Zerg Genetics Engineering Retcon?

[Gradius]

No, I meant JUST as the Brood War ended. If you look at the epilogue, she thought it was perhaps a hollow victory with the trials yet to come. So at that point, I'm just not sure WHAT she understood.

I think that's because the whole dark voice stuff is a retcon. Either she gained knowledge of him through the zergs' communal memory or found out some other way. Though I assume it's the former. Still, she'd have been building up her forces anyway.

Kerrigan didn't know that the artifact would be used to revive Amon in WoL.

Remember, in HotS, she was discussing that issue with Stukov, and wondering where Narud would get all the psionic energy from. Stukov speculated that all the psionic energy of the original QoB had to go somewhere when she got blasted by the artifact, and only THEN did Kerrigan see that this probably revived Amon.

Right, I'm just saying that it was pretty detrimental to the cause. :P

Also, just so we're not confused here, you're using Khala Energy to hence forth refer to the "Positive Psi" I keep refering too.

But to remind us all, THE Khala, itself, isn't an energy.
[The Khala ("Path of Ascension") is the main religion of the Khalai protoss. It is based on a psionic philosophy that maintains a communal psionic link between all adherents.[1] Followers are further subdivided into at least five level of adepts.]
It's a discipline. Just so we're clear here and we don't confused are selves.

That's up for debate, as khala energy is used in the lore to refer to templar energies and/or the psionic matrix several times, namely in the manual where it says "High Templar are able to channel the energies of the Khala", and then throughout the Lens of the Void short story.

I've been saying Khala energy but I think the most proper term is actually Khalai energy, the energy that the Khalai people use. I'm having trouble getting onboard with this positive psi and negative psi as it's mentioned nowhere in the lore.

The Quantum Entanglement theory wouldn't work. Q-E in no way transfers energy. Nerve cells have no way of interacting with the Q-E particles and those particles do not "transmit" anything; not information, not energy; they only match states via super positioning. Trust me, I looked at this as well. Quantum Entanglement is only useful when sending data via Quantum Computing but it's not in the ways conventional systems work. Sucks really.

Just to clarify, I know that current QE theory prohibits information transfer, and I'm not saying this is the source of the protoss' power. I'm saying it would be a mechanism to gather/effect energy from outside the protoss' brain. Obviously nerve cells as we know them don't have this ability, but in SC the protoss or terrans could have evolved it (artificially most likely, by the xel'naga and then by the UPL cyberneticists, respectively).

Now, yes, it does suck that you can't control entangled particles as of yet because trying would cause it to take on a random value, but experiments are breaking ground on finding loopholes to this even now. I like to think that with some more advanced technology, the protoss or terrans could have evolved their brains to do this. Basically, QE seems like the most logical choice for how protoss can effect energy beyond their own brain, even if the laws of physics in SC don't match that of ours. =/

I mean, what else is there? Quantum teleportation? Some other force that can draw/gather energy/particles? QE seems like an elegant explanation because having control of actual particles can explain alot:
1) Archon merge. One of the craziest and most ridiculous things in all of SC. But the protoss could influence their entangled particles to turn their bodies into energy and create some sort of chemical bonds that hold them together. Not an easy process, which is why the archon warp takes a while.
2) Telepathy. Reading another mind just becomes a matter of using the entangled particles to detect impulses in the brain, and communication becomes a matter of simulating neural activity with these particles.

Crazy advanced and absurd technology that wouldn't work in our universe. But...it's an explanation. :P

Here is Equi's original post: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post184100

I'm more inclined to accept outer universal energies, energies that have permeated since before the 4 forces were created, Gravity, Electromagnetism, Space and Time. The Higgs Field is one such "energy" force that existed* prior to those forces being created in our particular universe.

I think you mean weak and strong force, not space and time. My only problem with using a force to explain how psionics work is that forces only act on objects, so that explains how psionics might affect something, but not where they get the energy to do work from. A brain generating any kind of force doesn't exactly have precise control.

Since they keep refering to him as needing a ressurection, I assume he's dead. I simply theorized his Death was at the hand of the Zerg and was trying to be more dramatic and clever when describing how he even "influenced" the Overmind to begin with. If we find him in stasis, locked away like some Argus Jewel remake again... I'm going to break my screen while playing LotV...

Well, you know how Blizzard can be... "flexible" with its lore these days. :P

I actually don't understand how somebody can survive the death of his body without being in stasis or the like, so I really hope that it was metaphor. This is sci-fi. You don't just summon Amon back from hell.

And this doesn't seem to make sense. Over Aeons? Zamara really? You mean, the Protoss are willingly going to cross breed? WHAT? Even worse... HOW?
The DT saga broke a few things; especially basic speculations of the Lore. The Aeon of Strife was completely changed and the Xel'naga are turned from being simply, comsmically unique species to some Sooper Spechul people..
If she's taken seriously by the writers, than we're forced to try and figure out how in the F' the Zerg were even chosen to be Purity of Essence when even before Amon's brain washing of the Overmind; the Zerg's only way to merge was via irradications and assimiliatoins... like WTF...

My least favorite of the lore mangling done in that book is the fact that the protoss were reverted to stone-age before the aeon of strife.
1) Contradicts the manual that the protoss were making advanced leaps in technology with the help of the xel'naga.
2) Makes the protoss a young race, not old. Savassan himself said so.
3) The protoss no longer had a lost golden age with crazy advanced technologies that they lost after the strife. Now their "golden age" was just 1000 years ago. That's one protoss lifetime. Pointless. I absolutely how Golden and SC2's writers make everything so small scale. =/

Xel'naga originally came from other Galaxies. Presumably, since Andromeda is the closest, that would be the first Galaxy that Amon will remember prior to our own. I do not see him stopping at the Milky Way if he was to be fleshed out and shown just how motivated he is; plus the results of this plan of his.

