Why doesn't the Captain warn DuGalle about Duran's treachery?

[FanaticTemplar]

I think you meant To Slay the Beast, right? Either that or you must secretly like the UED more than you put on.

Hah, quite .

Aw c'mon, you've baited the hook now. You have to explain yourself here.

I'll start another thread, these replies are getting pretty long as it is. Besides, it might interest people who do not want to read these exchanges.

Be that as it may, it's kinda divided whether Raynor himself was even really worth revolving a story around, let alone including Mengsk. He's a pretty dull character but like Mengsk, he seems to be there just because he's contractually obligated to appear (or more politically correct, "recognisable").

Well, that's a whole other argument, and even though I liked Wings of Liberty I do believe it would have been more enjoyable if told from Tychus' perspective, but at this point we're getting pretty far off topic. For the sake of discussion, I think we have to accept that the writers decided to tell a story centred on Raynor and Kerrigan, and from that perspective Mengsk is an almost necessary part of the cast.

All we can give you are deemed as hypotheticals, which you won't even fathom, so there's not much more we can do. I'm not here to convince you to think my way, just to explain why we think the way we do.

Sure, but I'm asking why would you want to think that way, when there's no really solid reason to do so, and it creates plot holes with Wings of Liberty? This is not an obvious retcon, like the Overmind and Amon and the Primal Zerg and the Tal'darim and the Zerg winning the battle of Aiur and the UED monitoring the Koprulu Sector and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. Hell, it's not even really an implied retcon like this whole "Raynor no longer wants to kill Kerrigan" thing. I can see why people are upset at that, even though I personally don't have a problem with it. But this whole "Mengsk should never have recovered from Brood War" thing, I don't get at all. The epilogue said he'd be rebuilding the Dominion. Even if you interpreted it differently, I can't understand why you would be so attached to your interpretation that you would blame Wings of Liberty of "not being consistent with Brood War".

I had been so inured by the inane happenings of Sc2 at that point, such that when Stukov appeared in my first playthrough I wasn't really fazed by it. But thinking back on this with a clear head, there isn't a palm big enough to engulf my head in shame for the Stukov thing being confirmed.

Yeah, I kinda underreacted to it too, somehow :P. I wonder if he was included just because fans were complaining that the events of Brood War weren't being acknowledged enough? Or maybe they just really liked Stukov. Who knows.

But can you not see that saying that those two thing being consistent and therefore justified intimates that he has actually fully recovered in all respects? Absurdity begets absurdity.

No, I actually can't. It's about relative differences to me. The difference between Mengsk after True Colors and before Omega, multiplied by the time allotment gives me a similar level of recovery as Mengsk after Omega and at the beginning of Wings of Liberty multiplied by the time allotment.

The Protoss suffer "irrecoverable damage" too, and yet they can still make a show of strength.

Are you talking about Fenix, or Aiur?

The "irrecoverable damage" was in regards to the Dominion. If it were in regard to Mengsk, "irrecoverable damage" would mean his death. Hence the hypothetical about Mengsk gaining his fleet through nothing but "talking" (because he's done this before with Duke) and how we can't expect him to keep doing this from the position he was last in. You seem to think that he can do this indefinitely, hence my flippant remark about being "invincible".

Actually, the difference is that I think he can't do it even once, whereas you think he can do it only once.

No, you interpreted what I said to be this. All I said was that the narration is not omniscient.

Omniscient narrator, the literary narration style. Not omniscient as in the writers know the future.

That's because no-one, (not even the audience) knew that Tassadar was even there or "on the ground" fighting so it wasn't even a question to begin with. Such logic invites and makes possible ridiculous claims like saying Raynor was really a Protoss the whole time because future appearance demonstrate that he always was. With Mengsk, the scenario going into Omega that he's "down but not out". When he loses, the question of whether he can get really get "up" is still very much open.

Sure they did - the post The Trump Card interlude identifies him: "Once again, the Protoss fleet, under the command of High Templar Tassadar, arrived and incinerated the planet.".

The end of BW essentially telegraphs that everyone but the Zerg are screwed no matter what. It's arbitrary that she just happened to conveniently do nothing at all in that whole time after BW.

Yes, but its arbitrary due to Brood War. This is something established by that game.

And yet they hardly appear at all in Sc2 which for intents and purposes telegraphs their weakness.

