Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?

[TheEconomist]

Thank you Robear. That was very helpful.

[Turalyon]

I'm pretty sure that for a gene-splice Duran doesn't actually need to kidnap individual specimens. A protoss does not get kidnapped and then wake up as a hybrid.

Then what's the deal with Zeratul finding Zerglings and a Protoss in individual stasis cells on that dark moon in BW/Dark Origins?

We know even less about how the process of hybridisation works compared to Zerg assimilation, but from what we have I'd assume that Duran would need to harvest a lot of stock material, if not wholesale specimans, in order to put them on "many, many worlds".

If the Overmind assimilated the protoss, he'd be able to give purity of form and protoss psionics to all zerg strains, and be able to produce them en-masse from hatcheries. The result would be far more powerful and dangerous than Duran's hybrids.

I didn't know this was ever in doubt. Then again, given that it is unclear now (due to the EU and Sc2) whether the Overmind even really could/wanted to assimilate the Protoss in the first place, the exact answer is yet unknown. Unless LotV actually has the Zerg assimilate some Protoss for real and then use this "purer" melding (but not Xel'Naga) to defeat the Hybrids and Amon.

[Visions of Khas]

Original Spawning Pool

This device originates from the old Primordial Waters trope in human legend; the chaotic power that creates life. Regardless of what myth or legend you're talking about, successive generations of beings become more and more distanced from the source -- and therefor grow less and less powerful. I can only surmise this is the case with the Zerg Swarm; though how it hasn't empowered the Primal Zerg, who knows. Perhaps some silly tribal taboos? Perhaps the Pack Leaders have made the area off-limits so other Primals cannot take the power from them? Who knows. Probably a combination of the above.

This would be an appropriate plot device in a world like WarCraft or Diablo, but not StarCraft.

Amon's Knowledge

It's clear the Zerg couldn't absorb the Xel'Naga themselves totally and completely, and there were some definite problems in assimilating their memories. We don't know where Amon was at the time of the Xel'Naga's defeat over Zerus, but either the "proto-genetic" knowledge was corrupted during the transfer to the Zerg Hivemind, or they only got a portion of it.

And of course, Abathur is quick to point out that both Amon and the Zerg pale in comparison to that magical swamp cesspool on Zerus:

It isn't stated directly that Amon's skill is inferior to the Primordial Spawning pool. Stukov's reinfestation was supervised by Emil Narud, a pawn of Amon. What Abathur is saying is that the entity responsible is as good as the Primordial Spawning Pool.

[Shadow Archon]

I think there is a difference between ability and knowledge.

Just because the Zerg have the knowledge of what they need to do, doesn't necessarily mean they can do with just their ability to manipulate biology.

The beings that Narud creates is specifically dealing with mixing Protoss genetics and Zerg genetics, a feat that the Zerg can't reproduce, even the Primal Zerg, due to the fact that the Protoss psionics acts as a shield. Given that Narud can mix these together in a fashion that works, his ability to manipulate genetics maybe something like on the scale of an effector*.

Effectively, he can micromanage the psionic energy to prevent it from tampering with the Zerg matter combining with the Protoss matter. If he can do that, he definitely can combine the Zerg and the Terran cells together at a much more precise level then just the Zerg's attempt at splicing genes, even if they have the "knowledge" of what to do. Abathur keeps trying to dissect Protoss and get something from them after all. If he's determined, that might indicate he knows its possible, but he's working on his methods to obtain that goal.

*Effectors are a device from the Culture novels that basically can move energy from one place to another using micro-wormholes. They allow extreme hacking on both technology and biology, and are a device that can manipulate pretty much anything.

[Turalyon]

This device originates from the old Primordial Waters trope in human legend; the chaotic power that creates life. Regardless of what myth or legend you're talking about, successive generations of beings become more and more distanced from the source -- and therefor grow less and less powerful. I can only surmise this is the case with the Zerg Swarm

Oh great, the workings of another potential retcon. So all the different species the Zerg were incorporating into their system to make themselves more efficient and more powerful culminating in their ultimate strength with the assimilation of the Protoss, is actually just them getting weaker. This possible direction is "backwards logic" at its most facepalm-worthy.

It's clear the Zerg couldn't absorb the Xel'Naga themselves totally and completely, and there were some definite problems in assimilating their memories.

Either that or the Xel'Naga are not all that they're cracked up to be. Really, the Xel'Naga as conceived in the manual are nothing really special and were prone to making mistakes. The gaps in the knowledge of the Overmind could really be that of the Xel'Naga themselves.

