Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[LestersPetZergling]

No. Far from it. But what I am cannot be placed under any ideology. That's why I'm better than most others.

Why would you think I was a Keynesian? Was that a jab?

I admit, you have that sort of Krugman aura about you.

- - - Updated - - -

No. Far from it. But what I am cannot be placed under any ideology. That's why I'm better than most others.

Why would you think I was a Keynesian? Was that a jab?

I admit, you have that sort of Krugman aura about you.

[TheEconomist]

Then you have never read a single post from me, ever.

Either way, like I said, not getting involved. Almost typed something but I stopped myself. Thank God.

[FanaticTemplar]

The only double standard is that you refuse to apply that logic to the Kel-Morian Combine, Umoja, or virtually anybody else.

Not in any way a double standard. I am refusing to make assumptions about factions that barely or do not appear in the game. You, on the other hand, consider one (or more) new Battlecruiser in a single week evidence or not evidence, entirely dependant on whether it suits your desired conclusion.

Again I ask, why should I believe your plothole-inducing inconsistent version of events when we can all accept the perfectly reasonable explanation?

Ah, so you finally accept that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is perfectly consistent?

And that's fine, but whereas before the Dominion had its own military with armaments purchased from aforementioned corporations, now it has to grant political concessions and cash in on favors to get armaments because their entire military just got trashed, and presumably they can't afford to pay for more...

Right, so he has to give something in exchange for obtaining something, which is entirely consistent. The entire (or a cripplingly significant portion of it, anyway) Dominion military did get trashed, hence why a recovery was needed. That he can't afford to pay for more is unsubstantiated.

Simple question: why doesn't Mengsk just pay for (or simply demand) the armaments he needs instead of having to cash in on favors or make concessions? The moment you find the answer is the moment you'll realize that I'm correct.

Because he's going to need a lot of money to rebuild the Dominion, and so requires this new fleet both as cheaply as possible, and as urgently as possible.

Amazingly, I have the answer and you are still incorrect.

I mean even then it's pretty obvious that Mengsk is underplaying his defeat. "Oh I had to do a little bit of this, a little bit of that". What do you expect him to say? "This is my last ditch effort to get you Kerrigan!"

Funny, because for a "last ditch effort" that is "the final nail in his coffin" he sounds entirely unconcerned about his defeat in Omega. He did sound very concerned when the UED was in control of Korhal and the Dominion earlier in the campaign, or when Kerrigan betrayed him in True Colors, but now that he's back in command of his Dominion, he's fine. I mean, in my explanation at least. Makes no sense with yours.

For me, nope. I'm not pretending Omega didn't exist nor do I have to. I'm just saying that what looks like a history of absurd comebacks (of which, Omega is really the only one) is not necessarily so and therefore that is not enough to claim that Mengsk/the Dominion was always invincible or has an infinite well of resources.

Invincible? The Zerg wreck the Dominion consistently across all games.

Given the context of multiple defeats that have gutted his Dominion, the comeback in Omega can be interpreted as a last gasp. That comeback is only evidence that he got a fleet at that one specific time and nothing else, not that that he can keep repeating the feat nor that the political structure of the Dominion is reconstituted. One could just as easily say he probably pawned off what remained of the ashes of his Dominion to get the necessary funds to get the fleet, bankrupting himself in the process. We don't know and Mengsk is certainly not going to say that if that's indeed what he had to do.

As I told Gradius, compare Mengsk's dialogue in Omega to his dialogue when he is actually not Emperor of the Dominion, and you'll find the difference stunning.

In regards to the absurdity of being able to talk to someone to get a fleet, one has to consider that Mengsk essentially did that already with a fleet called the Alpha Squadron by just talking to Duke and Mengsk didn't even have to bribe him, ask favours or make concessions for that!

Oh, didn't he? Did he not offer Edmund Duke a position within his cabinet? How is that not a bribe or a concession? Guess Alpha Squadron never "really" counted as part of the Dominion forces.

