Fan's Interpretation - The Shaping of Tarsonis City

[solidsamurai]

Tarsonis was the capitol of the Terran Confederacy and its destruction brought about its immediate end.

There was a lot that made up Tarsonis, rich and poor. In the beginning, it was rural and feudal. Men had to scour the landscape for fertile land.

Eventually, religions developed in worship to ATLAS. A political party 'ATLAS Power' was formed in favour of it, until one of the many data logs brought forth the superiority of secularism and it's infallibility if it were 'handed over to a good leader'. This wasn't a manifesto, but more of a stream of consciousness put together from a mangle of notes attached to various files, written by Douran Routhe himself.

Eventually, secularism began to rule the town of Tarsonis. The banner of the old family, in its castle, brought war to the churches of ATLAS Power. Even in the beginning, it was an information war. Through thuggery, the united barony of Tarsonis controlled access to ATLAS. Self ascribed 'scientists' from around the globe would pay tribute to search its logs, to learn about empiricism and scientific law and all of its bounties. People went from piety to sophisitcation. The barons used its money, from taxes and tribute to hire mercenaries, and also many peasants from across the land began to salute secularism, just as the old UPL had once enforced. Although religion still existed, it was no longer as organized, and militant religion was financially impossible, since the ruling elite were all secular.

Tarsonis' barony later began to codify language - english, first the language of the elite, became that of the burghers of Tarsonis Town. English was the language of ATLAS, and as such, many simply followed that example, although other earth-derived languages of local vernacular continued to exist in smaller groups.

Population boom was early, as the heavy plow became common place just a few years after 'colonization' of the planet. Other towns developed and fed into Tarsonis, the largest town of all.

Industrialization was the result of a concerted effort to interpret the treasures of ATLAS. It was gradual, as many eccentric barons horded its secrets, espousing upon drunken technical rants only during the many palace parties that were thrown. Barons began to war with one another, as they grew fat and selfish and jealous of the grandeur of the other guy's palace, and that alone prevented a spread of information. All in all, it was about 100 years after colonization that industrialization was full tilt. Tarsonis had grown into a city, and some number of civil wars later, it formed a mock republic with a 'head'. But the head was really an emperor.

In a short amount of time, other kingdoms were swallowed and the empire acquired enough power to fully exploit the landscape. Before long, the enitre world benefited from trade and unfettered access to machines. But there still wasn't peace. Provincial rebellions occured, border kingdoms wanted access to ATLAS, naval powers threatened from the sea.

Industrialization caused slaughter never before imagined. Soon enough, a nuclear arms race between two empires. Four bombs were dropped at separate places in the world. Tarsonis was affected by the fall out. But no blast wave ever reached the shining city.

After all, no one was willing to threaten the existence of ATLAS, for it offered untold power and riches - the reason for any conflict. No terrorist could blow it up, for it was too guarded. From time to time, hackers would grab some data or someone would turncoat to another power - after all, it's secrets were ungaurded. Eventually, ATLAS did shut down though.

109 years after colonization, man had taken to the stars. Private enterprise grew space exploration and extra terrestrial mining into a great industry and Tarsonis city profited from it. The gravitic drive was probably the last of the knowledge that could be gleaned from ATLAS - it was the last of the data that they had managed to download from ATLAS' stores until the AI kicked the bucket. It took a lot to make one, but 156 years later, interstellar colonies were cropping up throughout the Korprulu Sector.

After 40 years of negotiations, a pact between empires formed the confederacy, uniting all interstellar colonies and the world of Tarsonis itself. Naturally, exploitation of the landscape went full tilt. The confederacy was said to be a republic, but it was secretly ruled by an oligarchy that only gave its ear to the wealthy.

Unlike the Dominion, confederate propaganda never developed any sort of nationalistic ideology, and some of it was even contradictory (attempts were made to frame one Old Family or rich person, or another). However one message remained clear - that the rich were powerful and unstoppable. Naturally, people had to accept that. In a way, it even gave people a sort of freedom of speech; who was to punish what one person said, when it was probably just a parrot of something going on in the media? However, active rebel factions (less exposed to 'urban life') would frequently appear on the outskirts, especially among the poor and privately funded colonies.

