SCII Legacy of the Void

[ragnarok]

The critics may be a little too enthusiastic when it comes to their opinions but I honestly think that if we parse through all that, most of the prominent ones are only really critical of that one (and very minor according to most players out there) aspect of the game . Because they all talk about that one thing (especially here, given its lore focus more than anything else), it's very easy to assume they hate everything about it. For me, whilst I dislike the current vision and direction, I still love the original conception of Sc.

So do I for the original concept, but right now it's just too narrow. That was the main flaw of WoL, the Dominion military was incompetent enough as it is, WoL made them even worse.

If she's able to fall in love with Raynor, Kerrigan is well open and receptive to the idea that not all humans are like Mengsk. Besides, she's aware of having done far more worse things to innocent human populations when she was the QoB, which should prick at her conscience given her restored humanity. Hell, she listened to Valerian's suggestions to help give him time to spare some civilians when she could've just ignored him. This signifies she knows the difference between the Dominion and the general human populace and that she's willing to start trusting another human she wouldn't normally would. Like it or not, Blizz is trying to make this Kerrigan seem more genuinely "good" now even despite the wonky and morally questionable acts of murdering Protoss and going out of her way to attack all Dominion holdings when it didn't seem necessary.

Again, I don't believe Kerrigan listened to Valerian's suggestion for landing the swarm outside the city for HIS sake, it was more due to the cold reception she got from Raynor in "Believe in Me", which was the realization that she hadn't changed at all, or the change is so small it's almost negligible.

My point still remains, Kerrigan may want the terran race to survive because they could help her fight Amon, but I'm not quite convinced she'll really care if they all die fighting Amon, aside from Raynor's safety, that is.

[Turalyon]

That was the main flaw of WoL, the Dominion military was incompetent enough as it is, WoL made them even worse.

I think you meant HotS made them worse, right? Otherwise that sentence doesn't make sense.

The Dominion military was already shown to be incompetent in BW when it lost to the UED (this is not necessarily a good or bad thing, mind you). What was ludicrous in WoL, was that they bounced back from it as if nothing happened to them and even seemed much better off than ever before.

Again, I don't believe Kerrigan listened to Valerian's suggestion for landing the swarm outside the city for HIS sake, it was more due to the cold reception she got from Raynor in "Believe in Me", which was the realization that she hadn't changed at all, or the change is so small it's almost negligible.

My point still remains, Kerrigan may want the terran race to survive because they could help her fight Amon, but I'm not quite convinced she'll really care if they all die fighting Amon, aside from Raynor's safety, that is.

So you're saying she did this to manipulate Raynor into thinking she was "good" on the off-chance he might love/help/benefit her in someway and not because of guilt? Whilst this does hearken back to the old sociopathic QoB (which I'm sure most people would appreciate), I don't think that's what Blizz seems to be aiming for - not that I'm defending them mind you. You also have to remember that she consciously decided on her own to let Warfield's men go when she didn't really need to. If all her decisions regarding the Dominion and Mengsk were callously pragmatic, she wouldn't have listened and killed them all because otherwise they'd just join up with the rest of the Dominion and oppose her again. Indeed, at that time she would have had more than enough reason to kill them all because she thought Raynor was dead at the hands of the very same people she was letting go. Blizz want us to think she has some sort of conscience by her experiencing guilt, remorse and shame (not that they did it very well, mind you), which were ironically the same feelings she had back in Sc1 in regards to the use of Psi Emitters and are often the seeds for redemption/"being good" again.

The alternative to that, is just what you said: she's doing things to only prop herself up just as she did before without a care to anyone else. Whilst that is undoubtedly enjoyable and more in line with what we knew of her then, it kinda goes against what's been happening so far, like it or not. It's perhaps decidedly worse because it makes why she would go out of the way to help Raynor at all or even care what he feels somewhat uncharacteristic. Prior to WoL, she does not care less about what Raynor feels towards her even after being freed from the Overmind's compulsion. She lets him go not out of guilt or pity but because he is insignificant and can squash (or perhaps manipulate and use him as BW turns out) him at any time should she choose. So why feel guilty now? That's because the love story was shoe-horned into it.

