your inconvenient truth.

Ishza is a completely reliable character. The inconvenient truth is that I can't come to any understanding of your position if you keep incessantly ignoring evidence.

Nope.

Yes, at least for their military. They cut through the terran and protoss homeworlds like a knife through butter. The only difference in SC1 is that their leaders could be killed.

[FanaticTemplar]

I've pored through the BW transcript and there is nothing that explicitly suggests that each of the three fleets are of equal power. There is plenty of posturing going on and there is general talk of there being three separate fleets but no clear indications that they are equal. We can only and really judge that they are equal based on what is presented in the actual mission itself. However, since you have disregarded this as evidence in Raynor's case, I would expect you do the same for Mengsk in Omega.

[...]


I'm tempted to bring out the old "absence of evidence is not..." quote. It really is an assumption on your part, especially so when we cannot trust what we see in the actual mission because it's "gameplay related". All we know for sure is that there are 3 fleets (a collective noun that has no specific numeric value) that are not aligned/communicating together and are attacking from 3 separate fronts. All we really have to go on is previous context to make judgements on relative power of each of the three fleets.

Sure. The impression conveyed by the constant reference to three fleets is that they are practically interchangeable, and in the absence of contrary evidence that's how I was accepting it. Of course, practically interchangeable is a relative descriptor, and from the perspective of the infinitely powerful Zerg, that could account for massive fluctuations of power while still remaining, from their point of view, similar. So I'll grant that it's possible that the three fleets were not of similar strength, but that doesn't necessarily aid your case, as that could as easily mean that Mengsk's fleet is stronger than the others, hypothetically. But let's not get sidetracked. As regards to your question, regardless of how powerful Mengsk's fleet was, it is indisputable that he had a fleet. And that's not something you can say of Raynor in Eye of the Storm.

I think the problem we have here is what parameters and context we are using to define "strength". People have argued that in WoL, Raynor seems absurdly strong due to his capability of pulling off so many victories with so few resources/losses and being drunk. The typical response to this is that Raynor only seems to be strong because our perspective is constrained to Raynor's POV and that in reality, his victories really don't amount to much. Whilst that may be all fine and good to say, the narrative is actually accentuating (or more encouraging of) the former opinion over the latter one.

In BW, the narrative beat of the story clearly points out the inherent weakness of the native Terran forces but also, in particular, the inherent weakness of Mengsk as a leader and the Dominion as an effective representation of that force. Literally anyone can form an army in that universe, doesn't mean they are powerful/strong. Just because they show up at a certain point and they are apparently the focus of what we're currently looking at, doesn't mean that the universe revolves around them and that they're all powerful. It is deemed acceptable to think this for Raynor but not Mengsk. Why do the blows Raynor take relegate him to the status of weak/getting weaker whilst the blows that Mengsk take relegate his status to unmoved/inconsequential or even improving?

Brood War's narrative beat is that everybody is dumber than Kerrigan. The Koprulu Terrans are not portrayed as being weaker than the Protoss, and the UED is entirely wiped out by the end. Now is Mengsk portrayed as being far more incompetent than, say Zeratul or DuGalle. The only faction that is clearly more powerful is the Zerg.

Anyway, I don't know that Raynor has been getting weaker.

Forget it being off-screen, do you think Raynor is capable of overthrowing Mengsk generally on his own and why? If Mengsk's apparent weakness didn't stop him from somehow still being able to dictate all Terran affairs, how does Raynor's apparent weakness stop him from being able to topple Mengsk?

Now you're asking a hypothetical derived from a hypothetical in answer to a vague question, which is largely why I avoided answering it the first time. You're the one who asked me how I would react if Raynor had been portrayed as much stronger in Wings of Liberty than he was by the end of Brood War, remember?

Yeah, I don't think Mengsk is unreasonably more powerful in WoL than he is in Omega, just too idealised.