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Tarsonis was very overpopulated around this time. The downtown core covered a large area, and traffic congestion was so common that people often walked around on foot. You could find massive crowds in the downtown at any hour of the day, except after midnight (13:00am or 2600 hours, Tarsonis has 26 hour days). The rest grew to urban sprawl. Skyscrapers were common. As the population grew, the only room for living was up and apartment buildings grew massive. Massive walkways in the sky connected skyscrapers. Free ways were built over free ways, which were built over free ways. Free way stacking could be seen in many sprawls.

Many of the roads were bought by corporations and tolled - this alone made many old families very wealthy, and they were able to start their own companies that could be paid to reliably groom their own estates (some of which included skyscrapers), and their own security, spies and spyhunters. By the early 25th century, underground public transit was common among wealthier folk, while the poor had to live in the sprawl, right next to shiny locked-up complexes, whose basements were connected to underground luxury markets and orgy clubs.

Most of the trade was interstellar and interplanetary and this eventually grew the confederacy into a network made up of thirteen core worlds.

Timeline

- 2259; Nagglfar crash lands on Tarsonis.
- 2402; ATLAS shuts down.
- 2413; The gravitic warp drive is reinvented on Tarsonis (or near it).
- 2439; The Confederacy is formed in the interest of controlling nuclear arms availability among nations, as well as grabbing a firm hold on the colonies in the face of fierce competition from Moria, and the continued existence of pirates in the space lanes. This brings 1 billion+ people into the fold.
- 2485; Corporate interest (and therefore, confederate interest, since there's confederate investors and taxable income) over claims upon Char and various other worlds vs. the claims of Kel Morian Combine (itself, an oligarchy of megacorporations), leads to the Guild Wars.
- 2500; Death of The Confederacy. In it's place, the Terran Dominion empire.

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It seems silly to me that the confederacy would just be allowed to exploit other planets for 100+ years. An empire can get rich much quicker than that, and progress is very rapid around the time that the warp drive gets re-invented (the golden age of Tarsonis happened earlier, I'd suspect). So yes, this is my 'fan interpretation'. It may be wrong by canon, but if I were to rewrite the SC universe, this'd at least be my take on things.

Oh yeah, and I scaled the population down a bit. 1 billion people is still enough to wage epic space battles on a daily basis.

[Einharjar]

I'd imagine that these "Empires" and "Kingdoms" were the descendants of what was known as the Old Families?

Concerning that the Cargo these carriers held were not just criminals and mutants, but also rebels and traitors; you could be looking at some other options there too. I like the idea of using ATLAS and the Data Banks within it to access basically, Earthen dictionaries and designs. However, the stumbling block would be infrastructure and maybe you could explain this by having some of the Rebel's and Traitors be possible leaders, philanthropists and scientists from Earth before they were condemned by the UPL. Once these individuals create the needed infrastructure (stable power grids, precision machinery and process developments) recreating things like Gravitic Drives will fall into place.

I also want to see more details on the Old Families. They wouldn't be called "Old Families" if they weren't important. Write in a connection between the modern Old Families we see in the current Lore and have their traces explained and I'd be pleased. Some good stuff here.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd imagine that these "Empires" and "Kingdoms" were the descendants of what was known as the Old Families?

Concerning that the Cargo these carriers held were not just criminals and mutants, but also rebels and traitors; you could be looking at some other options there too. I like the idea of using ATLAS and the Data Banks within it to access basically, Earthen dictionaries and designs. However, the stumbling block would be infrastructure and maybe you could explain this by having some of the Rebel's and Traitors be possible leaders, philanthropists and scientists from Earth before they were condemned by the UPL. Once these individuals create the needed infrastructure (stable power grids, precision machinery and process developments) recreating things like Gravitic Drives will fall into place.

I also want to see more details on the Old Families. They wouldn't be called "Old Families" if they weren't important. Write in a connection between the modern Old Families we see in the current Lore and have their traces explained and I'd be pleased. Some good stuff here.

[solidsamurai]

However, the stumbling block would be infrastructure and maybe you could explain this by having some of the Rebel's and Traitors be possible leaders, philanthropists and scientists from Earth before they were condemned by the UPL. Once these individuals create the needed infrastructure (stable power grids, precision machinery and process developments) recreating things like Gravitic Drives will fall into place.

The infrastructure is already explained. It started out feudal, and just naturally grew from there into something chaotic. Even now, there's terran living without basic necessities like food and water.

