Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[Turalyon]

That's strictly gameplay.

That's easy, I can say the same for Mengsk's standing force in Omega as well then.

For someone who demands evidence, you have none to back such an assertion or that this is the assumption that the audience should take regarding the size Raynor's force in Eye of the Storm. Because Raynor can come up with a force, which we can plainly see, he therefore must not be weak as well.

The man the Protoss admire as a great warrior, is the most enduring thorn in the Terran Dominion's side, and the Queen of Blades recognises as uncannily resourceful and too dangerous to allow to live? That's the guy you're trying to portray as a loser in this argument?

Those things you point out are just hearsay really. The Protoss say that because he supported them in their need; if he was such a thorn to the Dominion there doesn't seem to be much visible damage done to them (you've casually dismissed the trillions of dollars wasted as being nothing and Media Blitz actually amounted to nothing despite the game desperately showing us it did) whereas the "damage" has been more on Raynor since he's almost lost by the time we see him in WoL; Kerrigan has also mentioned that it is certainly within her power to kill him at any time but he's not worth even that small an effort.

Raynor is only notable insofar as he is a victim of circumstance that hasn't yielded to the pressure. It's not because he is an effective hero... up until WoL that is. There, he suddenly becomes supercharged on psychosis and booze (not to mention a state-sanctioned terrorist what with Valerian funding him), becoming untouchable in the process and doing things/making huge progress in weeks that he somehow couldn't do over the last 5 years.

The exact nature of the Protoss' losses is unclear.

Not true at all. They lost a frickin' Mothership! Have you read the lore on what this unit is supposed to represent and the power it wields? This is not to mention the numerous Carriers and Void Rays they lost. And all over for what amounts to a "dick swinging contest".

Incidentally, what are you trying to prove about Mengsk's recovery with this talk about Selendis' fleet? I'm afraid I may have lost track of this part of the conversation.

I thought we went off on a tangent purposefully to discuss the apparent silliness of this particular scenario in detail. But, if you want to link it up, it all refers to the apparent weakness of the Protoss and their ability to "recover" being contrasted with the apparent weakness of Mengsk and his ability to "recover".

No, the fact that they don't show up is evidence of the fact that they don't show up. You have no basis for the motives you presume.

At the end of the day, sure it's just speculation but it's far from baseless. It's quite reasonable to ask why the Protoss don't show up to what looks like their only opportunity to attack their most hated enemy given that the Zerg had seemingly started their death march. The choice is either to sit back while the Zerg pour out over the Sector to kill everyone or use that opportunity for counterattack. If the Terrans can recover enough in 5 years such that half of their fleet can mount a successful invasion, just imagine what the Protoss can possibly achieve. That we hear nothing from them at all could suggest several possible things with the most easiest/obvious assumption of which is that they are weak and incapable because of BW being the most recent entry and responsible for turning the Protoss into an endangered species. That they then prove ineffectual against Raynor in the current iteration further cements this notion as being the assumed correct one.

[FanaticTemplar]

That's easy, I can say the same for Mengsk's standing force in Omega as well then.

Ah, you can say that the evidence for Mengsk's Omega fleet is strictly gameplay, can you? There is no evidence in the narrative that Mengsk brought a fleet to Omega? I would be unable to provide quotes from the story establishing that Mengsk did, in fact, have a fleet in Omega? Do you really want to go down this route?

Those things you point out are just hearsay really. The Protoss say that because he supported them in their need; if he was such a thorn to the Dominion there doesn't seem to be much visible damage done to them (you've casually dismissed the trillions of dollars wasted as being nothing and Media Blitz actually amounted to nothing despite the game desperately showing us it did) whereas the "damage" has been more on Raynor since he's almost lost by the time we see him in WoL; Kerrigan has also mentioned that it is certainly within her power to kill him at any time but he's not worth even that small an effort.

So what you're saying is that Raynor's supposed exploits are just hearsay and that he never actually accomplished anything? He did not save innocent colonists from the Zerg on Mar Sara, he was not one of the most important commanders of the movement that overthrew the Confederacy, he did not befriend the Protoss' Twilight Messiah and help rescue him from the Conclave, he was not part of the final battle in which the Overmind was destroyed, he did not help tear down the UED?