Well, sure (assuming I'm understanding 'idealised' correctly). But it's not like he was a complex character in Brood War either, so that's not inconsistent (which is the point I'm arguing )

A non-military outpost that somehow hunted down and killed a Broodmother (Nafash) before Kerrigan's arrival? Come on now, you're really stretching here.

I'm pretty sure I'm not, but the Heart of the Swarm script hasn't been copied to this site, and I'm far too lazy to seek out another way to read it, so I'll forget it .

This is what I'm not getting. What makes it a "ridiculous" recovery if there are caveats and limitations to such a recovery. It's either absurd or it's not.

Imagine, for the sake of analogy, that the entire Roman Empire was completely wiped out. There's nobody alive with the blood of Rome, nobody speaks or even remembers Latin, not a stone of roman construction remains standing. Then, thirty seconds later, the Roman Empire stands again with half of the territory it held at the peak of its power completely intact. I would say that's an unbelievable recovery, even if only half the Roman Empire has been recovered, and it hasn't fully recovered. That's what I'm saying with Mengsk. Going from nothing to an endgame fleet in a week is incredible, even if it isn't the full power of the Dominion as it once was.

If the absurd recovery of the Protoss means they're still weak, why is the absurd recovery of Mengsk mean that he's not weak (when he clearly was)?

Who said Mengsk wasn't weak? What does that mean? Weakness is a relative term, and I've been careful to specify: Mengsk is weaker in Omega than he was before, say Emperor's Fall, probably also True Colors. He is stronger than he was after True Colors, hence why it's a recovery. And there's no indication that he's weaker than any of the other Koprulu Terran groups in the game. So you'll need to be more specific, when you say Mengsk can't be weak.

Are you blaming BW for a status quo change here? I don't mind Kerrigan taking over the Zerg and using them as personal toys/puppets because that idea was a natural consequence flowing from the loss of the Overmind and it was unique way to explore Kerrigan's character (the first time! HotS is redundant in this exact same matter). Sure, she was vapid and very unlike the Overmind but she was interesting in the sense that she was an abuse victim that's been left with nothing but her rage/feelings of impotency... but now with untold power. Sure, it was more of a Kerrigan thing than a Zerg thing, but the Zerg still came out on top at the end. I'll take what I can!

That and the notion at the back of my mind that the Overmind wasn't really dead (you can't kill that which has no body). I theorised back in the day that the Overmind structure we killed (twice) was but a node/another level of control of the Zerg, like a cerebrate that became disconnected but on a greater scale. But this is another thing I've talked about elsewhere.

Kerrigan taking over the Zerg isn't really the problem, not by itself at least. The problem is that her Brood War, her struggle to take over the Swarm, mostly comes in the form of conflict with the Terran United Earth Directorate, which commands the greater whole of the Zerg. If it had been a struggle with Daggoth, as it reasonably should have been, then you'd have actual Zerg conflict going on. You'd still have the problem that all the characters in the Zerg campaign are Infested Terrans, non-infested Terrans and Protoss though.

Oh okay that makes a bit more sense now. You're right that the Zerg OP retcon is largely to do with mixing up people's expectations of what is and what's not possible when confronting Zerg now.

All I can say in this matter is that 4-5 years is a long time for the Zerg as well. If the Dominion can recover having being beat down within that time, the Zerg can do just as well if not better. The Zerg have the advantage as well of being top-dog by the end of BW, not being visibly weak in an overtly intrinsic or extrinsic manner (due to the retcon), are not as prone to infighting like the other races and naturally reproduce/replenish their forces quicker than the others. We also have to consider that Kerrigan could have easily focussed all her attention on the invading force in WoL because they were the only ones gunning straight for her whereas previously in Sc1, the Overmind probably had it's attention focused on the Chrysalis or the Protoss that were attempting to kill his cerebrates rather than spend time chasing the insignificant Duke.

Sure, but you were asking about my expectations, not about whether or not what happened was plausible.