My personal theory is that the xel'naga actually created this universe. They were reaching the heat-death of their own universe, and ours bubbled off from theirs, or perhaps they found a way to travel across the multiverse. The only shred of evidence I have to support this is Duran saying the cycle was pre-ordained "when the stars were young" and the Ulaan prophecy saying "The xel'naga, who forged the stars, Will transcend their creation".

But you're right, it's more likely that they just evolved very early on in our universe.

I figured that the only way for this merging to happen is for them to evolve beyond their forms such that they would not be classically recognised as either Protoss or Zerg anymore.

I think that's what Golden was going for. And this is actually one of those cases where I might be fine with the "it's so alien that I can't understand the logic behind it" excuse.

What do you know, Gods are small-minded afterall.

True. Billions upon billions of planets out there in the universe, with galaxies colliding and stars exploding, but God cares more about whether you circumcise your penis here on Earth. :P

Was it in the books that said Kerrigan was preparing to fight the "threat on the horizon"?

I'm thinking of HoTS when Ishza tells Kerrigan "you were preparing us to fight a great battle" but Kerrigan can't remember what.

[ragnarok]

I think that's because the whole dark voice stuff is a retcon. Either she gained knowledge of him through the zergs' communal memory or found out some other way. Though I assume it's the former. Still, she'd have been building up her forces anyway.

See we had originally believed she had been building up her forces because she allowed Mengsk to live, and let the Protoss go, so we believed she was doing this to humiliate them again another day.

Right, I'm just saying that it was pretty detrimental to the cause. :P

Unless Blizzard sheds more light on the artifact in LotV, instead of for the sake of "Deus Ex Machina."

[Einharjar]

[QUOTE=Gradius;192395] That's up for debate, as khala energy is used in the lore to refer to templar energies and/or the psionic matrix several times, namely in the manual where it says "High Templar are able to channel the energies of the Khala", and then throughout the Lens of the Void short story.

I've been saying Khala energy but I think the most proper term is actually Khalai energy, the energy that the Khalai people use. I'm having trouble getting onboard with this positive psi and negative psi as it's mentioned nowhere in the lore.

Just to clarify, I know that current QE theory prohibits information transfer over FTL, and I'm not saying this is the source of the protoss' power. I'm saying it would be a mechanism to gather/effect energy from outside the protoss' brain. Obviously nerve cells as we know them don't have this ability, but in SC the protoss or terrans could have evolved it (artificially most likely, by the xel'naga and then by the UPL cyberneticists, respectively).

Now, yes, it does suck that you can't control entangled particles as of yet because measuring it would cause it to take on a random value, but experiments are breaking ground on finding loopholes to this even now. I like to think that with some more advanced technology, the protoss or terrans could have evolved their brains to do this. Basically, QE seems like the most logical choice for how protoss can effect energy beyond their own brain, even if the laws of physics in SC don't match our laws of physics. =/

I mean, what else is there? Quantum teleportation? Some other force that can draw/gather energy/particles? QE seems like an elegant explanation because having control of actual particles can explain alot:
1) Archon merge. One of the craziest and most ridiculous things in all of SC. But particles can turn into energy. The protoss could influence their entangled particles to turn their bodies' particles into energy or create some sort of chemical bonds that hold them together. Not an easy process, which is why the archon warp takes a while.
2) Telepathy. Reading another mind just becomes a matter of using the entangled particles to detect impulses in the brain, and communication becomes a matter of simulating neural activity with these particles.

Crazy advanced and absurd technology that wouldn't work in our universe. But...it's an explanation. :P

Here is Equi's original post: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...l=1#post184100

Thats the wierd thing though. All QE is really good for is basically Cosmic Morse Code and Teleportation. The "bond" between the two particles in no way transfers anything. So the Psionic cannot just, absorb energy from else where using QE, doesn't work like that. There is literally no energy to absorb. The only benefit to QE is each particle acts a signal, essentially. What one does, the other reverses. So in the manner that Teleportation works, the set amount of "mass" needed for an object attempting to Teleport needs to already be there. So if QE was used to draw energy to create a Psionic Storm, what would basically be happening is a Psionic Storm is already going on else where and is being "teleported" to the designated area. This is fine within itself but then you run into the Problem with our Universe itself not supporting this...
The other issue with this is that Psionics is then relegated to being a part of one of the 4 Forces. That cannot be, as with the amount of energy Psionics seems to manifest (even breaking FTL speeds), there isn't room in our universe's model for any of the 4 force's to include Psionics. It would through off the balance.
The only Energy that seems available is Dark Energy; but Dark Energy increases in Power the farther away any item of mass is as if it were the opposite of gravity. However at least we're looking at a force that can bend light, go FTL and several other requirements.
I'll read the post you gave me though for reference. It still seems interesting.

I think you mean weak and strong force, not space and time. My only problem with using a force to explain how psionics work is that forces only act on objects, so that explains how psionics might affect something, but not where they get the energy to do work from. A brain generating any kind of force doesn't exactly have precise control.

You are absolutely correct. I got up and headed online to correct that. I was distracted and just started blabbing. The two Nuclear Forces are in fact the other forces; ones the Nuclear force that maintains nuclei, the other is weaker Nuclear force that creates radioactive decay. My bad.