Stating things that happen in a later iteration to justify an assumption (which sounds eerily like the justification for the Overmind retcon, not that I'm saying that this is a retcon just that the reasoning is flawed/circular) or that BW was obviously created to make a sequel do not support the fact that the Dominion/Mengsk were always going to be in the sequel.

This reasoning is absurd, For example, I will claim that Tassadar's appearance in Overmind and The Fall is inconsistent with the events of Rebel Yell, because Tassadar clearly died during the events of New Gettysburg. You cannot use events from later campaigns to justify your assumption that he survived, and the fact that it was obviously only the first of three campaigns does not support the fact that Tassadar was always going to be in those campaigns.

The five years passed is not acceptable either since anything can happen up to an and including Mengsk and the Dominion still ruling but also equally the possibility of Mengsk dying or the Dominion not being around.

How is it not acceptable? Five years of peace is a much better reason for recovery than "talked to some people".

Much in the same way the Jormungand Brood belongs to the PC cerebrate?

For the record I am perfectly fine with the notion that the PC Cerebrate is Araq. But let's pretend I'm not, when was the PC Cerebrate ever linked within the narrative to the Jormungand Brood?

[Turalyon]

Invincible? The Zerg wreck the Dominion consistently across all games.

... but not somehow completely destroy or put down for good, hence, invincible. Being "wrecked" is really inconsequential since they can "comeback absurdly".

With this in mind, I don't see why you'd think the Zerg are really overpowered in BW either now because none of their victories have any real/lasting consequence since their enemies defeats have no real/lasting consequence because they still keep popping up later anyway.

As I told Gradius, compare Mengsk's dialogue in Omega to his dialogue when he is actually not Emperor of the Dominion, and you'll find the difference stunning.

The circumstances are different. Mengsk is fearful when he is deposed because Kerrigan had the proverbial "boot on this throat" and could snuff him out at any moment. He's on the defensive the whole time there up until it's revealed she does not intend to kill him but to toy with him. When he obtains a fleet and attempts to be the aggressor, he gains a measure of bravado about him because he's under the impression that Kerrigan won't really kill him and that he can still retreat, hence the defiance and parting shot he takes at Kerrigan when leaving.

Besides, if we're to judge someones actual capability based on the confidence in which they carry themselves, one only has to look at Raynor making his confident threats against killing Kerrigan. That's the last time we hear from him as well. Am I to take that as him having enough power in the next installment to actually make that threat possible? Some people thought this, much like you do with Mengsk, but the dismisal of that is because we're somehow supposed to know that he's weak and can't do it. We know that Mengsk is actually weak because of his incompetent leadership skills even despite having a sizeable army to command each time, yet somehow are supposed to know he's not weak and can keep on going all because he speaks confidently at the end? The raising of an army is by no means a singular measure of one's power since Raynor and the Protoss can do this at the drop of a hat and on a whim too but they're still considered weak forever more. It seems that just like Mengsk remains strong just because, Raynor remains weak just because as well.

Oh, didn't he? Did he not offer Edmund Duke a position within his cabinet? How is that not a bribe or a concession? Guess Alpha Squadron never "really" counted as part of the Dominion forces.

At that point in time, Mengsk didn't have any real power yet. It's not much of a bribe when Duke's already a general for the largest Terran group around only to be downgraded to a special person in a small pirate militia working for a person with delusions of grandeur. He's only doing it out of a perceived threat of being abandoned and killed if he didn't accept, which was successfully brought about by Mengsk's Charisma stat of 10. The Dominion was only made possible and founded with the help of Duke's Alpha Squadron. As to being Sons of Korhal forces however, well, Duke still referred to his army as Alpha Squadron right up until the Dominion was formed, so....

This reasoning is absurd, For example, I will claim that Tassadar's appearance in Overmind and The Fall is inconsistent with the events of Rebel Yell, because Tassadar clearly died during the events of New Gettysburg. You cannot use events from later campaigns to justify your assumption that he survived, and the fact that it was obviously only the first of three campaigns does not support the fact that Tassadar was always going to be in those campaigns.