He purchased it on credit. Cashed in on positive balance (favors)

You know what else is like a positive balance? The Dominion's military budget. I've already told you that the Dominion purchases military equipment from for-profit corporations, or as you call it, "begs" for it, so the Omega fleet was, if you insist on maintaining this asinine linguistic redefinition project, no more begged for than any other Dominion fleet.

and drove himself into the red (making concessions).

I provided the definition of concessions several posts ago, and it does not mean what you claim it means. Concessions are things that are granted, especially in response to demands. It is giving something, not promising to give something that you do not have. It is an exchange of services (the concessions) for goods (the fleet), also known as how basic trade goes. Money was created as a facilitator of such exchanges, but the only difference here is that Mengsk did not employ this intermediary.

Why, so you can keep denying evidence?

Projecting much?

"With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled, Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his Terran Dominion..." ~ StarCraft: Brood War

There you have it, the omniscient narration's statement that you have spent most of this thread desperately trying to wish away.

The UED was in control of Korhal, and they're a much tougher opponent than the Dominion. I just told you that the Dominion is much tougher in SC2 than they ever were in BW. So...your argument does not remotely address my own.

You're the one who brought up a comparison between the invasions of Korhal, so yes, pointing out that she used far more forces in her invasion in Brood War is a direct response to that. Sorry that it's inconvenient to you.

Leviathans are not that relevant. They could have been empty, but we don't know how much of the swarm was onboard.

Since the point of leaving them behind was to ensure that the Swarm would survive, that's a no. Kerrigan says there are Brood Mothers on them to do so.

I've already handily refuted this assertion here:

Nope, I was talking about the forces she used for the invasion, you're claiming that the Zerg suffered losses before the invasion, from unrelated sources. In this case, the proper comparison would be to those countless Zerg who were lost when Kerrigan was deinfested. You will note that I did not bring it up, for precisely this reason. But nice attempt at misdirection.

It's actually the complete opposite:

"I lied. I liberated this planet because it was the UED's
primary staging point, not because I was under any
obligation to you. I used you to destroy the Psi Disrupter.
And now that I've got my Broods back, you're no longer
necessary for my plans. "

And notice how Mengsk and all of Kerrigan's other allies become irrelevant when the psi disruptor gets destroyed and she gets her broods back. The swarm is all one needs to sack Korhal. But in HoTS it was this massive frickin challenge that took 20 missions with "many ways to fail".

Funny, because even with those "irrelevant" allies, she says that the invasion of Korhal won't be easy.

Also, staging area. Not the position of the actual UED fleet, which is what I was talking about. But even if you were to be correct, then the UED still kept a massive force at Char, so again, objectively easier for Kerrigan.

The UED alone was enough to dominate the sector. Attacking them on their most fortified planet with backup broods, numerous or not, is NOT objectively easier. Period.

No? The 'UED alone' succeeded in overthrowing Mengsk (temporarily!) and enslaving the Overmind through the use of a magical plot device which had already been destroyed by the time Kerrigan invaded Korhal in Brood War.

And you keep bringing up the UED when this debate is about the Dominion. I don't care about the UED. It's a brute fact that the Dominion military on Korhal was destroyed by Kerrigan in half a mission during True Colors.

I'm sorry, your position is that stabbing unsuspecting allies in the back while they sleep, without even having had the time to establish a secure position on the planet is "far worse" than invading the capitol planet of an intergalactic empire that has rallied all its resources for the sole purpose of stopping you? Really? If you're comparing the invasion in Heart of the Swarm with True Colors, then Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War by an unbelievably massive margin!

Thanks for the laugh, but all that was needed to take out the psi destroyer was to step out of range and use Kerrigan's convenient primal zerg specifically designed to counter it. Easy-peasy. The Psi Destroyer was one of the most ineffectual MacGuffin's in all of StarCraft.

Good, even you admit that Kerrigan's appraisal of the situation is inconsequential.

