Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[FanaticTemplar]

I feel like I've made tremendous progress. Maybe I'm wrong, and I can go back to the point by point rebuttal, but I think I can skip over most of that and focus on your specific block.

Ironically, much like complaints about Raynor in Wings of Liberty, it comes down to True Colors. What I'm getting is that you like True Colors as the ending of Mengsk's story, with him abandoned, betrayed, powerless and alone in the ashes of his pride. And much like I pretend that the Prophecy arc never happened, you pretend that this is where Mengsk's story ends, and Omega never occurred. Omega involves an Arcturus Mengsk who is confident and arrogant, capable of amassing massive forces at a moment's notice to attack the most powerful creature in the Sector, and that would ruin your desired ending. You're frustrated with Wings of Liberty because it forces you to acknowledge that Omega happened.

So if I'm correct, then I suppose the course to making you realise this is to keep breaking the excuses you keep inventing to excuse Mengsk's feat in that mission.

Mengsk's fleet in Omega belonged to him. Both Kerrigan and the omniscient narration refer to it as such, and Mengsk acknowledges it. There is no evidence that it wasn't his, and no reason to assume such a thing.
Mengsk's fleet in Omega was not "borrowed". There is no evidence that it was, and no reason to assume such a thing. Concessions does no mean borrowing. Neither does calling in favours.
Mengsk's fleet has not burdened Mengsk with irrecoverable debt. There is no evidence that it has, and no reason to assume such a thing. Concessions does no mean indebting oneself. Calling in favours literally means the opposite, that others are indebted to you.
He didn't need to call in favours and make concessions to order around his fleet, he called in favours and made concessions to obtain it. That line is a direct reply to Kerrigan's question of how he scraped up his new fleet, making the connection more than obvious.

Did I miss any?

I never denied that he can obtain a fleet (he did that with Duke and all of Alpha Squadron afterall), I was trying to explain the naming convention as shown in the victory screen as being shaky evidence. It could been written for the sake of convenience and ease of parsing for all we know. Afterall, the game lists the PC cerebrates brood in Sc1 as Jormungand when we are not even Araq. And, if I'm not mistaken, BW also lists formerly eradicated broods in Garm appearing and also shows the brown cerebrate in command of the Grendel brood still being alive after being killed by Dark Templar in Sc1.

No, the red Terran is "Elite Guard". "Terran Dominion" is the "forces" identifier in the Editor, and was consciously chosen by the creators of Omega.

[Gradius]

I feel like I've made tremendous progress. Maybe I'm wrong, and I can go back to the point by point rebuttal, but I think I can skip over most of that and focus on your specific block.

I'm pretty impressed with your ability to defend what I consider to be an untenable position, but the bottom line is that you still can't prove that Mengsk made some sort of massive recovery in BW.

Ironically, much like complaints about Raynor in Wings of Liberty, it comes down to True Colors. What I'm getting is that you like True Colors as the ending of Mengsk's story, with him abandoned, betrayed, powerless and alone in the ashes of his pride. And much like I pretend that the Prophecy arc never happened, you pretend that this is where Mengsk's story ends, and Omega never occurred. Omega involves an Arcturus Mengsk who is confident and arrogant, capable of amassing massive forces at a moment's notice to attack the most powerful creature in the Sector, and that would ruin your desired ending. You're frustrated with Wings of Liberty because it forces you to acknowledge that Omega happened.

On the contrary, Omega only serves as the proverbial last nail in the coffin for Mengsk. After being abandoned and betrayed on Korhal, he further indebts himself in a last ditch effort that ends up failing. Kind of like a gambler who just lost all his money and decides to risk it all on one last move.

Fact is, even if you prove that Mengsk's fleet in Omega is unreasonable, it still doesn't justify his recoveries by Wings of Liberty & HoTS.

Mengsk's fleet in Omega belonged to him. Both Kerrigan and the omniscient narration refer to it as such, and Mengsk acknowledges it. There is no evidence that it wasn't his, and no reason to assume such a thing.
Mengsk's fleet in Omega was not "borrowed". There is no evidence that it was, and no reason to assume such a thing. Concessions does no mean borrowing. Neither does calling in favours.
Mengsk's fleet has not burdened Mengsk with irrecoverable debt. There is no evidence that it has, and no reason to assume such a thing. Concessions does no mean indebting oneself. Calling in favours literally means the opposite, that others are indebted to you.
He didn't need to call in favours and make concessions to order around his fleet, he called in favours and made concessions to obtain it. That line is a direct reply to Kerrigan's question of how he scraped up his new fleet, making the connection more than obvious.

Did I miss any?

Concession - A thing that is granted, especially in response to demands.