Wrong, it telegraphs that the story revolved around Terrans, with one of those Terrans commanding the Zerg. The Protoss don't appear in StarCraft II because the writers have nothing for them to do. The writers have always been awful at implementing PvT conflict in the series, which is why they introduced the Tal'darim. Hell, it still beats The Iron Fist where the human fleet created specifically to combat aliens spends the entire campaign obsessing over Terrans. Ridiculous.

[Turalyon]

Well, that's a whole other argument, and even though I liked Wings of Liberty I do believe it would have been more enjoyable if told from Tychus' perspective, but at this point we're getting pretty far off topic. For the sake of discussion, I think we have to accept that the writers decided to tell a story centred on Raynor and Kerrigan, and from that perspective Mengsk is an almost necessary part of the cast.

Well, it's somewhat linked to the topic in terms of explaining Mengsk's appearance because it's about the predilections of the writer. A fictional universe's longevity and power come from the writer's ability to give a sense that the universe flows and exists independently from what the writer may actually want (in other words, it takes up a life of it's own accord). By already choosing a limitation of writing only from Raynor's perspective, everything thing else seems forced to bend toward it, up to and including having Mengsk as being the only worthwhile antagonist for him(it rubs even more poorly when he is presented as anything but worthwhile in Sc2).

I note that you said "almost necessary" and that's the feeling that Sc2 does not capture. Mengsk in WoL is felt and made to be unnaturally necessary for that story. I'm not necessarily against the whole idea of Mengsk coming back in full force in WoL completely (he was one of my favourite characters afterall, which may seem odd considering that I appear to be vehement against his appearance), I just feel cheated that there seems to be no hint of consequence or continuation (not in the sense that being absurd is the norm) from the previous entry. I actually find myself wanting the sequel to be more about how Mengsk was able to get his Dominion got back up and how Raynor came to cooling his jets and gradually losing his battle with Mengsk - all the stuff that happened in the 5 years - rather than it saying "stuff happened so just swallow it".

Sure, but I'm asking why would you want to think that way, when there's no really solid reason to do so, and it creates plot holes with Wings of Liberty? This is not an obvious retcon, like the Overmind and Amon and the Primal Zerg and the Tal'darim and the Zerg winning the battle of Aiur and the UED monitoring the Koprulu Sector and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. Hell, it's not even really an implied retcon like this whole "Raynor no longer wants to kill Kerrigan" thing. I can see why people are upset at that, even though I personally don't have a problem with it. But this whole "Mengsk should never have recovered from Brood War" thing, I don't get at all. The epilogue said he'd be rebuilding the Dominion. Even if you interpreted it differently, I can't understand why you would be so attached to your interpretation that you would blame Wings of Liberty of "not being consistent with Brood War".

I've said I'm a little softer on the "Mengsk should not come back in WoL at all" than the others. It's not about it being a retcon or lacking consistency (I've never said this to be a retcon mind you), it's about it lacking a sense of consequence and continuousness. It's also important to note that this position, for me at least, was held even before WoL came out or any knowledge of a sequel was going to happen. Poor interpretive skills? I don't know, but I can't be completely wrong if someone else interpreted it in a similar way.

I wonder if he was included just because fans were complaining that the events of Brood War weren't being acknowledged enough? Or maybe they just really liked Stukov. Who knows.

It's both. It explains the Fenix shout-out, too. What's funny was that Metzen disregarded that Stukov resurrection thing at first only to then, as HotS confirms, change his mind about it.

No, I actually can't. It's about relative differences to me. The difference between Mengsk after True Colors and before Omega, multiplied by the time allotment gives me a similar level of recovery as Mengsk after Omega and at the beginning of Wings of Liberty multiplied by the time allotment.

I get this logic but it's rather simplistic and disregarding of any other extenuating factors, right? It's based on the assumption that everything happens in a vaccuum with no concern for other possible variables. As such, this logic would invite absurdity as the norm - hence, using this logic Mengsk must have fully recovered in all respects.

Are you talking about Fenix, or Aiur?

Simply put, I'm talking about having two of their greatest bastions (Aiur and Shakuras) rendered inert despite their best efforts.

Actually, the difference is that I think he can't do it even once, whereas you think he can do it only once.