Not true at all. They lost a frickin' Mothership! Have you read the lore on what this unit is supposed to represent and the power it wields? This is not to mention the numerous Carriers and Void Rays they lost. And all over for what amounts to a "dick swinging contest".

Yes, and we have no idea what kind of loss this represents.

I thought we went off on a tangent purposefully to discuss the apparent silliness of this particular scenario in detail. But, if you want to link it up, it all refers to the apparent weakness of the Protoss and their ability to "recover" being contrasted with the apparent weakness of Mengsk and his ability to "recover".

You would seem to be arguing in my favour then. If you're trying to demonstrate more absurd recoveries stemming from Brood War, you're really just confirming that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is nothing to get upset about.

At the end of the day, sure it's just speculation but it's far from baseless. It's quite reasonable to ask why the Protoss don't show up to what looks like their only opportunity to attack their most hated enemy given that the Zerg had seemingly started their death march. The choice is either to sit back while the Zerg pour out over the Sector to kill everyone or use that opportunity for counterattack. If the Terrans can recover enough in 5 years such that half of their fleet can mount a successful invasion, just imagine what the Protoss can possibly achieve. That we hear nothing from them at all could suggest several possible things with the most easiest/obvious assumption of which is that they are weak and incapable because of BW being the most recent entry and responsible for turning the Protoss into an endangered species. That they then prove ineffectual against Raynor in the current iteration further cements this notion as being the assumed correct one.

The "most easiest/obvious assumption"?

1- The Terran Dominion did not mount a successful invasion. They managed to hold a tiny patch of land long enough for their magical plot device to win the day.
2- When there is a massive invasion which includes worlds held by the Protoss, the most obvious answer to "where are the Protoss fleets" is "protecting the Protoss worlds from the invasion", not "they don't exist".
3- What part of seeing the Dominion fleet gets its arse handed to it on Char would lead any reasonable leader to conclude that this massive show of strength on the part of Kerrigan is the ideal moment to strike? That's ludicrous.

So no, your assumption is quite silly.

[Turalyon]

Ah, you can say that the evidence for Mengsk's Omega fleet is strictly gameplay, can you? There is no evidence in the narrative that Mengsk brought a fleet to Omega? I would be unable to provide quotes from the story establishing that Mengsk did, in fact, have a fleet in Omega? Do you really want to go down this route?

You missed the point. That someone can bring a fleet (as both Mengsk and Raynor do in Omega and Eye of the Storm respectively) is not truly reflective of them "recovering to fullpower" or being in a position of strength. We know that in both cases, both came from nothing and yet have a fleet at the end. However, you arbitrarily deem Raynor as still being weak there whilst Mengsk is full power restored/not weak. You can't deny that my interpretation has, at the least, some consistency and acknowledgement of previous continuity/consequence of past actions.

So what you're saying is that Raynor's supposed exploits are just hearsay and that he never actually accomplished anything? He did not save innocent colonists from the Zerg on Mar Sara, he was not one of the most important commanders of the movement that overthrew the Confederacy, he did not befriend the Protoss' Twilight Messiah and help rescue him from the Conclave, he was not part of the final battle in which the Overmind was destroyed, he did not help tear down the UED?

Not at all. I'm trying to follow your lead and take a broad objective perspective on things for this particular matter. You've already diminished Raynor's role yourself by saying he really didn't help that much in Eye of the Storm because he's just there for gameplay reasons and dismissed that trillions of dollars being spent on him as not being of any real value to justify Mengsk's power. I'm just surprised you haven't said what I said previously yourself actually.

Yes, and we have no idea what kind of loss this represents.

Doesn't matter. It implies that they are weak and that's enough. They might not be but it sure doesn't help the case against it.

You would seem to be arguing in my favour then. If you're trying to demonstrate more absurd recoveries stemming from Brood War, you're really just confirming that Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty is nothing to get upset about.

Ah, but I do have a problem with the Protoss and moreso than I do with the Mengsk. It's a matter of degrees for me.

1- The Terran Dominion did not mount a successful invasion. They managed to hold a tiny patch of land long enough for their magical plot device to win the day.

They spent quite a bit of time longer there than what one would expect from such a supposedly small and diminished force. They were able to destroy a completely infested orbital platform or single-handedly demolish some caves harbouring some of the worst Zerg monstrosities whilst holding onto their outpost. They got within striking distance of Kerrigan but she just happened to be conveniently invincible. It's quite a bit more successful than we're led to believe. Imagine what the Protoss could do with their technology and tactics and if they supported Raynor.

