Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

[Gradius]

But... it's the Prophecy! Zeratul just wants you to stay a while and listen!

Oh wow, that is just like the Ulaan prophecy. Depressing. The 3 franchises really are starting to bleed together.

[TheEconomist]

Like I've been saying for a while now, WarCraft is a few games ahead, Diablo is a few games behind. If the only similiaritirs were story related, I wouldn't be so bad, but almost everything about the franchises is becoming more and more WarCraft.

[Turalyon]

But... it's the Prophecy! Zeratul just wants you to stay a while and listen!

Yes, "more sophisticated" indeed...

[Shadow Archon]

Where you getting this from? He talks in his own voice and clearly mentions protoss. He is obviously lucid.

Exactly.

When he forms the vision he is lucid and knows alt he pieces.

The confusing imagery and whatnot is purely implanted into him when he is being formed and created.

He constructs the vision from these pieces later on.

Based on what? He was "raging in the prison of his own mind". What was he raging about if he didn't know anything? Don't invent lore.

...

I think there is some misunderstanding.

He knew the vision later on, but when he was being created, he didn't.

Yes, he was "raging in a prison in his own mind" but that's on the subconscious level, not on the conscious.

That's easily explained by Zeratul and Tassadar adding their own information & knowledge to the Overmind's scenario.

Unless you have proof that they did that, I see no reason to believe that happened.

The Q&A is pretty clear that it is. It's a scenario he pieced together from incomplete information. That's kind of the definition of a guess.

But he got more accurate information along the way, and constructed the vision sometime after he consumed the Xel'naga.

Again, that quote is specifically talking bout the information inside the Overmind when he was being created. Not during the events of Starcraft.

So you believe that Amon will win and everyone will die?

If Kerrigan died?

Exactly.

Seeing a vision of the future immediately changes the future given that they now know what is coming, but that doesn't mean Amon's plan is any different with the hybrids.

Yes, it definitely can, because the lead writer said so. You can't invent your own fanon to contradict his answer.

He did not say that.

What he says is:

"The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

These images were confusing to a being just being born into the world.

Given that during the vision, he knows what the protoss are, we see the Protoss hierarchy, the exact form of a solar system that is confirmed to be an actual place by Raynor and so on, I do not see why the vision is untrustworthy.

Not at all, but it could easily turn out to be any of these things. With Blizzard and their "true from a certain point of view" angle with their retroactive continuity, I would never discount the possibility of the vision as being false.

Are you realy going with "anything could be right, absolutely anything!" based on the Amon retcon?

The additive retcon wasn't bad in my opinion, it added what it needed to in the lore going on what the EU expanded on, and Blizzard is working on connecting every source into one universe. It perfectly explains why the Zerg and the Protoss are not compatible, when they should be, and I like that.

And I'd think the best approach is to just go with what is currently in the lore. Don't even concern yourself with future retcons just yet.

Also, given that the Overmind has never shown any form of precognitive ability before there are no guarantees that it's vision is actually "precognitive". It's an assigned label you chose to graft onto it.

Yes, because it fits the bill perfectly. We ourselves see the vision, and see several things that the Overmind has no knowledge of, and is correct in what they are outside of the vision.

As such, it was a precognitive vision.

What the vision really is (of precognitive type or not), is just an overwrought plot device.

The vision isn't elaborate or complicated at all. I wouldn't say its overwrought.

There is no proof of this.

Given what Preservers do and the knowledge swap in the original Starcraft, I think there is enough proof to imply that.

All we know that they're visions or memories. All of which can be faked.

And unless there is something that outright says they are fake or heavily implies, when we see what goes on in the vision ourselves that matches with the lore, I have no reason to make the assumption they were faked.

Zeratul could've found a map/artifact that said "Zerus is here!" to explain how he knows where Zerus was (afterall, the game didn't say that this wasn't possible).

Possible or not, we don't know.

I think my explanation has a basis for how he discovered it, and is actually ironic when you think about it.

Also, knowledge of a physical place is different from something that is intangible like a vision. Proof of one thing doesn't always mean proof of another thing.