Force is our material universe. Matter and Energy are practically the same thing, Just in different states.
The issue with using the Forces is understandable, if for one main reason is that Psionics appears to be so powerful that it can bend space-time, it radiates at FTL and when applied against matter/energy it's extremely destructive (you can blow up planets with this crap....). Thus the issue leads into the above reply. That's a lot of energy that some how, we have not accounted for in our model. All 4 Forces balance each other out and Psionics has no room being one of those 4.
This would mean an entirely new 5th force would have to be applied because all the other forces, Gravity, Electromag, Nuclear and Decay are all accounted for and balance each other out. Gravity is actually seen at first to be the weakest of the forces but math proves it's not. If a 5th force was added, our Physics Model falls a part and so does our universe. To keep this from happening, Psi needs to be made into a intra-comsic energy field like the Higgs Field; one that still exists today and provides something that won't destroy the physics of the universe. Instead, interactions with it cause to show manifestations, like how the Higgs Field and Higgs Boson give particles Mass. It can be an Ethereal field for all I care, a remnant of an older universe or hell, maybe a bleeding energy from the outside universe that simply has no direct effects on anything like Tachyons. What ever it may be. I draw my theories on pure creativity and selecting an outer universe field as the source. The Lore talks about how the Xel'naga had mathematical preferences for things like the Golden Mean, Golden Ratio and other Fibonacci numbers. So in my fanfic, I made a connection between these things in Nature, why Xel'naga appreciated them and how Psionics is attracted to them. It's all fan theory.

The other reason I prefer Psi to have two parts, is that the universe seems to always support two halves. There's usually always an Anti-Everything to promote balance and stability. Thus, since Psi seems to manifest in the form of Energy in what we see in SC and the two seem to alter one another depending on the situation? I promote a "Positive" vs "Negative" adaptation analogous to the Anti vs Non-Anti we see in our current physics. Maybe this trend is quite standard through out the multiverse and so I apply it here too; despite Psi not interfering with our universe's physics model according to SC.

As to why I'm staunchly against calling Psi - Khala - is because the "Khala" wasn't even mentioned until Khas himself. Prior to that, Protoss were innately connected. There was nothing special, no discipline or anything. The Khala was meant to reinvigorate that old tribal Psionic Link. Xel'naga didn't practice it, Zerg don't practice is. There is more evidence stating the Khala as just being a discipline than the Psionic Energy itself. Any scripts that say otherwise is likely leading to yet again, another consistency error within the Lore... which wouldn't surprise me. I do agree though that if anything, it should've been Khalai** energy, as in; the writer was refering to the Psi that Khalai specifically focus.

Well, you know how Blizzard can be... "flexible" with its lore these days. :P

[rolls eyes] ...yea, unfortunately.

I actually don't understand how somebody can survive the death of his body without being in stasis or the like, so I really hope that it was metaphor. This is sci-fi. You don't just summon Amon back from hell.

Well Sci Fi even has room for that. This is no different that the idea of the Matrix Films where the brain's conscious could be transferred else where or onto another rmedia. This is no different the few philanthropists today dumping money into the R&D searching for ways to "down load the brain" so that a willing individual can be a recycled as a new vessel in the future. The Brain is just an organ that contain information and accesses information via circuitry. Amon simply transfers his mental being into the Overmind's in order to preserve what really makes a sentient being sentient; the mind of one. I can still see my theory working via Sci Fi mannerisms with more detail involved. Of course, one of the ways of making this cool sci fi idea is by explaining Psi. I don't know, we're all being more creative here than Blizzard is at any rate so we all deserve a Scratch-n-Sniff for effort at least!

My least favorite of the lore mangling done in that book is the fact that the protoss were reverted to stone-age before the aeon of strife.
1) Contradicts the manual that the protoss were making advanced leaps in technology with the help of the xel'naga.
2) Makes the protoss a young race, not old. Savassan himself said so.
3) The protoss no longer had a lost golden age with crazy advanced technologies that they lost after the strife. Now their "golden age" was just 1000 years ago. That's one protoss lifetime. Pointless. I absolutely how Golden and SC2's writers make everything so small scale. =/

I hear you on every thing here... Ragnorok and I were talking about that last night.

My personal theory is that the xel'naga actually created this universe. They were reaching the heat-death of their own universe, and ours bubbled off from theirs, or perhaps they found a way to travel across the multiverse. The only shred of evidence I have to support this is Duran saying the cycle was pre-ordained "when the stars were young" and the Ulaan prophecy saying "The xel'naga, who forged the stars, Will transcend their creation".

But you're right, it's more likely that they just evolved very early on in our universe.

Sometimes they make things sound overly poetic to make it sound worth while. Like, Techno-babble, the stuff Hollywood writers use to make scientific topics sound like they know what they are writing when they don't. I mean, if they were actually able to create solar systems, birth stars and create the Universe with each generation.. wouldn't they have already transcended any creation they made? It's more like the other way around... when they die, their creations transcend them and continue on.

I think that's what Golden was going for. And this is actually one of those cases where I might be fine with the "it's so alien that I can't understand the logic behind it" excuse.

This is a neat idea but it throws the whole Cycle thing into such a catastrophic lore failure it's unreal. Instead of making things more consistent, she makes things even LESS consistent. Now they have to describe that very scenario to make sense. Now the purity of form and purity of essence needs a major over haul. Will these forms even stay as those creatures evolve? And how does this even make sense to begin with when the Zerg's prior history even before the Overmind was predatory assimilation. Not only that but the Protoss are dying out due to lack of reproductive success...
Alien idea yes, but still pathetic. I'd rather deal with the old speculation that the two species naturally war like... well... nature usually does. Nature is chaotic as hell and having two species "peacefully merge over a really long time because that's the easiest idea I could come up with" just... doesn't fit.

[ragnarok]

I hear you on every thing here... Ragnorok and I were talking about that last night.

For me, I'm just not sure how you can make the Protoss lore still match that of the SC1 manual anymore.