2- When there is a massive invasion which includes worlds held by the Protoss, the most obvious answer to "where are the Protoss fleets" is "protecting the Protoss worlds from the invasion", not "they don't exist".

I didn't say they "didn't exist", just that they're too weak to do anything beyond hunkering down or lack motivation (which is unlikely). Granted, another possibility is that the Protoss may have just scarpered for parts unknown which is very like the Dark Templar to do.

3- What part of seeing the Dominion fleet gets its arse handed to it on Char would lead any reasonable leader to conclude that this massive show of strength on the part of Kerrigan is the ideal moment to strike? That's ludicrous.

Someone reasonable wouldn't do it. Not everyone is reasonable and to assume otherwise would deny the underlying nature of this fictional universe.

At this point and due to perceived Zerg dominance at the end of BW (despite doing nothing in the interim 5 years) the Protoss know they can't win by holding out and defending if and when the Zerg do decide to attack. There is such thing as military tactic called a counter-attack you know? I take it that Dark Templar have been known to do this from time to time.

[FanaticTemplar]

You missed the point. That someone can bring a fleet (as both Mengsk and Raynor do in Omega and Eye of the Storm respectively) is not truly reflective of them "recovering to fullpower" or being in a position of strength. We know that in both cases, both came from nothing and yet have a fleet at the end. However, you arbitrarily deem Raynor as still being weak there whilst Mengsk is full power restored/not weak. You can't deny that my interpretation has, at the least, some consistency and acknowledgement of previous continuity/consequence of past actions.

No, you missed the point: there's no evidence in the narrative that Raynor brought a fleet to Eye of the Storm.

Not at all. I'm trying to follow your lead and take a broad objective perspective on things for this particular matter. You've already diminished Raynor's role yourself by saying he really didn't help that much in Eye of the Storm because he's just there for gameplay reasons and dismissed that trillions of dollars being spent on him as not being of any real value to justify Mengsk's power. I'm just surprised you haven't said what I said previously yourself actually.

I said he didn't have a fleet with him in Eye of the Storm, and I said that by the standards that dismiss the Omega fleet as not being indicative of Mengsk's power, trillions of dollars cannot be indicative of Mengsk's power either. It should be evident by now that by my standards both the Omega fleet and the trillions of dollars are indicative of Mengsk's power.

Doesn't matter. It implies that they are weak and that's enough. They might not be but it sure doesn't help the case against it.

Then clearly, they are stronger than the Zerg, since Raynor inflicted far more casualties upon the Swarm than upon the Protoss.

Ah, but I do have a problem with the Protoss and moreso than I do with the Mengsk. It's a matter of degrees for me.

I'm afraid I don't understand how that relates to what I said.

They spent quite a bit of time longer there than what one would expect from such a supposedly small and diminished force.

Arbitrary measurement invented to confirm your presupposition.

I didn't say they "didn't exist", just that they're too weak to do anything beyond hunkering down or lack motivation (which is unlikely). Granted, another possibility is that the Protoss may have just scarpered for parts unknown which is very like the Dark Templar to do.

Replace "they don't exist" with "they are so weak as to be functionally indistinguishable from not existing". It doesn't change the fact that your assumption is wrong.

Someone reasonable wouldn't do it. Not everyone is reasonable and to assume otherwise would deny the underlying nature of this fictional universe.

So you're upset because the Protoss did something reasonable?

At this point and due to perceived Zerg dominance at the end of BW (despite doing nothing in the interim 5 years) the Protoss know they can't win by holding out and defending if and when the Zerg do decide to attack. There is such thing as military tactic called a counter-attack you know? I take it that Dark Templar have been known to do this from time to time.

Yes, but you've not demonstrated how the fact that they did not employ one specific possible strategy - and an unreasonable one at that - when there are multiple options available is supposed to demonstrate your assumption.

[Turalyon]

No, you missed the point: there's no evidence in the narrative that Raynor brought a fleet to Eye of the Storm.

Seeing is not believing, huh? So you're saying that Raynor's presence in Trial of Tassadar is exactly the same as of that in Eye of the Storm? Love to see your explanation for that.

