Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?

[ragnarok]

Leaving the Terran's and Protoss alone isn't supportive of Zerg instincts; though the Terrans really are of no other use and could be just left behind. The idea that Kerrigan will leave them be is because she is still, deep down, Sarah Kerrigan. She has to care for BOTH.
Making the Swarm into what it's going to be, fighting off Amon and realizing her place is for the Zerg. However, she's still allowed human feelings and thus forcing the Zerg to stay away from Terrans and Protoss is only natural. It's sympathy; something the Zerg don't possess and never will; but so long as she's alive? She will.

And this could be EXACTLY the problem the Protoss will face in LotV, assuming they can see Kerrigan would still care for the terran race: it doesn't mean a thing to THEM, they're on their own against Amon.

[solidsamurai]

Shouldn't Abathur already have all the genetic engineering knowledge of Amon, who has been "dead" ever since the xel'naga were destroyed? Or maybe I'm just not grasping what they mean by "micro scale". All genetic engineering is micro-scale. You either manipulate the nucleotides to suit your purposes, or you don't.

What if it's super micro-scale though?

[ragnarok]

What if it's super micro-scale though?

How small you want it to be?

[Einharjar]

What if it's super micro-scale though?

Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Now for manipulating DNA? That's on the Molecular level, not sure how much more "micro" you can get. So, what, Abathur is refering to Maybe Atmoic? I doubt it. Even worse; Quantum? Then Stukov should be some sort of Intra-dimensional Super Being if what ever made him so special had anything to do with how was constructed from the Quantum level on up... and at that rate? Bio-engineering isn't the Profession anymore... it's very well past that...

- - - Updated - - -

What if it's super micro-scale though?

Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Now for manipulating DNA? That's on the Molecular level, not sure how much more "micro" you can get. So, what, Abathur is refering to Maybe Atmoic? I doubt it. Even worse; Quantum? Then Stukov should be some sort of Intra-dimensional Super Being if what ever made him so special had anything to do with how was constructed from the Quantum level on up... and at that rate? Bio-engineering isn't the Profession anymore... it's very well past that...

[ragnarok]

Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Now for manipulating DNA? That's on the Molecular level, not sure how much more "micro" you can get. So, what, Abathur is refering to Maybe Atmoic? I doubt it. Even worse; Quantum? Then Stukov should be some sort of Intra-dimensional Super Being if what ever made him so special had anything to do with how was constructed from the Quantum level on up... and at that rate? Bio-engineering isn't the Profession anymore... it's very well past that...

The problem is that after the primal infestation, Kerrigan told Abathur that she's too complex for him to understand. This seems to indicate that Abathur only understands down to the cellular level, but that makes no sense as he can spin genetic strands, which means he can understand all the way down to the DNA.

But I'm not convinced the pool can remake a person all the way down to the atomic level. It's a spawning pool, not nanotechnology.

[Turalyon]

Jeez you guys, this got out of hand quickly.

Gimme a chance to back up here a little.

No, Khaydarin is everywhere

Yeah, I know that. I was just correcting what you said about what happened in the Overmind campaign. You said there were two crystals used to manifest the Overmind when it was only one; one that was harvested by a drone from a Khaydarin mound located on Aiur.

Well, an excuse could be made to say, that he influenced the Overmind to be over Zealous and misjudge it's progress versus the Protoss on purpose, so that it would be destroyed.

Yeah, all I see from whatever happens now in Sc are just "excuses" for things to happen.

Amon could've known of Tassadar's power as well as other things. Maybe he knew of the Nazerim as well so he knew wielders of Void energy could come and destroy the Overmind; thus rendering the Zerg Swarm inert and useless; ready for Amon to use for whatever he wished. Since he is Xel'naga, it'd be stupid of them to not give Amon knowledge of the Protoss since his race last knew them. He should be aware of their potential to destroy the Overmind; something unique to them as there is no other race available currently in the Lore.