HE is the one making concessions. HE is giving in to others' demands. I know you think that this is the norm for political leaders, but Stalin and Hitler never had to give in to others' demands to use government resources. Likewise, they did not have to use up goodwill & cash in on favors to proceed with normal military operations. Calling in a favor is like using up positive balance on your credit. You don't do this for something that is already yours. Mengsk is squandering the chance to call in this favor later.

The fleet is Mengsk's in the same way that my new house that I can't afford and had to get a loan for is mine. Our position is very simple. At every other point in the game, Mengsk had assets that he could freely use. But now he has to ask for them. This is consistent with his defeat on Korhal.

[ragnarok]

On the contrary, Omega only serves as the proverbial last nail in the coffin for Mengsk. After being abandoned and betrayed on Korhal, he further indebts himself in a last ditch effort that ends up failing. Kind of like a gambler who just lost all his money and decides to risk it all on one last move.

Fact is, even if you prove that Mengsk's fleet in Omega is unreasonable, it still doesn't justify his recoveries by Wings of Liberty & HoTS.

It does for WoL. He had 4 years to rebuild and everything. Kerrigan withdrew the swarm to Char and there was virtually no attacks on the Dominion until 2503 (DT Saga). This was even confirmed in Shadow Hunters, the 2nd part of the book, when Mengsk was telling Valerian about the attack on Dead Man's Rock.

So the Dominion ITSELF made sense to be rebuilt.

But for Mengsk's throne, that's another matter, and why the hell the people refused to turn on him after he botched things so badly. I'm still unsure what to make of it all from a lore reason if the "too risky to make that move due to the threat of extinction" isn't viable.

Then the only reason left is because Blizzard didn't know what new enemy to think up, so they left him alive.

[FanaticTemplar]

I'm pretty impressed with your ability to defend what I consider to be an untenable position, but the bottom line is that you still can't prove that Mengsk made some sort of massive recovery in BW.

Not by your standards, no. But by your standards, you can't prove that Mengsk made some kind of massive recovery in Wings of Liberty. I mean, have you read what you provided me? I claim that Mengsk obtaining a massive fleet is evidence of recovery, and you deny it. Then, as evidence of his recovery you claim:

*builds extravagant weapons like the Odin and unveils a new battlecruiser every week

A massive fleet of Battlecruisers in days? Not evidence. One Battlecruiser a week? Evidence. I could not have imagined a more flagrant demonstration of the double standard at play here.

On the contrary, Omega only serves as the proverbial last nail in the coffin for Mengsk. After being abandoned and betrayed on Korhal, he further indebts himself in a last ditch effort that ends up failing. Kind of like a gambler who just lost all his money and decides to risk it all on one last move.

I know the narrative you want me to believe, but there is no connection between it and the facts of Omega. There is no evidence that he was either all-in or indebted.

Fact is, even if you prove that Mengsk's fleet in Omega is unreasonable, it still doesn't justify his recoveries by Wings of Liberty & HoTS.

I don't care. My only point is that it was consistent with Brood War.

Concession - A thing that is granted, especially in response to demands.

HE is the one making concessions. HE is giving in to others' demands. I know you think that this is the norm for political leaders, but Stalin and Hitler never had to give in to others' demands to use government resources. Likewise, they did not have to use up goodwill & cash in on favors to proceed with normal military operations. Calling in a favor is like using up positive balance on your credit. You don't do this for something that is already yours. Mengsk is squandering the chance to call in this favor later.

Wait, so your position is that if the fleet was not obtained for free, then it is evidence of the Dominion's collapse? That is nonsense. There is ample evidence that the Dominion purchases military technology and armaments from for-profit corporations. Examples: Bellerephon, Cirion Multinational Corporation, Enlightened Dynamics, Procyon Industries, Wolfe Industries. Every fleet requires the Dominion to expend resources to obtain and to maintain, this one is not exceptional.

The fleet is Mengsk's in the same way that my new house that I can't afford and had to get a loan for is mine.

And the moment that you can demonstrate - or even reasonably suggest - that this is true and not just wishful thinking on your part is the moment you have convinced me that you are correct.

[Gradius]

Not by your standards, no. But by your standards, you can't prove that Mengsk made some kind of massive recovery in Wings of Liberty. I mean, have you read what you provided me? I claim that Mengsk obtaining a massive fleet is evidence of recovery, and you deny it. Then, as evidence of his recovery you claim:

A massive fleet of Battlecruisers in days? Not evidence. One Battlecruiser a week? Evidence. I could not have imagined a more flagrant demonstration of the double standard at play here.

The only double standard is that you refuse to apply that logic to the Kel-Morian Combine, Umoja, or virtually anybody else. The idea that only Mengsk can have any shred of power just shatters any attempt of SC2 being a realistic war game. When you can just sweep a bunch of crushing military and political defeats under the rug, the story becomes worthless.