This is a neat idea but it throws the whole Cycle thing into such a catastrophic lore failure it's unreal. Instead of making things more consistent, she makes things even LESS consistent. Now they have to describe that very scenario to make sense. Now the purity of form and purity of essence needs a major over haul. Will these forms even stay as those creatures evolve? And how does this even make sense to begin with when the Zerg's prior history even before the Overmind was predatory assimilation. Not only that but the Protoss are dying out due to lack of reproductive success...
Alien idea yes, but still pathetic. I'd rather deal with the old speculation that the two species naturally war like... well... nature usually does. Nature is chaotic as hell and having two species "peacefully merge over a really long time because that's the easiest idea I could come up with" just... doesn't fit.

This is the problem of the forms. When it comes to evolution, form and essence both have to change. Sometimes this change is a good thing, other times it's a bad thing. Sometimes there's a huge change, other times it's so small you can barely even notice.

And it's not like the Protoss are COMPLETELY stuck in a time bubble where they don't evolve AT ALL. You can argue that the Dark Templar Saga books weren't good because they contradicted the SC1 manual, but those books showed that Protoss society and civilization can also evolve, but only when it suits their needs.

You'd think this would present problems to the Xel'Naga in that it's possible by the time the Zerg and Protoss meet (according to their original plan), both species had evolved to the point where the merging won't work anymore to create a new generation of Xel'Naga...

[Turalyon]

Unless Amon cannot control the swarm HIMSELF and needs the hybrids to, which to me seems unlikely.

I still don't see why he would need to since he can create the Hybrids secretly and use them to kill the Protoss easily bypassing the need for the Zerg altogether. Without the Overmind, which Ein proposes was no use to Amon and which he didn't care if it died but preferred that it did, the Zerg are even more useless.

So maybe the Overmind expected her to eventually leave Char and go after them or something, it was never clear for that.

Yeah, you're not getting my point that the Overmind did not "leave" Kerrigan in safety nor "force" her to stay there for safety either. The Sc2 retcon hinges on the Overmind on "leaving/forcing Kerrigan on Char for her safety" to explain the non-existent plot-hole of Kerrigan not joining the Overmind on Aiur.

You don't get it, Turalyon. Duran helped her get more power because by the beginning of BW, her psionic power level was still INSUFFICIENT to revive Amon right away.That could be why he helped her, so that once she WAS finally blasted by the artifact, the hybrids would reap the max benefit.

It's no wonder I don't get it because none of this was anywhere near implicit with what we had to go on from Sc1/BW alone. That last sentence is moot because it's just speculation based on a fact that was not even made tacit in the first place.

Besides, if you recall from the Hand of Darkness and Phantoms of the Void mission, Duran/Narud was certainly surprised that Kerrigan made it so far, indicating that he too didn't think she was capable of pulling this off.

Yes, well, you've just poked another hole in Ein's theory. I'm running off Ein's assumption that Duran is aware of a "prophetic threat". You'll have to take that up with him...

You forget that Duran wasn't on Ulaan when Zeratul uncovered the prophecy. It's possible that maybe because of what happened to Raszagal, Duran didn't expect Zeratul to help Kerrigan. Hell, for all we know, when she fought him at the end of Phantoms of the Void, Duran might not have even known that the new infestation was a primal infestation.

Once again, I'm pointing out an issue of Ein's theory in that Duran and/or Amon are aware of some prophetic threat to their scheme.

Duran, at the least, knows the artifact was used for its proper purpose by the end of WoL and should be expected to know its full effects given he's the hidden instigator. If Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon prior to the artifacts activation (which negates Ein's supposition that the Overmind killed itself to free kerrigan because by saying she's still under Amon's influence even after that, the Overmind suicide theory is bunk!) as Ein mentions, Duran just ruined the safety net of her still being enthralled by Amon. He should have known this was a stupid move, especially when Ein supposes that Duran is also aware of a "prophetic" threat.

I'm thinking of HoTS when Ishza tells Kerrigan "you were preparing us to fight a great battle" but Kerrigan can't remember what.

Yeah, but we only knew that in HotS after the fact. It's kinda like most retcons, it's trying to be self-justifying without giving details. Who knows, maybe she was preparing a battle against the rest of the Terrans and Protoss and then shifted priority to this "threat" before realising she couldn't do it after finding more info on the situation and then got all depressed just in time for her appearance in WoL, all the while telling none of the Queens about it. *Shrugs*

[ragnarok]

I still don't see why he would need to since he can create the Hybrids secretly and use them to kill the Protoss easily bypassing the need for the Zerg altogether. Without the Overmind, which Ein proposes was no use to Amon and which he didn't care if it died but preferred that it did, the Zerg are even more useless.

I'm more curious if Amon actually created a single hybrid BY HIMSELF before he passed away, or if all the hybrids had been done by Duran/Narud.

Yeah, you're not getting my point that the Overmind did not "leave" Kerrigan in safety nor "force" her to stay there for safety either. The Sc2 retcon hinges on the Overmind on "leaving/forcing Kerrigan on Char for her safety" to explain the non-existent plot-hole of Kerrigan not joining the Overmind on Aiur.

Well then, what do you think would have happened after the Aiur invasion? What would the Overmind had done if it actually WON? Maybe it also left Kerrigan on Char because it did not want her to share in the power it would gain.

It's certainly be a better answer than just "it left her on Char in the event it failed and was killed."

It's no wonder I don't get it because none of this was anywhere near implicit with what we had to go on from Sc1/BW alone. That last sentence is moot because it's just speculation based on a fact that was not even made tacit in the first place.

Of course not, because Blizzard didn't THINK OF THAT at that time. That's why they tried to increase Kerrigan's power, so that if you raise this Q at a Q and A panel, they would say her psionic energy wasn't enough during the BW, hence why Duran had to wait.

Yes, well, you've just poked another hole in Ein's theory. I'm running off Ein's assumption that Duran is aware of a "prophetic threat". You'll have to take that up with him...