Given that Amon is a Xel'Naga and that they created the Overmind, Amon wouldn't even need to go through the convolution of hoping to force a meeting with Nerazim (which have yet to exist at that point in time) to kill it for him because he would also have the necessary information to kill the Overmind on the spot. Why risk sending it on it's merry way to cross the breadth of the galaxy gaining incredible strength whilst doing so and risk having it destroy the necessary Protoss (which it really almost succeeded) it needs to revive later on if all it really wanted was the Zerg/Overmind to die? I can understand that Amon won't care if the Overmind does end up dying on it's quest but to say that Amon only really wanted the Overmind to commit suicide from the beginning makes less sense than the actual retcon of Amon forcing the Overmind to kill Protoss.

He couldn't just "kill the Overmind sooner" because there is specifically no stated race between Zerus and the K-Sector that was psionic. The Overmind was heading straight for Auir; if it had encountered any beings along the way that were Psionic, I'm sure the Overmind would've made a note about it and wouldn't have had such a hard on for Terran Ghosts... I think you're jumping the gun here...

Yeah, but you've outright stated that the Overmind was pretty much useless to Amon from the get-go and was pretty much ready for it and the Zerg to die immediately since they have no psionic value. Since Amon only really needs the psionic energy of the Protoss to revive, it can get rid of the Zerg at any time. Why would Amon potentially ruin his own plans by sending the Overmind/Zerg to kill the Protoss before the Hybrids come online to suck all that precious psionic energy it needs to revive?

There is no way one could ever spin the Overmind's death in Sc1 as being one of suicide and have that make sense or be palatable. The Overmind realised that it didn't need Kerrigan to help it assault Aiur because it knew that the Protoss there (no Dark Templar) were actually powerless against it due to, you know, reading Zeratul's (a friggin Dark Templar who happens to know a lot of about current Protoss social dynamics) mind. Kerrigan was not shafted or being sheltered away on Char. She was left with the most important job of all! That was the killing of the one thing that could harm the Overmind: the Dark Templar and guess what? She failed, implying that she is not the bestest, perfect being in the universe... To think the Overmind went to Aiur to suicide would imply that he'd also knew that somehow the Protoss would, I don't know, be able to have some messiah who was able to combine the opposing energies of their disparate people, return to Aiur at the right time, reach it and kill it. That's strange, because that's exactly how Sc1 turned out! What a coincidence, right? No, that's just asinine troll logic.

Whatever way it turns out, Blizz is constantly shifting the goal posts of what motivates what such that any definitive answer is still going to be met with puzzled frowns.

Again, I'm not sure if I just wrote it wrong (I could have. I can write complete jibberish at times) but I fail to see the problem here.

What you wrote did not naturally suggest what you just went on to explain, hence my initial attempt to clarify.

I'm assuming he sped up his "plans" (the progress he was referring to) because if it were to be true, that the Overmind was basically framed to fail - then it's purpose for dying was to prevent the prophecy of a Zerg Savior. Duran, in BW then, having seen this savior basically went "oh shit, it didn't work... " and started seeding his "Many many worlds" in a hastily manner. Thus he employed the help of a corrupt Dictator who would harbor such odd things and used him to help "speed" up the seeding process.

If Duran meant "plans" when he said "progress" he would have said exactly that because those two words mean completely different things. As to the purpose of the Overmind being being made to die as "to prevent the prophecy of the Zerg saviour", this calls into the question again of why not kill it from the start and why even loose the Overmind to give it a chance (no matter how insignificantly remote the possibility) of rebelling at all? Amon and Duran could've have just indefinitely kept both the Zerg and the Protoss apart, slowly collected samples from each and quietly make their Hybrids until the day they had enough to suck the psionics out of the Protoss to revive Amon and no-one would be the wiser.

