SCII Legacy of the Void

[Crazio]

I wonder what they will do with the units. I was watching a couple of 1v1, TvP and i feel like protoss has nothing vs terran when terran reach a point where they have mm ghost vikings and medics. Colossi are insta gipped, templars sniped and stalkers and zealots are just shit vs mm

[ragnarok]

I wonder what they will do with the units. I was watching a couple of 1v1, TvP and i feel like protoss has nothing vs terran when terran reach a point where they have mm ghost vikings and medics. Colossi are insta gipped, templars sniped and stalkers and zealots are just shit vs mm

That can be discussed in the huge multiplayer threads. Here we're only talking about the SINGLE PLAYER part.

[Turalyon]

There's way to little being revealed about Amon, my hope is more will be in the books to bridge HotS and LotV or something like that.

Although that would be nice for those who'd still care to follow it, I think the damage has already been done unfortunately. First impressions count and Amon's suffered greatly. Despite all the foreshadowing, he comes off as nothing more than a second-rate moustache-twirler.

Even with the Overmind's character and actions being subsumed by Amon, the original Overmind concept still feels like the more alien and scarier villain of the two.

So far it seems all Kerrigan's role is in the prophecy is simply to keep Amon from controlling the swarm, but as Narud told Kerrigan, Amon doesn't exactly NEED the swarm in order to have his plans pass.

Yes, it's very "mechanical" and "by-the-numbers" in its implementation isn't it? It's what happens when you implement things like prophecies.

That being said, it makes me wonder: did Zeratul actually know that Amon had been revived by HotS? Him being in the shadows makes it hard to know what's going on there.

It can go either way depending on what the writers want. I can't see why not though - Zeratul seems to act like the Keeper of Knowledge so far going to both Raynor and Kerrigan and imparting information that the audience (or anyone really) wouldn't know at the time. It would seem strange that Zeratul himself would know this stuff if not for the fact that he's supposed to have spent the years searching and finding info, so something as trifle as Amon being revived should be something he should know. Afterall, he seems to be able to slip in and out of nowhere and can find the "elusive" Raynor easily in WoL and somehow bypass the numerous hordes of Zerg to confront Kerrigan in HotS.

Besides, at this point, it doesn't really matter if he knows or not because it has no real bearing against the overall threat - the Protoss are still under-matched against the Hybrids even before they knew anything specifically about Amon.

She did it because as she told him on the Moros, he was the only one who believed in her, who saw there was MORE to her than just a monster and mass murderer.

However, during all these years, she has NEVER shown him that. And so, for that reason, Kerrigan felt that even if Raynor no longer believed in her, she had to honor the faith he put in during all those years. If she does not, then it all his sacrifices WOULD have been for nothing.

As you've rightly said, Kerrigan has never shown Raynor to be anything but a monster and a mass murderer. In BW, that is the ultimate betrayal of faith that Raynor could ever endure. To think that Raynor would ever see past is one thing because that makes him either Jesus Christ or someone with a screw loose. More, to think that Kerrigan thinks that Raynor sees "more" in her is a big assumption on everyone's part.

One has to initially buy the assumption that their bond was always completely unbreakable for this interpretation to work. Of course, I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it wasn't earned properly and ad hoc.

For Kerrigan it was no different. Remember, at the beginning of the Flashpoint book, she didn't seek revenge against Mengsk. It was only after being constantly hunted by him that caused her to change her mind. But unlike Raynor, she had been used most of her life, and therefore she felt other than him, humanity was almost just like Mengsk, hence why she only gave slight regrets when it came to destroying the Dominion industrial worlds to prepare for the Korhal invasion.

The former (the not seeking revenge part) seems like a sudden character development coming out of nowhere, which it was I guess considering the magic artifact. Also, all it took was 3 weeks for Kerrigan to go from not wanting revenge on Mengsk and being Ok with it to then generalising that all of humanity is like Mengsk and hating them all except Raynor? Did she forget that Mengsk was still wanting her killed before she was deinfested and did she hate all humanity by extension then, too?