I agree that Duran knew Kerrigan was a prophetic threat, this is why even in Flashpoint he wanted to study her, despite the deinfestation. But I believe Duran only felt Kerrigan would be a very MINOR threat after the deinfestation because Raynor would never allow her to go back to the Zerg. Therefore, she'd have no way to reinfest herself again.

Once again, I'm pointing out an issue of Ein's theory in that Duran and/or Amon are aware of some prophetic threat to their scheme.

Not so much for Amon, since he had only been recently revived. Besides, if Amon could see into the future like that, he would have seen the Overmind would ultimately do something to defy him.

Duran, at the least, knows the artifact was used for its proper purpose by the end of WoL and should be expected to know its full effects given he's the hidden instigator. If Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon prior to the artifacts activation (which negates Ein's supposition that the Overmind killed itself to free kerrigan because by saying she's still under Amon's influence even after that, the Overmind suicide theory is bunk!) as Ein mentions, Duran just ruined the safety net of her still being enthralled by Amon. He should have known this was a stupid move, especially when Ein supposes that Duran is also aware of a "prophetic" threat.

No, blasting her with the artifact isn't a stupid move because Duran did not expect a reinfestation. Remember, since he was at Kerrigan's side during the BW, he would have known of Kerrigan's feelings for Raynor, even with Amon's influence. Therefore, he must have felt that with the deinfestation, Raynor would never allow her to even go back to the Zerg, let alone reinfest herself.

Thus the one thing he didn't factor in wasn't Raynor or Kerrigan, it was Zeratul. Remember, although leading the Zerg for revenge on Mengsk for killing Raynor, Kerrigan wasn't thinking of reinfestation at all. It was only when Zeratul told her that Zerus would have the power to allow her to take her revenge that she agreed to go there.

[Einharjar]

I still don't see why he would need to since he can create the Hybrids secretly and use them to kill the Protoss easily bypassing the need for the Zerg altogether. Without the Overmind, which Ein proposes was no use to Amon and which he didn't care if it died but preferred that it did, the Zerg are even more useless.

The Overmind WAS of use. It was the unifier of the species. What I was trying to get across in my theory was that Amon bumped heads with his brethren and forced the Protoss over exposure, causing their ego to blow up and force his kind to leave them early. He then uses that failure as reasoning to create a creature that forcfully unifies the Zerg to prevent that same mistake. He needs the Overmind to control the whole Swarm, and he succeeds. He only uses the Overmind as a Steering wheel. By the time it reaches Auir and Effs up the Protoss, it's role of becomming a living batter ram is complete. The Overmind was only there to lead the Zerg as a whole to their required destination: the Protoss's door step.

Yeah, you're not getting my point that the Overmind did not "leave" Kerrigan in safety nor "force" her to stay there for safety either. The Sc2 retcon hinges on the Overmind on "leaving/forcing Kerrigan on Char for her safety" to explain the non-existent plot-hole of Kerrigan not joining the Overmind on Aiur.

You're right here. However, the rectons whole idea of the Overmind purposely leaving Kerrigan behind solves that plot hole. It makes many more but this is one of those in SC1 that gets explained. The interlude between the Char missions and the Auir missions explains how she's continues to hunt for Zeratul and Tassadar on Char, mean while the Overmind leaves for Auir. Sounds premature. So the whole idea that the Overmind left her on Char, as if abandonment or something then makes sense if it was trying to purposely kill itself like Amon wanted (if he did want this). The Overmind lets Amon get what he want's, but also what it wants too. Kerrigan is left safe, in a position to immediately begin supplanting Cerebrates. The Overmind took 3 with him and they all die, leaving the Swarm easy pickings for the Brood Wars. It get's what it wants. It dies, taking it's corruption with it. 3 more Cerebrates DIE, taking their corruption with them. Kerrigan is all that's left at the end of the Brood Wars only she has was purposefully left with her Spirit intact. If not for her depressive mood in WoL (which was entirely out've character and unlike her) it was MORE than possible that Kerrigan could've found out the secrets herself. According to WoL, she had. During those 4 years off, her and Zeratul both were Prophecy hunting. So she was finding out her place in things; she was just "hopeless" about it.

It's no wonder I don't get it because none of this was anywhere near implicit with what we had to go on from Sc1/BW alone. That last sentence is moot because it's just speculation based on a fact that was not even made tacit in the first place.

I agree with you here. It is still debatable that this is even why Duran stuck around. My theory is that he was watching her, manipulating her to keep her focused on being a Bitch rather than a leader of the Swarm and not doing Zerg focused things. I don't know. In SC1, Duran's experiments seemed directly linked to Duran's exposure to Kerrigan; like he studied her or something. However that just does seem the case now. The whole "help her get powerful" doesn't make sense either because the Amerigo mission was her unlocking herself. No need for Duran then. Plus the whole slaughter of countless Protoss should've provided all of the Psionics needed for whatever reason, more than any Class 12 Psionic could ever achieve. Hell if this was the case, then why not K.O. Ulrezaj and recycle his Energy. That guy is WAAAY above Kerrigan in psionic prowess. In the end, we don't really know how Amon will be resurrected. That has yet to be exposed.

Yes, well, you've just poked another hole in Ein's theory. I'm running off Ein's assumption that Duran is aware of a "prophetic threat". You'll have to take that up with him...

Duran was surprised because Kerrigan isn't supposed to win against them and yet, there she is. Still persisting... what's the confusing? I mean I know this prophecy crap is just that; crap... but still it's very simplistic.

Once again, I'm pointing out an issue of Ein's theory in that Duran and/or Amon are aware of some prophetic threat to their scheme.