True, but we see that the location of the final battle is a physical place, we know the characters involved are physicaly the same elsewhere, we know the Hybrids look the same as when Raynor and Sarah comes across them by themselves, we know that the Zerg strains are the same even though the information was gained centuries or millennia before they were brought into the swarm, we see the Protoss use weapons that were only invented after the Overmind's death, and so on.

I'm not seeing anything that indicates the vision is untrustworthy other then a "maybe."

Truth from a certain point of view is just an excuse for boldfaced lies.

I'm not sure if that's even a valid point of view, because it just sounds plain wrong.

The Truth is the truth.

A lie is a lie.

One can not be the other or "excuse" the other.

It's the thing about the possibility that the "Overmind is not really the Overmind".

...Based on?

Sauron is nothing like Amon.

Really?

Fallen Maiar / Fallen Xel'naga.

Wants to take creation into their own hands.

Creates races that are inherently destructive.

Wants to enslave/eradicate all life.

Was once beautiful, but now they are a twisted form of their former self.

The connection with the shadows, and the entire resurrection bit.

I'm seeing plenty of similarities.

Mind you, Amon has no Morgoth, but still.

Which, incidentally, BW also cops the same amount of flak for.

Really?

I was fine with those elements.

That it's character was rendered away into nothing more than a plot device.

I don't look at it like that.

His character was not present in SC2 because he was dead.

Gone, kaput.

The impact he still had is easily there. Kerrigan, the Zerg on Aiur, and so forth.

His memories, and the vision was the plot device, but his corpse was just the container for that.

He wasn't a plot device.

Nope.

I like the EU though, and I'd think you'd get some enjoyment out of it if you gave the good stuff a chance.

[Gradius]

Exactly.

When he forms the vision he is lucid and knows alt he pieces.

The confusing imagery and whatnot is purely implanted into him when he is being formed and created.

He constructs the vision from these pieces later on.

Ergo he constructs a scenario from confusing pieces.

...

I think there is some misunderstanding.

He knew the vision later on, but when he was being created, he didn't.

Do you have any proof?

Yes, he was "raging in a prison in his own mind" but that's on the subconscious level, not on the conscious.

Subconscious doesn't mean you're completely ignorant of it, just that it's not in focal awareness. I'm not a psychologist, but your statement doesn't seem to make much sense.

Unless you have proof that they did that, I see no reason to believe that happened.

Yeah, the lead writer just told you that the Overmind did not see an actual vision of the future, just that he pieced together a scenario from Amon's motivations. This theory makes sense, whereas yours creates a plothole.

But he got more accurate information along the way, and constructed the vision sometime after he consumed the Xel'naga.

Again, that quote is specifically talking bout the information inside the Overmind when he was being created. Not during the events of Starcraft.

It's still a guess.

If Kerrigan died?

Exactly.

Seeing a vision of the future immediately changes the future given that they now know what is coming, but that doesn't mean Amon's plan is any different with the hybrids.

Let me see if I understand this. You believe that the Overmind knew about Kerrigan several millenia before he ever assimilated her. You also believe that he got this knowledge from Amon during his formative stages. So why exactly did Amon not take more measures to ensure that Kerrigan would not have been assimilated?

Or do you believe that the vision was constructed after the Overmind found Kerrigan? In which case, on what basis do you claim that this is a precognitive vision of the future given that it changes anytime the Overmind encounters new information? Did you not say that "I believe what I'm being shown is the 100% truth."?

He did not say that.

What he says is:

"The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

These images were confusing to a being just being born into the world.

How do you get that out of what he says? Nowhere does it say that the images were confusing because the Overmind was a baby, and then they made sense later on. That's pure fanon/speculation. The images themselves were confusing & scattered. Period. It says it right there.

the exact form of a solar system that is confirmed to be an actual place by Raynor and so on

You're aware of course that Blizzard frequently reuses assets, and that Raynor has not necessarily seen Ulnar? Or that Bel'shir and Aiur have the same exact texture map for their continents?

Again, the Protoss heroes' names are just Tassadar and Zeratul adding their own knowledge to the mix.

[Turalyon]

Are you realy going with "anything could be right, absolutely anything!" based on the Amon retcon?

Nope. The EU has something to do with that as well. It's just a trend I've been noticing.