If anything, it 'd make more sense if she'd always just hated Mengsk and humanity right from when New Gettysburg happened and that she never changed at all after that. Course, that would make her suddenly still being in love with Raynor somewhat kinda forced... wait a minute, it already is. It's one thing to say Raynor was still in love with Kerrigan despite all she'd done, it's also quite another to say Kerrigan would also be reciprocal after all she went through.

That can be discussed in the huge multiplayer threads. Here we're only talking about the SINGLE PLAYER part.

Take it easy. He started this thread, he can ask whatever he wants in it.

[ragnarok]

Yes, it's very "mechanical" and "by-the-numbers" in its implementation isn't it? It's what happens when you implement things like prophecies.

This is why I believe Kerrigan would have no choice but to pull back from the suicide mission she originally planned on Amon because it's won't weaken him enough, and despite her duties to the swarm, she still has an obligation to protect Raynor as best she could.

Besides, at this point, it doesn't really matter if he knows or not because it has no real bearing against the overall threat - the Protoss are still under-matched against the Hybrids even before they knew anything specifically about Amon.

That's another thing that bothers me: we still don't know how big the hybrid army is. Regardless of how powerful Amon is, he can't be stupid enough to believe he alone can accomplish everything. Granted, the overwhelming numbers of the Zerg won't be enough against him, but he has to be smart enough to know that overwhelming numbers DO play a factor in warfare.

More, to think that Kerrigan thinks that Raynor sees "more" in her is a big assumption on everyone's part.

One has to initially buy the assumption that their bond was always completely unbreakable for this interpretation to work. Of course, I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it wasn't earned properly and ad hoc.

Well that's the problem. Literally all the way up to the "Believe in Me" cutscene, Raynor continued to believe Kerrigan would do the right thing, but even then it wasn't COMPLETELY shattered as Kerrigan thought it had been. If it had, Raynor would have pulled the trigger on her before she even finished the sentence.

In that regard, at least some part of him still believed in her even then. Still, it wasn't exactly smart of Kerrigan to have asked Raynor in the first place for that cutscene. That DID kind of give her a form of an "entitlement" attitude.

The former (the not seeking revenge part) seems like a sudden character development coming out of nowhere, which it was I guess considering the magic artifact. Also, all it took was 3 weeks for Kerrigan to go from not wanting revenge on Mengsk and being Ok with it to then generalising that all of humanity is like Mengsk and hating them all except Raynor? Did she forget that Mengsk was still wanting her killed before she was deinfested and did she hate all humanity by extension then, too?

Oh I'm sure she knew that she'd still be hunted down by Mengsk, she knew as long as he was alive that would happen. But don't forget what happened at the end of the Flashpoint book. Raynor spoke to her about going to the Umojan facility to get the help she needed. Kerrigan initially resisted, but gave in for him.

Thus most of what she had done, but didn't want to do, had only been done for him. Even the whole primal infestation had been done to avenge his death, and then to rescue him when she knew he was still alive.

Of course, Kerrigan knew that Raynor would NEVER accept an explanation along those lines.

Take it easy. He started this thread, he can ask whatever he wants in it.

Maybe so, but I'm not the type to go into that stuff unless there's something REALLY there to make me do so. This is exactly the reason why Blizzard screwed up the campaigns so much.

To me, I'm willing to bet they're making the LotV campaign under the assumption of "Oh there's no SC fan alive today who remembers than the SC universe even HAD a storyline to begin with."

[Turalyon]

Regardless of how powerful Amon is, he can't be stupid enough to believe he alone can accomplish everything.

Why not? He comes across as your typical megalomaniacal villain afterall.

Well that's the problem. Literally all the way up to the "Believe in Me" cutscene, Raynor continued to believe Kerrigan would do the right thing, but even then it wasn't COMPLETELY shattered as Kerrigan thought it had been.

The thing with this was that he was already burned for believing in Kerrigan in BW and declared "No more!" because of it. Raynor's belief in Kerrigan in BW was due to the Overmind dying whilst in WoL, it is renewed due to the artefact. The problem is that Raynor has no continuity with his BW self in that he's not even wary of Kerrigan at all after she's deinfested - he'd be cynical enough to know by now that hope is a pipe-dream (the lesson he learnt in BW). He's potentially set himself up on a "fool me twice, shame on me"-type scenario. It was lucky the writers decided to force the romance though...