But you've accepted the absurdity of it as being the norm such that even though you would say he can't do it even once, because it's established that the absurd can happen, then he can do it indefinitely.

Sure they did - the post The Trump Card interlude identifies him: "Once again, the Protoss fleet, under the command of High Templar Tassadar, arrived and incinerated the planet.".

But where does it say Tassadar was commanding the fleet specifically in New Gettysburg? One can't just assume because he was there in The Trump Card mission that he was there and made himself vulnerable to be killed at New Gettysburg. Where is his in-game unit in that mission? Where does it say he categorically dies? Why doesn't he beseech the Terrans before fighting them? The initial claim has no weight whatsoever. I could just as easily have the counter claim that it wasn't Tassadar commanding the fleet in New Gettysburg and it was that commander who died, if he/she even died at all.

Once again, I point to my example of Kerrigan dying at New Gettysburg. You can't use later events to say she was always going to live/survive at New Gettysburg. Indeed, the writers only conceived of her surviving through being infested very late in the story's development.

Wrong, it telegraphs that the story revolved around Terrans, with one of those Terrans commanding the Zerg. The Protoss don't appear in StarCraft II because the writers have nothing for them to do.

Ah, but they do appear in Sc2 (not Tal'Darim) and they get trounced by Raynor of all people! If that doesn't say they're weak, there's no convincing you.

Also the distinct lack of Protoss presence in the final battle against Kerrigan is a major sign, if not one that is readily apparent. Of all people, the Protoss have a vested interest in having vengeance against the one responsible for putting them in a condition even worse than they were in Sc1 - it's the reason Artanis was there for Omega when he could have ostensibly let it go. Of all things, this is perhaps the one thing for them to do/appear! For them to not even be there to help in some limited capacity (at the least) or even know about it, must speak of their weakness because they've got plenty of motivation but either don't have the protosspower (felt odd saying manpower) or resources to do anything about it due to their previous and numerous crushing defeats. I can't even imagine the alternative of the Protoss not even knowing what was going on either because that too is an implication of the Protoss being ineffectual.

[FanaticTemplar]

Well, it's somewhat linked to the topic in terms of explaining Mengsk's appearance because it's about the predilections of the writer. A fictional universe's longevity and power come from the writer's ability to give a sense that the universe flows and exists independently from what the writer may actually want (in other words, it takes up a life of it's own accord). By already choosing a limitation of writing only from Raynor's perspective, everything thing else seems forced to bend toward it, up to and including having Mengsk as being the only worthwhile antagonist for him(it rubs even more poorly when he is presented as anything but worthwhile in Sc2).

Centring a story on a single protagonist is not really unusual. That's the way it was with most of the previous StarCraft campaigns too, and I'm not talking about the nameless Player Character. Rebel Yell was about Raynor, Overmind was about Kerrigan (and suffered a lot from her absence in the final two missions), The Fall is about Tassadar, The Stand is unfocused and suffers from it, The Iron Fist actually is an ensemble piece, and Queen of Blades is about Kerrigan again. Centring the story on Raynor isn't a bad idea, it's just that there isn't that much to play with, the tragedy of Mengsk's betrayal and the loss of Kerrigan has already been played out in Rebel Yell, keeping that as your focus is grasping at past glory. As a narrative impetus for what the Raiders do it's fine, but I would have preferred if the game had taken place from Tychus's perspective, with the drama focused on his deal with Mengsk and whether or not he would actually betray Raynor at the end (ultimately, the fact that he was not able to, but Raynor killed him anyway would have highlighted the tragedy of the story).

I've said I'm a little softer on the "Mengsk should not come back in WoL at all" than the others. It's not about it being a retcon or lacking consistency (I've never said this to be a retcon mind you),

Ah, sorry. But someone did twelve pages ago and that's how I got involved in this :P.

it's about it lacking a sense of consequence and continuousness. It's also important to note that this position, for me at least, was held even before WoL came out or any knowledge of a sequel was going to happen. Poor interpretive skills? I don't know, but I can't be completely wrong if someone else interpreted it in a similar way.

So you feel the same way about it as I do about the Zerg in Brood War, I think?

But then, at least they gave the five years excuse for Mengsk's recovery. I got hard retcon to the face :P.