The old families are really whatever you want them to be - rich folk that supposedly claim to be 'commanders' of the initial voyage to Tarsonis, even though the voyage was completely controlled by the AI.

AKA powerful people with a ruthless reputation (they don't have to be ruthless, some of them just have ruthless ancestors) that use propaganda to create an image of their divinity in a 'modern' environment. Not everyone believes the Old Family legacy, but they all acknowledge the iron fist.

'd imagine that these "Empires" and "Kingdoms" were the descendants of what was known as the Old Families?

Not if one dynasty has another murdered.

Once these individuals create the needed infrastructure (stable power grids, precision machinery and process developments) recreating things like Gravitic Drives will fall into place.

This is just a result of free market principle. Corporation A sees something profitable, so they develop one thing. Corporation B decides to development something else to compete with Corp A. Corporation A invests money into a secret project. Corporation C discovers it and there's a leak. Corporation B responds in kind. Literally every major industrial invention was the result of a desire for bigger profits. You don't need public education, if a corporation can educate it's own employees. Naturally, this leads to more tyranny - but hey, that's the StarCraft universe! Why else would there be so many rebel factions and pirates? What better way to explain the corruption ("It's not him that's corrupted, it's the whole system!"). Whether any characters within the universe see it a different way is entirely irrelevant (they're just trying to rationalize what makes their existence worthwhile).


Philanthropy doesn't need to exist at all, though I don't doubt that it does. You can find a benevolent soul anywhere, though in less places where the environment is condescending or ruthless.

[Einharjar]

The infrastructure is already explained. It started out feudal, and just naturally grew from there into something chaotic. Even now, there's terran living without basic necessities like food and water.

The old families are really whatever you want them to be - rich folk that supposedly claim to be 'commanders' of the initial voyage to Tarsonis, even though the voyage was completely controlled by the AI.

AKA powerful people with a ruthless reputation (they don't have to be ruthless, some of them just have ruthless ancestors) that use propaganda to create an image of their divinity in a 'modern' environment. Not everyone believes the Old Family legacy, but they all acknowledge the iron fist.

No, actually you didn't go into much detail here. There's little mention of the rise of Aristocratic organizations at all. Corporate structures can be one thing but the Old Families more or less resemble the conspiracy theories of today with the large benefactors, bank owners and investors like that of the Rothshields of today; some family group who has enough money to where they own the conglomerates but never actually operate them. Infrastructure needs to be created before one takes over in this nature. In the example I gave (Rothshields) Political Intruige and clever strategy put them in the position they are in now and it took them about 200 years; several generations; to accomplish that.

This is just a result of free market principle. Corporation A sees something profitable, so they develop one thing. Corporation B decides to development something else to compete with Corp A. Corporation A invests money into a secret project. Corporation C discovers it and there's a leak. Corporation B responds in kind. Literally every major industrial invention was the result of a desire for bigger profits. You don't need public education, if a corporation can educate it's own employees. Naturally, this leads to more tyranny - but hey, that's the StarCraft universe! Why else would there be so many rebel factions and pirates? What better way to explain the corruption ("It's not him that's corrupted, it's the whole system!"). Whether any characters within the universe see it a different way is entirely irrelevant (they're just trying to rationalize what makes their existence worthwhile).

This actually sounds more like Umoja which is a large source of Corporate developement. Hence why most of the science, education and R&D happens there. Hell, it's also the reason why you see them more or less, Neutral between the Confederates and the Kel-Morians. They directly rival the Old Families due to their gambit; which is why the Confeds often tried to intimidate them into the joining them. Never works however.

Philanthropy doesn't need to exist at all, though I don't doubt that it does. You can find a benevolent soul anywhere, though in less places where the environment is condescending or ruthless.

Some one justifiably "nice" enough is one who can control the masses into giving in to something they'd want. They are Benefactors in ways that can lead to the development of the Old Families. You can start out being "charitable" but easily end up just being Benefactors; which simply means you're investing in a single cause... doesn't matter if it's good or not.

[solidsamurai]

There's little mention of the rise of Aristocratic organizations at all.

The barons?

Corporate structures can be one thing but the Old Families more or less resemble the conspiracy theories

Corporate structures create a larger aristocracy, just like in real life.