[ragnarok]

Given that Amon is a Xel'Naga and that they created the Overmind, Amon wouldn't even need to go through the convolution of hoping to force a meeting with Nerazim (which have yet to exist at that point in time) to kill it for him because he would also have the necessary information to kill the Overmind on the spot. Why risk sending it on it's merry way to cross the breadth of the galaxy gaining incredible strength whilst doing so and risk having it destroy the necessary Protoss (which it really almost succeeded) it needs to revive later on if all it really wanted was the Zerg/Overmind to die? I can understand that Amon won't care if the Overmind does end up dying on it's quest but to say that Amon only really wanted the Overmind to commit suicide from the beginning makes less sense than the actual retcon of Amon forcing the Overmind to kill Protoss.

I don't think Amon WANTED the Overmind to die, it just didn't EXPECT it. Remember how the original Zerg command structure worked: the Cerebrates can't exist without an Overmind. Therefore, if it died, the whole swarm would fracture and go feral. It was only by the end of the BW and the death of the 2nd Overmind that the command structure changed because Kerrigan could control the whole of the swarm by herself.

if by that time the Nerazim didn't exist just yet, it's possible that Amon felt there's no way for the Overmind to be killed because the Khala energies don't work against it.

There is no way one could ever spin the Overmind's death in Sc1 as being one of suicide and have that make sense or be palatable. The Overmind realised that it didn't need Kerrigan to help it assault Aiur because it knew that the Protoss there (no Dark Templar) were actually powerless against it due to, you know, reading Zeratul's (a friggin Dark Templar who happens to know a lot of about current Protoss social dynamics) mind. Kerrigan was not shafted or being sheltered away on Char. She was left with the most important job of all! That was the killing of the one thing that could harm the Overmind: the Dark Templar and guess what? She failed, implying that she is not the bestest, perfect being in the universe... To think the Overmind went to Aiur to suicide would imply that he'd also knew that somehow the Protoss would, I don't know, be able to have some messiah who was able to combine the opposing energies of their disparate people, return to Aiur at the right time, reach it and kill it. That's strange, because that's exactly how Sc1 turned out! What a coincidence, right? No, that's just asinine troll logic.

It's not whether it needed Kerrigan during the assault on Aiur or not, it needed her to stay on Char so Amon can't see the threat she posed. As for the part of killing the Dark Templar that could harm the Overmind, that's still hard to say. If the Overmind planned for her to change the swarm's command structure, then its plan would have been to deal with the Dark Templar only AFTER its death, not BEFORE.

If Duran meant "plans" when he said "progress" he would have said exactly that because those two words mean completely different things. As to the purpose of the Overmind being being made to die as "to prevent the prophecy of the Zerg saviour", this calls into the question again of why not kill it from the start and why even loose the Overmind to give it a chance (no matter how insignificantly remote the possibility) of rebelling at all? Amon and Duran could've have just indefinitely kept both the Zerg and the Protoss apart, slowly collected samples from each and quietly make their Hybrids until the day they had enough to suck the psionics out of the Protoss to revive Amon and no-one would be the wiser.

This is perhaps a flaw in Amon's corruption. Even if Amon had known of the terran species by the time he corrupted the Overmind, he didn't expect them to pose much of a threat. Assuming he really did, maybe the details of the corruption aren't clear in that he didn't know after he passes away, the Overmind could find a crack, however small, in the control directive.

[solidsamurai]

Well lets see, we've got a few options here.

Didn't realize I was joking, eh?

It's a spawning pool, not nanotechnology.

Unless you've somehow created robotic protons and electrons to create perfectly controlled reactions, nano-tech is molecular. I don't believe you can manipulate objects at an atomic level, without going straight to quantum level.

Also, DNA is just a molecule that's being manipulated, so spinning helixes out of strands of DNA is creating new genetic codes. Not DNA molecules from scratch. I don't know why you'd need to create DNA from scratch, unless blizzard wants to hand-wave it as super DNA, or something.

We have cellular level
We have molecular level
We have Atomic level and then
We have Quantum level...

Quanta aren't directly measured, so I'd say the energy level is more minute than the atomic level. Energy forms into atoms, after all (strong nuclear force, etc.).

[ragnarok]

Unless you've somehow created robotic protons and electrons to create perfectly controlled reactions, nano-tech is molecular. I don't believe you can manipulate objects at an atomic level, without going straight to quantum level.