I get this logic but it's rather simplistic and disregarding of any other extenuating factors, right? It's based on the assumption that everything happens in a vaccuum with no concern for other possible variables. As such, this logic would invite absurdity as the norm - hence, using this logic Mengsk must have fully recovered in all respects.

Actually, I think you're the one dismissing extenuating factors - the five years of peace - as arbitrary.

Simply put, I'm talking about having two of their greatest bastions (Aiur and Shakuras) rendered inert despite their best efforts.

I was going to say that they hadn't necessarily suffered irrecoverable damage because they managed to evacuate through the Warp Gate, but Aldaris does say that they are bereft of their great fleet from the very first mission, so you are correct. These improbable recoveries are more widespread in Brood War than even I had imagined.

But you've accepted the absurdity of it as being the norm such that even though you would say he can't do it even once, because it's established that the absurd can happen, then he can do it indefinitely.

Not really, I'm just pointing out that placing the blame for this on Wings of Liberty is being a bit oblivious to established precedents.

But where does it say Tassadar was commanding the fleet specifically in New Gettysburg? One can't just assume because he was there in The Trump Card mission that he was there and made himself vulnerable to be killed at New Gettysburg. Where is his in-game unit in that mission? Where does it say he categorically dies? Why doesn't he beseech the Terrans before fighting them? The initial claim has no weight whatsoever. I could just as easily have the counter claim that it wasn't Tassadar commanding the fleet in New Gettysburg and it was that commander who died, if he/she even died at all.

Ah, but where does it categorically state that Mengsk's Dominion was in an irrecoverable state after Omega? In fact, does it not specifically state that he was going to rebuild?

Ah, but they do appear in Sc2 (not Tal'Darim) and they get trounced by Raynor of all people! If that doesn't say they're weak, there's no convincing you.

Nah, I've got no reason to believe that Selendis's fleet in that mission was a significant portion of the Protoss forces. They clearly did not have much vested interest in Haven and fighting Raynor.

Also the distinct lack of Protoss presence in the final battle against Kerrigan is a major sign, if not one that is readily apparent.

They were not informed that the Terrans possessed a Deus ex Machina device, without which the attack is suicidal folly. They've already attempted the whole sending their fleets business in Omega, and it didn't work out. There is no apparent reason why another attempt would be more successful. In fact, Arcturus didn't think that endeavour was a good idea either.

[Turalyon]

Centring the story on Raynor isn't a bad idea, it's just that there isn't that much to play with, the tragedy of Mengsk's betrayal and the loss of Kerrigan has already been played out in Rebel Yell, keeping that as your focus is grasping at past glory.

This was more or less what I was getting at. Because the writers decided to go the familiar route by using Raynor as the main character, you have things like Mengsk being obliged to being written in there as well. This was made worse when it was quite clear that Mengsk's character in WoL had even less material to play with than Raynor.

So you feel the same way about it as I do about the Zerg in Brood War, I think?

But then, at least they gave the five years excuse for Mengsk's recovery. I got hard retcon to the face :P.

Kind of. Much like it would've been nice to explore how the Zerg got so overpowered that they could still overrun Shakuras (the home of their deadliest enemy!) without the Overmind, I would've liked an exploration of Mengsk's recovery rather than just have it saying it was just a done deal and that he bore no scars from BW. Seemed like a missed opportunity that was worth investigating compared to what we got with WoL.

Actually, I think you're the one dismissing extenuating factors - the five years of peace - as arbitrary.

Only because "time passing" as a lone factor is without a clear outcome/direction. At the end of BW, we don't really know that there will be peace because the assumption that there was actual peace in those 5 years was retroactively gained from WoL. How do we know the reprieve that Kerrigan gives wasn't only just intended to be a week? What's stopping one from not thinking this? Massive changes in status quo happen in the span of 2 years, just imagine what could happen in 5 years. But no, in WoL everything has stayed conveniently stock still in terms of status quo in all that time. If that were the case, why bother having 5 years pass at all?

I was going to say that they hadn't necessarily suffered irrecoverable damage because they managed to evacuate through the Warp Gate, but Aldaris does say that they are bereft of their great fleet from the very first mission, so you are correct. These improbable recoveries are more widespread in Brood War than even I had imagined.

It's quite depressing isn't it? Can you see now why I've been anxious about LotV and how they might represent the Protoss? Sure, they are due for a win but at this point and all that they've suffered, is it even realistically feasible?