Duran, at the least, knows the artifact was used for its proper purpose by the end of WoL and should be expected to know its full effects given he's the hidden instigator. If Kerrigan was still under the influence of Amon prior to the artifacts activation (which negates Ein's supposition that the Overmind killed itself to free kerrigan because by saying she's still under Amon's influence even after that, the Overmind suicide theory is bunk!) as Ein mentions, Duran just ruined the safety net of her still being enthralled by Amon. He should have known this was a stupid move, especially when Ein supposes that Duran is also aware of a "prophetic" threat.

Amon didn't get along with his own kind and supposedly, the Xel'naga made the Prophecies and locked them on Ulaan. The problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referming it. The important note from the QnA is that the Xel'naga didn't like him and they supposedly write a blackmail note on Ulaan calling him out on his crap. These prophecies have nothing to do with victory, but in fact they predictions of Amon's success. If they (Amon and Duran) don't see how they can succeed, prophecy or not? I don't know what else to say... I hope you get what I'm saying here. The Prophecy is more like a tattle-tale for any who looks at it "If this douche bag is set free, this is his plan. Don't elect him as president, plox. kthnxbie". So it's not just assuming that Duran and Amon know the Prophecy, the Prophecy is literally their plan of action... meaning they basically created the bloody scriptures and their brothers blabbed their ideas on some slabs of rock to let their secrets out...

Yeah, but we only knew that in HotS after the fact. It's kinda like most retcons, it's trying to be self-justifying without giving details. Who knows, maybe she was preparing a battle against the rest of the Terrans and Protoss and then shifted priority to this "threat" before realising she couldn't do it after finding more info on the situation and then got all depressed just in time for her appearance in WoL, all the while telling none of the Queens about it. *Shrugs*

I had no problems connecting the HotS POV with WoL POV for Kerrigan. Kerrigan is clearly hopeless, but still intending to go out with a bang in WoL when she explains how she's already aware of the Prophecies on Ulaan. It's a weak connection; but we've gotta' take what we can get from Blizz these days...

[ragnarok]

I had no problems connecting the HotS POV with WoL POV for Kerrigan. Kerrigan is clearly hopeless, but still intending to go out with a bang in WoL when she explains how she's already aware of the Prophecies on Ulaan. It's a weak connection; but we've gotta' take what we can get from Blizz these days...

And in retrospect you can still consider that her mentality by the end of HotS. The swarm can't beat Amon, but she has no allies beyond the swarm anyway.

Amon didn't get along with his own kind and supposedly, the Xel'naga made the Prophecies and locked them on Ulaan. The problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referming it. The important note from the QnA is that the Xel'naga didn't like him and they supposedly write a blackmail note on Ulaan calling him out on his crap. These prophecies have nothing to do with victory, but in fact they predictions of Amon's success. If they (Amon and Duran) don't see how they can succeed, prophecy or not? I don't know what else to say... I hope you get what I'm saying here. The Prophecy is more like a tattle-tale for any who looks at it "If this douche bag is set free, this is his plan. Don't elect him as president, plox. kthnxbie". So it's not just assuming that Duran and Amon know the Prophecy, the Prophecy is literally their plan of action... meaning they basically created the bloody scriptures and their brothers blabbed their ideas on some slabs of rock to let their secrets out...

Are you sure they wrote the prophecy BEFORE everything went to hell? I would have expected that after the Zerg corruption, Amon used it to kill his kind, but some were able to escape long enough to carve out the prophecy on Ulaan.

Duran was surprised because Kerrigan isn't supposed to win against them and yet, there she is. Still persisting... what's the confusing? I mean I know this prophecy crap is just that; crap... but still it's very simplistic.

This is just another frustration of we should get to know just WHAT Duran is, so we can tell just what powers Amon gave him and all that.

The whole "help her get powerful" doesn't make sense either because the Amerigo mission was her unlocking herself. No need for Duran then. Plus the whole slaughter of countless Protoss should've provided all of the Psionics needed for whatever reason, more than any Class 12 Psionic could ever achieve. Hell if this was the case, then why not K.O. Ulrezaj and recycle his Energy. That guy is WAAAY above Kerrigan in psionic prowess. In the end, we don't really know how Amon will be resurrected. That has yet to be exposed.

That's hard to say. Kerrigan's psionics were growing in power after the Amerigo, but perhaps they weren't growing at a fast enough rate to satisfy Duran, hence the need to help her get more.

As for KOing Ulrezaj, it's possible that as one of his agents, Amon had other plans for him or something. Besides, you can't fully say that he's WAY above Kerrigan in psionic powers because the two of them never faced each other in combat.

During those 4 years off, her and Zeratul both were Prophecy hunting. So she was finding out her place in things; she was just "hopeless" about it.

Well that hopelessness is for a good reason. After what happened in the BW, she knows no one will listen to her anymore. She has no more allies, and Amon is too powerful to beat with the swarm alone. Thus it's likely that Kerrigan discovered his threat during those 4 years, and with that, came the realization that by not making long term allies in the BW, it's now come back to bite her.

As for the Overmind's actions that you explained, it makes sense. I was always curious if Duran had kept a close eye on the Overmind to make sure it didn't try any defiance tricks or anything like that, hence why the Overmind had to make it seem like it was still 100% loyal.

[Turalyon]

I'm more curious if Amon actually created a single hybrid BY HIMSELF before he passed away, or if all the hybrids had been done by Duran/Narud.

Anything can happen since it hasn't been explicitly said it can't. Even then, nothing's set in stone nor can be taken for granted. This is where Blizz is at in terms of writing now - the fictional universe does not feel natural or behave in a way that will determine itself but what the writers dictate what it will be at any given time. It doesn't matter either way if the Hybrid was created then or later, you can justify it both ways with retcon after retcon as required later on.

Well then, what do you think would have happened after the Aiur invasion? What would the Overmind had done if it actually WON? Maybe it also left Kerrigan on Char because it did not want her to share in the power it would gain.