It perfectly explains why the Zerg and the Protoss are not compatible, when they should be, and I like that.

Who says the Zerg and Protoss are not compatible? Sure, the Protoss can't be infested, but it never says they can't be assimilated. The question of Zerg/Protoss compatibility didn't even exist and wasn't really a problem that needed to be addressed until it was decided later and ad hoc that they weren't (if they really even are - who knows, it can be anything still).

Sure, we don't see any attempts from the Overmind to assimilate Protoss in Sc1 but that doesn't mean it couldn't do it.

And I'd think the best approach is to just go with what is currently in the lore. Don't even concern yourself with future retcons just yet.

What's the point? Nothing is concrete and anything that you think is, can be retconned at any time at the slightest of whims. It's just makes everything a hodge podge of stuff happening thus making it all too easy to feel apathy for what is happening or what will/will not happen.

We ourselves see the vision, and see several things that the Overmind has no knowledge of, and is correct in what they are outside of the vision.

...All from a certain point of view...

The vision isn't elaborate or complicated at all. I wouldn't say its overwrought.

The vision is only part of the issue. The entire thing with the Overmind is overwrought and unnecessarily so because it wants to cover up the obvious reason why it was invented in the first place: to prop up Amon.

Given what Preservers do and the knowledge swap in the original Starcraft, I think there is enough proof to imply that.

You still haven't proven anything. Supposition is not proof.

And unless there is something that outright says they are fake or heavily implies, when we see what goes on in the vision ourselves that matches with the lore, I have no reason to make the assumption they were faked.

Given that your proof is merely supposition based on implications of other things, it's not much better than the opposing view that the vision is fake since one can make supposition based on implications of other things too.

True, but we see that the location of the final battle is a physical place, we know the characters involved are physicaly the same elsewhere, we know the Hybrids look the same as when Raynor and Sarah comes across them by themselves, we know that the Zerg strains are the same even though the information was gained centuries or millennia before they were brought into the swarm, we see the Protoss use weapons that were only invented after the Overmind's death, and so on.

So what, vivid dreams/false memories can have such "realistic" properties too. Also, anything in that vision has yet to come to pass, if it even will at all (even more, the audience knows that it won't). Because it has no solid grounding in time or space, nor can it be measurable in any quantifiable way, you cannot say one way or another how "real" it can be.

I'm not seeing anything that indicates the vision is untrustworthy other then a "maybe."

The mere possibility that it's actual outcome as shown can be averted already marks it as "untrustworthy".

One can not be the other or "excuse" the other.

Exactly. You are learning, young padawan.

...Based on?

If I have to explain something that's been gone over many times by many others, you will have no hope of ever understanding.

He wasn't a plot device.

Not until BW at any rate.

I like the EU though, and I'd think you'd get some enjoyment out of it if you gave the good stuff a chance.

Not likely. Much of the stuff I have trouble with in Sc2 have their beginnings from the EU like the Xel'Naga stuff and the revisions of Sc1 campaigns. Seriously, Metzen says they should be the authority on the events of Sc1 more than the game? Nice backhanded compliment. Might as well say that Sc1 was a pointless exercise in terms of lore.

If the books were so definitive, why didn't they come out first? Oh, that's right because no-one would've cared for them or the lore (as much as they do now) if they did.

[Shadow Archon]

Ergo he constructs a scenario from confusing pieces.

...But by the very construction, it's no longer confusing....

Do you have any proof?

You posted it.

We see the vision when the Overmind is lucid, already when he knows who the protoss and zerg are.

Then we are told it was created from confusing images when the Overmind was being formed.

In no way does what Kindregan say invalidate the visions authenticity.

Subconscious doesn't mean you're completely ignorant of it, just that it's not in focal awareness. I'm not a psychologist, but your statement doesn't seem to make much sense.

Actually, you are completely unaware of the subconscious going by my Psychology class I'm taking right now.

Let me be more accurate. I am referring to the unconscious mind as Freud talks about.

Yeah, the lead writer just told you that the Overmind did not see an actual vision of the future, just that he pieced together a scenario from Amon's motivations. This theory makes sense, whereas yours creates a plothole.