Either way, a weapon that annihilates all Zerg within its field is better than no weapon that annihilates all Zerg within its field, and it took Kerrigan an entire third of the invasion just to deal with it. So there's that whole 'denying evidence' thing again.

And remember Skygeirr?

"They have lots of Marines. We'll use their numbers against them".

Kerrigan has absolutely no problem infesting Dominion military. In fact, there are infested colonist doodads everywhere.

Yes... the military. Again with the dodge attempt.

Nice try, but I'm not sure you even believe that rebuttal. :P

Believe what? If I have to choose between the facts and the opinion of Kerrigan, it's an easy choice.

That's a complete non-sequitur. And if he's spouting that propaganda it's because the Dominion made a miraculous recovery.

You're the one who tried to use Mengsk exhorting his troops as though it were an accurate description of reality. Though that comparison with Aldaris is unfair - I suspect Aldaris actually believe what he was saying.

Ishza is a completely reliable character. The inconvenient truth is that I can't come to any understanding of your position if you keep incessantly ignoring evidence.

Projecting again.

Yes, at least for their military. They cut through the terran and protoss homeworlds like a knife through butter. The only difference in SC1 is that their leaders could be killed.

Nope.

[Gradius]

You know what else is like a positive balance? The Dominion's military budget. I've already told you that the Dominion purchases military equipment from for-profit corporations, or as you call it, "begs" for it, so the Omega fleet was, if you insist on maintaining this asinine linguistic redefinition project, no more begged for than any other Dominion fleet.

Please provide evidence that Mengsk had to cash in on favors and make concessions to order his fleet around at any other point in the game. x)

I provided the definition of concessions several posts ago, and it does not mean what you claim it means. Concessions are things that are granted, especially in response to demands. It is giving something, not promising to give something that you do not have.

Straight up wrong & wrong. You can definitely make concessions for things in the future. i.e. "help me out here, and I will charge you less for x service in the future".

In fact, that's how most concessions work. i.e. tax concessions

It is an exchange of services (the concessions) for goods (the fleet), also known as how basic trade goes. Money was created as a facilitator of such exchanges, but the only difference here is that Mengsk did not employ this intermediary.

Now you just have to explain why Mengsk has to do this during Omega and not at any other point during his reign.

Projecting much?

"With his rag-tag fleet beaten and crippled, Arcturus Mengsk fled back to Korhal to lick his wounds and plan the reconstruction of his Terran Dominion..." ~ StarCraft: Brood War

There you have it, the omniscient narration's statement that you have spent most of this thread desperately trying to wish away.

In no way is that quote inconsistent with my position. I'm perfectly fine with Mengsk planning to reconstruct the Terran Dominion at the end of BW. I'm not fine with the multiple military defeats that he suffered having zero effect on the status quo during WoL.

You're the one who brought up a comparison between the invasions of Korhal, so yes, pointing out that she used far more forces in her invasion in Brood War is a direct response to that. Sorry that it's inconvenient to you.

It's not inconvenient at all. Not only did Kerrigan retake Korhal from the UED in two missions, but she also wasted the Dominion as an aside during True Colors, showing just how weak the Dominion really is in BW. That's why making them the final boss for HoTS is such a joke.

The fact that you bring up the UED (a force so powerful that it enslaved the entire sector) as proof that the Dominion was more powerful during BW is.. a nonsequitur.

Since the point of leaving them behind was to ensure that the Swarm would survive, that's a no. Kerrigan says there are Brood Mothers on them to do so.

True, but there don't have to be many zerg onboard. That would be a waste of energy, and you only need a few zerg to plant the seeds for infesting an entire planet.

Nope, I was talking about the forces she used for the invasion, you're claiming that the Zerg suffered losses before the invasion, from unrelated sources. In this case, the proper comparison would be to those countless Zerg who were lost when Kerrigan was deinfested. You will note that I did not bring it up, for precisely this reason. But nice attempt at misdirection.