I said that by the standards that dismiss the Omega fleet as not being indicative of Mengsk's power, trillions of dollars cannot be indicative of Mengsk's power either. It should be evident by now that by my standards both the Omega fleet and the trillions of dollars are indicative of Mengsk's power.

What standards do you think I presume? In Omega, there is no indication in the narrative that Mengsk has recovered his whole Dominion, Empire and lording over all Terrans. The closest thing you got was a victory screen mention but since that's not really part of the narrative but a gameplay element, then seeing is not believing according to you. In WoL, Mengsk has all of those because it establishes it there and then as being so.

Then clearly, they are stronger than the Zerg, since Raynor inflicted far more casualties upon the Swarm than upon the Protoss.

You mean the Protoss are stronger than the Zerg? Pound for pound/One-on-one, sure the Protoss come out on top but it's established the Protoss took heavy damage previously such that further losses would have even greater impact than if things were "normal". Zerg casualties are expected since they a large part of their tactics involve attrition warfare and can recover their losses quicker. Not only that, the narrative has overpowered them in such a way that you could kill millions of them and still end up losing/being defeated by them. Because the Protoss took the brunt of all the Zerg's overpoweredness, it's why the Protoss are deemed as weak now in general - Smash and Grab goes on to prove that when they're up against the Zerg. Besides, Raynor didn't have half the Dominion fleet helping him fight the Protoss. So even though a typical single Terran unit vs an equivalent Protoss one would still have the odds in favour of the Protoss, Raynor had less overall numbers than the Protoss which makes his victory even more astounding and the Protoss even more lamer than even before.

I'm afraid I don't understand how that relates to what I said.

I thought you were intimating that I was arguing along the same lines as you in that because it's OK for Mengsk to comeback because it's consistently absurd that the Protoss doing the same for the same reason (being consistently absurd) is also OK. Well, it's not.

Arbitrary measurement invented to confirm your presupposition.

As opposed to them arbitrarily making it to the surface of Char or even getting even close to the planet to even make planetfall?

Replace "they don't exist" with "they are so weak as to be functionally indistinguishable from not existing". It doesn't change the fact that your assumption is wrong.

So you're agreed that they're too weak to do anything else but defend then? Finally, we're getting somewhere.

So you're upset because the Protoss did something reasonable?

It's a matter of perspective/relativism. Did Tassadar do what he did because it was reasonable? Or for that matter, Aldaris in his pursuit of Tassadar? You could argue that all the actions of the protagonists in each of the preceding campaign to be unreasonable and that this is partly what good tales are all about. It's not about that.

If the Terrans can make up an excuse (can one really say the artifact is reasonable or unreasonable?) to attack Kerrigan, why can't the Protoss? Because, either a) the Protoss are all reasonable (good luck trying to argue that case and win given their history) and decided not to take any action or b) the writers didn't think of it at the time.

Yes, but you've not demonstrated how the fact that they did not employ one specific possible strategy - and an unreasonable one at that - when there are multiple options available is supposed to demonstrate your assumption.

Given that it's all speculative, there's a wide margin for me to conceive of anything to justify why the Protoss could appear. For example, it could be just that Artanis could've received word that Raynor was part of the force (half the Dominion fleet, mind you) that infiltrated Char and due to his stinging loss a few years back decided to investigate or help out where he could by sending some forces out. They apparently have time and resources to send out a fully-kitted Executor (Selendis) to wipe out Zerg infestations on unimportant Terran worlds, so why not investigate this?

[FanaticTemplar]

Seeing is not believing, huh? So you're saying that Raynor's presence in Trial of Tassadar is exactly the same as of that in Eye of the Storm? Love to see your explanation for that.

They wanted to save the mission where you controlled two factions simultaneously for the finale, I would guess? I'm not sure I understand where you're going here. Are we still discussing gameplay elements?

What standards do you think I presume? In Omega, there is no indication in the narrative that Mengsk has recovered his whole Dominion, Empire and lording over all Terrans. The closest thing you got was a victory screen mention but since that's not really part of the narrative but a gameplay element, then seeing is not believing according to you. In WoL, Mengsk has all of those because it establishes it there and then as being so.

Incredible recovery does not equal complete recovery.