It's only absurd in hindsight but it's reasonable to say so at the time it happens. Your example is poor because it's difficult to say that Tassadar categorically died since there is no in-game unit during the mission nor does he speak in the actual mission, so there's the possible case that he wasn't there to be killed. On the other hand, Kerrigan in that mission can be reasoned to have not survived that mission such that we can't say her eventual induction to the Swarm justifies that she was alawys going to live at New Gettysberg.

How is it not acceptable? Five years of peace is a much better reason for recovery than "talked to some people".

Because it is arbitrary and because it's just another way of pressing a reset button.

For the record I am perfectly fine with the notion that the PC Cerebrate is Araq. But let's pretend I'm not, when was the PC Cerebrate ever linked within the narrative to the Jormungand Brood?

Fair enough, we can only assume the brood he controls is Jormungand because purple is the designated colour of that brood. But then if we say we can't go by the colour to judge what the Brood is, how do we know the PC cerebate is Araq then especially when Terrans know of the existence of this brood (given it's Earth-mythology based name) before the PC cerebrate, which is supposedly Araq, was even created? Therefore, it must be that the PC cerebrate is not Araq. He can control purple Zerg (he can control red Zerg, too, which ultimately belong to Daggoth as part of the Tiamat brood), which have generally been identified as Jormungand, but do they belong to him?

[Gradius]

I am refusing to make assumptions about factions that barely or do not appear in the game.

Aka. ignoring evidence. There's enough about the KMC that you can't just ignore them.

All we get in WoL is ticker text on the news that says "Kel Morian Combine worthless".

You, on the other hand, consider one (or more) new Battlecruiser in a single week evidence or not evidence, entirely dependant on whether it suits your desired conclusion.

It's still not the same thing.

"The fleet is Mengsk's in the same way that my new house that I can't afford and had to get a loan for is mine. "

Why is it so amazing that he further indebted himself after he got bankrupt? He doesn't have to concede to anybody for the battlecruisers that he gets in WoL. He somehow magically put himself in a position where he's no longer bankrupt, extending his influence over other factions, and can churn out armaments with impunity, where the only bone we get to justify this is "it's been 4 years".

Because he's going to need a lot of money to rebuild the Dominion, and so requires this new fleet both as cheaply as possible, and as urgently as possible.

Amazingly, I have the answer and you are still incorrect.

How? You've admitted that he needs lots of money to rebuild the Dominion. Money that he doesn't have. This is perfectly consistent with the Dominion being in ashes. What is the problem again?

That he can't afford to pay for more is unsubstantiated.

I feel like we're making no progress here. Did you not just tell me you had the answer to this question: "Simple question: why doesn't Mengsk just pay for (or simply demand) the armaments he needs instead of having to cash in on favors or make concessions?"

Funny, because for a "last ditch effort" that is "the final nail in his coffin" he sounds entirely unconcerned about his defeat in Omega. He did sound very concerned when the UED was in control of Korhal and the Dominion earlier in the campaign, or when Kerrigan betrayed him in True Colors, but now that he's back in command of his Dominion, he's fine. I mean, in my explanation at least. Makes no sense with yours.

Fair enough. But it should be known that Arcturus is known for his empty bluster. aka. "But you must know that your victory here means little to me."

He was concerned about the UED because they controlled all his colonies (not relevant in Omega), and the concern in true colors was surprise that Kerrigan actually betrayed him (one of the reasons people call him an idiot in BW).

[ragnarok]

I feel like we're making no progress here. Did you not just tell me you had the answer to this question: "Simple question: why doesn't Mengsk just pay for (or simply demand) the armaments he needs instead of having to cash in on favors or make concessions?"

Because he knew by the time he got Korhal back, the Dominion military was too weak. He wasn't in the position to demand anything. He had to use diplomacy to the KMC and UP to get them to see they all had to work together to beat the Zerg.

Fair enough. But it should be known that Arcturus is known for his empty bluster. aka. "But you must know that your victory here means little to me."

He was concerned about the UED because they controlled all his colonies (not relevant in Omega), and the concern in true colors was surprise that Kerrigan actually betrayed him (one of the reasons people call him an idiot in BW).