Oh I'm sure she knew that she'd still be hunted down by Mengsk, she knew as long as he was alive that would happen. But don't forget what happened at the end of the Flashpoint book. Raynor spoke to her about going to the Umojan facility to get the help she needed. Kerrigan initially resisted, but gave in for him.

Didn't read it, so I'm only taking your word for it at the moment. All I'm saying is that it seems rather arbitrary that she would just trust Raynor and think of not going after Mengsk to then think every other single human individual (except Raynor) is like Mengsk and feel that they don't deserve her trust or help in the span of a few weeks.

[ragnarok]

Why not? He comes across as your typical megalomaniacal villain afterall.

I just think they should make Amon a bit smarter.

He's potentially set himself up on a "fool me twice, shame on me"-type scenario. It was lucky the writers decided to force the romance though...

That's because at the end of the BW, Raynor blamed himself for what happened to her in the first place. To some extent he still may by the end of HotS, that if he had just fought Nova off, none of this might have happened.

Didn't read it, so I'm only taking your word for it at the moment. All I'm saying is that it seems rather arbitrary that she would just trust Raynor and think of not going after Mengsk to then think every other single human individual (except Raynor) is like Mengsk and feel that they don't deserve her trust or help in the span of a few weeks.

You should. In the interview with Christie Golden, she said that a LOT of people had been wondering about all this in their relationship, because until Flashpoint, the SC storyline only revealed the beginning and the ending, not the middle.

[Turalyon]

I just think they should make Amon a bit smarter.

Yeah, just like they made Mengsk a master propagandist.

That's because at the end of the BW, Raynor blamed himself for what happened to her in the first place.

No, he blamed himself at the end of Rebel Yell in Sc1. It was this guilt that allowed him to listen to Kerrigan in the first place during BW when he shouldn't have. By the time True Colours came and went, Raynor stopped blaming himself and started blaming Kerrigan for making her own choices. For once, he was starting to wise up and develop a hardened skin. Then WoL just resets this step forward by retreading his guilt and self-blame again.

To some extent he still may by the end of HotS, that if he had just fought Nova off, none of this might have happened.

Not really, he would have died against Nova and Kerrigan would've killed everyone in revenge. Raynor shouldn't feel guilty at all - he should thank the late Mengsk Snr for keeping him alive so that he could be rescued by Kerrigan in time to shame her into being good again whilst giving him the chance to fulfil his revenge against Mengsk.

The only thing Raynor would be sorry for is that she looks ugly again. Oh well, he was probably already developing a fetish crush over spiky Kerrigan before and during WoL anyway so I guess that's ok.

You should. In the interview with Christie Golden, she said that a LOT of people had been wondering about all this in their relationship, because until Flashpoint, the SC storyline only revealed the beginning and the ending, not the middle.

Ah, so they admit that Sc2's game story is purposefully incomplete and gimped. So much for purposefully making the game in 3 parts to get across all the story they had...

[ragnarok]

Yeah, just like they made Mengsk a master propagandist.

That was more because the Dominion people were WAY too stupid and naive.

Not really, he would have died against Nova and Kerrigan would've killed everyone in revenge. Raynor shouldn't feel guilty at all - he should thank the late Mengsk Snr for keeping him alive so that he could be rescued by Kerrigan in time to shame her into being good again whilst giving him the chance to fulfil his revenge against Mengsk.

If he stopped blaming himself at the end of True Colors, we wouldn't have had that scene in WoL where he was thinking back to the whole betrayal and all, and Matt trying to convince him it wasn't his fault.

Ah, so they admit that Sc2's game story is purposefully incomplete and gimped. So much for purposefully making the game in 3 parts to get across all the story they had...

Not the SC3 game story, the SC1 part. Because all the way up to WoL, the SC players had only known of Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship in how they first met up, and the betrayal on Tarsonis that caused things to go downhill.

The details of HOW they eventually fell in love was never explained, and the Flashpoint book tried explaining that.