The Writer did not just say that. He said the vision was constructed from confused imagery inserted into the Overmind when Amon molded him.

This doesn't in anyway mean the vision is inaccurate or invalidated.

The Preservers see the same exact stellar phenomenon anyways from the Ulaan vision, so I don't see what we are arguing about exactly.

It's still a guess.

No. It's an answer constructed from multiple avenues of evidence.

Let me see if I understand this. You believe that the Overmind knew about Kerrigan several millenia before he ever assimilated her. You also believe that he got this knowledge from Amon during his formative stages.

Sort of. I presumably understand that the bulk of Amon's plans, the Hybrids, was what the Overmind learned from his connection.

However, the specifics about the Protoss, the Zerg and Kerrigan seemed to have been gained strictly from the construction of the vision later on.

Amon is not the sole source of information regarding what happens in the future.

So why exactly did Amon not take more measures to ensure that Kerrigan would not have been assimilated?

That assumes Amon saw the future or was the direct source of the vision. The only thing we know is that the Overmind knew Amon's plans while also knowing what the future would hold when he put all the information together later on.

It's complicated to say exactly what is going on because Precog is all about getting information from nowhere.

Amon was resurrected by Kerrigan's energies, so he may have saw it, or he may have not. I'm not certain. It could be a part of his plan, and he just saw her death before he died, when afterwards, Raynor seeing the vision changed the future.

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

Or do you believe that the vision was constructed after the Overmind found Kerrigan? In which case, on what basis do you claim that this is a precognitive vision of the future given that it changes anytime the Overmind encounters new information? Did you not say that "I believe what I'm being shown is the 100% truth."?

Yes.

It depends upon the degrees of precog, like the Kwisatz Haderach in Dune can not only just see one future, but all possible future branches in every decision. The event we see is definitely a possible outcome, meaning what we see can happen in the universe, and is not an outlandish depiction of it.

How do you get that out of what he says? Nowhere does it say that the images were confusing because the Overmind was a baby, and then they made sense later on. That's pure fanon/speculation. The images themselves were confusing & scattered. Period. It says it right there.

No, it says it plainly.

""The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. "

Confusing imagery is only mentioned in the connotation that this information was gained during the Overmind's creation.

So, no, his created vision isn't "confusing imagery" as that terminology doesn't refer to the finished product.

You're aware of course that Blizzard frequently reuses assets, and that Raynor has not necessarily seen Ulnar?

That has no bearing on the fact we see the same location twice.

It's part of the canon.

Regardless if they reuse assets, that means the location was visited twice.

Or that Bel'shir and Aiur have the same exact texture map for their continents?

We see Bel'shir from orbit though, and it looks nothing like AIur.



I see no oceans like on Aiur or similar land masses, just land everywhere, so whatever you are talking about, I have no idea.

If it's in the game data only, I don't see that as particularly canon unless we see it elsewhere.

Again, the Protoss heroes' names are just Tassadar and Zeratul adding their own knowledge to the mix.

According to what?

I don't remember Zeratul or Tassadar adding anything to the vision. And Tassadar doesn't even know about the head of the DT sect, Mohander, or who some of the other Protoss are.

Nope. The EU has something to do with that as well. It's just a trend I've been noticing.

You really like being facetious about it then?

Who says the Zerg and Protoss are not compatible?

Kerrigan in HotS, Metzen, Kindregan...

Sure, the Protoss can't be infested, but it never says they can't be assimilated.

...

Infestion leads to assimilation.

IF they can't do one, they can't do the other.

Kerrigan specifically states the Zerg can't use Protoss genetic material, and states the Primals can't gain anything from them either.

The question of Zerg/Protoss compatibility didn't even exist and wasn't really a problem that needed to be addressed until it was decided later and ad hoc that they weren't (if they really even are - who knows, it can be anything still).

???

The compatibility was never even confirmed, so how was it ad hocced in?

The first time we ever see the two mixed in Starcraft 1 is the Hybrid, and we saw plenty of failed results.

Sure, we don't see any attempts from the Overmind to assimilate Protoss in Sc1 but that doesn't mean it couldn't do it.

That's an Argument from Ignorance.

You either prove something is true, or don't.