In some ways, he was trying to send a similar message to Kerrigan like she did in True Colors: back then, she told him that his foolish actions by leaving her on Tarsonis had turned her loose, and now it's come back to bite him.

So Mengsk's message was that she'll regret letting him walk away, as it'll come back to bite her as well.

Ironically, that's no different than what Zeratul said after Kerrigan allowed him to leave Char due to Raszagal's death. The only difference is that the prophecy meddling meant it didn't come back to bite her, not in that sense.

[FanaticTemplar]

... but not somehow completely destroy or put down for good, hence, invincible. Being "wrecked" is really inconsequential since they can "comeback absurdly".

That seems excessively simplistic as an outlook. If someone is not completely destroyed or put down for good, they are invincible? I don't acknowledge such extreme dichotomies.

Besides, Mengsk was completely destroyed and put down for good in Heart of the Swarm, so by your reasoning StarCraft II Mengsk is less invincible than Brood War Mengsk.

With this in mind, I don't see why you'd think the Zerg are really overpowered in BW either now because none of their victories have any real/lasting consequence since their enemies defeats have no real/lasting consequence because they still keep popping up later anyway.

None of their victories have real/lasting consequences? I was under the impression that Aiur was still abandoned and devastated, despite no Zerg leader actually caring about it at all at this point. I was under the impression that the UED fleet had been entirely annihilated and didn't show up at all in StarCraft II.

The circumstances are different. Mengsk is fearful when he is deposed because Kerrigan had the proverbial "boot on this throat" and could snuff him out at any moment. He's on the defensive the whole time there up until it's revealed she does not intend to kill him but to toy with him. When he obtains a fleet and attempts to be the aggressor, he gains a measure of bravado about him because he's under the impression that Kerrigan won't really kill him and that he can still retreat, hence the defiance and parting shot he takes at Kerrigan when leaving.

Besides, if we're to judge someones actual capability based on the confidence in which they carry themselves, one only has to look at Raynor making his confident threats against killing Kerrigan. That's the last time we hear from him as well. Am I to take that as him having enough power in the next installment to actually make that threat possible? Some people thought this, much like you do with Mengsk, but the dismisal of that is because we're somehow supposed to know that he's weak and can't do it. We know that Mengsk is actually weak because of his incompetent leadership skills even despite having a sizeable army to command each time, yet somehow are supposed to know he's not weak and can keep on going all because he speaks confidently at the end? The raising of an army is by no means a singular measure of one's power since Raynor and the Protoss can do this at the drop of a hat and on a whim too but they're still considered weak forever more. It seems that just like Mengsk remains strong just because, Raynor remains weak just because as well.

It's not about Mengsk's behaviour demonstrating that he's still in great shape, it's about how nothing about Omega suggests that Mengsk has taken irrecoverable damage.

At that point in time, Mengsk didn't have any real power yet. It's not much of a bribe when Duke's already a general for the largest Terran group around only to be downgraded to a special person in a small pirate militia working for a person with delusions of grandeur. He's only doing it out of a perceived threat of being abandoned and killed if he didn't accept, which was successfully brought about by Mengsk's Charisma stat of 10. The Dominion was only made possible and founded with the help of Duke's Alpha Squadron. As to being Sons of Korhal forces however, well, Duke still referred to his army as Alpha Squadron right up until the Dominion was formed, so....

So you acknowledge that Mengsk has real power by Omega?

It's only absurd in hindsight but it's reasonable to say so at the time it happens. Your example is poor because it's difficult to say that Tassadar categorically died since there is no in-game unit during the mission nor does he speak in the actual mission, so there's the possible case that he wasn't there to be killed. On the other hand, Kerrigan in that mission can be reasoned to have not survived that mission such that we can't say her eventual induction to the Swarm justifies that she was alawys going to live at New Gettysberg.