It's certainly be a better answer than just "it left her on Char in the event it failed and was killed."

There's no use asking all those questions you're asking because they are irrelevent to the matter at hand and any answers given are purely conjecture from that point. As mentioned previously, the question of why the Overmind left Kerrigan on Char did not warrant a question at all because the answer was already self-evident at the time (ie: to kill the most dangerous and newest element of the Protoss that actually posed the biggest threat against the Zerg).

Of course not, because Blizzard didn't THINK OF THAT at that time. That's why they tried to increase Kerrigan's power, so that if you raise this Q at a Q and A panel, they would say her psionic energy wasn't enough during the BW, hence why Duran had to wait.

That's right, you've just correctly identified it as an ass-pull because it came out of nowhere. And the audience is to blame for calling out what is clearly a cop-out?

I agree that Duran knew Kerrigan was a prophetic threat, this is why even in Flashpoint he wanted to study her, despite the deinfestation. But I believe Duran only felt Kerrigan would be a very MINOR threat after the deinfestation because Raynor would never allow her to go back to the Zerg. Therefore, she'd have no way to reinfest herself again.

Once again, you're running along with implicit knowledge that is nowhere near hinted at the time. If Kerrigan was wholly under Amon's influence before the deinfestation (as Ein suggests), she was NO threat to them at all. With the deinfestation she has now become a potential threat (major or minor) because there are no guarantees now that she has her "free will" back. He's actually upgraded her potential threat level by deinfesting her and given that he'd also be aware of the prophetic threat, he should be more paranoid and proactive at trying to stop loose ends from occurring. If there were any hint of her being the prophetic threat whilst originally infested, he would've killed her ages ago.

Besides, if Amon could see into the future like that, he would have seen the Overmind would ultimately do something to defy him.

But Amon does know. He himself states that Kerrigan was the only thing that could stop him in the Overmind's vision. So unless you're prepared to debunk that Overmind vision as having no prophetic value at all, as in it made up that speech about Amon (which itself is a pitfall in that it cements WoL as being totally devoid anything of value in terms of plot progression), there's not much more can be said. See how prophecies are just utter junk and crutches to a poor story?

No, blasting her with the artifact isn't a stupid move because Duran did not expect a reinfestation. Remember, since he was at Kerrigan's side during the BW, he would have known of Kerrigan's feelings for Raynor, even with Amon's influence. Therefore, he must have felt that with the deinfestation, Raynor would never allow her to even go back to the Zerg, let alone reinfest herself.

Why would Kerrigan tell Duran about her feelings for Raynor and when did this happen if at all? The lay Sc fan know next to nothing of this either way. As mentioned above, it's a stupid move because it leaves a loose end for the prophetic threat to still occur. If Duran had ever given credence in the idea of a prophetic threat (as Ein suggests), he would have made doubly sure that Kerrigan was dead no matter what.

The Overmind WAS of use. It was the unifier of the species. What I was trying to get across in my theory was that Amon bumped heads with his brethren and forced the Protoss over exposure, causing their ego to blow up and force his kind to leave them early. He then uses that failure as reasoning to create a creature that forcfully unifies the Zerg to prevent that same mistake. He needs the Overmind to control the whole Swarm, and he succeeds. He only uses the Overmind as a Steering wheel. By the time it reaches Auir and Effs up the Protoss, it's role of becomming a living batter ram is complete. The Overmind was only there to lead the Zerg as a whole to their required destination: the Protoss's door step.

So Amon creates a steering well for a vehicle that has the capacity to completely destroy the thing it actually needs most to revive itself. Wonderful plan.

He could have just made them all docile on Zerus and then slowly pick and take samples from the isolated Protoss and Zerg species at a whim to slowly build up his secret army of Hybrids. Without either of the two races knowing, he can build them up to a point where he could each of them in turn and methodically guarantee reviving himself.

However, the rectons whole idea of the Overmind purposely leaving Kerrigan behind solves that plot hole. It makes many more but this is one of those in SC1 that gets explained.

But my point is that there was no plot hole to begin with and, as such, that the retcon is unnecessary whatsoever.

The interlude between the Char missions and the Auir missions explains how she's continues to hunt for Zeratul and Tassadar on Char, mean while the Overmind leaves for Auir. Sounds premature.

Not really. The Overmind is striking while the "iron is still hot". It's covering it's bases by using Kerrigan (his greatest agent in which he has absolute confidence) to kill the Dark Templar and prevent a dangerous flanking attack from them whilst it proceeds to nuke their homeworld knowing from Zeratul that his kind are the only real threat and that Aiur harbors no such threats. Had the Overmind won, it would've been lauded as a brilliant tactical move. Go figure.

I agree with you here. It is still debatable that this is even why Duran stuck around. My theory is that he was watching her, manipulating her to keep her focused on being a Bitch rather than a leader of the Swarm and not doing Zerg focused things. I don't know. In SC1, Duran's experiments seemed directly linked to Duran's exposure to Kerrigan; like he studied her or something. However that just does seem the case now. The whole "help her get powerful" doesn't make sense either because the Amerigo mission was her unlocking herself. No need for Duran then. Plus the whole slaughter of countless Protoss should've provided all of the Psionics needed for whatever reason, more than any Class 12 Psionic could ever achieve. Hell if this was the case, then why not K.O. Ulrezaj and recycle his Energy. That guy is WAAAY above Kerrigan in psionic prowess. In the end, we don't really know how Amon will be resurrected. That has yet to be exposed.

Yeah, it's funny how all these retcons have done nothing but make less sense of everything when they're supposed to be doing the opposite.

Duran was surprised because Kerrigan isn't supposed to win against them and yet, there she is. Still persisting... what's the confusing?