The way I wrote it seems to match all the intrigue you seem to be looking for, unless there's something I really did miss. Unless there's a particular conspiracy theory you want to be included?

some family group who has enough money to where they own the conglomerates but never actually operate them.

That's how it is in real life, and how it would be in the starcraft universe (why not?). An investor doesn't operate a conglomerate - they just sell when the stock goes down. The same goes for majority shareholders (the 'owners'), except that they reserve the right to completely change up the company - which includes dividing it up, selling it off, and effectively firing employees through that (depending on the laws of the nation the company operates within), etc. This isn't necessarily operating the company, so much as ruling the company. They don't handle it's operations and they don't want to, since it's usually a lot of work.

Infrastructure needs to be created before one takes over in this nature.

The infrastructure is created by the company being there.

Say a company wants to mine minerals. They build a mineral depot, where the workers retire to. The depot is close to where shafts are dug and minerals are dragged up via mine carts or whatever technology is available.

Conditions are initially miserable. Sooner or later, a town quickly develops near the mineral depot. Initial businesses include taverns and bars and prostitution. More businesses crop up, and eventually you see big things like casinos. Eventually the town no longer depends solely on traffic of workers - it becomes a place of tourism, because of the casinos. Roads are paved, schools are built because families retire there. All sorts of other jobs are created to manage the 'infrastructure', because schools and taverns and strip joints need plumbing and roads and electricity.

So really, infrastructure is just a result of technology, the economic cycle, and the jobs existing to begin with (being created due to the economic cycle, or the demand for them). It isn't anything else. It isn't throwing money into a pot and expecting it to grow. That's about as abstract as it gets.

Another way to think of it - Why would people demand electricity? Did it exist before? If it didn't, people wouldn't know about it. Infrastructure is a result of demand and the affordability to create it. Corporations can afford it, so corporations are the initial kicker in starting a new society, usually by pursuing one 'first tier' business (ie. mining or forestry), that less wealthy business is incapable of doing (since the start up cost is massive), and then other things lead from there. Yes, ghost towns can often result when business dries up early, but that happens in real life too.

This actually sounds more like Umoja which is a large source of Corporate developement. Hence why most of the science, education and R&D happens there.

Umoja doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, they're democratic but how does that necessitate better education? Is the government paying for everything? Seems silly, sure they've got a moral high ground because they're more liberal (which really is just a moral bonus, nothing to do with education or handling of money), but I also provided a cynical take on Umoja that I could put here later on.

Hell, it's also the reason why you see them more or less, Neutral between the Confederates and the Kel-Morians.

Because they're paranoid and lack incentive? Warmongering isn't a result of stupidity or ignorance, necessarily. Though most of us on this forum are aware blizzard likes to paint in broad strokes.

I find it hard to believe that Umojans can run a stable democracy in the midst of so much danger. No government in the real world has ever reacted in such a way. Even 'free world' countries like britain and the US are known to have pretty much always taken authoritative measures during war. So there's no way that Umoja can be infallible good guys. I feel the same way about the Gallente Federation in the Eve Online universe.

And don't quote star trek either! I'm sure there's been plenty of episodes where the utopian Federation of Planets has commited some authoritative crap. It's just human nature, and we won't ever escape it until we can evolve into a higher life form.

Some one justifiably "nice" enough is one who can control the masses into giving in to something they'd want. They are Benefactors in ways that can lead to the development of the Old Families. You can start out being "charitable" but easily end up just being Benefactors; which simply means you're investing in a single cause... doesn't matter if it's good or not.

I think what I said was good enough.

And a benefactor that wants to make someone fabulously wealthy and powerful is going to be in it for something else besides being a nice guy. Certainly, it's not moral - otherwise they'd just start up a soup kitchen instead.

[Einharjar]

The barons?

I'd like to see specifics! I'd love for these Baron's to be fleshed out to bearing the names of the Old Families we've come to know in 2500 AD.

Corporate structures create a larger aristocracy, just like in real life.

The way I wrote it seems to match all the intrigue you seem to be looking for, unless there's something I really did miss. Unless there's a particular conspiracy theory you want to be included?

Corporate structure creates a Bureaucracy, not so much an Aristocracy. Aristocracy is the elite which resides on the foundations of several Corporations or at least a very large one.
I don't believe you're missing much. I just simply want to see it more fleshed out. More details on the dealings with ATLAST for example being used to gain power and purchase ownership and loyalties of rival City States. Just more details. That's all.