[ragnarok]

I think you meant HotS made them worse, right? Otherwise that sentence doesn't make sense.

The Dominion military was already shown to be incompetent in BW when it lost to the UED (this is not necessarily a good or bad thing, mind you). What was ludicrous in WoL, was that they bounced back from it as if nothing happened to them and even seemed much better off than ever before.

See, THIS is why I believe Valerian should have a hard time getting the people to trust him.

All you have to do is consider 3 glaring points (I'm sure people like Gradius have brought this up before, but I'll do it anyway):

1. When the Dominion was first formed at the end of the terran campaign in SC1, Mengsk boasted about its invincibility, how it had the strongest fighting force in the sector, now no one could beat them...

....a few months later, the UED came along and the Dominion failed miserably. Had it not been for the "alliance" with the Raiders, swarm, and Fenix's forces, Korhal would still be under UED control right now.


2. When the BW ended, Mengsk again boasted the Dominion's might, demonizing everyone else in the sector, and how the Dominion was now a mighty force, unbeatable in every way (which, to some on the core worlds, might be justified given all the Dominion annexation). Mengsk boasted of Korhal being the most heavily fortified planet in the sector, and no enemy of the Dominion would be stupid enough to even THINK of attacking it, let alone actually TRY....

....and Raynor did just that in WoL with the Odin. He eventually had to withdraw, but the damage had been done with the Korhal broadcasts.


3. In HotS, Mengsk took credit for the Char invasion and Raynor's execution, claiming that they had won the war against the swarm, and against the "biggest traitor to human history", that the people's security was guaranteed from this point on....

....and within a few months Kerrigan was leading the swarm against the Korhal invasion, and Raynor (who the public was convinced was dead) helped her in the final assault against the imperial palace.



Thus from the PUBLIC'S POV, everything Mengsk said and claimed turned out to be nothing more than him shooting his mouth off, and the civilians had to pay for his hollow bombast.

Hence, if Valerian tells his people of a promise of a better future, they'll just say that his father said the exact same thing, look how that turned out.

So you're saying she did this to manipulate Raynor into thinking she was "good" on the off-chance he might love/help/benefit her in someway and not because of guilt? Whilst this does hearken back to the old sociopathic QoB (which I'm sure most people would appreciate), I don't think that's what Blizz seems to be aiming for - not that I'm defending them mind you. You also have to remember that she consciously decided on her own to let Warfield's men go when she didn't really need to. If all her decisions regarding the Dominion and Mengsk were callously pragmatic, she wouldn't have listened and killed them all because otherwise they'd just join up with the rest of the Dominion and oppose her again. Indeed, at that time she would have had more than enough reason to kill them all because she thought Raynor was dead at the hands of the very same people she was letting go. Blizz want us to think she has some sort of conscience by her experiencing guilt, remorse and shame (not that they did it very well, mind you), which were ironically the same feelings she had back in Sc1 in regards to the use of Psi Emitters and are often the seeds for redemption/"being good" again.

The alternative to that, is just what you said: she's doing things to only prop herself up just as she did before without a care to anyone else. Whilst that is undoubtedly enjoyable and more in line with what we knew of her then, it kinda goes against what's been happening so far, like it or not. It's perhaps decidedly worse because it makes why she would go out of the way to help Raynor at all or even care what he feels somewhat uncharacteristic. Prior to WoL, she does not care less about what Raynor feels towards her even after being freed from the Overmind's compulsion. She lets him go not out of guilt or pity but because he is insignificant and can squash (or perhaps manipulate and use him as BW turns out) him at any time should she choose. So why feel guilty now? That's because the love story was shoe-horned into it.

See the alternative is possibly one of the OTHER reasons Kerrigan might have allowed Raynor to walk away after the BW. When the BW ended, we didn't know about Amon, we just knew of the hybrids and a "much bigger threat", nothing more. It's possible that Kerrigan realized that this bigger threat may require her to have allies yet again, but because of her betrayals, they wouldn't listen to her anymore. Raynor is the only one who would, hence the need to spare him in the event she needs to manipulate him again.