It's very difficult to categorically say that Mengsk was in an irrecoverable position after Omega given that the omniscient narrator explicitly says that Mengsk is planning to rebuild his Dominion. Incidentally, [StarCraft II is out. Your assumptions might have been reasonable after Brood War, even if I don't see why you'd make them, but it's already hindsight. It's absurd now.

Because it is arbitrary and because it's just another way of pressing a reset button.

It's not arbitrary, there are a tonne of reasons to keep Mengsk in power. He's an established character, he has a personal relationship with other important characters of the setting, it establishes the mood of the Dominion immediately, it creates story opportunities, etc. Having the Terrans be too weak to be playable would have been ridiculous. Having them stay stagnant despite the passage of five years would have been ridiculous and unrealistic.

Fair enough, we can only assume the brood he controls is Jormungand because purple is the designated colour of that brood. But then if we say we can't go by the colour to judge what the Brood is, how do we know the PC cerebate is Araq then especially when Terrans know of the existence of this brood (given it's Earth-mythology based name) before the PC cerebrate, which is supposedly Araq, was even created? Therefore, it must be that the PC cerebrate is not Araq. He can control purple Zerg (he can control red Zerg, too, which ultimately belong to Daggoth as part of the Tiamat brood), which have generally been identified as Jormungand, but do they belong to him?

We don't know that the PC Cerebrate is Araq, I just said I that I was fine with the notion.

Aka. ignoring evidence.

Are you trolling me? Assumptions are not evidence. "Refusing to make assumptions" is in no way also known as ignoring evidence.

It's still not the same thing.

Yes it is, you're just still making up excuses to avoid dealing with Mengsk's fleet in Omega. "why should I believe your plothole-inducing inconsistent version of events when we can all accept the perfectly reasonable explanation?"

How? You've admitted that he needs lots of money to rebuild the Dominion.

Yes?

Money that he doesn't have.

Just because you assert something does not make it true. Can you substantiate this claim?

I feel like we're making no progress here. Did you not just tell me you had the answer to this question: "Simple question: why doesn't Mengsk just pay for (or simply demand) the armaments he needs instead of having to cash in on favors or make concessions?"

Because he's going to need a lot of money to rebuild the Dominion, and so requires this new fleet both as cheaply as possible, and as urgently as possible.

Amazingly, I have the answer and you are still incorrect.

Fair enough. But it should be known that Arcturus is known for his empty bluster. aka. "But you must know that your victory here means little to me."

He was concerned about the UED because they controlled all his colonies (not relevant in Omega), and the concern in true colors was surprise that Kerrigan actually betrayed him (one of the reasons people call him an idiot in BW).

Yes, Mengsk's claims are entirely untrustworthy. I'm just bringing it up because it's just another way in which nothing about Omega suggests that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position. It's not evidence that he's not, it's just another of the ways in which there's no reason to believe he is.

[Turalyon]

That seems excessively simplistic as an outlook. If someone is not completely destroyed or put down for good, they are invincible? I don't acknowledge such extreme dichotomies.

You could have fooled me. My original statement about Mengsk being "invincible" was essentially my interpretation of your position regarding Mengsk's unnatural durability.

Besides, Mengsk was completely destroyed and put down for good in Heart of the Swarm, so by your reasoning StarCraft II Mengsk is less invincible than Brood War Mengsk.

Until they say Mengsk survived because, you know, they've yet to reveal it in Sc3 and that nothing really seems to stay dead in Starcraft anymore. Afterall, a later appearance of Mengsk showing yet another absurd recovery is consistent with his previous absurd comeback/recoveries so it's really completely justified isn't it?

None of their victories have real/lasting consequences? I was under the impression that Aiur was still abandoned and devastated, despite no Zerg leader actually caring about it at all at this point. I was under the impression that the UED fleet had been entirely annihilated and didn't show up at all in StarCraft II.

Don't worry, LotV will show the Protoss miraculously retake Aiur again and Sc3 will have the UED invade again and it will all be justified because it will happen in later installments. See? No real harm done in the end.

It's not about Mengsk's behaviour demonstrating that he's still in great shape, it's about how nothing about Omega suggests that Mengsk has taken irrecoverable damage.