You mean the Protoss are stronger than the Zerg? Pound for pound/One-on-one, sure the Protoss come out on top but it's established the Protoss took heavy damage previously such that further losses would have even greater impact than if things were "normal". Zerg casualties are expected since they a large part of their tactics involve attrition warfare and can recover their losses quicker. Not only that, the narrative has overpowered them in such a way that you could kill millions of them and still end up losing/being defeated by them. Because the Protoss took the brunt of all the Zerg's overpoweredness, it's why the Protoss are deemed as weak now in general - Smash and Grab goes on to prove that when they're up against the Zerg. Besides, Raynor didn't have half the Dominion fleet helping him fight the Protoss. So even though a typical single Terran unit vs an equivalent Protoss one would still have the odds in favour of the Protoss, Raynor had less overall numbers than the Protoss which makes his victory even more astounding and the Protoss even more lamer than even before.

I was pointing out the flaw in your reasoning. You asserted that, all other factors being irrelevant, the fact that Raynor inflicted losses on the Protoss proves that they are weak. I pointed out that Raynor has inflicted more losses on the Zerg, therefore they must be even weaker.

I thought you were intimating that I was arguing along the same lines as you in that because it's OK for Mengsk to comeback because it's consistently absurd that the Protoss doing the same for the same reason (being consistently absurd) is also OK. Well, it's not.

No, no. I mean that arguing that the Protoss made ridiculous recoveries in Brood War is just another reason not to get especially upset with Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty.

As opposed to them arbitrarily making it to the surface of Char or even getting even close to the planet to even make planetfall?

"Longer than expected" is a meaningless measurement because your expectations will naturally coincide with your expected conclusion. For instance, they did a lot worse than I expected.

So you're agreed that they're too weak to do anything else but defend then? Finally, we're getting somewhere.

I'll skip over the blatantly absurd notion that it is impossible to defend yourself if you're strong, and merely point out that the Zerg are still infinitely strong since the Brood War retcon, so yes, we are in agreement that the Protoss are not infinitely powerful.

It's a matter of perspective/relativism. Did Tassadar do what he did because it was reasonable? Or for that matter, Aldaris in his pursuit of Tassadar? You could argue that all the actions of the protagonists in each of the preceding campaign to be unreasonable and that this is partly what good tales are all about. It's not about that.

If the Terrans can make up an excuse (can one really say the artifact is reasonable or unreasonable?) to attack Kerrigan, why can't the Protoss? Because, either a) the Protoss are all reasonable (good luck trying to argue that case and win given their history) and decided not to take any action or b) the writers didn't think of it at the time.

No, the problem is that you're asserting that they cannot be reasonable. You're making the stupefying leap that doing anything other than something unreasonable means an inability to do anything.

[Turalyon]

I'm not sure I understand where you're going here. Are we still discussing gameplay elements?

I was just making an aside on how you can just dismiss Raynor not really having an army/fleet in Eye of the Storm by citing "gameplay reasons" because it's not addressed narratively even though we see him in command of one and that if Raynor really didn't have an army in Eye of the Storm, he should've just appeared as a single battlecruiser ala Trial of Tassadar.

Incredible recovery does not equal complete recovery.

Who are you talking about here? I'm fairly certain that your argument regarding Mengsk was always about him having a complete recovery to account for his presence in Omega.

I was pointing out the flaw in your reasoning. You asserted that, all other factors being irrelevant, the fact that Raynor inflicted losses on the Protoss proves that they are weak. I pointed out that Raynor has inflicted more losses on the Zerg, therefore they must be even weaker.

Fair enough, but I wasn't making that point in isolation but with regards to what we already know about what the Protoss have gone through in terms of recent history. As I said, context is important.

No, no. I mean that arguing that the Protoss made ridiculous recoveries in Brood War is just another reason not to get especially upset with Mengsk's recovery in Wings of Liberty.

Can the Protoss appearance in BW even classified as a "recovery"? Everyone else still thinks the Protoss are still weak at the end of BW. Also, given their minimal presence in WoL and HotS so far in which they are shown to be ineffectual (both appearances show them being soundly defeated by weaker opponents that were also weaker than when they were originally - Raynor had lost most of his resources fighting Mengsk and Kerrigan had been deinfested and was trying to regain Zerg support again) and that their homeworlds/fleets are completely ruined by the end of BW, it doesn't bode well to say that the Protoss are recovered in BW nor in Sc2.