Also, DNA is just a molecule that's being manipulated, so spinning helixes out of strands of DNA is creating new genetic codes. Not DNA molecules from scratch. I don't know why you'd need to create DNA from scratch, unless blizzard wants to hand-wave it as super DNA, or something.

Well either way the point is Xel'Naga tech has the ability to manipulate things beyond our understanding. If you had looked at the lore for Protoss tech, they're largely reversed engineered from Xel'Naga technology, although still inferior to theirs.

In addition if you had read Stetmann's notes in WoL about his Protoss tech studies, it's that Protoss technology seems somewhat sentient, almost like it's alive or something.

If that's true, the Xel'Naga tech certainly WOULD be sentient and alive. By terran standards, this would be the equivalent of mixing magic with technology, and there have been VERY few cases with you can mix the two of them and have a good outcome...

[Turalyon]

I don't think Amon WANTED the Overmind to die, it just didn't EXPECT it.

I'm challenging Ein's assertion that Amon's whole plan with the Overmind was that it wanted the Overmind to die. The above is a possible "out" but just like all of our own fanon reasons, any "real" explanations given by Blizz for their retcons (if at all) will not sound any less like an evasion or reinterpretation of past things.

Remember how the original Zerg command structure worked: the Cerebrates can't exist without an Overmind.

They worked fine taking over Shakuras even when the Zerg there were supposed to be feral and that the 2nd Overmind was nowhere near at the height of the original.

It's possible that Amon felt there's no way for the Overmind to be killed because the Khala energies don't work against it.

That's a convenient excuse given that void energy is perhaps older and has probably existed even prior to the Protoss only for it to be tapped by the Nerazim later when they were denied any other source. Amon could've summoned this void energy then to kill it because the Overmind has some void energy within it, too (it's the explanation the Overmind gives as the reason why the Dark Templar are able to harm it in Sc1). This is the problem you get when you have all powerful, ancient and extremely knowledgeable villains that are even more powerful, ancient and extremely knowledgeable (Amon) than the previous one (Overmind). He has to have a convenient gap in his knowledge which is so basic and something that they should be expected to know and then expect the audience to swallow it as being "realistic" for that universe.

It's not whether it needed Kerrigan during the assault on Aiur or not, it needed her to stay on Char so Amon can't see the threat she posed. As for the part of killing the Dark Templar that could harm the Overmind, that's still hard to say. If the Overmind planned for her to change the swarm's command structure, then its plan would have been to deal with the Dark Templar only AFTER its death, not BEFORE.

Careful about that hindsight bias. I'm talking from the perspective and knowledge we obtain in Sc1 only. That so-called plot hole of the "Overmind leaving Kerrigan on Char to attack Aiur and then die was a stupid move" is not really a plot-hole at all. It is doubtful Kerrigan would have done much anyway to help the Overmind on Aiur since a) it was already winning on Aiur and b) she failed in her own task of eliminating the Dark Templar. Lastly, that position of "the Overmind being dumb to go to Aiur alone" is an opinion based from hindsight bias because if the Overmind hadn't died (ie: as in Kerrigan doing her job on Char properly), it would've been labelled as a tactical genius. Go figure...

This is perhaps a flaw in Amon's corruption. Even if Amon had known of the terran species by the time he corrupted the Overmind, he didn't expect them to pose much of a threat. Assuming he really did, maybe the details of the corruption aren't clear in that he didn't know after he passes away, the Overmind could find a crack, however small, in the control directive.

This would imply he's conveniently blind of the prophecy? How come the comparatively "lowly" Overmind was able to see Amon's weakness (which Amon itself reveals in that vision) and Amon could not? Oh, that's right the vision's fake. Or is it? Some people think it's real and that the information it gives is gospel. And that wishy-washy nonsensical directive thing - hasn't Amon read those rules to being an effective evil overlord? I guess that if Amon was so sloppy there, then he's bound to fail on any bigger venture. Jeez, what a mess....