Weren't you just using Mengsk's behaviour as evidence for such a claim?

Either way, Mengsk has already suffered the irrecoverable damage prior to Omega. Saying that the Dominion is fully recovered in all respects just because Mengsk shows up with a fleet and is therefore (or rather, somehow) evidence that he can do anything forever more is rather a strong claim that is not readily self-apparent or immediately justifiable.

So you acknowledge that Mengsk has real power by Omega?

Mengsk does have power in Omega but of a specific kind which we've been trying to explain. You on the other hand have taken it for granted this to mean that Mengsk/Dominion is all-powerful in general.

It's very difficult to categorically say that Mengsk was in an irrecoverable position after Omega given that the omniscient narrator explicitly says that Mengsk is planning to rebuild his Dominion. Incidentally, [StarCraft II is out.

I have already poked holes in the so-called "omniscient" narration/epilogue text you claim to be as irrefutable evidence when it is really circumstantial. Sc2 doesn't really factor into the argument.

Your assumptions might have been reasonable after Brood War, even if I don't see why you'd make them, but it's already hindsight. It's absurd now.

This is what the argument has been about the whole time! With the perspective of the knowledge from BW only, it is potentially difficult to see Mengsk being realistically a force that could continue. Because Sc2 does not even to attempt to address this possibility is the reason why this is more aggravating.

It's not arbitrary, there are a tonne of reasons to keep Mengsk in power. He's an established character, he has a personal relationship with other important characters of the setting, it establishes the mood of the Dominion immediately, it creates story opportunities, etc. Having the Terrans be too weak to be playable would have been ridiculous. Having them stay stagnant despite the passage of five years would have been ridiculous and unrealistic.

I was talking arbitrary in the sense that it (the 5 years thing) seems like an ass pull rather than an actual reason. Besides, it's not my fault the BW writers wrote it such that it ended with everyone being under Kerrigan's thumb and were most likely going to be stamped out of existence in due course. It's the "reality" they created for themselves at that time. For a time, Starcraft's story pretty much ended right there.

Oh and it's kinda ironic how you comment on having the "Terrans being too weak to be playable as being ridiculous" when the Protoss are in that same exact scenario right now and yet we still have an excuse to play them (and that they might even win!) in LotV. Go figure.

[FanaticTemplar]

You could have fooled me. My original statement about Mengsk being "invincible" was essentially my interpretation of your position regarding Mengsk's unnatural durability.

It was an observation. I believe that True Colors was supposed to be a crippling blow to Mengsk, and then the authours decided they wanted to bring him back as a powerhouse for the big climax (Omega is actually a pretty bad climax... the narrative of Brood War peaks at To Chain the Beast, which should have been the real final mission. I suspect Omega was added purely for gameplay reasons, and there's a peculiarity with The Reckoning that makes me suspect it is out of order in the campaign... that's neither here nor there though). Much the same issue as how the authours wanted him to be the villain of the Terran Dominion, he really is well suited for a story that revolves around Raynor.

Of course, if you want me to make sense of it all and provide an explanation for both Omega and Wings of Liberty, I might be able to oblige.

Until they say Mengsk survived because, you know, they've yet to reveal it in Sc3 and that nothing really seems to stay dead in Starcraft anymore. Afterall, a later appearance of Mengsk showing yet another absurd recovery is consistent with his previous absurd comeback/recoveries so it's really completely justified isn't it?

There was a Brood War downloadable content map where you played Ghost infiltrators and discovered a number of projects the Terrans were working on, which includes both human reanimation using Zerg Infestation and study on Protoss Dragoons. So we could totally see Mengsk comeback as an infested supercyborg. Hell, they brought back Stukov. Which really, if you think Mengsk was in a bad shape after Brood War, what do you think about Stukov?

Don't worry, LotV will show the Protoss miraculously retake Aiur again and Sc3 will have the UED invade again and it will all be justified because it will happen in later installments. See? No real harm done in the end.

Feel free to revive the thread then.