Sure, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but a lack of evidence entirely means that any idea about the Overmind being able to do that is pure conjecture.

And we directly now know that such a thing is false now, because the Zerg can not use any genetic material from the Protoss at all.

What's the point? Nothing is concrete and anything that you think is, can be retconned at any time at the slightest of whims. It's just makes everything a hodge podge of stuff happening thus making it all too easy to feel apathy for what is happening or what will/will not happen.

If you really are apathetic about the lore, why are we even discussing it? This is literally a big waste of time for the both of us.

If you can't take it seriously, at least for discussion's sake, there's little reason to carry this on because it literally will end nowhere if only one party even cares about what is being discussed.

...All from a certain point of view...

Yes?

And?

PoVs of how you interpret the evidence aren't wrong.

The vision is only part of the issue. The entire thing with the Overmind is overwrought and unnecessarily so because it wants to cover up the obvious reason why it was invented in the first place: to prop up Amon.

Amon was already propped up by having Duran be working for some mysterious power in BW. The vision's purpose was to give Raynor and Zeratul a reason to keep Kerrigan alive mainly. Sure, it introduces a big bad, but that big bad was already there, just completely unknown.

It isn't overwrought or unnecessary any more so then any other story element in Starcraft in my opinion.

You still haven't proven anything. Supposition is not proof.

Do you want me to post how accurate Zamara is with the DTS? Because that's about it.

Some reason, you think the default assumption is that the vision must be faulty someway. Why?

My default assumption is that the vision is correct.

So....how do we resolve this?

Given that your proof is merely supposition based on implications of other things, it's not much better than the opposing view that the vision is fake since one can make supposition based on implications of other things too.

Supposition based on what?

What else besides your conjecture supports the idea the vision is fake.

Again, I could post how accurate Preservers are, but I doubt that exactly would do much given one's a record of the past and one's a vision yet to come.

There is the Terran Psionic in Frontline that foretells the Protoss purification of Chau Sara, Mar Sara, and Antiga Prime, but I doubt that would do much for you.

So what, vivid dreams/false memories can have such "realistic" properties too.

So, you're being pedantic.

Gotcha.

Unless you have any proof that says the vision isn't accurate, even thought it involves accurate details, or at least supposition that lies in-universe, I don't see what you're on about.

Also, anything in that vision has yet to come to pass, if it even will at all (even more, the audience knows that it won't).

So?

Because it has no solid grounding in time or space, nor can it be measurable in any quantifiable way, you cannot say one way or another how "real" it can be.

It can be measured quantifiable, because we bloody well see it., and it has solid grounding in time and space. It's a possible future, one that is confirmed by the Xel'naga, the Overmind, the Preservers, Tassadar, and Zeratul.

I trust their judgement on what is accurate in their universe over your doubt any day.

The mere possibility that it's actual outcome as shown can be averted already marks it as "untrustworthy".

....No.

It still is the same universe. It still has the same entities and rules. What happens there doesn't magically become impossible now. The laws of physics don't change.

Exactly. You are learning, young padawan.

So, you're basically calling me a liar then?

Or do you even know what you're saying?

Because I really don't understand what you mean by "Truth from a certain point of view is just an excuse for boldfaced lies. "

If I have to explain something that's been gone over many times by many others, you will have no hope of ever understanding.

If you don't care to go over it, then obviously it has no value and is plain Bologna as I suspected.

I can understand concepts just fine. Don't insult my intelligence by excusing your own laziness. If you bring up a point and fail to explain it, that's not my problem.

Not until BW at any rate.

...The second Overmind wasn't the first, so, what's your point?

That was an entire different entity, that didn't even apparently devleop past it's fledgling stage before being utilized by the UED or killed by Zeratul.

Not likely. Much of the stuff I have trouble with in Sc2 have their beginnings from the EU like the Xel'Naga stuff and the revisions of Sc1 campaigns. Seriously, Metzen says they should be the authority on the events of Sc1 more than the game? Nice backhanded compliment. Might as well say that Sc1 was a pointless exercise in terms of lore.

If the books were so definitive, why didn't they come out first? Oh, that's right because no-one would've cared for them or the lore (as much as they do now) if they did.