Though if that's true, that's more due to her arrogance. I cannot see Raynor would listen to her again if that REALLY happened in WoL...

Yes I know about the part with Warfield's men, but the fact that she showed no mercy on the other Dominion troops makes things blurred. In this situation, I'm not sure if Kerrigan realized that a lot of Warfield's men were the same troops that fought alongside Raynor on Char to deinfest her.

If that IS the case, perhaps she felt those are considered "the exception to the rule" Dominion troops, where those soldiers actually have a brain and can THINK for themselves, whereas all the other Dominion troops only understand one thing: pointing a gun and shooting people.


On another matter, Turalyon: you recall the part where you argued against my case that if Blizzard had Amon win in the end, it would make the whole SC2 trilogy a waste of time?

You may need to look at the picture in a different way:

When the Overmind infested Kerrigan, its intent was for her to ensure the survival of the Zerg species and to defeat Amon. But from the "Dark Origin" mission in BW, Duran told Zeratul that the Overmind's intent only SPED UP the process of armageddon.

Similarly, in WoL, we thought deinfesting her with the artifact was needed because it's spare her life, and the prophecy can then play its part with her in it. But in HotS, it was revealed that Narud/Duran simply used the artifact as a means to revive Amon, which in turn SPED UP the whole process of bringing armageddon.

If that's true, then it WOULD make logical sense for Blizzard to have Amon win at the end of LotV, and then point out those two points I mentioned above, and then say to the players, "The morale of the story is that you deluded yourself into THINKING you were fighting to save lives, when in reality this whole time you had done the exact opposite."

[Visions of Khas]

If that's true, then it WOULD make logical sense for Blizzard to have Amon win at the end of LotV, and then point out those two points I mentioned above, and then say to the players, "The morale of the story is that you deluded yourself into THINKING you were fighting to save lives, when in reality this whole time you had done the exact opposite."

[ragnarok]

Please, I may HOPE for a happy ending, but I'm far from optimistic that Blizzard would actually GIVE the happy ending.

[Turalyon]

See, THIS is why I believe Valerian should have a hard time getting the people to trust him.

All you have to do is consider 3 glaring points (I'm sure people like Gradius have brought this up before, but I'll do it anyway)

Oh, I've been going on about the implausibility of the Dominion still existing after BW a few times before. Of the three points, only the first is really defensible because it was just a nascent government (Mengsk/Dominion) that found itself having to replace a government that had ruled for 150+ years and attempt to unify the disparate Terran groups going up against a monolithic and powerful united force from Earth alone. The other two points just follow the tune to compounded scripted stupidity to make Mengsk the sole reason why the Dominion is so crappy and inept. For a so called "master propagandist", the only propaganda that worked was on the audience into believing this (mis)informed attribute was truth: And that was Blizzard's fault, not Mengsk!

Besides, Valerian has Kate Lockwell and Raynor on his side. They're both supposedly the most honest and trustworthy people around in Starcraft these days that people listen to. Valerian is going to have it easy.

Thus from the PUBLIC'S POV, everything Mengsk said and claimed turned out to be nothing more than him shooting his mouth off, and the civilians had to pay for his hollow bombast.

Hence, if Valerian tells his people of a promise of a better future, they'll just say that his father said the exact same thing, look how that turned out.

I take it from what other's have hinted at in the EU about Valerian is that he's not like his father (like, not power hungry), doesn't care for bombast and is publicly known to be both sidelined by his father at every opportunity and vocally opposed to his ideals - I don't really know, not having read any of the books. If that what I said is true then Valerian is already "better" by default.

Of course, I'm somewhat coloured by my first introduction of him in WoL as being a pretentious git who didn't even phone Raynor to stop him from storming and rampaging his ship and killing his men. So I guess I kinda fall within that camp of Valerian being potentially viewed as being no different than Mengsk, too, not that I think that that is what Blizzard has in mind for him though.