Weren't you just using Mengsk's behaviour as evidence for such a claim?

No, I was highlighting the absence of evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though, you can't really take Mengsk at his word, and I'm not going to pretend that you should.

Either way, Mengsk has already suffered the irrecoverable damage prior to Omega. Saying that the Dominion is fully recovered in all respects just because Mengsk shows up with a fleet and is therefore (or rather, somehow) evidence that he can do anything forever more is rather a strong claim that is not readily self-apparent or immediately justifiable.

I never said he had fully recovered in all respects, I said that what Mengsk does here in a matter of days is equally implausible as what Mengsk will do in five years for Wings of Liberty.

More to the point, you just said "Mengsk has already suffered the irrecoverable damage prior to Omega", but when I earlier said that what you were hanging on to was the end of True Colors, you disagreed with me. If Mengsk has suffered irrecoverable damage prior to Omega, he should not have been able to make such a show of strength. Thus my point about absurd recoveries.

Mengsk does have power in Omega but of a specific kind which we've been trying to explain. You on the other hand have taken it for granted this to mean that Mengsk/Dominion is all-powerful in general.

I have not.

I have already poked holes in the so-called "omniscient" narration/epilogue text you claim to be as irrefutable evidence when it is really circumstantial. Sc2 doesn't really factor into the argument.

You've stated that the omniscient narration has been retconned in some instances. Can you demonstrate that this part has been retconned?

Because I have also told you how absurd it is to dismiss everything you don't like because "some things get retconned".

This is what the argument has been about the whole time! With the perspective of the knowledge from BW only, it is potentially difficult to see Mengsk being realistically a force that could continue. Because Sc2 does not even to attempt to address this possibility is the reason why this is more aggravating.

Yes, and as I have pointed out, "potentially" a problem is not something that needs to be addressed. The game did not need to address the fact that Tassadar survived the battle of New Gettysburg because his future appearances demonstrate that he did. Which is why I keep asking for actual evidence that he was in an irrecoverable position - Wings of Liberty is not flawed for contradicting your headcanon. I always felt that the end of Brood War was quite clear with regards to Mengsk's eventual return, and the sequel confirmed that.

I was talking arbitrary in the sense that it (the 5 years thing) seems like an ass pull rather than an actual reason. Besides, it's not my fault the BW writers wrote it such that it ended with everyone being under Kerrigan's thumb and were most likely going to be stamped out of existence in due course. It's the "reality" they created for themselves at that time. For a time, Starcraft's story pretty much ended right there.

I still don't understand your position at all. Recoveries do require time. And it's not Wings of Liberty that came up with the arbitrary notion that Kerrigan would give the rest of the Sector peace to rebuild, that's in Kerrigan's speech at the end of Brood War too.

Oh and it's kinda ironic how you comment on having the "Terrans being too weak to be playable as being ridiculous" when the Protoss are in that same exact scenario right now and yet we still have an excuse to play them (and that they might even win!) in LotV. Go figure.

They will almost certainly have benefited from the five years of peace as well.

[Turalyon]

... the narrative of Brood War peaks at To Chain the Beast, which should have been the real final mission.

I think you meant To Slay the Beast, right? Either that or you must secretly like the UED more than you put on.

there's a peculiarity with The Reckoning that makes me suspect it is out of order in the campaign... that's neither here nor there though

Aw c'mon, you've baited the hook now. You have to explain yourself here.

Much the same issue as how the authours wanted him to be the villain of the Terran Dominion, he really is well suited for a story that revolves around Raynor.

Be that as it may, it's kinda divided whether Raynor himself was even really worth revolving a story around, let alone including Mengsk. He's a pretty dull character but like Mengsk, he seems to be there just because he's contractually obligated to appear (or more politically correct, "recognisable").

Of course, if you want me to make sense of it all and provide an explanation for both Omega and Wings of Liberty, I might be able to oblige.

All we can give you are deemed as hypotheticals, which you won't even fathom, so there's not much more we can do. I'm not here to convince you to think my way, just to explain why we think the way we do.

