Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[FanaticTemplar]

Are we really having this conversation? :P

Eh, let's not .

Except Mengsk never said "I am going to rebuild the Dominion and lord over all other factions". He uttered a vague threat of "I'm going to get you back one day!" Whereas Kerrigan said "let's be real. this will be a very tough fight".

Kerrigan never said that this was a tougher fight than the last time she invaded five years ago. In fact, she also said "Let's be real. This will be a very tough fight." that time as well: "But remember that we're up against one of the most heavily defended planets in the sector. Laying siege to Korhal won't be easy."

"The Morians started off with their own supercarrier of people in the koprulu sector, and challenged the Confederacy during the Guild Wars.

The Confederacy was destroyed by Mengsk's psi emitters (9 of the 13 core worlds got wasted). That alone is enough to justify my argument. But then Mengsk got trashed by the UED and the Morians went back to working for themselves. Then Korhal got wrecked by Kerrigan. Then Kerrigan destroyed all of Mengsk's assets on Augustgrad again. Then Mengsk lost the puny remainders of whatever he had left at Omega.

In the meantime, Moria was attacked once for a mineral raid. So, tell me, who sounds like they're in a better position?"

^---it doesn't get any more blatant than that. If you think it's subjective, fine, just say so. But stop saying there's no evidence.

You show that they started off at the same strength level, but that's irrelevant because we know they don't stay at the same strength level. We know that "In the decade since the end of the Guild Wars, the oppressive Terran Confederacy has stood unchallenged in its supremacy over colonial space."

It's his fleet but it's not the Dominion's fleet. If it was the Dominion's fleet he'd be able to summon it up like he's been doing all game, not have to make favors and concessions. Even you can agree that this is damn solid evidence that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt during Omega, yes?

See, this is the point I really don't get with you guys. Why do you think it's not his fleet (or a Dominion fleet)? Because he's had to make sacrifices to get it? What does that have to do with anything? He had to make sacrifices to get his Dominion in the first place.

If you want to ignore everything I wrote here sure: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post182585

You seem fine with ignoring the evidence I present.

Mengsk's Dominion in Brood War was founded on four surviving planets after nine others were lost to alien invasions, and he had a handful of months to build his empire.
Mengsk's Dominion in Wings of Liberty was founded on three surviving planets after ten others were lost to alien invasions, and he had over four years to build his empire.

There's no way one planet is a better deal than four additional years in that situation. There's no way that a single planet is worth the difference in time in that situation. And if you include the retcons that give Mengsk a whole lot more planets to deal with, then the value of a single one decreases even more. If the Terran systems were incapable of recovering on three planets, there's no way Mengsk could build mighty empire in a few months off off four. So you see, entirely consistent.

Mengsk is abandoned "in the ashes of his precious empire" not allowed to ever recover again, and within the span of weeks he's effortlessly commanding one of the most powerful military forces in the Sector. I call that a recovery. But you try to excuse it by claiming that it's not really "his" army, even though everyone in the game calls it such, including the omniscient narrator. You don't have any reason for that, except that you don't want to accept the fact that Mengsk made a ridiculous recovery in no time at all.

The epilogue tells us that Mengsk is going to be rebuilding his Terran Dominion, Wings of Liberty shows us that Brood War was entirely correct in claiming that, and you say this is an inconsistency?

Meanwhile, I've already read the post you linked to when you linked to it two posts ago. You're just building a narrative. You don't have any evidence that Mengsk was in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. You don't have any evidence that anyone could or would supplant him. You just prove that the Dominion suffered a lot in Brood War and from there jump to your conclusion.

Not true. You previously stated "If you want to say that Mengsk's recovery makes no sense, then I'll be right there agreeing with you. If you want to say it's inconsistent with Brood War, that's a different issue, because it is a problem established by Brood War". We've been asking you to explain what makes it consistent with BW, but you've failed to demonstrate that he made any miraculous recoveries in BW. In fact, you said "You've only demonstrated that Mengsk was weaker at the end of Brood War than he was at the beginning."

So...what exactly is your point? You agree with us about Wings of Liberty, but you claim that there's a double standard because the same thing goes on in BW itself. That would mean you think there's a contradiction in BW and that therefore the burden of evidence is on you. Not that that means anything. Burden of proof doesn't mean that one side is obligated to churn out facts and evidence until the other side finally finds something that it likes. The burden of proof shifts anytime something new is presented.

Yes, the recoveries make no sense, but that's not problematic to me. War RTS games require the factions to have powerful armies. It's a similar issue with the Mira Han missions, or Raynor's fleet of Battlecruisers in Eye of the Storm. The only way Mengsk recovery would be problematic to me is if Brood War indicated that he could not recover (as happened in True Colors and was then contradicted in Omega) or reverted a defeat into a victory (as happened in the battle of Aiur between StarCraft and Brood War). But there's no evidence that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. In fact, he appears to be in a much better position than he was after True Colors, from which he actually did recover. In the one, he was abandoned among the ashes, in the other he still had his crippled fleet. In the one, Kerrigan promised she would not let him recover, in the other Mengsk is already planing his recovery and Kerrigan has retreated the Swarm to Char and allowed him a reprieve. Things are looking up.

The arms industry doesn't sell troops.

Neither do salvage dumps, which is where Kerrigan claimed Mengsk must have found his miraculous fleet. It's the armament that was a surprise, not the people.

Look, the logic can only go one of two ways here. Either the Dominion is so broke that it can't afford to pay for arms, or it can't afford to muster up troops. Otherwise, I'd love to hear your explanation for why Mengsk had to make concessions/favors instead of just ordering the Dominion fleet around like he's been doing all game. Saying "Everyone may have been beaten and broken by Kerrigan, but Mengsk is still the one-eyed man in the land of the blind" is not an answer. It's you conceding to the fact that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion.

Um, no? How is saying that Mengsk is still stronger than the other Terrans "conceding that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion"? This isn't complicated, Mengsk had to buy himself a new fleet, fast. He did so, using his authority and influence as the most powerful Terran in the Sector.

He was easy to deal with. One of her subordinates took care of that problem along with 2 others in one swoop. Even if the Cerebrate lost, it would have been nothing more than an inconvenience.

It would have been pretty bad for Kerrigan if they killed her, I feel. Back then she couldn't endlessly reincarnate.

But if you want to pretend that the writers at Blizzard wrote the climactic battle of the game in which all of Kerrigan's greatest foes ally against her in a way where this was going to be easy to deal with, then I have no idea why you complain about the writing in StarCraft II. That's something phenomenally basic to screw up.

Telenil calls his a wall-of-text? He's got nothing on me.

I'm replying to you and Gradius both in the same post. Fear me .

You were expecting this still even after BW upended what you thought was Protoss' victory at the end of Sc1?

As to you referencing "the last things we hear", I made a point about this about Raynor that you dismissed. He made promises and said stuff too you know... we know how well that turned out.

Yeah, but just because some of the narrative in StarCraft gets retconned doesn't mean that the parts which aren't retconned should have been retconned... that way lies madness.

Also, if you want to argue that we can't trust any of the text of any of the games because some of it gets retconned, what are we even arguing about? :P.

This I can support you on. However, that really isn't what I and the others are saying. Mengsk is becoming weaker in comparison to his previous comeback when you look at the context at each of his comebacks. Telenil has detailed that very well.

Yes, but in Brood War, those are comebacks from successive defeats in the span of a single month. If he can achieve all that within just weeks, are you really telling me that what he achieved in the five years leading to Wings of Liberty is that incredible? He negotiated himself an Omega fleet in days!

I think most people would disagree here. This is actually a criticism levelled at BW in that by the end of it, it strongly intimates that all forces except Kerrigan are weakened into irrelevance and will eventually be wiped out altogther. It is also partly why WoL seems artificially propped and stilted in it's setting because it has to contrive a reason to prevent the inevitable outcome that BW's ending pushed/suggests (ie: all non-Zerg are effed).

Well, I agree that all non-Zerg are effed by the end of Brood War, but that's more a problem of the Zerg being retconned to infinite power rather than the other factions being weakened to irrelevance. The end of Brood War doesn't make it look like they're going to be irrelevant when dealing with non-infinitely powerful Zerg factions, is what I meant. Brood War itself promised a sequel through Dark Origins and Kerrigan's feeling that a great threat loomed over the horizon and that her victory was hollow and there were trials yet to come. That's why the epilogue has every faction rebuilding, so that they could be relevant again when the sequel came. I felt that intention was pretty clear, but maybe I'm wrong.

I get this, but by doing this we are relegating the whole of BW as being pointless because it whitewashes any impact the UED could have had. On reflection, I've gotten used to Mengsk's representation as being somewhat incompetent in BW but only as long as this characterisation was earnt and had consequence. By having things still go his way despite him actually being incompetent than he lets on is a slap in the face. It's also the reason why in Sc2, he is such a terribly conceived villain that it feels unjustified to waste two installments on him.

Well, you know my opinion on this. Brood War relegates itself to pointlessness. Honestly, the damage to the Dominion wasn't from the UED - they're pretty clear that they want to use the Dominion's resources and population to further their agenda, so the ravages they made to Mengsk's power are minimal - but from Kerrigan herself, and StarCraft II still (sadly) portrays her and the Zerg as infinitely powerful, so in that way the impact of Brood War is not lost.