Uhm, you did originally bring up that the broods went feral when she was deinfested, and now you're claiming that she had it way easier in BW, when in reality she had more roadblocks than in HoTS. All we can do is count those roadblocks since we have no way of quantifying their numbers anyway. And again, you're talking about the UED, not the Dominion, and accuse me of misdirection. -_-

The UED was a much tougher opponent. Please understand that. The physical location of their primary staging point is irrelevant. They could have picked Braxis, or Char, as their primary staging point instead of Korhal. You don't get to use that as evidence that the Dominion was stronger.

Funny, because even with those "irrelevant" allies, she says that the invasion of Korhal won't be easy.

Right, because it's occupied by the UED. When the Dominion occupied the planet in BW, Kerrigan steamrolled them in half a mission.

Also, staging area. Not the position of the actual UED fleet, which is what I was talking about. But even if you were to be correct, then the UED still kept a massive force at Char, so again, objectively easier for Kerrigan.

What? You invent your own evidence that doesn't actually exist in the game, and you think your argument is objective?

No? The 'UED alone' succeeded in overthrowing Mengsk (temporarily!) and enslaving the Overmind through the use of a magical plot device which had already been destroyed by the time Kerrigan invaded Korhal in Brood War.

Your point?

I'm sorry, your position is that stabbing unsuspecting allies in the back while they sleep, without even having had the time to establish a secure position on the planet is "far worse" than invading the capitol planet of an intergalactic empire that has rallied all its resources for the sole purpose of stopping you? Really?

No, but it goes to show that your argument of "the Dominion was super strong in BW" is ultimately bunk. There's just no evidence. Neither the UED or Dominion defeats at Korhal were half as much of a challenge as it was in HoTS. An entire campaign of build-up just to get to Korhal, blockading all of Korhal with Leviathans to make sure the invasion isn't interrupted by the Dominion fleets, losing millions of drop-pods in the opening moments and hoping that a mere fraction get through, having to contend with the Dominion's military tactics, destroying a giant expensive floating platform over the city, breaking into the imperial palace, etc.

Remind me what we did for the UED again? Go on a resource raid and sack their planet in one mission? Wow, that was hard. -_-

If you're comparing the invasion in Heart of the Swarm with True Colors, then Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War by an unbelievably massive margin!

You keep saying that, but I'd consider rephrasing it since it sounds like you're agreeing with me that wiping out the Dominion was very easy for the zerg in BW.

Good, even you admit that Kerrigan's appraisal of the situation is inconsequential.

No. The aforementioned quote is before the psi destroyer is turned on. And I believe everything Kerrigan says in both games. It's Mengsk's empty bluster that can be argued as being unreliable. But you're the one asserting that Kerrigan is an unreliable judge without any proof. Just seems like another way for you to deny evidence.

Either way, a weapon that annihilates all Zerg within its field is better than no weapon that annihilates all Zerg within its field, and it took Kerrigan an entire third of the invasion just to deal with it. So there's that whole 'denying evidence' thing again.

"Was that your last card Mengsk? It wasn't good enough."

Neither me nor Kerrigan are impressed with the Destroyer. But it is impressive that he was able to build it, on a floating platform over the city of all places. Almost as if the Dominion made a miraculous recovery and has too much money. :P

Yes... the military. Again with the dodge attempt.

Prove that she was infesting colonists in BW. I'm just pointing out the fact that infested terrans are used in both invasions, whereas you're trying to spin it as proof of your position again. Not saying you're wrong, just that you're trying to fabricate evidence where none exists.

Believe what? If I have to choose between the facts and the opinion of Kerrigan, it's an easy choice.

Did you really try to imply that BW didn't count because Zagara or whoever else wasn't there? Not only is that a completely baseless assumption, but it's also wrong. Her exact words were: "Korhal is going to be the most difficult battle of my life and you're asking me to make it harder?"