There was a Brood War downloadable content map where you played Ghost infiltrators and discovered a number of projects the Terrans were working on, which includes both human reanimation using Zerg Infestation and study on Protoss Dragoons. So we could totally see Mengsk comeback as an infested supercyborg. Hell, they brought back Stukov. Which really, if you think Mengsk was in a bad shape after Brood War, what do you think about Stukov?

I had been so inured by the inane happenings of Sc2 at that point, such that when Stukov appeared in my first playthrough I wasn't really fazed by it. But thinking back on this with a clear head, there isn't a palm big enough to engulf my head in shame for the Stukov thing being confirmed.

I never said he had fully recovered in all respects, I said that what Mengsk does here in a matter of days is equally implausible as what Mengsk will do in five years for Wings of Liberty.

But can you not see that saying that those two thing being consistent and therefore justified intimates that he has actually fully recovered in all respects? Absurdity begets absurdity.

More to the point, you just said "Mengsk has already suffered the irrecoverable damage prior to Omega", but when I earlier said that what you were hanging on to was the end of True Colors, you disagreed with me. If Mengsk has suffered irrecoverable damage prior to Omega, he should not have been able to make such a show of strength. Thus my point about absurd recoveries.

The Protoss suffer "irrecoverable damage" too, and yet they can still make a show of strength. The "irrecoverable damage" was in regards to the Dominion. If it were in regard to Mengsk, "irrecoverable damage" would mean his death. Hence the hypothetical about Mengsk gaining his fleet through nothing but "talking" (because he's done this before with Duke) and how we can't expect him to keep doing this from the position he was last in. You seem to think that he can do this indefinitely, hence my flippant remark about being "invincible".

You've stated that the omniscient narration has been retconned in some instances.

No, you interpreted what I said to be this. All I said was that the narration is not omniscient.

The game did not need to address the fact that Tassadar survived the battle of New Gettysburg because his future appearances demonstrate that he did.

That's because no-one, (not even the audience) knew that Tassadar was even there or "on the ground" fighting so it wasn't even a question to begin with. Such logic invites and makes possible ridiculous claims like saying Raynor was really a Protoss the whole time because future appearance demonstrate that he always was. With Mengsk, the scenario going into Omega that he's "down but not out". When he loses, the question of whether he can get really get "up" is still very much open.

I still don't understand your position at all. Recoveries do require time. And it's not Wings of Liberty that came up with the arbitrary notion that Kerrigan would give the rest of the Sector peace to rebuild, that's in Kerrigan's speech at the end of Brood War too.

The end of BW essentially telegraphs that everyone but the Zerg are screwed no matter what. It's arbitrary that she just happened to conveniently do nothing at all in that whole time after BW. She reacts only after she cottons on about some mysterious artifact that can stop her and somehow does nothing about that prior to this or is conveniently ineffective after having a deathgrip over the sector immediately after BW. Oh and that bit about Kerrigan saying she was going to stop Mengsk from rising back to power? Well, she was just talking out her arse the whole time there. The game sure makes it clear that she is there but that her ending monologue and specific parts of the epilogue are somehow sacrosanct gospel, too.

They will almost certainly have benefited from the five years of peace as well.

And yet they hardly appear at all in Sc2 which for intents and purposes telegraphs their weakness. They're still weak because Raynor's apparently small band (which would've been most likely even smaller than the Terran presence at New Gettyburg when the SoK repelled the Protoss) can defeat a warband from their Executor which new and supposedly more powerful Protoss weapons and they don't even bother to help eradicate Kerrigan at the battle in All In. In HotS, they get defeated again by Kerrigan's small band of Zerg and arbitrarily have some godly insane Golden Armada which was somehow preserved or not used anytime before in Sc1 and BW. In LotV, Zeratul has to unite their tribes, meaning that they're disorganised and fractured just like they were after Sc1.

But, it's all OK because a few years passed and the implausible can become plausible without nary a thought. Given the recent mortality rates of Protoss and their inability to change and adapt, 5 years would have also been plenty of time for them to reasonably become extinct as well.