We don't know where Amon was at the time of the Xel'Naga's defeat over Zerus

I knew where he was. He was in a realm called "non-existence" at the time.

[Visions of Khas]

Oh great, the workings of another potential retcon. So all the different species the Zerg were incorporating into their system to make themselves more efficient and more powerful culminating in their ultimate strength with the assimilation of the Protoss, is actually just them getting weaker. This possible direction is "backwards logic" at its most facepalm-worthy.

What other option is there, though? All Zerg-kind originated from that pool. Unless Amon's enforced Hivelink reduces the efficiency of Zerg on an individual scale.

... Which would make sense, now that I think about it, given that the lesser breeds were restricted in intelligence and power by the Overmind. Reintroducing the Primordial Spawning Pool's influence into the swarm and reinvigorating it would then make a bit of sense...

Kerrigan's rebirth into the Swarm would unleash her innate potential, but it would still be kept in check; like a Zerg equivalent to Resocialization. Re-integrating the potential of the Spawning Pool would then allow unrestricted Zerg genetics to magnify her power to its fullest extent.

A lot of you would think that this is another way Blizzard is weakening the Swarm and the Overmind's character in particular. But I think it's intriguing how successful the Overmind became despite Amon's influence. It's a testament to its ingenuity and determination.



Huh. What would happen if we dipped Artanis into the Spawning Pool?...

[Turalyon]

What other option is there, though?

How about to not retcon when it wasn't really necessary?

Unless Amon's enforced Hivelink reduces the efficiency of Zerg on an individual scale.

Another retcon, the Hivelink is the Overmind. The Xel'Naga (not Amon) created it specifically to increase the efficiency of the Zerg and for their perceived sociological benefit after seeing their mistake with the Protoss (not to hamper the Zerg). The Zerg had no sapience on their own originally so there was no "individual scale" up until the Overmind was created to make the Zerg a collective individual.

Which would make sense, now that I think about it, given that the lesser breeds were restricted in intelligence and power by the Overmind.

Where's your proof? The creatures that Zerg assimilated prior to the Terrans were never known to have any sapience unless we are now saying that Zz'gassh Dune runners and Slothien really had magnificent civilisations with advanced technology because it was never said they didn't.

Reintroducing the Primordial Spawning Pool's influence into the swarm and reinvigorating it would then make a bit of sense...

Not really. Imagine a modern day human going back in time to soak in our own primordial soup on the same premise of improving themselves somehow when all it will most likely do is nothing or perhaps kill them due to its varied toxic mixture of microbes. To think that the Primordial Spawning Pool has somehow remained static and not evolved itself (or at the least, just not disappearing altogether!) to even provide these supposed revitalising powers just reeks of contrivance if you ask me.

Kerrigan's rebirth into the Swarm would unleash her innate potential, but it would still be kept in check; like a Zerg equivalent to Resocialization. Re-integrating the potential of the Spawning Pool would then allow unrestricted Zerg genetics to magnify her power to its fullest extent.

Her innate potential was unleashed in BW when she proved herself to be a severely psychologically damaged human being.

A lot of you would think that this is another way Blizzard is weakening the Swarm and the Overmind's character in particular.

Gee, I wonder why?

One can't be faulted for calling out what is plainly in sight.

But I think it's intriguing how successful the Overmind became despite Amon's influence. It's a testament to its ingenuity and determination.

Not really, it just calls into question how stupid and ineffective the "directive" was in controlling the Overmind. In other words, it didn't really do much at all where it really should've. Funny how convenient everything turned out to be for the Overmind when it "screamed and raged in a prison of its own mind" throughout all the time, isn't it?

What would happen if we dipped Artanis into the Spawning Pool?...

A gigantic but delicious paddle pop?

[Telenil]

Then what's the deal with Zeratul finding Zerglings and a Protoss in individual stasis cells on that dark moon in BW/Dark Origins?

As far as we can see, he takes some DNA samples for the prisoners and doesn't do anything else to them. The test subject numbers used to create the Hybrid match the numbers of the prisonners you rescue from the stasis cells.

In other words, he doesn't mutate the prisonners, he takes a few cells here and there and keeps them locked in case he needs more. He could probably do just as well with a single zergling and a single zealot, though the hybrid would lack genetic diversity and it wouldn't be very practical to have them on multiple world.

[Turalyon]

He could probably do just as well with a single zergling and a single zealot, though the hybrid would lack genetic diversity and it wouldn't be very practical to have them on multiple world.