Also note that in the later years, the Confederates were very forthcoming when it came to their economic agenda to secure mining worlds. You're plot line seems to stop at around 150 years. Maybe we can load details into the ventures AFTER Atlas?

That's how it is in real life, and how it would be in the starcraft universe (why not?). An investor doesn't operate a conglomerate - they just sell when the stock goes down. The same goes for majority shareholders (the 'owners'), except that they reserve the right to completely change up the company - which includes dividing it up, selling it off, and effectively firing employees through that (depending on the laws of the nation the company operates within), etc. This isn't necessarily operating the company, so much as ruling the company. They don't handle it's operations and they don't want to, since it's usually a lot of work.

Haha, you made it sound like Board of Directors are afraid of sweating. I know that's not what you may have meant but I thought it was funny XD.
They work hard in their own right; managing financials blows. Trust me. When it comes to operating the Conglomerate, they do have more "control" of it's "operation" as a whole however. Conglomerates will willingly have their sub-franchises compete against each other to avoid monopolies for example or to generate internal revenue to make up for it's size. We see this today and the only people who create these plots are their "Directors". In general, these operations are perfect for sneeky, greedy conspiring details that I thirst for in your interpritation.
I guess reason why I'm hounding this is because the ability to create a conglomerate is significant in of itself. Conglomerates were actually illegal at one point in time (thanks to FDR). Clinton reversed that with one of his economic builds. FDR's decision to forbid such bussiness structure was to prevent another 1920-30s setup for a down fall; where corporations would become too big to fail and cause massive depressions in the economic cycles.

Thus, in the SC universe, it's an important factor that conglomerates are even allowed because that signifies their view of business practices; regardless of what it may cost everyone else.

The infrastructure is created by the company being there.

Say a company wants to mine minerals. They build a mineral depot, where the workers retire to. The depot is close to where shafts are dug and minerals are dragged up via mine carts or whatever technology is available.

Conditions are initially miserable. Sooner or later, a town quickly develops near the mineral depot. Initial businesses include taverns and bars and prostitution. More businesses crop up, and eventually you see big things like casinos. Eventually the town no longer depends solely on traffic of workers - it becomes a place of tourism, because of the casinos. Roads are paved, schools are built because families retire there. All sorts of other jobs are created to manage the 'infrastructure', because schools and taverns and strip joints need plumbing and roads and electricity.

So really, infrastructure is just a result of technology, the economic cycle, and the jobs existing to begin with (being created due to the economic cycle, or the demand for them). It isn't anything else. It isn't throwing money into a pot and expecting it to grow. That's about as abstract as it gets.

Another way to think of it - Why would people demand electricity? Did it exist before? If it didn't, people wouldn't know about it. Infrastructure is a result of demand and the affordability to create it. Corporations can afford it, so corporations are the initial kicker in starting a new society, usually by pursuing one 'first tier' business (ie. mining or forestry), that less wealthy business is incapable of doing (since the start up cost is massive), and then other things lead from there. Yes, ghost towns can often result when business dries up early, but that happens in real life too.

Exactly! That's a great start! I just want some details, 'tis all. Lets be creative and make company names, owned by this baron and their focus!
You've already got me started on this myself; where one Baron name (future old family) relied on owning cheap architectural production acquisitions and who used their growing hedge fund to also secure a realty market in what we'd call "Projects". They'd pair those "Project" subdivisions next to their franchised production companies and create whole sub-urban areas where people are forced to only work there in order survive. Pay is low, but job security is higher than everything else and working for this "family of companies" owned by one Old Family grants workers "discounts" and said "Realty Projects". It forces the labor to be low cost and suppressed. Perfect for that, nasty grit and greed we'd want to fill the SC universe with. Also a perfect area for your rebellions.

Umoja doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, they're democratic but how does that necessitate better education? Is the government paying for everything? Seems silly, sure they've got a moral high ground because they're more liberal (which really is just a moral bonus, nothing to do with education or handling of money), but I also provided a cynical take on Umoja that I could put here later on.