I understand the conceit for this, but I fail to see why Mengsk has to be the villain of Sc2 given his track record.

Because Brood War didn't establish anyone who could take his place. Having him replaced off-screen by someone we are informed is more competent is literally how we get to "characters" like Amon, and I can tell you absolutely that this forum would have howled at this if Blizzard had attempted it.

Besides, Mengsk is an interesting character. Or used to be, anyway.

Right, so there was some acknowledgement that the Protoss victory came at a cost before the retcon took full affect. We don't even have the privilege of that in WoL. Mengsk from Sc1 can easily transition into his Sc2 representation without so much of a problem. The reason it is a problem, because like it or not, BW did happen and stuff happened to Mengsk in BW.

Actually, they retcon it to an acknowledgement that the Zerg victory came at a cost, before hitting with the subsequent retcon that the Zerg are also infinitely powerful now, and that cost was meaningless.

I was being somewhat facetious there, because I know that there really was massive changes in status quo. However, I'm pretty sure you relegate BW as being worthless for the same facetious logic I used (the UED came and went like a fart in the wind), when there was ample opportunity for status quo changing events. One of which being the high possibility of Mengsk becoming irrelevant.

Yes, I agree, and if Brood War had ended with Mengsk becoming irrelevant, then that would have made Brood War much more valuable as a story, and you would be correct that his situation in Wings of Liberty is a retcon. However, I don't think Brood War ended with Mengsk becoming irrelevant.

And yet we have WoL which starts off trying to explain that Raynor had been a thorn in Mengsk's side for years and only recently has he been losing. Can we use the same justification for Raynor's comeback in Sc1 to explain his reapperance in WoL? At what point does this become untenable for you?

I don't think I understood your question.

It does when it shake the foundations of one's already threadbare authority. You have to take into account, he has no Dominion to help repay damages and he has lost further face/reputation. Sure, you can't measure something as reputation but at this point, that's all Mengsk has and it's been tarnished. He is now in the most vulnerable part of his life than at any other previous time. Before he was the leader of the Sons of Korhal he enjoyed and could make use of anonymity to build his coalitions but now, he's overexposed and with his pants down.

I don't see why losing in Omega would tarnish his reputation. Hell, after that battle the Zerg didn't show up again for five years. That's got to be great for the old propaganda mill, no? But even if people somehow knew it was a defeat, so what? The Zerg have destroyed every other force ever sent against them. They consumed the Confederacy, they annihilated the Protoss... why would they think Mengsk is expected to win, and why would they think that the internal strife of a revolution is a wise move at this point?

How can he realistically offer those when, at the time, he has no empire/Dominion? There's nothing against him promising and lying to those special interest groups that he can impart such privileges later, but he is not, at that specific time, in the position to give them this.

I don't know about that. The Dominion is in ruins, but I'm pretty sure it's still his, even at that point. Possibly, those concessions were things he had to give to make sure his Dominion didn't fall apart. We don't really have enough info to tell.

As soon as you provide evidence that the force he commands in Omega is actually representative of the Dominion.

Everyone refers to it as being his fleet. If you want to assert that it's not, you have to provide the evidence.

That's because it's debatable that his comebacks in BW are implausible. Following from that, it's debatable that Mengsk can keeping continuing to plausibly comeback.

But his comeback in Wings of Liberty is also debatable in its implausibility. I know, I'm debating it .

One, because there is, in the absence of hard evidence, anecdotal evidence to suggest that Mengsk's comebacks in BW came with an ever increasing cost that he would be hard pressed to pay. My stance is a little bit softer than the other guys because I've mentioned earlier and elsewhere that I have no real qualms about Mengsk coming back either just that there is no acknowledgement of the hardship and continuation of ramifications from BW. And two, I haven't had the chance to complain about the other ones yet.

True, but by the reckoning of Mengsk recoveries, it's been a long time since he took that beating. This would be the narrative equivalent of a shout-out.

Someone who has the power to give someone else something does not mean that the person who was granted that thing has more power than original person who gave it to them in the first place. Especially so when the person doing the asking has nothing to give but promises in return.

I don't think Mengsk bought his fleet from a single person.

No. He is able to wrangle the support of others out of nothing but his words because that's the conceit of his character. There is consistency there because he does this to Duke afterall. The price he pays is only once he loses the fleet because it destroys the conceit of his ability to sweet-talk anyone now.

Why?

Not sure if I did say anything about turning his world into a superfortress really nor really thought about that being fine. I didn't even consider Augustgrad in BW to be that much of a deal probably because of the limitations of the game showing his "fortress" to be not much different/larger than any other outpost represented in other previous missions. The sparseness of that and the world itself being some nuclear desert/hostile looking didn't really help convey how powerful he was or that the world was occupied by any substantial civilian element. Even if it were not that, Korhal would have been the original base of his Sons of Korhal organisation, so there would've been some standing military force being bolstered by the remaining disparate Confederate troops that looked to him for guidance. The sparseness of Korhal there then becoming an ecumenopolis and peaceful centre of a largely harmonious/unified Terran presence in 5 years speaks of enormous, unheard of power and capability beyond what was even thought possible. Yeah, Rome wasn't built in a day... just five years is all.

I don't think Korhal would have been a Sons of Korhal base... that would be the first place the Confederacy would have looked for them. Remember that the Sons of Korhal couldn't operate openly. And if you think Confederate troops survived the fall of Tarsonis, why do you think Dominion troops didn't survive the fall of Korhal?

Anyway, the question isn't about how fast Mengsk rebuilt Korhal. It's about whether this speed is implausible by the standards set by the series thus far. The entire Terran population of the Koprulu System is only two and a half hundred years old, and they started from almost scratch and don't get immigrants.

[FanaticTemplar]

Oh, and the third one arrived while I was writing the other post... just as well, probably. I think the post might have been too long otherwise :P.

Mengsk's forces (I assume you mean that since she does leave Arcturus unharmed) are not "too dangerous", they "might be dangerous". About as much as Fenix's forces could be. Kerrigan is not taking any chance, and besides, she wanted to screw Arcturus no matter what, as revenge for getting left behind on Tarsonis.

Yes... they might be too dangerous to allow to live. What answer does she come up with to that hesitation? "They must all be eradicated." and "Slaughter them all in my name!". The meaning of that "might" is pretty clear.

I'm not sure of what you are trying to prove with these epilogues. Kerrigan had suffered a serious setback at the end of episode 5, so did Mengsk at the end of episode 6, and both made a threat before fleeing (this is also true of Artanis). There is a similarity in that sense, but since Brood War ends with Mengsk's words, the parallel could only be relevant for the recovery he makes before Starcraft 2, not the alledged unbelievable recoveries he made in Brood War.

Since my point is that the recovery in Wings of Liberty is not any more implausible than the ones in Brood War, that's still relevant. I'm arguing against three people at the same time, it can be hard to keep track of what degree of credibility you afford to each recovery, so I apologise if I make some mistake on that.

Arguable. The phrase can also be taken as "now that we have destroyed the UED here, the only thing that really threatens me is their forces on Char". Since the rest of the briefing mentions it won't be difficult to take both allies with a surprise attack, I stand by my understanding.

Nope. Again, Duran switches the topic by bringing up Mengsk, Raynor and Fenix. They were not what Kerrigan was talking about.

Thus it made him weaker. Or are you arguing that being deposed and losing your heavily defended capital city was a negligible loss?

Of course it wasn't a negligible loss. And yet he recovered admirably in no time at all.

Duke and Fenix together were defeated with "relative ease", and Mengsk is easy without Duke. So yes, it does mean that the threat the Dominion posed before before True Colors ranks at "relative ease".

What is true is Kerrigan understimated Arcturus as a person, in that she did not expect him to be able to rally a fleet at all. But she felt threatened by the combined forces of the three fleets, not by Arcturus' forces particularly. Omega put the Zerg against virtually every other faction left in the Sector, and they won anyway. What do you think the Dominion military alone could have done at this point?

There has never been any point after the Brood War retcon where anyone could do anything to the Zerg without magic, so that's entirely irrelevant, unless you're proposing that Mengsk was a threat to the entirety of the Zerg Swarm prior to being deposed by the UED? What is relevant is that Mengsk was still dangerous in both True Colors and Omega.

When the UED moved against Aiur, Mengsk commanded a single battlecruiser fleeing from Korhal at top speed. They were moving to intercept Mengsk specifically, not his (at the time) non-existent army. The notion that emperor Arcturus Mengsk, as a person, is a danger to the UED is evidenced by the fact that DuGalle makes a point of executing him publicly, even after they have captured him. Which kind of make sense: unlike Kerrigan, the UED cared about politics.

What you are showing is that the UED considered Arcturus Mengsk could cause trouble even without an empire. Kerrigan didn't, and Omega shows that the UED probably made a better judgement. Which is an interesting point, that particular thought had never occured to me before.

Exactly.

Essentially correct, with the caveat that Arcturus also "called in favours". I'm not a native speaker, but I understand this as "you give me something now and I will do something for you later", like getting in debt, only not with money. If this is the case, it does seem to imply that he was a bit short on actual compensations.

Hmm, I'm not a native speaker of English either, but I'm fairly certain "calling in favours" is the other end of what you brought up. It's calling in the debt, like "Hey, remember that service I did for you last month? Now it's time for you to do something for me."