Most of the EU doesn't even go over events in Starcraft 1 though and only four books even talk about the whole Xel'naga issue. Speed of Darkness, I'Mengsk, and Heaven's Devils specifically don't do anything you're talking about.

The only books that overwrite the original games are just Liberty's Crusade and Queen of Blades, and Liberty's Crusade is good, and it doesn't butcher what happens at all. We know the 1st game wasn't specific really, considering the gameplay is most of what we see in the first two campaigns.

Besides, you're misinterpreting him.

He was specifically talking about scenes that are never even shown in the game. Queen of Blades, as awful as it is, gives great insight into how Tassadar and Zeratul met, how Tassadar learned Void based psionics from Zeratul, Raynor's pov on Char while you were the Cerebrate in-game.

Besides of really downplaying the size of the military brought to Char and how much a death world Char is elsewhere, it does have some good points at least from a world building perspective.

[Gradius]

That assumes Amon saw the future or was the direct source of the vision. The only thing we know is that the Overmind knew Amon's plans while also knowing what the future would hold when he put all the information together later on.

Please provide some evidence for the bolded part or clarify what exactly you mean by that, because Kindregan says pretty clearly what the source of the vision is: "That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces".

It's complicated to say exactly what is going on because Precog is all about getting information from nowhere.

Amon was resurrected by Kerrigan's energies, so he may have saw it, or he may have not. I'm not certain. It could be a part of his plan, and he just saw her death before he died, when afterwards, Raynor seeing the vision changed the future.

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

It's not complicated at all. Amon wouldn't have allowed her to be infested period if he knew about her millenia in advance and saw her in a "possible" future. Apart from that, saying "it depends on the degree of pre-cog" just seems like cherrypicking and a cop-out to me, which is unnecessary when Kindregan gave us the simplest explanation, that it was merely a narrative that the Overmind constructed from imperfect knowledge.

Yes.

It depends upon the degrees of precog, like the Kwisatz Haderach in Dune can not only just see one future, but all possible future branches in every decision. The event we see is definitely a possible outcome, meaning what we see can happen in the universe, and is not an outlandish depiction of it.

Please provide evidence that the Overmind has true precognition. Kindregan just told us that the vision was a scenario constructed from confusing images that he got from Amon. That's it. Nowhere is precognition mentioned, either in the Q&A or in Wings of Liberty.

No, it says it plainly.

""The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. "

Confusing imagery is only mentioned in the connotation that this information was gained during the Overmind's creation.

So, no, his created vision isn't "confusing imagery" as that terminology doesn't refer to the finished product.

Why did you bold the first sentence when the antecedent to "scattered, confused images" is clearly "the Dark Voice's plans for the future"? I don't know why you're trying to circumvent what Kindregan says with your own fanon. Yes, it was gained during his creation, but that has nothing to do with your assertion that the Overmind didn't know what he was seeing. Furthermore, Kindregan goes on to tell us that the vision is based only on the knowledge that he just received during this formative stage:

"That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

If it's in the game data only, I don't see that as particularly canon unless we see it elsewhere.

It's the in-game texture which is under the cloud layer.

So this texture you don't see as canon, but the Ulnar skybox texture is canon? Why? How do you go about deciding these things? :P

That has no bearing on the fact we see the same location twice.


It's part of the canon.


Regardless if they reuse assets, that means the location was visited twice.

How far are you willing to take this? :P

There's a New Gettysberg doodad in almost every space platform mission in SC1. Is every space platform battle fought on New Gettysburg? There's a marine portrait that is reused all the time. Is it always the same guy? Even if he dies?

[Shadow Archon]

Please provide some evidence for the bolded part or clarify what exactly you mean by that, because Kindregan says pretty clearly what the source of the vision is: "That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces".

The Overmind's vision is of the future. Amon's plans for the future are not a vision of what exactly will happen in the future.

Question: Does the gift of prophecy and foresight that played such a big role in WoL have any grounding in a science-fictiony explanation, or is it just mysterious and paranormal?

Answer: I totally understand. "Prophecy" is a loaded word that seems like something from a fantasy story, with no place in science fiction.