That's why I'm concerned about the Protoss coming out of nowhere and somehow winning in LotV because I don't see it as being possible with what they've laid out for us. I assume you don't mind the Protoss recovering in time for LotV because you've accepted the absurdity of such things. This makes me wonder why you even have to worry about the Zerg being overpowered because in actuality it's countered by the fact that absurd comebacks (another form of overpoweredness that the Terrans and Protoss seem to have in equal supply) are possible.

"Longer than expected" is a meaningless measurement because your expectations will naturally coincide with your expected conclusion. For instance, they did a lot worse than I expected.

Fair enough. But how do you account for the fact that despite it being suicidal and being hopeless (to justify it being worse than expected) that it was still enough to penetrate what Zerg defences they had, make planetfall, form a base camp, defend it enough to initiate offensive maneuvers all until the artifact was available to be powered up? If it really was worse than expected, they should have perished the instant they got near Char...

I'll skip over the blatantly absurd notion that it is impossible to defend yourself if you're strong

Where did I say this? How you can say the Protoss are strong/recovered is another thing. It's a given by now, no thanks to BW, that people are under the assumption that the Zerg are overpowered and the Protoss are underpowered.

No, the problem is that you're asserting that they cannot be reasonable.

Did I? *Shrug* Thought I was just saying generally that not all Protoss were reasonable.

[FanaticTemplar]

I was just making an aside on how you can just dismiss Raynor not really having an army/fleet in Eye of the Storm by citing "gameplay reasons" because it's not addressed narratively even though we see him in command of one and that if Raynor really didn't have an army in Eye of the Storm, he should've just appeared as a single battlecruiser ala Trial of Tassadar.

He had a crew with him (the Terrans saved in Into the Darkness were presumably part of Raynor's crew), but I expect it was of a comparative size to what he commanded in Wings of Liberty. There's never any basis for him having a fleet of Battlecruisers, or anything comparable to what was brought to the table in Omega.

Who are you talking about here? I'm fairly certain that your argument regarding Mengsk was always about him having a complete recovery to account for his presence in Omega.

No, my argument was that Mengsk's recovery in Omega was similarly incredible to his recovery in Wings of Liberty, accounting for elapsed time.

Fair enough, but I wasn't making that point in isolation but with regards to what we already know about what the Protoss have gone through in terms of recent history. As I said, context is important.

That's why I said that we have no idea what that represents for the present Protoss. We have no context, due to them pretty much not appearing in the story thus far.

Can the Protoss appearance in BW even classified as a "recovery"? Everyone else still thinks the Protoss are still weak at the end of BW. Also, given their minimal presence in WoL and HotS so far in which they are shown to be ineffectual (both appearances show them being soundly defeated by weaker opponents that were also weaker than when they were originally - Raynor had lost most of his resources fighting Mengsk and Kerrigan had been deinfested and was trying to regain Zerg support again) and that their homeworlds/fleets are completely ruined by the end of BW, it doesn't bode well to say that the Protoss are recovered in BW nor in Sc2.

If you're talking about Kaldir, I am certain you know that this was an isolated colony improperly equipped to deal with Kerrigan's Swarm. She was not prepared to face the full might of the Protoss, which is why the repetitive plot of every single mission was about preventing the colony from contacting Shakuras in some different way (even though we're talking about the telepaths who can warp across space at a whim. Wow that arc was stupid.) You're statement that Kerrigan was a 'weaker' opponent is an extremely dubious one.

Anyway, yes, the Protoss recovered. Aldaris states that they are bereft of the Protoss fleets from the very first mission, yet Artanis shows up with one in Omega, even after the stupidity that occurred on Shakuras with the random nameless Zerg.

That's why I'm concerned about the Protoss coming out of nowhere and somehow winning in LotV because I don't see it as being possible with what they've laid out for us. I assume you don't mind the Protoss recovering in time for LotV because you've accepted the absurdity of such things. This makes me wonder why you even have to worry about the Zerg being overpowered because in actuality it's countered by the fact that absurd comebacks (another form of overpoweredness that the Terrans and Protoss seem to have in equal supply) are possible.