In any case, the point is not that the favors were costly, it is that he had to make concessions at all - as opposed to ordering people around or giving money. He couldn't intimidate or coerce these people into joining him. Besides, as Kerrigan understands the situation, people are going to be disappointed, which supports the idea that Arcturus was given the fleet for this mission specifically.

I think it just means that it was an argument he used to convince people to sell cheap.

Anyway, to the point I'm making, a few concessions and favours for an end-game fleet delivered in days after you were abandoned in the ashes of your own empire seems like a pretty substantial recovery to me. Even if Mengsk is underselling how much it cost him (and I expect he is) that's still going from zero to superbadass in only a few days.

[Gradius]

Eh, let's not .

Good call. :P

You show that they started off at the same strength level, but that's irrelevant because we know they don't stay at the same strength level. We know that "In the decade since the end of the Guild Wars, the oppressive Terran Confederacy has stood unchallenged in its supremacy over colonial space."

Right, it's subjective, but that only gets you so far. You can't keep ignoring consistent military defeats and relegating one of the richest factions in the game to mediocrity. Let me remind you of their manual description:

The Kel-Morian Combine is comprised of two powerful organisations: The Kelanis Guildand the Morian Mining Coalition. These two groups, both with questionable ties to the
Confederacy, have banded together in order to maximise their ability to drain the resources
from numerous worlds within the sector. The Combine is the largest non-Confederate
organisation operating within Terran space. Equipped with thousands of armed troops and
hardware, the Combine strictly enforces its myriad territorial operations. It is rumoured that
the Combine actually supplies the Confederacy with fuels and resources. So great is their
political influence, the Confederate forces have been banned from prosecuting the Combine
for any potentially criminal action.

And these guys can't be a threat to Mengsk, who just got repeatedly demolished. Why? o.o

See, this is the point I really don't get with you guys. Why do you think it's not his fleet (or a Dominion fleet)?

Whether it's technically "his" or not after he bought it with favors is completely irrelevant. The fact that he has to beg for it is proof that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt. This is proof that there was no Dominion recovery made.

Mengsk's Dominion in Brood War was founded on four surviving planets after nine others were lost to alien invasions, and he had a handful of months to build his empire.
Mengsk's Dominion in Wings of Liberty was founded on three surviving planets after ten others were lost to alien invasions, and he had over four years to build his empire.

There's no way one planet is a better deal than four additional years in that situation. There's no way that a single planet is worth the difference in time in that situation. And if you include the retcons that give Mengsk a whole lot more planets to deal with, then the value of a single one decreases even more. If the Terran systems were incapable of recovering on three planets, there's no way Mengsk could build mighty empire in a few months off off four. So you see, entirely consistent.

I'm not sure where you're getting those WoL planet numbers from, but the core worlds were originally thirteen planets ruled over by the Terran Confederacy. It stands to reason that the other two terran factions (Moria and Umoja) helped in rebuilding the Dominion after the Confederacy's downfall, making it much more realistic. But this also means that we have to give them credit for being more powerful than the Dominion (which is assumed to consist of former Confederate planets).

Mengsk is abandoned "in the ashes of his precious empire" not allowed to ever recover again, and within the span of weeks he's effortlessly commanding one of the most powerful military forces in the Sector. I call that a recovery. But you try to excuse it by claiming that it's not really "his" army, even though everyone in the game calls it such, including the omniscient narrator. You don't have any reason for that, except that you don't want to accept the fact that Mengsk made a ridiculous recovery in no time at all.

It would be a recovery if he magically showed up with a new fleet from the Dominion. The fact that he had to bribe people to give him what he needs nullifies the notion of a recovery.

The epilogue tells us that Mengsk is going to be rebuilding his Terran Dominion, Wings of Liberty shows us that Brood War was entirely correct in claiming that, and you say this is an inconsistency?

Yes, because of the degree of rebuilding.

Meanwhile, I've already read the post you linked to when you linked to it two posts ago. You're just building a narrative. You don't have any evidence that Mengsk was in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. You don't have any evidence that anyone could or would supplant him. You just prove that the Dominion suffered a lot in Brood War and from there jump to your conclusion.

I guess I think it's a really obvious conclusion. And yes, I do have evidence. The Dominion is militarily bankrupt, while other people are left with assets that Mengsk has to bribe them for.

There is no 100% irrefutable proof that someone is going to supplant him. SC1 has a barebones plot. Still, there's the underlying assumption that it's a realistic universe, in which case somebody is obligated to supplant him after his myriad failures and hits to his reputation.

Yes, the recoveries make no sense, but that's not problematic to me. War RTS games require the factions to have powerful armies. It's a similar issue with the Mira Han missions, or Raynor's fleet of Battlecruisers in Eye of the Storm. The only way Mengsk recovery would be problematic to me is if Brood War indicated that he could not recover (as happened in True Colors and was then contradicted in Omega) or reverted a defeat into a victory (as happened in the battle of Aiur between StarCraft and Brood War). But there's no evidence that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position at the end of Brood War. In fact, he appears to be in a much better position than he was after True Colors, from which he actually did recover. In the one, he was abandoned among the ashes, in the other he still had his crippled fleet. In the one, Kerrigan promised she would not let him recover, in the other Mengsk is already planing his recovery and Kerrigan has retreated the Swarm to Char and allowed him a reprieve. Things are looking up.

Yeah, that's still not evidence of a recovery. At no point did she promise she wouldn't let him recover. She said "Without the services of General Duke, Mengsk will be easy to deal with". By eliminating Duke and destroying his assets again, she prevented him from being able to rise to the power he once had. This is consistent with Omega where his fleet gets swatted away like a fly. It's also consistent with the ending speech she gives:

"- As for my unlikely allies, I think that I shall allow them a reprieve.- For in time I will seek to test their resolve, and their strengths."

She could go demolish Mengsk right now. But she doesn't want to because she feels that his power has been sufficiently crippled for her to toy with him. Given that you don't accept any forms of evidence that include military/reputation defeats, then you have to accept Kerrigan's word, which was consistent all game.

Neither do salvage dumps, which is where Kerrigan claimed Mengsk must have found his miraculous fleet. It's the armament that was a surprise, not the people.

Great, so if Mengsk is too poor to buy armaments, why do you insist he's recovered? You haven't provided a shred of evidence that he recovered anything.

Um, no? How is saying that Mengsk is still stronger than the other Terrans "conceding that the fleet doesn't belong to the Dominion"? This isn't complicated, Mengsk had to buy himself a new fleet, fast. He did so, using his authority and influence as the most powerful Terran in the Sector.

That makes no sense. The guy having to beg other people for money is not the strongest man in the sector. There are people who have armaments, and he is not one of those people. He is at the bottom of the barrel. Only his reputation saved him, and people would be stupid to put faith in him again for WoL.

It would have been pretty bad for Kerrigan if they killed her, I feel. Back then she couldn't endlessly reincarnate.

Kerrigan isn't there. The last mission showed her on the surface of Char with the bulk of her broods. Since the bulk of her broods are still on Char during Omega, then so is she. That's why she said "you'll need to hold off the invaders by yourself."

She might have lost the platform, which would have been annoying, but then the rest of her broods would have returned and cleaned up the mess.

[ragnarok]

Right, it's subjective, but that only gets you so far. You can't keep ignoring consistent military defeats and relegating one of the richest factions in the game to mediocrity. Let me remind you of their manual description:



And these guys can't be a threat to Mengsk, who just got repeatedly demolished. Why? o.o

That's the problem Blizzard made with the KMC. With the exception of Heaven's Devils in the Guild Wars, they mostly just don't play ANY role. Even the Umojans played better.

That makes no sense. The guy having to beg other people for money is not the strongest man in the sector. There are people who have armaments, and he is not one of those people. He is at the bottom of the barrel. Only his reputation saved him, and people would be stupid to put faith in him again for WoL.

Answer me something, Gradius: if you were faced with total annihilation, how many times would you put your faith in a leader before you begin turning to alternatives?

[Turalyon]

In the interests of keeping this manageable for FT and to avoid repetitions, I'll try and refrain from responding after this post (FT can help by not responding so much too, of course ). I think I've sussed out FT's position in an earlier post and it pretty much boils down to the fact that the Terrans in general (not specifically Mengsk) have always been treated as the massive underdog in all respects and the inherent conceit of them as a faction in Sc1 is that they yet are still able to become a thorn in anyone's side despite it. It's this absurdity that he's remarking on when discussing how it's consistent across the installments so far.

While this position has merit and is dependent on having some necessary degree of willing suspension of disbelief, I think the argument is about how the game itself conveys and invites us to have willing suspension of disbelief. That's what all this pedantic argument from us (Telenil, Gradius and I) is all about. FT thinks that we already should have had this willing suspension of disbelief already having followed Sc from the start and that there are many other cases where suspension of disbelief is all we have to rely on and accept, like for instance, Raynor coming back and the Protoss, too without nary an explanation. Unlike those examples (of course, this argument really has greater relevance on discussing how WoL's focus on Raynor is unjustified as well but that has been discussed elsewhere), we are actually invited to ponder how Mengsk comesback in BW and we are given clues to provide/help sell suspension of disbelief, not just to rely on one's capacity to swallow anything that is given to them. I think that this is what all the criticism about Sc2 in general seems circle around, too. It's all about world-building and a sense of verisimilitude.