Ah, but where does it categorically state that Mengsk's Dominion was in an irrecoverable state after Omega? In fact, does it not specifically state that he was going to rebuild?

What makes you think that regaining a fleet is the same as reconstituting his system of government/rule over other Terrans? He lost all his people to the UED first and then the remaining to Kerrigan later and he only has himself to rely on all the way up to Omega. The Dominion as a ruling force, like the Confederacy before it, was deemed irrecoverable since True Colours and Omega never says anything about him being technically able to rule over Terrans again. The epilogue says he "plans to reconstruct" which he can conceivably do, but whether he is actually able to plan it to fruition is another. Given his track record of failing at things, it didn't seem likely.

Nah, I've got no reason to believe that Selendis's fleet in that mission was a significant portion of the Protoss forces. They clearly did not have much vested interest in Haven and fighting Raynor.

How can you say this? The Protoss are an endangered species at this point given their heavy losses in Sc1/BW and yet she can somehow squander more lives over what amounts to a pissing contest. They lost multiple ships (Void-Rays and Carriers) and a Mothership (a supposedly rare and powerful Protoss artifact of antiquity) in that exchange and you can somehow blow that off as being "no big deal"? Also given the supposed power ratio being in favour of the Protoss given their technological superiority and being led by an Executor of the fleet, having them lose to Raynor is pretty damning.

They were not informed that the Terrans possessed a Deus ex Machina device, without which the attack is suicidal folly. They've already attempted the whole sending their fleets business in Omega, and it didn't work out. There is no apparent reason why another attempt would be more successful. In fact, Arcturus didn't think that endeavour was a good idea either.

Protoss don't need to be informed. They can eavesdrop through mind-reading and use of observers. How do we know that the Protoss haven't been keeping an eye on the Tal'Darim or know what the artifacts are and what they're capable of? Besides, they have a friend in Raynor who could've easily asked for their help or wondered what he was doing invading Char.

[FanaticTemplar]

This was more or less what I was getting at. Because the writers decided to go the familiar route by using Raynor as the main character, you have things like Mengsk being obliged to being written in there as well. This was made worse when it was quite clear that Mengsk's character in WoL had even less material to play with than Raynor.

Sure. Though I do think Mengsk's confrontation with Raynor via hologram above Char is one of the better moments in the story.

Kind of. Much like it would've been nice to explore how the Zerg got so overpowered that they could still overrun Shakuras (the home of their deadliest enemy!) without the Overmind, I would've liked an exploration of Mengsk's recovery rather than just have it saying it was just a done deal and that he bore no scars from BW. Seemed like a missed opportunity that was worth investigating compared to what we got with WoL.

Sure.

Only because "time passing" as a lone factor is without a clear outcome/direction. At the end of BW, we don't really know that there will be peace because the assumption that there was actual peace in those 5 years was retroactively gained from WoL. How do we know the reprieve that Kerrigan gives wasn't only just intended to be a week? What's stopping one from not thinking this? Massive changes in status quo happen in the span of 2 years, just imagine what could happen in 5 years. But no, in WoL everything has stayed conveniently stock still in terms of status quo in all that time. If that were the case, why bother having 5 years pass at all?

Kerrigan says she intends to test their mettle, so obviously they need to have the opportunity to regain their strength.

It's quite depressing isn't it? Can you see now why I've been anxious about LotV and how they might represent the Protoss? Sure, they are due for a win but at this point and all that they've suffered, is it even realistically feasible?

I don't know. The Protoss basically not appearing for two games is incredibly damaging.

What makes you think that regaining a fleet is the same as reconstituting his system of government/rule over other Terrans? He lost all his people to the UED first and then the remaining to Kerrigan later and he only has himself to rely on all the way up to Omega. The Dominion as a ruling force, like the Confederacy before it, was deemed irrecoverable since True Colours and Omega never says anything about him being technically able to rule over Terrans again. The epilogue says he "plans to reconstruct" which he can conceivably do, but whether he is actually able to plan it to fruition is another. Given his track record of failing at things, it didn't seem likely.

See, there you go switching your standards again. With Tassadar's death it's "where does it categorically state that Tassadar died?" But with Mengsk being in an irrecoverable state, it's "well, can you prove that it wasn't? I mean, aside from his ability to conjure an end-game fleet from midair."