See the alternative is possibly one of the OTHER reasons Kerrigan might have allowed Raynor to walk away after the BW. When the BW ended, we didn't know about Amon, we just knew of the hybrids and a "much bigger threat", nothing more. It's possible that Kerrigan realized that this bigger threat may require her to have allies yet again, but because of her betrayals, they wouldn't listen to her anymore. Raynor is the only one who would, hence the need to spare him in the event she needs to manipulate him again.

Gee, you're really stretching here. You're saying that Kerrigan let Raynor go because he'll need to call on him later against the Hybrids and that he'll suddenly just forget the transgressions against him. I know that this is what we actually got in WoL, but there is no way anyone could've come to this conclusion at the time from with how the story in BW presented itself. One has to be careful not to let that hindsight bias influence your logic there (as is the case with the Overmind revelation). If Kerrigan wanted Raynor's future help, she wouldn't have killed Fenix and make him turn against her because that's not the best pragmatic choice if you know you need help fighting some cosmic Lovecraftian Horror in the near future. She had no way of expecting Raynor to still love her so much that he'd just change his mind one day and decide to still have faith in her. Unless we're also saying she is pre-cognitive and that she knew all along that Raynor would do anything for her but then we start getting into insane troll logic.

Yes I know about the part with Warfield's men, but the fact that she showed no mercy on the other Dominion troops makes things blurred. In this situation, I'm not sure if Kerrigan realized that a lot of Warfield's men were the same troops that fought alongside Raynor on Char to deinfest her.

If that IS the case, perhaps she felt those are considered "the exception to the rule" Dominion troops, where those soldiers actually have a brain and can THINK for themselves, whereas all the other Dominion troops only understand one thing: pointing a gun and shooting people.

I know there's some gameplay-story segregation stuff going on, but come on now! That's quite an arbitrarily convenient explanation isn't it?

On another matter, Turalyon: you recall the part where you argued against my case that if Blizzard had Amon win in the end, it would make the whole SC2 trilogy a waste of time?

You may need to look at the picture in a different way:

When the Overmind infested Kerrigan, its intent was for her to ensure the survival of the Zerg species and to defeat Amon. But from the "Dark Origin" mission in BW, Duran told Zeratul that the Overmind's intent only SPED UP the process of armageddon.

Similarly, in WoL, we thought deinfesting her with the artifact was needed because it's spare her life, and the prophecy can then play its part with her in it. But in HotS, it was revealed that Narud/Duran simply used the artifact as a means to revive Amon, which in turn SPED UP the whole process of bringing armageddon.

If that's true, then it WOULD make logical sense for Blizzard to have Amon win at the end of LotV, and then point out those two points I mentioned above, and then say to the players, "The morale of the story is that you deluded yourself into THINKING you were fighting to save lives, when in reality this whole time you had done the exact opposite."

But Kerrigan is still alive, so unless she dies in LotV, Amon does not win. Or who knows? The Overmind vision can still be revealed to be a red-herring and that Amon is in actuality, just a really nice guy with bad, creepy and deviant PR guy in the form of Duran/Narud. Zurvan and the Overmind were just jealous because he was much nicer than either of them so they decided to slander him and force others into killing him. See, I can make up stuff that can potentially fit in with the current info, too.

[ragnarok]

Besides, Valerian has Kate Lockwell and Raynor on his side. They're both supposedly the most honest and trustworthy people around in Starcraft these days that people listen to. Valerian is going to have it easy.

I'm actually not sure with Kate Lockwell. If you had ever read the comic "Newsworthy", you would know that Kate Lockwell had known a few years before WoL that the Dominion is far from what Mengsk claimed it to be. If that's true, I'm sure she'll harbor the exact same skepticism for Valerian.

I take it from what other's have hinted at in the EU about Valerian is that he's not like his father (like, not power hungry), doesn't care for bombast and is publicly known to be both sidelined by his father at every opportunity and vocally opposed to his ideals - I don't really know, not having read any of the books. If that what I said is true then Valerian is already "better" by default.

Of course, I'm somewhat coloured by my first introduction of him in WoL as being a pretentious git who didn't even phone Raynor to stop him from storming and rampaging his ship and killing his men. So I guess I kinda fall within that camp of Valerian being potentially viewed as being no different than Mengsk, too, not that I think that that is what Blizzard has in mind for him though.