With that out of the way, back to FT's responses (keep the above in mind whilst reading/replying):

Yeah, but just because some of the narrative in StarCraft gets retconned doesn't mean that the parts which aren't retconned should have been retconned... that way lies madness.

Also, if you want to argue that we can't trust any of the text of any of the games because some of it gets retconned, what are we even arguing about? :P.

You're right. This is the problem of providing "evidence" in this particular case. It's still circumstantial and anecdotal no matter how you slice it. I was making such a comment in regards to the unreliability of using that as evidence when it can be cherry-picked to serve any argument.

Yes, but in Brood War, those are comebacks from successive defeats in the span of a single month. If he can achieve all that within just weeks, are you really telling me that what he achieved in the five years leading to Wings of Liberty is that incredible? He negotiated himself an Omega fleet in days!

The key word is "defeats". They imply a cost, a setback of some sort. His comebacks are with those costs/setbacks in mind. In terms of durability, there are so many setbacks one can take as well. And yes, what he achieves is incredible (not impossible) because of that.

Well, I agree that all non-Zerg are effed by the end of Brood War, but that's more a problem of the Zerg being retconned to infinite power rather than the other factions being weakened to irrelevance. The end of Brood War doesn't make it look like they're going to be irrelevant when dealing with non-infinitely powerful Zerg factions, is what I meant. Brood War itself promised a sequel through Dark Origins and Kerrigan's feeling that a great threat loomed over the horizon and that her victory was hollow and there were trials yet to come. That's why the epilogue has every faction rebuilding, so that they could be relevant again when the sequel came. I felt that intention was pretty clear, but maybe I'm wrong.

You're right here, all of these things do point to a sequel but that's quite a cynical/mechanical take on things especially if we are looking at it in terms of the perspective of what is the "natural flow" of that universe. The characters don't know there's going to be a sequel, for instance. I can only speak for myself in this matter, but I never thought of BW as solely to push a sequel, much like how I viewed Sc1 was solely to push BW or Sc2. I took those things you mentioned as being something interestin" but never really gave them any weight/serious thought beyond the superficial message that the universe is larger than we expected and unknowable. They weren't relevant to the story at hand, which really ended and culminated with the Zerg in an unassailable position. I never fully expected a sequel or felt the need for one at the time.

Because Brood War didn't establish anyone who could take his place. Having him replaced off-screen by someone we are informed is more competent is literally how we get to "characters" like Amon, and I can tell you absolutely that this forum would have howled at this if Blizzard had attempted it.

Besides, Mengsk is an interesting character. Or used to be, anyway.

I'm divided on this. BW introduces a plethora of new characters and they were largely accepted. At they least, I'm sure they provoked less ire than how the old characters were represented in Sc2. Public outcry has nothing to do with it either way.

Mengsk "used to be interesting" is a very telling sign. Blizzard outrightly agrees with this and it shows it's beginnings in BW. It's why they try to introduce Valerian but comes across as hackneyed for those not in the know. In hindsight, with the way Mengsk is represented in Sc2, they would've been better off having/building a new Terran villain to fight instead. Besides, I wasn't advocating Mengsk's complete removal in Sc2, just to be in a position that at least reflected/acknowledged some of the blows he took. I mentioned that BW had a reprieve before the Zerg overpoweredness retcon when into full swing, that would have been enough.

However, I don't think Brood War ended with Mengsk becoming irrelevant.

How do you see Mengsk's situation at the end of BW then given his defeats? I'm not talking about keeping narrative consistency like "he just does because he did before".

I don't think I understood your question.

If you find Raynor's comeback in Sc1 insane, how do you reconcile the fact that Raynor is still around to cause so much trouble in Sc2? You can say "well, it's consistent" but that doesn't explain how it is physically possible for him to still be there.

I don't see why losing in Omega would tarnish his reputation. Hell, after that battle the Zerg didn't show up again for five years. That's got to be great for the old propaganda mill, no? But even if people somehow knew it was a defeat, so what? The Zerg have destroyed every other force ever sent against them. They consumed the Confederacy, they annihilated the Protoss... why would they think Mengsk is expected to win, and why would they think that the internal strife of a revolution is a wise move at this point?

We can't use what happens in WoL to retroactively determine what was going to happen at the time.

"They" expected Mengsk to win because that was one of the promises he made to get that fleet in the first place. He does not get any political gains by losing, which would be necessary given that the leadership of his government is in shambles. It won't be internal strife, it would be a power vacuum much like when the Confeds were removed. Someone else with more means and capability could've easily slipped in. Sure, we don't know who that could be but the opportunity was there. Otherwise, all we have is everything unnaturally bending itself to support a specific political party/position (Dominion) that was esssentially non-existent at the end of BW and one that didn't really prove itself before BW either.

I don't know about that. The Dominion is in ruins, but I'm pretty sure it's still his, even at that point. Possibly, those concessions were things he had to give to make sure his Dominion didn't fall apart. We don't really have enough info to tell.

We don't even know if the political entity known as "The Dominion" even exists at this point. Given that Raynor only rescued Mengsk, the rest of his administration making up his Dominion would've been rounded up by the UED and executed most likely.

Everyone refers to it as being his fleet. If you want to assert that it's not, you have to provide the evidence.

What else did you think I meant? I should have said "fleet" but the point stands. A general's army is always known for being "his/hers", doesn't mean it's his personally. You can hire mercenaries but they are not technically yours nor do they represent or espouse your interests.

True, but by the reckoning of Mengsk recoveries, it's been a long time since he took that beating. This would be the narrative equivalent of a shout-out.

Ahh, that troublesome "5 years as explanation for everything" notion. It is not a justifiable explanation on it's own because literally anything and everything can have that same explanation (ie: God came down and gave every living thing in existence an experience of paradise but then grew tired and turned everything back to the way it and left us because 5 years occurred and it just happened).

I don't think Mengsk bought his fleet from a single person.

I was trying to simplify my argument by using a neutral analogy.

Why?

Why what? Cause and effect, that's why.

I don't think Korhal would have been a Sons of Korhal base... that would be the first place the Confederacy would have looked for them. Remember that the Sons of Korhal couldn't operate openly. And if you think Confederate troops survived the fall of Tarsonis, why do you think Dominion troops didn't survive the fall of Korhal?

The Confeds were pretty complacent about the Zerg and they (as others and the EU seem to intimate) knew about them a long time before they came to the K sector, I can understand why they wouldn't want to bother looking at world they torched long ago for the small fry that is the SoK given that there are other pirate militias around.

As to the surviving troops on Korhal, they would have been pressed into UED service, scattered to other Terran affiliation, disbanded or formed a non-effectual Pro-Dominion force (the UED and Confeds still have them afterall - and they have remained powerless all throughout).

Anyway, the question isn't about how fast Mengsk rebuilt Korhal. It's about whether this speed is implausible by the standards set by the series thus far.

Granted that the speed of Terran recovery is standardised to be "impossibly fast", this doesn't qualify why it has to be Mengsk and the Dominion specifically to be granted such power. Why are they so special? Why not someone else?

[FanaticTemplar]

I'm going to try to group your replies by subject to make life easier on me, instead of just replying to everything as it comes. Sorry if it's a bit confusing.

The Wings of Liberty Recovery

Right, it's subjective, but that only gets you so far. You can't keep ignoring consistent military defeats [...]

The key word is "defeats". They imply a cost, a setback of some sort. His comebacks are with those costs/setbacks in mind. In terms of durability, there are so many setbacks one can take as well. And yes, what he achieves is incredible (not impossible) because of that.

But you're fine with ignoring military defeats until Omega since you don't consider that to be a recovery. So why would Omega be the final straw? Evidently, Omega is the least damning of all his defeats, it's part of an army lost in the field, without any significant repercussions. He hasn't lost any resources or infrastructure or political support from this. This is more on the scale of Duke getting kicked around on Char in StarCraft, and you'll note that I've never considered that to be a defeat worth recovering from.

I guess I think it's a really obvious conclusion. And yes, I do have evidence. The Dominion is militarily bankrupt, while other people are left with assets that Mengsk has to bribe them for.

We know for a fact that you're wrong. Mengsk still possesses the remains of his endgame fleet, which even after his loss is multiple Battlecruisers strong. Not only have you not demonstrated that any Terran can do better, you've steadfastly refused to accept that Mengsk acquired that fleet in only a few days, at no apparent significant cost. Someone who can raise an army that powerful in that little time is not someone I would call "militarily bankrupt".

Yeah, that's still not evidence of a recovery.

You've not provided any evidence of an incredible recovery in Wings of Liberty, either. So that game's still consistent with Brood War.

If you find Raynor's comeback in Sc1 insane, how do you reconcile the fact that Raynor is still around to cause so much trouble in Sc2? You can say "well, it's consistent" but that doesn't explain how it is physically possible for him to still be there.

I still don't understand. Raynor doesn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers at his beck and call in StarCraft II. He's clearly weaker. Honestly, I think those Battlecruisers are just story/gameplay segregation. In the story, Raynor probably didn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers on Aiur.

Granted that the speed of Terran recovery is standardised to be "impossibly fast", this doesn't qualify why it has to be Mengsk and the Dominion specifically to be granted such power. Why are they so special? Why not someone else?