How can you say this? The Protoss are an endangered species at this point given their heavy losses in Sc1/BW and yet she can somehow squander more lives over what amounts to a pissing contest. They lost multiple ships (Void-Rays and Carriers) and a Mothership (a supposedly rare and powerful Protoss artifact of antiquity) in that exchange and you can somehow blow that off as being "no big deal"? Also given the supposed power ratio being in favour of the Protoss given their technological superiority and being led by an Executor of the fleet, having them lose to Raynor is pretty damning.

The Protoss basically sent a single Purifier with a small escort to cleanse some unimportant world that was close to their territory. They decided it wasn't worth it after Raynor displayed his intent and ability to defend the planet.

Protoss don't need to be informed. They can eavesdrop through mind-reading and use of observers. How do we know that the Protoss haven't been keeping an eye on the Tal'Darim or know what the artifacts are and what they're capable of? Besides, they have a friend in Raynor who could've easily asked for their help or wondered what he was doing invading Char.

But Raynor didn't. Your assertion that the Protoss should know everything is reaching.

[Turalyon]

See, there you go switching your standards again. With Tassadar's death it's "where does it categorically state that Tassadar died?" But with Mengsk being in an irrecoverable state, it's "well, can you prove that it wasn't? I mean, aside from his ability to conjure an end-game fleet from midair."

Gathering a fleet is the least indicative thing of one's strength when someone like Raynor, a person that you classify as being weak/ a similar "irrecoverable state, can do such a thing (as he demonstrates in Sc1 several times) without batting so much as an eyelid himself. Mengsk's "irrecoverable state" is in reference to his ability to create a government that can put a stranglehold on all Terran political circles with nothing, not his ability to put-together some mercenary group.

The Protoss basically sent a single Purifier with a small escort to cleanse some unimportant world that was close to their territory. They decided it wasn't worth it after Raynor displayed his intent and ability to defend the planet.

Destroying a Protoss purifier is not something any regular Terran can often boast about... especially one commanded by someone who is supposed to be the equivalent of the top-most general of that alien hierarchy.

Besides, it doesn't account for the fact that they lost to what would be a comparatively weaker opponent. That they had to lose more (and by now precious) Protoss lives to settle a slight difference of opinion is ludicrous.

Your assertion that the Protoss should know everything is reaching.

Raynor and co weren't exactly sure the artifact could work either. Didn't stop them making an effort. It wouldn't take much for any Protoss to just have a look and see, does it?

Either way, due to their recent history the distinct lack of Protoss presence here is more likely indicative of their general weakness rather than that they were disinterested (which is bullcrap since they can already go so far as to waste lives trying to stop Raynor just to burn some worthless world) or somehow not know (when they are the most technologically advanced and psychic race).

[FanaticTemplar]

Gathering a fleet is the least indicative thing of one's strength when someone like Raynor, a person that you classify as being weak/ a similar "irrecoverable state, can do such a thing (as he demonstrates in Sc1 several times) without batting so much as an eyelid himself. Mengsk's "irrecoverable state" is in reference to his ability to create a government that can put a stranglehold on all Terran political circles with nothing, not his ability to put-together some mercenary group.

Hold your horses, when does Raynor ever conjure up a fleet comparable to Mengsk's from nothing?

Destroying a Protoss purifier is not something any regular Terran can often boast about... especially one commanded by someone who is supposed to be the equivalent of the top-most general of that alien hierarchy.

Hence why we're following the story of Jim Raynor, and not just "any regular Terran".

Besides, it doesn't account for the fact that they lost to what would be a comparatively weaker opponent. That they had to lose more (and by now precious) Protoss lives to settle a slight difference of opinion is ludicrous.

The fact that it's ridiculous wasn't the point though.

Raynor and co weren't exactly sure the artifact could work either. Didn't stop them making an effort. It wouldn't take much for any Protoss to just have a look and see, does it?

Either way, due to their recent history the distinct lack of Protoss presence here is more likely indicative of their general weakness rather than that they were disinterested (which is bullcrap since they can already go so far as to waste lives trying to stop Raynor just to burn some worthless world) or somehow not know (when they are the most technologically advanced and psychic race).

Again you assert that Protoss should be omniscient. There is no basis for that. This goes beyond stretching, with these kinds of leaps I could argue absolutely anything.