However, I'd like to invoke Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Some entity in the distant past saw how events were very likely to play out—not destined to—and transmitted that information to lesser beings, who wrote it down.

To put it another way, let's say I can communicate with a mayfly that has a 24-hour lifespan, and I tell that mayfly, “That giant ball of light will go down soon, in an event we call 'evening.' It will be gone for almost half your life, but it will come back, in an event we call 'morning.'" To that mayfly, I seem to be throwing out wild prophecies about the future.

I've noticed that a lot of people think the prophecy says Kerrigan will save the universe. It doesn't. It says a few things. Among them is the fact that the Fallen One (hereafter referred to as the Dark Voice) will destroy everything. At a later point, we see a vision that the Overmind had, which shows us the moment when the Dark Voice wins the day. In that vision, there is a very strong sense that if the zerg had been under the command of a leader who could resist the Dark Voice, they could have fought back. Is Kerrigan such a leader? Certainly! But she's not the chosen savior, or a messianic figure, or the "prophesied one"; she's not in the prophecy at all. Is that complicated? Yeah, it is. I have something to say about that in a later post!
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It could not flat out consider rebellion, for instance. If it tried, iron-clad controls would clamp down. There were compulsions it had to follow in certain situations. The Overmind, determined to do what it could for the Swarm, found the cracks, the barely permissible choices that it could make—the moves that would not activate the controls but which it hoped could eventually free the zerg from the Dark Voice's control. In turn, this would let the zerg evade the fate the Overmind had seen in its vision.

And to clarify something that I've seen widely misinterpreted, the Overmind did not create the Queen of Blades to save the galaxy, the Koprulu sector, or anything besides the zerg. The Overmind saw a vision in which the zerg were used to kill the protoss, and only the fact that the zerg were slaves bothered it. The end of that vision showed all the zerg being sucked dry by hybrid. It represented the destruction of the zerg, and that was what the Overmind wanted to prevent. It wished to move the Swarm out from the Dark Voice's control to save the zerg—and only the zerg. The Overmind would have been happy to see the zerg consume every other species in existence.

He does say that the vision is constructed from information he got from Amon, but he doesn't state that all he got is Amon's plans and constructed what happened strictly from that, which would basically just be fantasy on the Overmind's part.

Kindregan clearly states in other areas of the Q&A that the Overmind definitely saw the day the Dark Voice won.

It's not complicated at all. Amon wouldn't have allowed her to be infested period if he knew about her millenia in advance and saw her in a "possible" future. Apart from that, saying "it depends on the degree of pre-cog" just seems like cherrypicking and a cop-out to me, which is unnecessary when Kindregan gave us the simplest explanation, that it was merely a narrative that the Overmind constructed from imperfect knowledge.

I'm saying Amon didn't see the future. I'm saying the Ovemrind did based on Amon's plans.

And again, Kindregan points out that yes, what the vision shows is indeed what happened.

Please provide evidence that the Overmind has true precognition. Kindregan just told us that the vision was a scenario constructed from confusing images that he got from Amon. That's it. Nowhere is precognition mentioned, either in the Q&A or in Wings of Liberty.

Precognition and vision of the future are the same thing.

Zeratul
Now, friend Raynor, you must see the Overmind's vision of the future. The end of my people... and of all things. This is our fate, should Kerrigan die...

Why did you bold the first sentence when the antecedent to "scattered, confused images" is clearly "the Dark Voice's plans for the future"?

The "plans" for the future isn't how he saw the future, it's what allowed him to see the future. The vision was constructed by the Ovemrind, meaning, vision of the future and Amon's plan for the future, are not synonymous.

I don't know why you're trying to circumvent what Kindregan says with your own fanon.

I'm not. He clearly believes elsewhere in the Q&A that the vision is indeed correct, and you are using how the Ovemrind gained the vision is proof that it could be inaccurate.

Yes, it was gained during his creation, but that has nothing to do with your assertion that the Overmind didn't know what he was seeing. Furthermore, Kindregan goes on to tell us that the vision is based only on the knowledge that he just received during this formative stage:

"That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

Yes, but the vision and the plan aren't synonymous. One is him seeing the Dark Voice win, one is the Dark Voice's plan to win. They aren't the same.