Or what about Izsha? "There were so many ways to fail. I did not think we would make it to the surface. But we did."

Gee, having a hard time recalling the BW dialog where Raynor, Kerrigan and Fenix say "man, I hope we even make it to the surface". >_>

When you can't quantify the exact numbers of the swarm in BW vs HoTS, you have to fall back on in-universe perspectives. So again, why do you keep ignoring all the evidence that says you're wrong?

You're the one who tried to use Mengsk exhorting his troops as though it were an accurate description of reality. Though that comparison with Aldaris is unfair - I suspect Aldaris actually believe what he was saying.

Still a non-sequitur. You said:

"Mengsk spouts propaganda about overcoming the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is their heritage, so clearly she must have had it worse in Brood War."

Mengsk believing that the Dominion can overcome the swarm in HoTS would mean it's hard for Kerrigan during HoTS, not BW. Unless I missed some sarcasm here.

Nope.

Yep.

[FanaticTemplar]

Please provide evidence that Mengsk had to cash in on favors and make concessions to order his fleet around at any other point in the game. x)

Why? What you want is evidence that:

He purchased it on credit. Cashed in on positive balance (favors) and drove himself into the red (making concessions).

That's what you're pretending differentiates the Omega fleet from any other Dominion fleet. And I've already pointed out that the Dominion is supplied by for-profit corporations. Obviously, to make a profit those corporations need to be paid either through the Dominion's available funds (positive balance) or unavailable funds (driving himself into the red). The evidence is pretty clear.

Straight up wrong & wrong. You can

Two words in and you've already failed. If you're going to claim that I'm wrong, those words need to be "you must". The words must by definition or implication require the incurring of debt. You can trade many things for future benefits. If you want to say that "making concessions" means indebtedness, you need to provide a source for that, because I've already cited a dictionary to you and you just don't seem to care what the word actually means.

Now you just have to explain why Mengsk has to do this during Omega and not at any other point during his reign.

Can you demonstrate that Mengsk has never had to make concessions before? You're the one claiming that this situation is exceptional, you must demonstrate it.

True, but there don't have to be many zerg onboard. That would be a waste of energy, and you only need a few zerg to plant the seeds for infesting an entire planet.

Then there's no need to leave so many Leviathans. You're desperate.

Uhm, you did originally bring up that the broods went feral when she was deinfested

At some point in this seventeen page thread, I'm sure I did, likely when I was telling Turalyon about all the shit the Zerg had to go through so the authours could even justify the Dominion surviving three missions, but I assuredly did not in the obvious points I gave you, because there is no way to tell how bad the losses were compared to those sustained before the invasion in Brood War. I only brought up objective facts. Read for yourself:

In Brood War, Kerrigan used the entirety of the Zerg at her command, plus the Terran Dominion and Protoss Templar as allies, to invade Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm Kerrigan leaves most of her Leviathans behind and only gets the help of the Hyperion in the final moments of the conflict. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.
In Brood War, Mengsk has pulled back all his available assets to help in the defence of Korhal. In Heart of the Swarm the UED's main force is stationed on Char meaning that not only is Korhal not their sole priority, it's not even their first priority. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.
In Brood War, The UED pulled out some Zerg to help in the defence of Korhal, but not many because they had trouble controlling the Overmind. In Heart of the Swarm, Mengsk pulls out a weapon that completely annihilates all Zerg that come within its city-protecting range. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.
In Brood War, Kerrigan was infesting Terrans to use as suicide bombers against the UED. In Heart of the Swarm, Kerrigan is handicapping herself to prevent unnecessary Terran casualties. Kerrigan had it objectively better in Brood War.

Please highlight in red the part where I mention the Broods she lost during her deinfestation

What? You invent your own evidence that doesn't actually exist in the game, and you think your argument is objective?

Providing the definition of 'staging area' is "inventing your own evidence"?

Your point?

You were wrong.