[Turalyon]

Hold your horses, when does Raynor ever conjure up a fleet comparable to Mengsk's from nothing?

In Sc1's Eye of the Storm after having been crushed by Kerrigan on Char in Agent of the Swarm.

Hence why we're following the story of Jim Raynor, and not just "any regular Terran".

A man that supposedly has few resources at his disposal, is supposedly a drunk and a washout having lost to Mengsk over the five years up until WoL. Yeah, the Protoss really schooled Raynor with their show of strength didn't they?

The fact that it's ridiculous wasn't the point though.

It certainly doesn't help. That they lost at all (don't kid yourself, the Protoss lost numerous and major assets to Raynor in open combat before they even considered retreating) even with the deck stacked in their favour is already bad enough.

Again you assert that Protoss should be omniscient.

Not at all. It doesn't take a genius to just observe what was going on in the sector at the time. Char emptied itself of the majority of Zerg forces and half the Dominion fleet flew there to bludgeon it's way to get onto it's surface. If the Protoss can't see that, they really must be blind and weak. Afterall, the Protoss don't know that Kerrigan can only be stopped by the artifact and is some sort of undying god - it would have been a ripe opportunity for them to have sent some Dark Templar to help at the least. As I said, they've got more than enough motivation against Kerrigan to try something especially when the Zerg are out for what seems to be indiscriminate blood. The fact that we don't see any display from them is that they must be either incapable and/or scared - all of which points to weakness of some kind.

[ragnarok]

Raynor and co weren't exactly sure the artifact could work either. Didn't stop them making an effort. It wouldn't take much for any Protoss to just have a look and see, does it?

Either way, due to their recent history the distinct lack of Protoss presence here is more likely indicative of their general weakness rather than that they were disinterested (which is bullcrap since they can already go so far as to waste lives trying to stop Raynor just to burn some worthless world) or somehow not know (when they are the most technologically advanced and psychic race).

The Protoss wouldn't be able to look at it. Remember what Dr. Hanson said to Raynor: that the artifacts could suck the life right out of a Protoss, in theory anyways.

The lack of interest in Xel'Naga relics depends on if it's Khalai or Nerazim. Remember, after Khas established the Khala, it was said that the Protoss didn't need the Xel'Naga anymore, but merely each other. In comparison, the Dark Templar didn't see it that way, they continued to worship and study the Xel'Naga to determine what they wanted for the Protoss people (this was first explained in the Shadow of the Xel'Naga book in 2001).

[FanaticTemplar]

In Sc1's Eye of the Storm after having been crushed by Kerrigan on Char in Agent of the Swarm.

That's strictly gameplay.

A man that supposedly has few resources at his disposal, is supposedly a drunk and a washout having lost to Mengsk over the five years up until WoL. Yeah, the Protoss really schooled Raynor with their show of strength didn't they?

The man the Protoss admire as a great warrior, is the most enduring thorn in the Terran Dominion's side, and the Queen of Blades recognises as uncannily resourceful and too dangerous to allow to live? That's the guy you're trying to portray as a loser in this argument?

It certainly doesn't help. That they lost at all (don't kid yourself, the Protoss lost numerous and major assets to Raynor in open combat before they even considered retreating) even with the deck stacked in their favour is already bad enough.

Overcoming incredible odds is the basics of an enthralling heroic narrative. The exact nature of the Protoss' losses is unclear. Incidentally, what are you trying to prove about Mengsk's recovery with this talk about Selendis' fleet? I'm afraid I may have lost track of this part of the conversation.

Not at all. It doesn't take a genius to just observe what was going on in the sector at the time. Char emptied itself of the majority of Zerg forces and half the Dominion fleet flew there to bludgeon it's way to get onto it's surface. If the Protoss can't see that, they really must be blind and weak. Afterall, the Protoss don't know that Kerrigan can only be stopped by the artifact and is some sort of undying god - it would have been a ripe opportunity for them to have sent some Dark Templar to help at the least. As I said, they've got more than enough motivation against Kerrigan to try something especially when the Zerg are out for what seems to be indiscriminate blood. The fact that we don't see any display from them is that they must be either incapable and/or scared - all of which points to weakness of some kind.

No, the fact that they don't show up is evidence of the fact that they don't show up. You have no basis for the motives you presume.