Ah I see. Well it's hard to tell with WoL alone. Despite reading all 3 Dark Templar Saga books, they were still vague on Valerian. Even the interview with Christie Golden (author of Flashpoint), she made it clear back in July 2011 that as of that moment, Blizzard still had not fully made up their minds if Valerian should be good or evil, hence why even in Flashpoint, he's still somewhat vague.

I REALLY don't want him to turn out like his father because the I, Mengsk book made it clear he swore that'd never happen, but until Blizzard reveals more, that can't be ruled out.

I know there's some gameplay-story segregation stuff going on, but come on now! That's quite an arbitrarily convenient explanation isn't it?

It's not far from the truth. Under the Dominion army, neural resocialization has dropped compared to the Confederacy, but 80% of Dominion soldiers still have to undergo the process (at least that's what I heard, I could be wrong). And most of the resocialized soldiers were once serial killers taken from the max security prisons.

And if we go by that, then it'd make sense for the general impression that the Dominion soldier does not understand anything except "kill, kill, and kill some more."

But Kerrigan is still alive, so unless she dies in LotV, Amon does not win. Or who knows? The Overmind vision can still be revealed to be a red-herring and that Amon is in actuality, just a really nice guy with bad, creepy and deviant PR guy in the form of Duran/Narud. Zurvan and the Overmind were just jealous because he was much nicer than either of them so they decided to slander him and force others into killing him. See, I can make up stuff that can potentially fit in with the current info, too.

Oh I know, I REALLY hope that by the end of LotV, Blizzard doesn't make it out so that Amon is just ANOTHER puppet being pulled, and the true "higher power" that Duran talked about back in Dark Origins is something even greater.

[Turalyon]

I'm actually not sure with Kate Lockwell. If you had ever read the comic "Newsworthy", you would know that Kate Lockwell had known a few years before WoL that the Dominion is far from what Mengsk claimed it to be. If that's true, I'm sure she'll harbor the exact same skepticism for Valerian.

Any reporter worth their weight checks their information on both sides. She would of clearly known that Valerian was never really part of the Dominion to begin with. Sure, she'd be aware of the "taint of association" but someone in her position should know better and would probably report in favour of Valerian to show that distance between him and his father. Than again, what do I know? Lockwell could well be just another shoddy reporter who just wants the top job and will stoop to muck-raking and sensationalism. There's not enough to really say one way or another but given her portrayal as the only "voice of reason" that is the madhouse that is the Mengsk administration, I'm guessing Blizzard wants to aim for the former.

I REALLY don't want him to turn out like his father because the I, Mengsk book made it clear he swore that'd never happen, but until Blizzard reveals more, that can't be ruled out.

Famous last words right there. Oh well, so we get another Mengsk who turns out just to be the same old one. Hmmm, and what about the reason Blizz gave to introduce Valerian was because they felt Mengsk Snr had run his course in terms of narrative? To make him into a character they already had, but killed off for being considered a dead-end route? That'd be a clear foot-in-mouth scenario for Blizz if Val really did turn out like that though. My money's on him being more "good" than "evil".

It's not far from the truth. Under the Dominion army, neural resocialization has dropped compared to the Confederacy, but 80% of Dominion soldiers still have to undergo the process (at least that's what I heard, I could be wrong). And most of the resocialized soldiers were once serial killers taken from the max security prisons.

And if we go by that, then it'd make sense for the general impression that the Dominion soldier does not understand anything except "kill, kill, and kill some more."

I guess then that Kerrigan's somehow been able to keep-up with reading the "Dominion Times" (not that State secrets like resocialisation would to be so freely disseminated for everyone to know that is) in all her time sitting around doing nothing with no-one to talk to and all.

Oh I know, I REALLY hope that by the end of LotV, Blizzard doesn't make it out so that Amon is just ANOTHER puppet being pulled, and the true "higher power" that Duran talked about back in Dark Origins is something even greater.