[Turalyon]

That was more because the Dominion people were WAY too stupid and naive.

Having to reduce everything/everyone else down in comparison to justify that attribute is a disservice to the world-building of that universe because it regresses everything into a "planet of hats" type of scenario and insults the intelligence of the audience.

Even so, generalising the Dominion as being stupid for Mengsk to be justified as a master propagandist will kinda make Amon stupid and naive as well for using the Overmind as a pawn only for him not to not restrict it enough such that it was able to instigate his downfall. There's no way to make Amon or his motivations seem smart without it just being revealed as an "informed attribute" in the end when he loses (the nature of Amon dictates he must lose as the alternate condition ultimately posits that the continuation of the 3 races is not possible, making it a franchise killer). The Overmind had been criticised for being stupid for some if its decision when it eventually turned out that it died at the end of Sc1. Amon is going to be worse because he's inflated to being more powerful and smarter and better than the Overmind.

If he stopped blaming himself at the end of True Colors, we wouldn't have had that scene in WoL where he was thinking back to the whole betrayal and all, and Matt trying to convince him it wasn't his fault.

Exactly. Which is why the criticism that their is no continuity between the games is a legitimate concern.

Not the SC3 game story, the SC1 part. Because all the way up to WoL, the SC players had only known of Raynor and Kerrigan's relationship in how they first met up, and the betrayal on Tarsonis that caused things to go downhill.

The details of HOW they eventually fell in love was never explained, and the Flashpoint book tried explaining that.

Eh, when they initially fell in love doesn't really inform us much when BW effectively ends any notion in people's minds of such a relationship (if it ever really existed) from ever occurring. I'm not concerned about the romance developing behind the scenes in Sc1, I'm concerned that both Raynor and Kerrigan managed to still secretly feel the same way or somehow got their feelings back when there was no realistic chance it would, especially after all that has happened since BW occurred. If their "undying romance" was so important, it shouldn't have been written in a book after the fact to inform the current game (it was written after WoL, too) but written straight out from the beginning in Sc1 instead of being left open to interpretation at the time.

Much like the Xel'Naga's original conception being retroactively defined in the novels as wanting procreate to serve the current plot in the current games, the undying romance between Raynor and Kerrigan is another similar retroactive explanation to steer (or force more like) the story in one particular way. As a result, the story doesn't seem as organic/naturally flowing as it should. Lastly, I don't feel the need to read something that already confirms what I can already plainly see is happening right now unless I want to specifically cultivate hindsight bias...

[ragnarok]

Having to reduce everything/everyone else down in comparison to justify that attribute is a disservice to the world-building of that universe because it regresses everything into a "planet of hats" type of scenario and insults the intelligence of the audience.

Even so, generalising the Dominion as being stupid for Mengsk to be justified as a master propagandist will kinda make Amon stupid and naive as well for using the Overmind as a pawn only for him not to not restrict it enough such that it was able to instigate his downfall. There's no way to make Amon or his motivations seem smart without it just being revealed as an "informed attribute" in the end when he loses (the nature of Amon dictates he must lose as the alternate condition ultimately posits that the continuation of the 3 races is not possible, making it a franchise killer). The Overmind had been criticised for being stupid for some if its decision when it eventually turned out that it died at the end of Sc1. Amon is going to be worse because he's inflated to being more powerful and smarter and better than the Overmind.

Well right now we just don't have enough info on Amon. We don't even know what his powers are, it's frustrating because we can only speculate and have no concrete evidence.

It's hard to say if Amon is going to be inflated or not. You can't use the "In Utter Darkness" mission as reference because the Protoss had already killed Kerrigan in that future, and therefore Amon didn't HAVE to do anything more.

Exactly. Which is why the criticism that their is no continuity between the games is a legitimate concern.

Understandable, and Blizzard only kind of wrote it out briefly in the into before WoL was released, which wasn't too much. I mean ok sure we all knew Raynor wanted Kerrigan back, but still.

And this is why by the end of HotS, he should be torn in another way: if he wasn't willing to let her go back then, he shouldn't be willing to just let go of everything she did over the years of infestation. I'm sure Kerrigan already knows Raynor is thinking just that.