The Zerg are just on another level. Even with Mengsk's comeback in Wings of Liberty, no matter how powerful you think he is the fact is that the writers needed to pull out a ton of plot devices out of their arses to justify half the Dominion fleet being able to hold on to a tiny patch of land on Char long enough to activate their magic wand, and fans still complain that even this minimal achievement was implausible. I remind you that the plot devices included:

- Most of the Zerg are away invading everything else, so only a minimal home guard is there to defend against half the Terran Dominion fleet.
- The Terrans have a magic wand that will instantly disintegrate any Zerg nearby.

And again in Heart of the Swarm, the battle for Korhal couldn't even start without handicapping the Zerg:

- Huge numbers of Zerg were lost when Kerrigan was deinfested.
- Kerrigan is leaving most of her forces behind to run away if she fails.
- She is actively handicapping herself to minimise civilian casualties.
- Mengsk has a new magic wand he pulled out of his arse (he also has the old one, though he doesn't use it until he comes face to face with Kerrigan)

And despite all this, the Zerg completely crush the most heavily defended city in the Terran Dominion, with all of Mengsk's forces pulled back to defend it, and kill the Emperor. And still fans complain that this was implausible. Go back a few pages and you'll find Gradius doing just that in this very thread. I don't care that the Zerg are stronger than they should have been after StarCraft, I care that they are so stupidly powerful that they are a narrative dead-end. You cannot involve the Zerg in any plot without running into the problem that the Zerg should have already killed everything else involved, and no matter how many excuses you pull out to justify why the Zerg are so "weak" as to take more than one mission to wipe out everybody, the fans will not accept this. Brood War has rendered the Zerg narratively unusable, the Terrans narratively insignificant, and the Protoss practically insignificant. They reverted the second in StarCraft II, and possibly retconned the third, though it's hard to say since they made the Protoss narratively insignificant, but they kept the first consistent. People complain that it's as though the writers of StarCraft II were completely ignoring Brood War, but I only wish that were true.

Fair enough. But how do you account for the fact that despite it being suicidal and being hopeless (to justify it being worse than expected) that it was still enough to penetrate what Zerg defences they had, make planetfall, form a base camp, defend it enough to initiate offensive maneuvers all until the artifact was available to be powered up? If it really was worse than expected, they should have perished the instant they got near Char...

? No, they did worse than I expected. I expected them to do better than they did.

Where did I say this? How you can say the Protoss are strong/recovered is another thing. It's a given by now, no thanks to BW, that people are under the assumption that the Zerg are overpowered and the Protoss are underpowered.

That's one I share, at least.

Did I? *Shrug* Thought I was just saying generally that not all Protoss were reasonable.

But you're arguing that the fact that they did not do this unreasonable action means that they could not do this unreasonable action.

[Gradius]

No, my argument was that Mengsk's recovery in Omega was similarly incredible to his recovery in Wings of Liberty, accounting for elapsed time.

You still haven't demonstrated how indebting yourself to scrounge up a new fleet is evidence of a "recovery".

Even if you don't believe that he's indebting himself, and that the fleet is in fact his (it's not), that's still not a recovery. That's him using his last reserves, and getting them destroyed. This sets the stage for his WoL recovery being impossible.

And despite all this, the Zerg completely crush the most heavily defended city in the Terran Dominion, with all of Mengsk's forces pulled back to defend it, and kill the Emperor. And still fans complain that this was implausible. Go back a few pages and you'll find Gradius doing just that in this very thread.

No... I was complaining about the fact that Mengsk and the Dominion posed an actual challenge to the swarm (evidence of how ridiculous the WoL recovery was). And as explained, the "handicaps" you mention are irrelevant. Kerrigan had it worse in BW and managed to steamroll Korhal with ease.

[Turalyon]

He had a crew with him (the Terrans saved in Into the Darkness were presumably part of Raynor's crew), but I expect it was of a comparative size to what he commanded in Wings of Liberty. There's never any basis for him having a fleet of Battlecruisers, or anything comparable to what was brought to the table in Omega.

How can you be so sure that Raynor doesn't or can't have access to Battlecruisers? Isn't that just an assumption based on context gleaned from his recent history - the very thing that you're putting me to the sword for when I use the same reasoning for Mengsk? I'm curious whether you would rail against the idea of Raynor happening to have multiple BC's/being visibly more powerful in WoL (I still don't know what the official word on this is) because really he's had absurd comebacks prior to this and therefore cannot be be described as being "weak".