It sounds very much like them to do this given their current trend. Either way, I'm pretty sure I'll have this reaction to the ending no matter how it turns out: "Oh, is that it? Kinda lame/predictable/stupid/brave of them to do that. Eh, whatever".

[ragnarok]

Any reporter worth their weight checks their information on both sides. She would of clearly known that Valerian was never really part of the Dominion to begin with. Sure, she'd be aware of the "taint of association" but someone in her position should know better and would probably report in favour of Valerian to show that distance between him and his father. Than again, what do I know? Lockwell could well be just another shoddy reporter who just wants the top job and will stoop to muck-raking and sensationalism. There's not enough to really say one way or another but given her portrayal as the only "voice of reason" that is the madhouse that is the Mengsk administration, I'm guessing Blizzard wants to aim for the former.

I guess it depends. Look all I'm saying is Kate knows the Dominion kept secrets, and it's FAR from the shining beacon of humanity, and she knew this LONG before WoL occurred. I just think she'd be skeptical of the new leadership.

Famous last words right there. Oh well, so we get another Mengsk who turns out just to be the same old one. Hmmm, and what about the reason Blizz gave to introduce Valerian was because they felt Mengsk Snr had run his course in terms of narrative? To make him into a character they already had, but killed off for being considered a dead-end route? That'd be a clear foot-in-mouth scenario for Blizz if Val really did turn out like that though. My money's on him being more "good" than "evil".

I'm hoping for the former as well. If nothing else Valerian has to know by now that messing with the bond Raynor and Kerrigan share is not exactly a smart idea. His father already tried that and look where that ended up.

That being said, I can still see Amon doing this. Unlike Mengsk who arrogantly portrayed himself to be a god, Amon is a REAL god. And unlike the Dominion army that's mostly composed of a bunch of drug addicts, Amon's hybrid army is a hell of a lot better.

I guess then that Kerrigan's somehow been able to keep-up with reading the "Dominion Times" (not that State secrets like resocialisation would to be so freely disseminated for everyone to know that is) in all her time sitting around doing nothing with no-one to talk to and all.

Look, contrary to what's been said that after the BW, Kerrigan for the most part just withdrew the swarm to Char and disappeared from sight for the next 4 years, I still have a suspicion she DID keep an eye on the Dominion to a small extent.

This was because Blizzard's official lore stated that after the BW, Raynor knew he'd have little luck in getting Kerrigan back, so he turned his attention to dealing with Mengsk.

And as we know, Amon's influence did NOT remove the deep feelings Kerrigan harbored for Raynor, although it was hard to actually see. In that respect, she probably kept an eye on him and the Raiders to see what their actions were against the Dominion. IMO, if Raynor really HAD been badly hurt or killed by the Dominion during those 4 years, Kerrigan probably WOULD have taken action against Mengsk.

It sounds very much like them to do this given their current trend. Either way, I'm pretty sure I'll have this reaction to the ending no matter how it turns out: "Oh, is that it? Kinda lame/predictable/stupid/brave of them to do that. Eh, whatever".

Possibly. I'm sure by Blizzcon 2014 there'll still be those demanding Blizzard to confirm if Emil Narud really WAS Samir Duran or not. Then, if we find out in LotV that they were NOT the same person, a LOT of fans (including me) are going to want a VERY good explanation from them...

[Crazio]

Possibly. I'm sure by Blizzcon 2014 there'll still be those demanding Blizzard to confirm if Emil Narud really WAS Samir Duran or not. Then, if we find out in LotV that they were NOT the same person, a LOT of fans (including me) are going to want a VERY good explanation from them...

A real closed ending would be sweet. Though I guess they want to keep an opening for a possible sequel. Or a novel or what ever.

- - - Updated - - -

Possibly. I'm sure by Blizzcon 2014 there'll still be those demanding Blizzard to confirm if Emil Narud really WAS Samir Duran or not. Then, if we find out in LotV that they were NOT the same person, a LOT of fans (including me) are going to want a VERY good explanation from them...

A real closed ending would be sweet. Though I guess they want to keep an opening for a possible sequel. Or a novel or what ever.