No

So when you said:

Kerrigan had it worse in BW and managed to steamroll Korhal with ease.

You weren't talking about the actual invasion of Korhal since you claim bringing up the UED is a non-sequitur, and you weren't talking about True Colors, since you admit that stabbing a surprised ally in the back while they're resting is not "far worse" than invading the most powerful stronghold in Terran space that has bent all its resources toward stopping you, so please, tell me about this invasion of Korhal against the Dominion in Brood War where Kerrigan had it "far worse".

but it goes to show that your argument of "the Dominion was super strong in BW" is ultimately bunk. There's just no evidence. Neither the UED or Dominion defeats at Korhal were half as much of a challenge as it was in HoTS. An entire campaign of build-up just to get to Korhal, blockading all of Korhal with Leviathans to make sure the invasion isn't interrupted by the Dominion fleets, losing millions of drop-pods in the opening moments and hoping that a mere fraction get through, having to contend with the Dominion's military tactics, destroying a giant expensive floating platform over the city, breaking into the imperial palace, etc.

Remind me what we did for the UED again? Go on a resource raid and sack their planet in one mission? Wow, that was hard. -_-

Let's see, the actual invasion of Korhal took only one mission in Brood War, in Heart of the Swarm it took three, but one was a self-imposed handicap and therefore says nothing about the strength of the Dominion. Relatively speaking, we're already even since we're comparing 1/10th of a campaign to 2/20ths of a campaign, but that's not counting the magical plot device Mengsk pulled out of his arse and required an entire mission to deal with, so Kerrigan had it far worse in Heart of the Swarm, yet still overran Korhal in a similar length of time, so clearly the invasion was harder in Brood War than it was in Heart of the Swarm.

But wait, let's count all the tangentially related missions too!

From Brood War we have Reign of Fire, The Kel-Morian Combine, The Liberation of Korhal and True Colors, that's 4/10ths of a campaign. In Heart of the Swarm, we have the Char missions and the Korhal missions, that's 6/20ths, or actually less than in Brood War? Umoja was about setting up the narrative of the campaign (with defeating Mengsk becoming Kerrigan's objective at the end of the arc), Kaldir was about the Protoss, Zerus was about the Zerg, Skygeirr was about the Hybrids and Space was about Raynor. You may want to exclude Reign of Fire from Brood War's count, for whatever reason, but that would still leave them equal.

You keep saying that, but I'd consider rephrasing it since it sounds like you're agreeing with me that wiping out the Dominion was very easy for the zerg in BW.

Of course it was. Everything is easy for the Zerg since the Brood War retcon of their strength. I'm just wondering if you really want to keep arguing about how Kerrigan didn't just get to stab Mengsk in the back while he was sleeping in Heart of the Swarm and that means the Terrans are somehow overpowered ?!?

No. The aforementioned quote is before the psi destroyer is turned on. And I believe everything Kerrigan says in both games.

I don't need to limit myself to the Kerrigan quotes you provide. This is what she says about the Psi Destroyer: "Let's see what your Psi Destroyer can do, Mengsk. The Swarm is going to be torn apart. We need to shut down this field."

So you apparently believe that the Psi Destroyer will tear apart the Swarm, and this is laughable as a defence?

It's Mengsk's empty bluster that can be argued as being unreliable.

And yet you're the one who invoked it.

But you're the one asserting that Kerrigan is an unreliable judge without any proof. Just seems like another way for you to deny evidence.

...

Are you really asking me to provide evidence that Kerrigan is not trustworthy?

Oh wow, this is going to be tough. She's such a bastion of honesty and accuracy! I mean, who wouldn't believe everything she says in... either game, you said, right?

Oh wait, by some amazing miracle, I've managed to find a quote!

"I lied."

Well, I'm sure I just got lucky.

Prove that she was infesting colonists in BW. I'm just pointing out the fact that infested terrans are used in both invasions, whereas you're trying to spin it as proof of your position again. Not saying you're wrong, just that you're trying to fabricate evidence where none exists.