I know you're asking for an in-universe explanation, but in-universe there is no more reason for him to stay the Terran leader as there is for him not to. But the simple fact is that nobody has been established who can replace him, so you can't really do that narratively. Then again, I'm obviously wrong since they deposed the Judicator Caste and instated the Hierarchy between games, so they totally could have done that. But even then they kept an established character as the faction leader.

Okay, let's try this. The Confederacy ignored the Zerg and allowed them to rampage unchecked over their Fringe Worlds until it bit them in the arse. The Kel-Morian Combine ignores everything that's going on and tries to make money in the hope that someone else will make sure there's still a world to spend that money in. The Umojans are complete isolationists and aren't interested in fighting the Zerg except in absolute self-defence, and worse, they want to reach out to the Protoss and consort with them. Mengsk, meanwhile, is fighting the Zerg. The fact that he doesn't always win is a ridiculous reason to depose him, that'll just make sure his successor doesn't fight the Zerg either, since you can't lose if you don't fight. What's more, Mengsk is the only one to have apparent victories over the Zerg. He chased the Zerg off Korhal, he fought the Swarm over Char and they didn't show up again for years. That's a better track record than any other human out there. Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?

The Subtext of the end of Brood War

You're right here, all of these things do point to a sequel but that's quite a cynical/mechanical take on things especially if we are looking at it in terms of the perspective of what is the "natural flow" of that universe. The characters don't know there's going to be a sequel, for instance. I can only speak for myself in this matter, but I never thought of BW as solely to push a sequel, much like how I viewed Sc1 was solely to push BW or Sc2. I took those things you mentioned as being something interestin" but never really gave them any weight/serious thought beyond the superficial message that the universe is larger than we expected and unknowable. They weren't relevant to the story at hand, which really ended and culminated with the Zerg in an unassailable position. I never fully expected a sequel or felt the need for one at the time.

Yeah, but it isn't a question of how the characters interpret the situation, it's a question of how the audience interprets the situation. You said that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty was problematic for you because of the clear subtext of Mengsk's position at the end of Brood War. But I'm showing that the subtext would rather seem to indicate that the Dominion would be rebuilt for the sequel.

Ahh, that troublesome "5 years as explanation for everything" notion. It is not a justifiable explanation on it's own because literally anything and everything can have that same explanation (ie: God came down and gave every living thing in existence an experience of paradise but then grew tired and turned everything back to the way it and left us because 5 years occurred and it just happened).

No, the point is that why would it be brought up, except as a blatant shout-out? It's like when Raynor mentions Fenix in Heart of the Swarm - I hated it because it was clearly inserted only because fans complained for years that "Raynor has forgotten about Fenix". It's immersion breaking. Wings of Liberty occurs after the rebuilding has occurred, with an established period of time for it to occur in. This is not like when Mengsk ends one mission abandoned in the ashes of his capitol world and appears again four missions later at the head of a massive fleet, that demands an explanation. The five-years explanation is the explanation, and I find it a lot less ridiculous as far as explanations go than "yeah, I talked to some people" which is what he gives in Omega.

How do you see Mengsk's situation at the end of BW then given his defeats? I'm not talking about keeping narrative consistency like "he just does because he did before".

Honestly, I don't understand how you three can view Mengsk buying himself a new fleet in days off of favours and concessions as a sign of his weakness. Money has no allegiance, anyone can buy an army if they have enough money. But buying an army with favours and promises? It's the most stupendous display of power I've seen from Arcturus Mengsk in any game. Now, obviously I don't think he got his fleet off promises alone, those factors probably just allowed him to get them fast and cheap, but still.

The epilogue is quite clear that Mengsk got his arse handed to him by Kerrigan. How do I see Mengsk's situation? Well, he's been beaten bad and needs to recover. But I never got the impression that he wasn't the most powerful Terran in the Sector. The thing with the epilogue is that it establishes Kerrigan's absolute dominance - everyone got their arses handed to them. Mengsk is weak, relative to what he was earlier and relative to Kerrigan, but not relative to any other Terran. That's how I see it.

Other Terran Factions by the end of Brood War

and relegating one of the richest factions in the game to mediocrity. Let me remind you of their manual description:

And these guys can't be a threat to Mengsk, who just got repeatedly demolished. Why? o.o

I'm ignoring the Kel-Morian Combine because the game ignores them. If they were going to be a threat to Mengsk, they would have been established as such. But they're not. They only appear as a convenient source of pillage for Kerrigan before she moves on to something more important... invading Korhal. That should tell you something right there: the capitol world of the Kel-Morian Combine is such a non-threat that invading it actually bolsters her strength, strength which she will need to invade the capitol world of the Dominion which, at this point, has already been invaded and had its defences breached.

If you want to go the "covert mission" route (with stealthy Ultralisks and a chunk of the population infested and shipped off to die elsewhere) then there's again another comparison to Korhal: Media Blitz. Horner had to call in every favor he had to smuggle in some Terrans and Terran materiel on a Terran planet. How did Kerrigan sneak a Protoss Dragoon and a brood of Zerg (including Ultralisks!) onto the Kel-Morian capitol? If you're going this route, it still shows the Kel-Morians not being very dangerous.

When the UED invaded, the Kel-Morians rolled over and surrendered immediately. That doesn't promise much about their combative aptitudes that they weren't even willing to try to defend their sovereignty.

Nothing about the Kel-Morian Combine suggests that they're capable of overthrowing Mengsk.

I'm not sure where you're getting those WoL planet numbers from, but the core worlds were originally thirteen planets ruled over by the Terran Confederacy. It stands to reason that the other two terran factions (Moria and Umoja) helped in rebuilding the Dominion after the Confederacy's downfall, making it much more realistic. But this also means that we have to give them credit for being more powerful than the Dominion (which is assumed to consist of former Confederate planets).

Actually, I can't find the source for that claim about the Confederate core worlds. The prologue to Overmind says thirteen Terran worlds, not Confederate. And the manual says that the Confederacy colonised seven other worlds, and that it was this that gave it superiority over the other two factions (suggesting that they were not colonial in nature), leaving three planets unaccounted for. Perhaps the distinction between "Core" and "Fringe" Worlds derives from there then, Tarsonis and those other seven planets are the "Core worlds" and the missing three planets are the "Fringe worlds", colonised after the Guild Wars. Or maybe the other three are worlds that nominally belong to the Kel-Morian Combine - while Umoja is never described as having any interest in other worlds, and sounds like it was isolationist, the Kel-Morian Combine did have numerous guilds that operated on other worlds, though most were annexed into Confederate holdings after the Guild Wars.

Whatever the case, that does not address the fact that the Wings of Liberty Dominion was built on only one fewer planets but around eight times more time than the one the UED found so important in Brood War, and that seems to be quite credible, relatively speaking.

The Omega Recovery

Whether it's technically "his" or not after he bought it with favors is completely irrelevant. The fact that he has to beg for it is proof that the Dominion is militarily bankrupt. This is proof that there was no Dominion recovery made.

It would be a recovery if he magically showed up with a new fleet from the Dominion. The fact that he had to bribe people to give him what he needs nullifies the notion of a recovery.

That makes no sense. The guy having to beg other people for money is not the strongest man in the sector. There are people who have armaments, and he is not one of those people. He is at the bottom of the barrel. Only his reputation saved him, and people would be stupid to put faith in him again for WoL.

What else did you think I meant? I should have said "fleet" but the point stands. A general's army is always known for being "his/hers", doesn't mean it's his personally. You can hire mercenaries but they are not technically yours nor do they represent or espouse your interests.

Look, I know you're getting desperate, but there is never any indication that Mengsk had to beg. There is never any indication that the fleet is not a Dominion fleet or doesn't belong to Mengsk. And the notion that it doesn't count as a recovery if he has to pay for his fleet (really?) makes no sense. The reality of the situation is that Mengsk went from being abandoned on a devastated Korhal to commanding one of the most powerful fleets in the Sector in days. That is an incredible recovery.

Even if I were to accept the ridiculous notion that having to give something in exchange for being given a fleet is "begging" (do you realise that politicians make concessions all the time, and usually for far less than an endgame fleet?) the fact that he could "beg" himself an endgame fleet still demonstrates that he was the most powerful Terran in the Sector. Because I can beg (or even "beg") all I want, nobody's going to give me one of the most powerful fleets on the planet.

"They" expected Mengsk to win because that was one of the promises he made to get that fleet in the first place.

Can you demonstrate that? Clearly, he was going to use that fleet to fight Kerrigan, but do you have any evidence that they expected him to win rather than hoped for him to win? Either way, forcing Kerrigan to retreat to Char for the next few years would still come off as a victory, wouldn't it?

Great, so if Mengsk is too poor to buy armaments, why do you insist he's recovered? You haven't provided a shred of evidence that he recovered anything.

"Too poor to buy armaments"? He has bought them already. He has them now. He's trying to kill Kerrigan with those very armaments. The purchase is a fait accompli. The evidence is incontrovertible that he isn't too poor to buy armaments.

We don't even know if the political entity known as "The Dominion" even exists at this point. Given that Raynor only rescued Mengsk, the rest of his administration making up his Dominion would've been rounded up by the UED and executed most likely.

The victory screen for Omega identifies the red Terran as "Terran Dominion". Not my preferred source, but generally pretty accurate. Should be sufficient unless you have a reason it wouldn't be.

At no point did she promise she wouldn't let him recover.