In the SC1 manual, they are regarded as being a huge source of tech development and economic power. They are no where near as large as the Confederacy but they are non the less, as I described. They are fiercely independent with a booming economic structure and use technology as their backbone of growth. The Umojan Protectorate is basically SCs Japan or South Korea. They may not have the size (confedorate/dominion) or raw resources (kel-morian combine) but they have a BRILLIANT infrastructure that enables high levels of education, fosters technological advance which in turn creates prosperous growth.

Because they're paranoid and lack incentive? Warmongering isn't a result of stupidity or ignorance, necessarily. Though most of us on this forum are aware blizzard likes to paint in broad strokes.

I find it hard to believe that Umojans can run a stable democracy in the midst of so much danger. No government in the real world has ever reacted in such a way. Even 'free world' countries like britain and the US are known to have pretty much always taken authoritative measures during war. So there's no way that Umoja can be infallible good guys. I feel the same way about the Gallente Federation in the Eve Online universe.

And don't quote star trek either! I'm sure there's been plenty of episodes where the utopian Federation of Planets has commited some authoritative crap. It's just human nature, and we won't ever escape it until we can evolve into a higher life form.

No worries, I'm not much of a Trekkie, haha!

The Umojan's stayed neutral due to "investing" in rebel leaders like Mengsk himself; actually. And even after their "alliance" with Mengsk, they STILL secured their independence as the Dominion rose; assuring that Arcturus's Empire never meddled with Umoja's culture.
Also note how this whole ordeal is LUCRATIVE to them. By assisting Mengsk and watching him succeed, they just secured a Despot a prime conduit to continue purchasing from the Protectorate. if the UP was actually Dominion, the Despot (Arcturus) could just force them into Military RnD as a branch or Government organization. However since the UP stayed independent even AFTER the Dominion's rise; they are left in tact and fruitful due to embracing a Industrial Military Complex that feeds not only themselves, but the Dominion as well.

[solidsamurai]

I'd like to see specifics! I'd love for these Baron's to be fleshed out to bearing the names of the Old Families we've come to know in 2500 AD.

Alright here yah go.


Old family lineage doesn't stretch very far beyond a second cousin within the family. This is because every family has generally agreed on a notion of blood purity, which limits the inheritance opportunities of bastards or the marrying of 'new rich'. Some nobles have to maintain a good reputation and so they often avoid 'favouritism' with their employees by giving good positions to bastards or (in the case of some nobles), even their own children. Many nobles are spoiled and have lived a life of comfort, never rising to a position of trust from their family's head.

This has resultantly disvalued the Old Family titles with 'commoners' vs. that of the actual international dollar and taso. The only thing giving Old Family titles any legitimacy is the internalized noble culture - but it's clear that the corporate culture has gradually swallowed it up. Some nobles are distancing themselves from Tarsonis, purchasing estates in off-world colonies (orbital space station or peaceful rural backwater), while others hunker down in their skyscraper-conjoined palaces on Tarsonis itself.

Consequently, the past 70 years (up to 2500 Ce) has created some strain between the new rich and the nobility, with the increase in population and the cramped living spaces. To keep out commoners, Tarsonian nobles have financed increasingly large estates and palaces, but this has only put them more in the limelight. Some nobles, such as the Terras, have a chokehold over some big corporations, and have been able to insure their survival from that - yet, it's been known in the past that New Rich would finance terrorist operations, often targeting nobles of the Old Families.

Summary: Titles of inheritance aren't that valuable by about 2440 and onwards, due to the New Rich money overcoming it. Civil war is created more often over a desire for Old Family wealth and defiance of tradition. 'Rebellions' still happen for a variety of reasons - simple piracy from hot shots, subtle acts of 'terrorism' against nobles, defiance of the establishment created by New Rich or noble, colonial anger over taxes, championing the poor, injustice, etc. Yet, the Old Families survived until the fall of Tarsonis. When Tarsonis was reaved, all noble influence was lost, since any illusion of continued power had only cemented itself in the culture of Tarsonis. Eventually, Tarsonis would have rejected 'noble virtues' completely. Naturally, faith in dynasties and nobility was restored with the Terran Dominion. With that, confederate corporations and New Rich on all colonies and spacelanes, realizing that Mengsk was a powerful phenomenon, shut their mouths once again. Since then, Mengsk has kept a tight fist on them, and when he hired some of them to keep the media in line, they dutifully obliged as the implications wouldn't harm them much.