My point still stands. Duran will still need at least a single Zergling and Zealot for each of his "many, many worlds" (I admit I was paraphrasing incorrectly when I previously said "countless"). If not for reasons such as convenience ("Oops, I screwed up this batch. Guess I have to travel several hundred light years or so to another planet to scrape some cells off the source creature that's located there"), there would be more scientific/practical reasons like genetic diversity as you said, to have a reserve stock and the distinct likelihood of incompatibility given that they're making a freak of nature.

The only way I can see Duran having enough time to setup this huge network of worlds with successfully growing hybrids is that he must have abducted some Protoss at the time of first contact between Xel'Naga and the Protoss and then somehow seeded his "many, many worlds" with them during the Xel'Naga's trip to Zerus where they encountered the Zerg. One would then assume he'd may still need to get specimans after this period up to the modern/current time to monitor their current evolutionary path and check for variation or improvements in the Protoss genome. Afterall, he'd want to ensure that his "product" would be superior to the Protoss when the time comes to attack them.

It is unknown whether Duran used Zerglings exclusively for his experiments because that would then mean he'd had to wait until the Swarm got off Zerus and assimilated the Zz'gash Dune runners before even starting his experiments (reducing the amount of time he would have before the Sc2 events would occur). I'd assume he'd have stolen some larvae or original Zerg insectoids upon first contact with the Zerg to give him enough time to make an army big enough to consider waging a war in Sc2's time. Still Duran would have had to wrack up some serious travel time. I still haven't even begun to fathom where he got his manpower from to monitor and conduct the Hybrid experiment on his other "many, many worlds" - more abducted Terrans or Tal'Darim where somehow, no-one noticed?

There's also the matter of his line about Kerrigan's "rebirth into the Swarm has (having) sped up my progress". There's a possible implication there that it means that Duran may have had trouble creating the Hybrid prior to Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm. If so, that will make his available time-frame (5 years between Sc1 and Sc2) to make these hybrids and ensure they're a proper threat quite tight. Then again, it could just mean that that the Hybrids were already being finished and that he's hurrying up because he's afraid of Kerrigan - Sc2 seems to be suggesting this so far. Figures then why he didn't just kill her right being in a position to in BW but oh well, that's a plothole for another discussion.

[Gradius]

Amon is a special hero Xel'Naga with priveleged information (read: contrived character whose sole narrative purpose is plot device). The Zerg did get all their genetic engineering konwledge from the Xel'Naga except for the one who turns out to be a "genius amongst geniuses".

Reading back on my above comment, I just noticed how trollish my answer sounds. It's certainly ironic that it is also perhaps the best logical answer one can come up with.

I think there is a difference between ability and knowledge.

Just because the Zerg have the knowledge of what they need to do, doesn't necessarily mean they can do with just their ability to manipulate biology.

Effectively, he can micromanage the psionic energy to prevent it from tampering with the Zerg matter combining with the Protoss matter. If he can do that, he definitely can combine the Zerg and the Terran cells together at a much more precise level then just the Zerg's attempt at splicing genes, even if they have the "knowledge" of what to do.

We don't know where Amon was at the time of the Xel'Naga's defeat over Zerus, but either the "proto-genetic" knowledge was corrupted during the transfer to the Zerg Hivemind, or they only got a portion of it.

If Amon and his agents are so awesome, it raises the question of why they sucked so bad at utilizing pylon technology in Dark Origins:

ADJUTANT
Danger! Test subject twenty three suffering
from psychic feedback. Pylon crystals at
critical stage. Cell meltdown imminent...

ZERATUL
Damn! The Terrans are having more trouble
utilizing pylons than I thought.

Or why Kerrigan's rebirth into the swarm "sped up" Duran's progress if he was already ahead of the swarm according to Abathur in SC2.

The beings that Narud creates is specifically dealing with mixing Protoss genetics and Zerg genetics, a feat that the Zerg can't reproduce, even the Primal Zerg, due to the fact that the Protoss psionics acts as a shield. Given that Narud can mix these together in a fashion that works, his ability to manipulate genetics maybe something like on the scale of an effector*.

I would assume Protoss psionics only act as a shield when the protoss is alive. That's why the protoss can't be infested, but I don't see any valid reason for why they can't be assimilated. The Overmind, with all the knowledge of the xel'naga, didn't seem to think the protoss couldn't be assimilated, though of course it would be difficult.

As for Stukov, I don't see why zerg can't just move DNA around with an enzyme. Same exact thing as the "effector" you just described. Kaloth did originally infest him in Resurrection IV after all. I guess I'm just wondering what exactly it is about Stukov in SC2 that makes his infestation so much more awesome than Kaloth's. =/