"Oh, come on, Arcturus. Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"

COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC

It's why they try to introduce Valerian but comes across as hackneyed for those not in the know.

I'm actually avoiding this part of your reply because I'm afraid it will veer into a completely different discussion (about Mengsk as a character) and I've got enough text to type already, so much like the issue of the Zerg's perpetual sustainability and recoverability I abandoned with Gradius earlier, I'll table this for some other time, but I do have to ask: what's wrong with Valerian? He and Tychus are my favourite new characters of Wings of Liberty. I'm actually making him the Point-of-View character in my Brood War fanficcy replacement .

[Turalyon]

Must resist replying...ah screw it.

But you're fine with ignoring military defeats until Omega since you don't consider that to be a recovery. So why would Omega be the final straw?

We haven't ignored his previous defeats. I have spoken previously that each of his comebacks is contextualised with the losses he incurs from the defeat prior to that comeback. He loses something in each defeat and comeback, with Omega being the latest one. He has nothing else aside from words to arrange the fleet he currently has at his disposal and he can't back them up.

He hasn't lost any resources or infrastructure or political support from this.

You have to keep in mind the continous ramifications of his previous defeats. He has none of this to give already and now has even less opportunity to be able to get such things with a defeat.

I still don't understand. Raynor doesn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers at his beck and call in StarCraft II. He's clearly weaker. Honestly, I think those Battlecruisers are just story/gameplay segregation. In the story, Raynor probably didn't have a fleet of Battlecruisers on Aiur.

And you blame us for concocting narratives to explain Mengsk's continued presence? Raynor is clearly powerful enough in WoL to pull of sorts of things and engage in battles with enemies many times larger and more powerful than his supposed single battlecruiser band in WoL. I'm not sure whether Blizz or the EU has officially said how large Raynor's force actually is but you seem prepared to call his presence in Sc1 absurd and then go on to try and explain his subsequent appearance in WoL as being weaker is because he lost there. Hmm, that sounds like the reasoning we're using for Mengsk's scenario...

I know you're asking for an in-universe explanation, but in-universe there is no more reason for him to stay the Terran leader as there is for him not to. But the simple fact is that nobody has been established who can replace him, so you can't really do that narratively. Then again, I'm obviously wrong since they deposed the Judicator Caste and instated the Hierarchy between games, so they totally could have done that. But even then they kept an established character as the faction leader.

One just has to look at the nature of Terran dynamics to answer that question for yourself. In that type of world, do you think that Mengsk is the only unique individual to be able to do all these things? The character is great but things shouldn't bend in favour of him if it disrupts the natural flow of that universe. The very arguments the others and I have put forward are about the in-universe reasons for Mengsk not continuing/being able to be Terran leader.

I have no such qualms about someone replacing him. You can introduce any new character to do that easily (hell, if you wanted some familiarity, go for Valerian), build them up and backfill as necessary since that happens all the time. The Terrans have more depth than just Mengsk/ Dominion and Blizz concede that his story was pretty much finished since Sc1. If BW goes on to show his downfall, why is he back again in Sc2? Heck why doesn't he just survive the head explosion Kerrigan gave him in HotS and comeback in LotV to become a pain in everyone's arse since it is "consist" with his previous portrayals?

Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?

It's not about what I want. It's about understanding that the universe doesn't revolve around Mengsk and that there is some illusion of depth. It doesn't have be the Umojan, KMC or some other generic Terran group specifically even though that could've helped expand and include them. It could've easily been another political rival within the remnants of the Dominion that acknowledges that Mengsk is weak and goes about preventing him from rising again. It could be anything really. It can't be Mengsk because BW systematically shows him as a failure and an incompetent at every turn.

Yeah, but it isn't a question of how the characters interpret the situation, it's a question of how the audience interprets the situation. You said that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty was problematic for you because of the clear subtext of Mengsk's position at the end of Brood War. But I'm showing that the subtext would rather seem to indicate that the Dominion would be rebuilt for the sequel.

I'm not talking about character interpretations either. I am talking about the audience interpretation and I think it's somewhat dependent on what perspective you take. I don't interpret the situation as the writers gunning for a sequel (in some sense I do, but that's a very cynical take on things) but more to do with the writer was trying to convey at the moment they wrote the thing. When I read that epilogue of Mengsk going back to rebuild the Dominion, I didn't take that as omniscient fact, I pretty much thought, "Yeah, good luck with that Mengsk, you're gonna need it!"

Wings of Liberty occurs after the rebuilding has occurred, with an established period of time for it to occur in. This is not like when Mengsk ends one mission abandoned in the ashes of his capitol world and appears again four missions later at the head of a massive fleet, that demands an explanation. The five-years explanation is the explanation, and I find it a lot less ridiculous as far as explanations go than "yeah, I talked to some people" which is what he gives in Omega.

Given that the contention lies first in Mengsk's actual ability to even put his house in order and the lack of perceived consequence, stating the 5 years reasoning being Ok is putting the cart ahead of the horse.

As to the "I talked to some people" reason Mengsk gives, did you really expect him to spout a long-winded monologue to show how he painstakingly got that fleet together? Would you even believe him based on what his history of truth manipulation. I've cited his ability to turn Duke on a dime with just words (I'm sure Duke could have just rejected Mengsk's offer and waited for the rest of his Alpha squadron to come pick him up) as being one abilities but since this is all he has and relies on to get the fleet in Omega (keeping in mind all the losses he had taken previously), it makes sense that it just all boils down to "I talked to some people".

Honestly, I don't understand how you three can view Mengsk buying himself a new fleet in days off of favours and concessions as a sign of his weakness. Money has no allegiance, anyone can buy an army if they have enough money. But buying an army with favours and promises? It's the most stupendous display of power I've seen from Arcturus Mengsk in any game. Now, obviously I don't think he got his fleet off promises alone, those factors probably just allowed him to get them fast and cheap, but still.

With his Dominion in "ashes" with what can he physically barter with except for what he has plenty of and used effectively before in empty words and promises?

Mengsk is weak, relative to what he was earlier and relative to Kerrigan, but not relative to any other Terran.

This does not compute. Mengsk is weaker relative to what he was earlier but also not relative to other Terrans. That's a mighty specific claim. Given that Mengsk only had a nascent government to begin with, if he's been setback relative to what he was then, that makes him vulnerable to other Terrans who didn't suffer as much as he did. Afterall, the SoK were a small pirate group (compared to the likes of the Umojans and KMC) that took over everything, what's stopping such a thing from occurring if Mengsk has been weakened relative to what he was before? How can you be sure it wasn't hurt bad enough to stop scavengers from coming in? Because we didn't hear anything of and about them? That's a weak justification.

Can you demonstrate that? Clearly, he was going to use that fleet to fight Kerrigan, but do you have any evidence that they expected him to win rather than hoped for him to win? Either way, forcing Kerrigan to retreat to Char for the next few years would still come off as a victory, wouldn't it?

Whatever, they wanted him to win against the Zerg because he says he can beat them if they give him a fleet. He loses the fleet and thereby loses face to those that gave him the fleet as well as being in debt to them.

Kerrigan happening to not do anything at all is a fanciful notion that is only made apparent because the writers arbitrarily stated so to keep the story continuing. Neither parties would have realised at the time that they actually won when they lost in Omega.

The victory screen for Omega identifies the red Terran as "Terran Dominion". Not my preferred source, but generally pretty accurate. Should be sufficient unless you have a reason it wouldn't be.

Sure, Mengsk literally is the embodiment of the "Dominion" but it exists solely in him hence the victory screen title but an empire cannot run on it own with there just being an emperor and nothing else.

what's wrong with Valerian? He and Tychus are my favourite new characters of Wings of Liberty. I'm actually making him the Point-of-View character in my Brood War fanficcy replacement .

Nothing's wrong with Valerian as a character per se. He's also one of the new elements I like. It's just that his introduction was a bit stupid (he risked getting killed just to make a grande introduction/entrance?) and there wasn't enough done with his character beyond being an expository mouthpiece and a cog in the machine known as "plot".

[FanaticTemplar]

We haven't ignored his previous defeats. I have spoken previously that each of his comebacks is contextualised with the losses he incurs from the defeat prior to that comeback. He loses something in each defeat and comeback, with Omega being the latest one. He has nothing else aside from words to arrange the fleet he currently has at his disposal and he can't back them up.

No he doesn't. He's clearly better off after Omega than he was after True Colors. And he's a lot better off before Omega than after True Colors.

Omega is not a significant defeat in any sense, which is why you have to reach for hypotheticals to make it so and excuses to explain the fact that he shows up at all. Fact is, if he was ever in an irrecoverable position in Brood War, it was after True Colors. If we hadn't seen Mengsk after that, then your position that he could not credibly make his return would be much stronger. But he does show up again, and he shows up strong. Omega doesn't demonstrate that Mengsk is in an irrecoverable position, it demonstrates that he's still top dog among the Koprulu Terrans.

You have to keep in mind the continous ramifications of his previous defeats. He has none of this to give already and now has even less opportunity to be able to get such things with a defeat.

Yes he does, otherwise he wouldn't have a massive endgame fleet.