Raynor clearly had enough fire/manpower to survive a battle with the Overmind's royal guard, so why isn't that evidence that Raynor's is not weak/fully recovered (since you still think that Raynor is always "weak")? When contrasted to Mengsk clearly having enough fire/manpower to wage a battle against Kerrigan's (small) defensive force in Omega despite being established as being weak, this is somehow evidence that he is not weak/fully recovered.

No, my argument was that Mengsk's recovery in Omega was similarly incredible to his recovery in Wings of Liberty, accounting for elapsed time.

This still hinges on the notion that he first had recovered fully at all for Omega.

You're statement that Kerrigan was a 'weaker' opponent is an extremely dubious one.

Not quite. Kerrigan had dropped significant levels (compared to the height of her powers when she was fully infested) and could only command a small army of Zerg at that point in time. Given Zerg strength is dependent on numbers and that any single Protoss can kill many times their number in Zerg before falling, Kerrigan is indeed a weaker opponent. If she wasn't that weak, she wouldn't feel the need to go infest herself again to fight the weak Dominion forces/Mengsk.

Anyway, yes, the Protoss recovered.

This is by no means clear with what we've been given so far. If it's as easy as saying that and producing Artanis' presence in Omega as evidence of the Protoss recovery, why are people still complaining about Protoss being weak then?

...the fact is that the writers needed to pull out a ton of plot devices out of their arses to justify...

And despite all this, the Zerg completely crush the most heavily defended city in the Terran Dominion, with all of Mengsk's forces pulled back to defend it, and kill the Emperor. And still fans complain that this was implausible.

Well, really it's not that bad because all the writers have to do is just make a plot device that weakens the Zerg that actually sticks. What with all the arse-pull plot devices you've already listed, surely it can't be that hard now to make up yet another one. Can the continuance of Zerg dominance in Sc2 really be blamed on them being written with that specific purpose or is it due to the introduction and reliance on (supposedly) powerful and poorly conceived plot devices designed to hinder them necessitating it to be written that the Zerg overpower them in order to remain relevant?

I don't care that the Zerg are stronger than they should have been after StarCraft, I care that they are so stupidly powerful that they are a narrative dead-end... Brood War has rendered the Zerg narratively unusable, the Terrans narratively insignificant, and the Protoss practically insignificant.

You know, this is the exact reason why I was content for BW to be the actual "full-stop" end of Starcraft's story way back when. It was definitive such that a sequel was not really necessary.

They reverted the second in StarCraft II, and possibly retconned the third, though it's hard to say since they made the Protoss narratively insignificant, but they kept the first consistent. People complain that it's as though the writers of StarCraft II were completely ignoring Brood War, but I only wish that were true.

I can see why this could bother you, but given the way BW ended, I never expected a narratively viable sequel anyway because such a thing would just have Kerrigan steamroll over everyone (whether she then gets steamrolled in turn by this "greater threat on the horizon" or not is superfluous). Sc2 is a commercially viable sequel and as such it has to have some changes (the "certain point of view" altering of the dynamics/power levels of the other races, reprioritising what the grand threat is) whilst retaining other things (the Zerg being top-dog) to justify the sequel tag.

The ignoring of BW argument is more to do with Sc2 being able to start directly from Sc1 without needing much adjustment to account for it. In BW, we don't even have to know that Mengsk got defeated in BW, that the UED invaded/made an impact, that Raynor swore vengeance against Kerrigan, that Shakuras got totalled, that Zeratul knew about Hybrids or that Kerrigan/the Zerg became top-dog. The setup of Sc2 can immediately follow on from Sc1, with Kerrigan sitting on and then marshalling out of Char somehow inheriting the Overmind's ability to control all the Zerg, Mengsk's Dominion being the dominant Terran force, Raynor being marginalised/weak, the Protoss not appearing due to them having to rebuild.

No, they did worse than I expected. I expected them to do better than they did.

In what way? How? Why? What's worse than them not even making it to Char to even initiate an invasion at all?

But you're arguing that the fact that they did not do this unreasonable action means that they could not do this unreasonable action.

That's right, could as in the possibility of it. They didn't invade Char because there's the possibility that they can't - an assumption easily formed due to their recent history of being shown to be weak.