If I was Duran and knew Kerrigan was reportedly the "prophetic threat", I would never be surprised at what she ends up capable of doing to harm my agenda nor underestimate her in anyway because, you know, she was prophesied to do such a thing afterall.... I would try my darndest to kill her straight-away to try and thwart that prophecy (incidentally, just like what the "heroes" in Sc2 are doing right now) - yet he does not even make the attempt.

Amon didn't get along with his own kind and supposedly, the Xel'naga made the Prophecies and locked them on Ulaan. The problem is, that info was only noted at a QnA panel, so we have yet to see that actually become official literature with the exception of what we saw in WoL kind'a referming it. The important note from the QnA is that the Xel'naga didn't like him and they supposedly write a blackmail note on Ulaan calling him out on his crap. These prophecies have nothing to do with victory, but in fact they predictions of Amon's success. If they (Amon and Duran) don't see how they can succeed, prophecy or not? I don't know what else to say... I hope you get what I'm saying here. The Prophecy is more like a tattle-tale for any who looks at it "If this douche bag is set free, this is his plan. Don't elect him as president, plox. kthnxbie". So it's not just assuming that Duran and Amon know the Prophecy, the Prophecy is literally their plan of action... meaning they basically created the bloody scriptures and their brothers blabbed their ideas on some slabs of rock to let their secrets out...

Not sure how this relates/is in response to my quote.

Either way, in short, you're saying the prophecies are not prophecies but predictions. They are two different things. Besides, the Ulaan prophecy is different from the prophetic dream that the Overmind has of Amon revealing his own weakness. Is that supposed to be taken as a prediction as well? Funny, how everything else to do with prophecy is disregarded as being changeable whilst this information about Kerrigan appears not to be. In such a case, one can only hope Kerrigan has no bearing on Amon's death to render the entire nature of prophecy in Sc as being bunk.

[ragnarok]

Anything can happen since it hasn't been explicitly said it can't. Even then, nothing's set in stone nor can be taken for granted. This is where Blizz is at in terms of writing now - the fictional universe does not feel natural or behave in a way that will determine itself but what the writers dictate what it will be at any given time. It doesn't matter either way if the Hybrid was created then or later, you can justify it both ways with retcon after retcon as required later on.

And this is exactly the problem with them keeping everything vague. It's to make a backdoor for themselves so they can eventually tell the fans, "Ah, but that's not the EXACT thing we said, remember?"

There's no use asking all those questions you're asking because they are irrelevent to the matter at hand and any answers given are purely conjecture from that point. As mentioned previously, the question of why the Overmind left Kerrigan on Char did not warrant a question at all because the answer was already self-evident at the time (ie: to kill the most dangerous and newest element of the Protoss that actually posed the biggest threat against the Zerg).

If it was to deal with the biggest threat of the Zerg, the Overmind should have first attacked Shakuras, not Aiur. Remember, due to the brief mind touch with Zeratul, the Overmind should have known the location of Shakuras as well. If that planet is full of Dark Templar, THEY are the bigger threat.

That's right, you've just correctly identified it as an ass-pull because it came out of nowhere. And the audience is to blame for calling out what is clearly a cop-out?

No, I'm saying it's only a POSSIBILITY. Obviously Blizzard wasn't thinking that far, so maybe that's an answer they'd tell the fans if that Q was raised.

Once again, you're running along with implicit knowledge that is nowhere near hinted at the time. If Kerrigan was wholly under Amon's influence before the deinfestation (as Ein suggests), she was NO threat to them at all. With the deinfestation she has now become a potential threat (major or minor) because there are no guarantees now that she has her "free will" back. He's actually upgraded her potential threat level by deinfesting her and given that he'd also be aware of the prophetic threat, he should be more paranoid and proactive at trying to stop loose ends from occurring. If there were any hint of her being the prophetic threat whilst originally infested, he would've killed her ages ago.

But the fact remains you DON'T KNOW what Kerrigan was planning in amassing the Zerg on Char for so long. All Izsha said was preparing for a great war. We saw Kerrigan was pessmistic about it, but her mood could have changed if things turned out well. It's entirely possible that if the swarm HAD assimilated the terrans and Protoss, it might have been strong enough to beat Amon. If that happened, then even under the influence, Kerrigan would have remained a threat to him. If that was the case, then it could explain why Duran had to choose the deinfestation option to reduce her power and fracture the swarm.

But Amon does know. He himself states that Kerrigan was the only thing that could stop him in the Overmind's vision. So unless you're prepared to debunk that Overmind vision as having no prophetic value at all, as in it made up that speech about Amon (which itself is a pitfall in that it cements WoL as being totally devoid anything of value in terms of plot progression), there's not much more can be said. See how prophecies are just utter junk and crutches to a poor story?

No, no, you don't understand. That's only what we saw in the Overmind's vision of the future. It's possible that by the time he passed away, he didn't know. Maybe even JUST as he was revived, he didn't know. It's possible that many only years after his revival, did he see the threat Kerrigan posed, but by then the Protoss already had a plan in mind to kill her, and succeeded.

Why would Kerrigan tell Duran about her feelings for Raynor and when did this happen if at all? The lay Sc fan know next to nothing of this either way. As mentioned above, it's a stupid move because it leaves a loose end for the prophetic threat to still occur. If Duran had ever given credence in the idea of a prophetic threat (as Ein suggests), he would have made doubly sure that Kerrigan was dead no matter what.

Likely, unless Duran had ulterior motives of his own after Amon was revived. For example, it's possible that Duran wasn't loyal to Amon at all, and after his revival, wanted all the power for himself. Therefore, he wanted Amon revived as quickly as possible so he could eventually steal his master's power. If that's the case, it could explain why he didn't kill Kerrigan and all that.