And you blame us for concocting narratives to explain Mengsk's continued presence? Raynor is clearly powerful enough in WoL to pull of sorts of things and engage in battles with enemies many times larger and more powerful than his supposed single battlecruiser band in WoL. I'm not sure whether Blizz or the EU has officially said how large Raynor's force actually is but you seem prepared to call his presence in Sc1 absurd and then go on to try and explain his subsequent appearance in WoL as being weaker is because he lost there. Hmm, that sounds like the reasoning we're using for Mengsk's scenario...

I still have no idea what you're talking about. I didn't say he was weaker because he lost on Aiur (not least because I usually forget that that battle was retconned into a defeat and would probably have claimed that Raynor won on Aiur) I said he was weaker because he was probably never really that strong. They wanted you to be able to use Battlecruisers in the final mission.

But even so, I don't understand your argument. Raynor is weaker in Wings of Liberty than he was at the end of StarCraft and that demonstrates an improbable recovery? Aren't you complaing about Mengsk because he's stronger than he was at the end of Brood War?

One just has to look at the nature of Terran dynamics to answer that question for yourself. In that type of world, do you think that Mengsk is the only unique individual to be able to do all these things? The character is great but things shouldn't bend in favour of him if it disrupts the natural flow of that universe. The very arguments the others and I have put forward are about the in-universe reasons for Mengsk not continuing/being able to be Terran leader.

I have no such qualms about someone replacing him. You can introduce any new character to do that easily (hell, if you wanted some familiarity, go for Valerian), build them up and backfill as necessary since that happens all the time. The Terrans have more depth than just Mengsk/ Dominion and Blizz concede that his story was pretty much finished since Sc1. If BW goes on to show his downfall, why is he back again in Sc2? Heck why doesn't he just survive the head explosion Kerrigan gave him in HotS and comeback in LotV to become a pain in everyone's arse since it is "consist" with his previous portrayals?

It's not about what I want. It's about understanding that the universe doesn't revolve around Mengsk and that there is some illusion of depth. It doesn't have be the Umojan, KMC or some other generic Terran group specifically even though that could've helped expand and include them. It could've easily been another political rival within the remnants of the Dominion that acknowledges that Mengsk is weak and goes about preventing him from rising again. It could be anything really. It can't be Mengsk because BW systematically shows him as a failure and an incompetent at every turn.

I think you skipped over an important part:

Okay, let's try this. The Confederacy ignored the Zerg and allowed them to rampage unchecked over their Fringe Worlds until it bit them in the arse. The Kel-Morian Combine ignores everything that's going on and tries to make money in the hope that someone else will make sure there's still a world to spend that money in. The Umojans are complete isolationists and aren't interested in fighting the Zerg except in absolute self-defence, and worse, they want to reach out to the Protoss and consort with them. Mengsk, meanwhile, is fighting the Zerg. The fact that he doesn't always win is a ridiculous reason to depose him, that'll just make sure his successor doesn't fight the Zerg either, since you can't lose if you don't fight. What's more, Mengsk is the only one to have apparent victories over the Zerg. He chased the Zerg off Korhal, he fought the Swarm over Char and they didn't show up again for years. That's a better track record than any other human out there. Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?

I'm not talking about character interpretations either. I am talking about the audience interpretation and I think it's somewhat dependent on what perspective you take. I don't interpret the situation as the writers gunning for a sequel (in some sense I do, but that's a very cynical take on things) but more to do with the writer was trying to convey at the moment they wrote the thing. When I read that epilogue of Mengsk going back to rebuild the Dominion, I didn't take that as omniscient fact, I pretty much thought, "Yeah, good luck with that Mengsk, you're gonna need it!"

Well, I didn't. And I turned out to be right. But no, they were clearly going for a sequel. That "bonus mission" stuff is nothing but sequel bait.

As to the "I talked to some people" reason Mengsk gives, did you really expect him to spout a long-winded monologue to show how he painstakingly got that fleet together? Would you even believe him based on what his history of truth manipulation. I've cited his ability to turn Duke on a dime with just words (I'm sure Duke could have just rejected Mengsk's offer and waited for the rest of his Alpha squadron to come pick him up) as being one abilities but since this is all he has and relies on to get the fleet in Omega (keeping in mind all the losses he had taken previously), it makes sense that it just all boils down to "I talked to some people".

You three are the ones attaching undue importance to Mengsk's words here, saying things like "he had nothing left but empty words and promises". I'm just trying to be nice and argue on your own terms. Of course you're wrong, you don't need to convince me of that.

With his Dominion in "ashes" with what can he physically barter with except for what he has plenty of and used effectively before in empty words and promises?

This does not compute. Mengsk is weaker relative to what he was earlier but also not relative to other Terrans. That's a mighty specific claim. Given that Mengsk only had a nascent government to begin with, if he's been setback relative to what he was then, that makes him vulnerable to other Terrans who didn't suffer as much as he did. Afterall, the SoK were a small pirate group (compared to the likes of the Umojans and KMC) that took over everything, what's stopping such a thing from occurring if Mengsk has been weakened relative to what he was before? How can you be sure it wasn't hurt bad enough to stop scavengers from coming in? Because we didn't hear anything of and about them? That's a weak justification.

The only Terran world that we see get destroyed in Brood War is Korhal. So if you're going to say that the Dominion is ashes, you've got to assume that unmentioned worlds were also devastated. But then you turn your standard on its head for the other Terran factions and assume that unmentioned worlds are fine.

Also, I'm sure it wasn't hurt bad enough to stop scavengers from coming in because that's what Wings of Liberty shows us. If you want to claim that there's a contradiction there, you're the one that needs to demonstrate it.

Whatever, they wanted him to win against the Zerg because he says he can beat them if they give him a fleet. He loses the fleet and thereby loses face to those that gave him the fleet as well as being in debt to them.

He still has part of the fleet. Are you saying he lost face because he didn't eradicate the Zerg without suffering any casualties?

Kerrigan happening to not do anything at all is a fanciful notion that is only made apparent because the writers arbitrarily stated so to keep the story continuing. Neither parties would have realised at the time that they actually won when they lost in Omega.

They don't need to.

Sure, Mengsk literally is the embodiment of the "Dominion" but it exists solely in him hence the victory screen title but an empire cannot run on it own with there just being an emperor and nothing else.

You're just making stuff up because you're unwilling to admit that Mengsk got himself a fleet in days for Omega. It was his fleet. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't "have to beg" for it, and it was a Dominion fleet. There is no reason to deny what the game makes clear other than that it pokes a gaping hole in your position. Give me any reason to believe it wasn't a Dominion fleet, despite the game saying it is.

[Gradius]

He chased the Zerg off Korhal, he fought the Swarm over Char and they didn't show up again for years. That's a better track record than any other human out there. Considering, why wouldn't you want Mengsk as head of the Dominion?

By that logic, Moria repelled a zerg attack on their homeworld and suffered no other losses. Why wouldn't the average citizen go with them, instead of Mengsk who kept getting crushed like a cracker over soup?

But you're fine with ignoring military defeats until Omega since you don't consider that to be a recovery.

You haven't proven that it is.

So why would Omega be the final straw? Evidently, Omega is the least damning of all his defeats, it's part of an army lost in the field, without any significant repercussions. He hasn't lost any resources or infrastructure or political support from this. This is more on the scale of Duke getting kicked around on Char in StarCraft, and you'll note that I've never considered that to be a defeat worth recovering from.

Duke didn't exhaust all of the Dominion's assets in previous battles and have to call in favors/concessions to fund his expedition to Char.

We know for a fact that you're wrong. Mengsk still possesses the remains of his endgame fleet, which even after his loss is multiple Battlecruisers strong.

What are you referring to here? The fact that he left Omega with his life?

Not only have you not demonstrated that any Terran can do better

The Kel-Morians can.

you've steadfastly refused to accept that Mengsk acquired that fleet in only a few days, at no apparent significant cost. Someone who can raise an army that powerful in that little time is not someone I would call "militarily bankrupt".

That's like saying that just because I'm homeless, jobless and in debt, but asked the bank for $800,000 to buy a new house, I'm not actually poor.

"Hey, check out my new car guys! I got it free! All they do is just make you sign a bunch of stuff!"

You've not provided any evidence of an incredible recovery in Wings of Liberty, either. So that game's still consistent with Brood War.

"*spends trillions of credits on Raynor
*spends lavish amount of money beautifying Korhal
*builds extravagant weapons like the Odin and unveils a new battlecruiser every week

Even the WoL CD intro says "Meanwhile, the Dominion has grown in power and extended its influence throughout the Koprulu sector." This is the same as saying that it's vying with the other factions for power and winning."

I could keep going. There were no orbital defenses in BW. There was no secret Hybrid Lab in BW that was almost as well defended as Augustgrad. There was no psi destroyer in BW. etc. etc.

I'm ignoring the Kel-Morian Combine because the game ignores them. If they were going to be a threat to Mengsk, they would have been established as such. But they're not.

Well, that's not really a convincing argument. SC2 has been ignoring the UED. Does that mean they're not a threat?

They only appear as a convenient source of pillage for Kerrigan before she moves on to something more important... invading Korhal. That should tell you something right there: the capitol world of the Kel-Morian Combine is such a non-threat that invading it actually bolsters her strength, strength which she will need to invade the capitol world of the Dominion which, at this point, has already been invaded and had its defences breached.

Completely flawed comparison. I think we both know that Korhal was more important because it was controlled by...the UED and their slave broods. When it's just Mengsk and the Dominion, it only took Kerrigan one mission to destroy them all (not to mention their protoss allies as well). This still puts Moria above Korhal because Moria got an entire mission to themselves and was "just a raid".