The Kel-Morian Combine. Are you asserting that those Command Centers were Dominion military (or UED military, given the circumstances)?

Did you really try to imply that BW didn't count because Zagara or whoever else wasn't there? Not only is that a completely baseless assumption, but it's also wrong. Her exact words were: "Korhal is going to be the most difficult battle of my life and you're asking me to make it harder?"

So you provided me with an inaccurate quote?

Kerrigan: "Toughest fight of our lives."

Anyway, yes, I was trying to imply that the fact that those characters weren't present for the Korhal invasion kinda made that statement irrelevant. If we're using your newly updated quote, obviously that doesn't apply. Now that we've cleared up this little detail, care to return to the main point about how Kerrigan was saddled with a tonne of handicaps during Heart of the Swarm, still completely rolled over the Dominion, and you still want to pretend that this is somehow unfair because I should believe Kerrigan and Mengsk?

Or what about Izsha? "[COLOR=#EEEEEE]There were so many ways to fail. I did not think we would make it to the surface. But we did."

Gee, having a hard time recalling the BW dialog where Raynor, Kerrigan and Fenix say "man, I hope we even make it to the surface". >_>

Yeah, the volume of text in StarCraft II is not even comparable to that of Brood War, they didn't have time for these cozy conversations. Again, I provide facts, you provide opinions.

Still a non-sequitur. You said:

"Mengsk spouts propaganda about overcoming the entire Swarm with the might and the fury that is their heritage, so clearly she must have had it worse in Brood War."

Mengsk believing that the Dominion can overcome the swarm in HoTS would mean it's hard for Kerrigan during HoTS, not BW. Unless I missed some sarcasm here.

I notice that you equate Mengsk saying something with Mengsk believing something, and then that with it being evidence of its accuracy. I'm going to give you the chance to backpedal sooner rather than later.

[Telenil]

Yeah, the volume of text in StarCraft II is not even comparable to that of Brood War, they didn't have time for these cozy conversations. Again, I provide facts, you provide opinions.

What? That Brood War characters did not mention a perillous landing is a fact. That there were more dialogs in SC2 is also a fact. The idea that the first fact comes from the second is an opinion, certainly not a fact.

I could quote the BW briefing to show that the characters were somewhat confident about their odds, but I'm not sure it would do any good.

Can you demonstrate that Mengsk has never had to make concessions before? You're the one claiming that this situation is exceptional, you must demonstrate it.

Let's be honest: if you were given evidence, would you concede the point? I'm thinking no. You would find some different interpretation, or take a word literally, or accuse us of taking a word too literally, and then you would go back to saying you were given no evidence.

You weren't talking about the actual invasion of Korhal since you claim bringing up the UED is a non-sequitur, and you weren't talking about True Colors, since you admit that stabbing a surprised ally in the back while they're resting is not "far worse" than invading the most powerful stronghold in Terran space that has bent all its resources toward stopping you, so please, tell me about this invasion of Korhal against the Dominion in Brood War where Kerrigan had it "far worse".

Gradius' point is that 1) the Brood War invasion of Korhal was against a force that was stronger than the Dominion, but 2) HotS Kerrigan claims the HotS invasion of Korhal will be harder (note she calls Korhal "the most difficult battle of her life" before she agrees to spare civilians).

As far as I can see, your reply is arguing that the HotS Dominion on Korhal was weak and that the UED on Korhal was weak too. An odd angle, in my opinion. Although the number of ifs and hypotheticals make this discussion very difficult to follow, it almost feels you are simultaneously arguing that the Zerg were strong and that they were weak: strong, because it means the battle was easier for them, and weak, because it means their enemies were weaker.

Come to think of it, I can't tell what you are trying to prove anymore. Aside from refuting whatever argument you're given, what exactly is your overarching point? That Starcraft 2 isn't any worse than Brood War?