I know the narrative you want me to believe, but there is no connection between it and the facts of Omega. There is no evidence that he was either all-in or indebted.

Again I ask, why should I believe your plothole-inducing inconsistent version of events when we can all accept the perfectly reasonable explanation? The fact that his military has run out is the evidence. Having to cash in on favors and make concessions to random people to get basic military assets can never be spun as proof of a recovery. Ever.

Wait, so your position is that if the fleet was not obtained for free, then it is evidence of the Dominion's collapse? That is nonsense. There is ample evidence that the Dominion purchases military technology and armaments from for-profit corporations. Examples: Bellerephon, Cirion Multinational Corporation, Enlightened Dynamics, Procyon Industries, Wolfe Industries. Every fleet requires the Dominion to expend resources to obtain and to maintain, this one is not exceptional.

And that's fine, but whereas before the Dominion had its own military with armaments purchased from aforementioned corporations, now it has to grant political concessions and cash in on favors to get armaments because their entire military just got trashed, and presumably they can't afford to pay for more...

And the moment that you can demonstrate - or even reasonably suggest - that this is true and not just wishful thinking on your part is the moment you have convinced me that you are correct.

Simple question: why doesn't Mengsk just pay for (or simply demand) the armaments he needs instead of having to cash in on favors or make concessions? The moment you find the answer is the moment you'll realize that I'm correct.

I mean even then it's pretty obvious that Mengsk is underplaying his defeat. "Oh I had to do a little bit of this, a little bit of that". What do you expect him to say? "This is my last ditch effort to get you Kerrigan!"

[Turalyon]

Ironically, much like complaints about Raynor in Wings of Liberty, it comes down to True Colors. What I'm getting is that you like True Colors as the ending of Mengsk's story, with him abandoned, betrayed, powerless and alone in the ashes of his pride. And much like I pretend that the Prophecy arc never happened, you pretend that this is where Mengsk's story ends, and Omega never occurred. Omega involves an Arcturus Mengsk who is confident and arrogant, capable of amassing massive forces at a moment's notice to attack the most powerful creature in the Sector, and that would ruin your desired ending. You're frustrated with Wings of Liberty because it forces you to acknowledge that Omega happened.

For me, nope. I'm not pretending Omega didn't exist nor do I have to. I'm just saying that what looks like a history of absurd comebacks (of which, Omega is really the only one) is not necessarily so and therefore that is not enough to claim that Mengsk/the Dominion was always invincible or has an infinite well of resources. Given the context of multiple defeats that have gutted his Dominion, the comeback in Omega can be interpreted as a last gasp. That comeback is only evidence that he got a fleet at that one specific time and nothing else, not that that he can keep repeating the feat nor that the political structure of the Dominion is reconstituted. One could just as easily say he probably pawned off what remained of the ashes of his Dominion to get the necessary funds to get the fleet, bankrupting himself in the process. We don't know and Mengsk is certainly not going to say that if that's indeed what he had to do.

In regards to the absurdity of being able to talk to someone to get a fleet, one has to consider that Mengsk essentially did that already with a fleet called the Alpha Squadron by just talking to Duke and Mengsk didn't even have to bribe him, ask favours or make concessions for that! What's more he didn't even have any real power over Duke then either (Mengsk intimates that Duke would've died if he didn't show up, but we don't really know that for sure). Duke only stuck around with Mengsk afterward because he kept his word. If Mengsk had to rely on nothing but talk to barter for the fleet, one would naturally assume that he'd be beholden to something else in exchange.

Stating things that happen in a later iteration to justify an assumption (which sounds eerily like the justification for the Overmind retcon, not that I'm saying that this is a retcon just that the reasoning is flawed/circular) or that BW was obviously created to make a sequel do not support the fact that the Dominion/Mengsk were always going to be in the sequel. The five years passed is not acceptable either since anything can happen up to an and including Mengsk and the Dominion still ruling but also equally the possibility of Mengsk dying or the Dominion not being around.

Mengsk's fleet in Omega belonged to him. Both Kerrigan and the omniscient narration refer to it as such, and Mengsk acknowledges it. There is no evidence that it wasn't his, and no reason to assume such a thing.

Much in the same way the Jormungand Brood belongs to the PC cerebrate?

[LestersPetZergling]

aaaaa

[TheEconomist]

To say that Mengsk mustering forces out of nowhere is ridiculous is ironic given the analogy to World War II.

The economist in me really wants to tear into this but I'm currently on a much needed vacation from debating.

[LestersPetZergling]

Nevermind. Not even going to get involved.

I suppose you are a Keynesian?

- - - Updated - - -

Nevermind. Not even going to get involved.

I suppose you are a Keynesian?

[TheEconomist]

No. Far from it. But what I am cannot be placed under any ideology. That's why I'm better than most others.

Why would you think I was a Keynesian? Was that a jab?