If you want to go the "covert mission" route (with stealthy Ultralisks and a chunk of the population infested and shipped off to die elsewhere) then there's again another comparison to Korhal: Media Blitz. Horner had to call in every favor he had to smuggle in some Terrans and Terran materiel on a Terran planet. How did Kerrigan sneak a Protoss Dragoon and a brood of Zerg (including Ultralisks!) onto the Kel-Morian capitol? If you're going this route, it still shows the Kel-Morians not being very dangerous.

Ok, let's talk about Media Blitz. During this "raid" on Augustgrad, Raynor managed to bring down a Command Center, several Thors, and a giant army down to the surface of the planet. Very stealthy. If one guy and his battlecruiser of rebels can land a crippling blow by Augustgrad, it should be absolutely no problem for Kerrigan and the swarm to lay waste to it. But she can't. It's the toughest fight of her life, whereas before she could get it done in half a mission. Because Mengsk made a miraculous recovery in SC2/HoTS.

And nobody is disputing that Moria took a giant army with Ultralisks and infestation of Command Centers to complete. It was a large battle. But it was also a surprise attack to steal resources where they didn't have to face the full might of Kel-Moria, and that's why Fenix called it "covert".

When the UED invaded, the Kel-Morians rolled over and surrendered immediately. That doesn't promise much about their combative aptitudes that they weren't even willing to try to defend their sovereignty.

When the UED invaded, Kel-Moria was part of the Dominion, so you can't make that claim.

True, they went back to working for themselves after Mengsk got trashed, but that's the reasonable thing to do, and it's why Mengsk's recovery in WoL makes no sense.

Actually, I can't find the source for that claim about the Confederate core worlds.

In the Terran factions section of the manual.

"The Terran Confederacy consists of nearly a dozen planets within the Koprulu Sector."

Whatever the case, that does not address the fact that the Wings of Liberty Dominion was built on only one fewer planets but around eight times more time than the one the UED found so important in Brood War, and that seems to be quite credible, relatively speaking.

Except without the assistance of Moria and Umoja.

I don't recall ever getting planet numbers from WoL. What do you mean "one fewer planets"? The new planets they keep retconning into existence befuddles this whole issue IIRC.

Look, I know you're getting desperate, but there is never any indication that Mengsk had to beg. There is never any indication that the fleet is not a Dominion fleet or doesn't belong to Mengsk.

It's simple semantics. You don't make favors & concessions to order around a fleet that is yours.

And the notion that it doesn't count as a recovery if he has to pay for his fleet (really?) makes no sense.

Nobody is saying it's not impressive that he got a fleet. But all evidence points to the fact that his well has run dry. That's why Kerrigan asks him "how'd you manage to scrape up your new fleet? been raiding the salvage dumps again?"

The reality of the situation is that Mengsk went from being abandoned on a devastated Korhal to commanding one of the most powerful fleets in the Sector in days. That is an incredible recovery.

You have no evidence that it's a recovery. He goes from a shitty situation to a terrible situation after Omega. It's a consistent downgrade all the way through.

Even if I were to accept the ridiculous notion that having to give something in exchange for being given a fleet is "begging" (do you realise that politicians make concessions all the time, and usually for far less than an endgame fleet?) the fact that he could "beg" himself an endgame fleet still demonstrates that he was the most powerful Terran in the Sector. Because I can beg (or even "beg") all I want, nobody's going to give me one of the most powerful fleets on the planet.

Again, it's like if you borrowed a vast sum of money to purchase a house. Sure, if you beg, banks will give you money, but if you squander it (like Mengsk did at Omega), then your credit history is ruined and good luck getting another loan again!

"Too poor to buy armaments"? He has bought them already. He has them now. He's trying to kill Kerrigan with those very armaments. The purchase is a fait accompli. The evidence is incontrovertible that he isn't too poor to buy armaments.

If he could afford armaments, he wouldn't have to get them on credit (favors/concessions). His well has run out.

I can't afford a new Lamborghini Gallardo, but if I was desperate enough I could still buy one.

"Oh, come on, Arcturus. Did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again?"

That was obviously a response to: "Kerrigan, you murdering bitch! We had a deal!"

It takes an extremely liberal interpretation to read that as "Mengsk, you will never command a fleet again". I showed you that she states the opposite in the epilogue. She WILL let him recover because she wants to toy with him. However, that doesn't mean he can return to the power and prestige he once had. That's the entire point of your quote, and proof that his recovery in WoL is unbelievable.

I've said multiple times that evidence can be subjective, but you're the one claiming there is a contradiction in that he recovered way too much for Omega. So where's the contradiction? Why should I believe your plothole-inducing explanation over my perfectly consistent interpretation of events?

[Turalyon]

He's clearly better off after Omega than he was after True Colors.

To you perhaps. You haven't established exactly why beyond saying "he did it before". If he actually "bought" a fleet with what cash he could find/negotiate from the ashes of his Dominion only to have it all wasted as he did in Omega, you expect he could just find the cash again at any time later? He'd be back to square one amongst the ashes of his Dominion again - and vulnerable again.

Omega is not a significant defeat in any sense, which is why you have to reach for hypotheticals to make it so and excuses to explain the fact that he shows up at all.

Are you not making hypotheticals to support your base unfounded assumption that his recovery is nothing but absurd?

If we hadn't seen Mengsk after that, then your position that he could not credibly make his return would be much stronger.

Hold on, doesn't your argument hinge on all his comebacks as being absurd, like the one after he got rescued by Kerrigan? If you're saying that we don't hear from him after being trashed in True Colours is "ok", your above statement intimates that his previous comeback wasn't absurd. How does it follow that if that first comeback was not absurd if we don't see Mengsk after True Colours but then absurd when we follow it with the comeback in Omega? This muddies your reasoning behind Mengsk's established history of absurd comebacks as explanation for his reappearance in WoL.

Yes he does, otherwise he wouldn't have a massive endgame fleet.

You're saying this: "The fleet is evidence of his political clout because that's what he used to get the fleet". This reasoning is circular and is based off the assumption that he has remaining political clout which you have not established that he actually still has. We can say he has no political clout because it's quite clear that his Dominion (the source of his political clout) is in ashes. What do you have?

But even so, I don't understand your argument. Raynor is weaker in Wings of Liberty than he was at the end of StarCraft and that demonstrates an improbable recovery? Aren't you complaing about Mengsk because he's stronger than he was at the end of Brood War?

The contention is not that he's stronger, but that he's still there at all wielding the same amount of power (if not more) as if nothing happened.

I think you skipped over an important part

How so? I formulated that reply based on that hypothetical you gave. Mengsk is an individual first and foremost. Simply lumping a generalised attribute of the KMC and Umojans does not mean everything human there thinks like that. Even then, the source of upheaval may not even come from them since Mengsk came from an even smaller group (comparatively to the KMC and Umojans) called the Sons of Korhal which are all generally lumped as "Pirate militias".

You three are the ones attaching undue importance to Mengsk's words here, saying things like "he had nothing left but empty words and promises". I'm just trying to be nice and argue on your own terms. Of course you're wrong, you don't need to convince me of that.

I don't understand your reply here. You're asking us to explain our reasoning and then say we're doing it wrong? Sorry for not meeting your standards.

All I was trying to say was that the subtext for the possible disappearance of Mengsk/Dominion or at least a weak version of it mired with other opposition was more strongly hinted than that the Mengsk and the Dominion are invincible.

The only Terran world that we see get destroyed in Brood War is Korhal. So if you're going to say that the Dominion is ashes, you've got to assume that unmentioned worlds were also devastated. But then you turn your standard on its head for the other Terran factions and assume that unmentioned worlds are fine.

No we don't. The Dominion is an empire with it's centre (being of more import than most types of government) being at Korhal. All it takes to topple the empire is to topple the seat of power. Besides, the rest of the Terran worlds available to Mengsk were the Confederate ones and they were all pretty much destroyed already.

He still has part of the fleet. Are you saying he lost face because he didn't eradicate the Zerg without suffering any casualties?

An ineffectual remainder of a fleet. How do you know that Mengsk's suppliers won't seek an explanation for his losses and question his capacity to lead? What makes you think they are weaker than Mengsk and won't want to try and muscle in on the action? This is what I mean by losing face.

They don't need to.

Exactly. Such parties would think they lost at the time and, I for one, would be itching to know details and ask questions.

You're just making stuff up because you're unwilling to admit that Mengsk got himself a fleet in days for Omega. It was his fleet. He didn't "borrow" it, he didn't "have to beg" for it, and it was a Dominion fleet. There is no reason to deny what the game makes clear other than that it pokes a gaping hole in your position. Give me any reason to believe it wasn't a Dominion fleet, despite the game saying it is.

I never denied that he can obtain a fleet (he did that with Duke and all of Alpha Squadron afterall), I was trying to explain the naming convention as shown in the victory screen as being shaky evidence. It could been written for the sake of convenience and ease of parsing for all we know. Afterall, the game lists the PC cerebrates brood in Sc1 as Jormungand when we are not even Araq. And, if I'm not mistaken, BW also lists formerly eradicated broods in Garm appearing and also shows the brown cerebrate in command of the Grendel brood still being alive after being killed by Dark Templar in Sc1.