It's the in-game texture which is under the cloud layer.

I can see just mostly what's under the clouds just fine in that image, and I see nothing like what you are suggesting.

So this texture you don't see as canon, but the Ulnar skybox texture is canon? Why? How do you go about deciding these things? :P

Ulnar skybox?

If you mean the exact same image in two different levels, yeah, I'm using that.

Not some texture that isn't even look like it is physically present on the Bel'shir loading screen planet.

How far are you willing to take this? :P

Whatever happens in the main plot really is about it. I'm not claiming the below.

There's a New Gettysberg doodad in almost every space platform mission in SC1. Is every space platform battle fought on New Gettysburg?

Obviously not. New Gettysberg isn't even a Space Platform.

There's a marine portrait that is reused all the time. Is it always the same guy? Even if he dies?

...Well cloning does exist.

- - - Updated - - -

Please provide some evidence for the bolded part or clarify what exactly you mean by that, because Kindregan says pretty clearly what the source of the vision is: "That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces".

The Overmind's vision is of the future. Amon's plans for the future are not a vision of what exactly will happen in the future.

Question: Does the gift of prophecy and foresight that played such a big role in WoL have any grounding in a science-fictiony explanation, or is it just mysterious and paranormal?

Answer: I totally understand. "Prophecy" is a loaded word that seems like something from a fantasy story, with no place in science fiction.

However, I'd like to invoke Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Some entity in the distant past saw how events were very likely to play out—not destined to—and transmitted that information to lesser beings, who wrote it down.

To put it another way, let's say I can communicate with a mayfly that has a 24-hour lifespan, and I tell that mayfly, “That giant ball of light will go down soon, in an event we call 'evening.' It will be gone for almost half your life, but it will come back, in an event we call 'morning.'" To that mayfly, I seem to be throwing out wild prophecies about the future.

I've noticed that a lot of people think the prophecy says Kerrigan will save the universe. It doesn't. It says a few things. Among them is the fact that the Fallen One (hereafter referred to as the Dark Voice) will destroy everything. At a later point, we see a vision that the Overmind had, which shows us the moment when the Dark Voice wins the day. In that vision, there is a very strong sense that if the zerg had been under the command of a leader who could resist the Dark Voice, they could have fought back. Is Kerrigan such a leader? Certainly! But she's not the chosen savior, or a messianic figure, or the "prophesied one"; she's not in the prophecy at all. Is that complicated? Yeah, it is. I have something to say about that in a later post!
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It could not flat out consider rebellion, for instance. If it tried, iron-clad controls would clamp down. There were compulsions it had to follow in certain situations. The Overmind, determined to do what it could for the Swarm, found the cracks, the barely permissible choices that it could make—the moves that would not activate the controls but which it hoped could eventually free the zerg from the Dark Voice's control. In turn, this would let the zerg evade the fate the Overmind had seen in its vision.

And to clarify something that I've seen widely misinterpreted, the Overmind did not create the Queen of Blades to save the galaxy, the Koprulu sector, or anything besides the zerg. The Overmind saw a vision in which the zerg were used to kill the protoss, and only the fact that the zerg were slaves bothered it. The end of that vision showed all the zerg being sucked dry by hybrid. It represented the destruction of the zerg, and that was what the Overmind wanted to prevent. It wished to move the Swarm out from the Dark Voice's control to save the zerg—and only the zerg. The Overmind would have been happy to see the zerg consume every other species in existence.

He does say that the vision is constructed from information he got from Amon, but he doesn't state that all he got is Amon's plans and constructed what happened strictly from that, which would basically just be fantasy on the Overmind's part.

Kindregan clearly states in other areas of the Q&A that the Overmind definitely saw the day the Dark Voice won.

It's not complicated at all. Amon wouldn't have allowed her to be infested period if he knew about her millenia in advance and saw her in a "possible" future. Apart from that, saying "it depends on the degree of pre-cog" just seems like cherrypicking and a cop-out to me, which is unnecessary when Kindregan gave us the simplest explanation, that it was merely a narrative that the Overmind constructed from imperfect knowledge.

I'm saying Amon didn't see the future. I'm saying the Ovemrind did based on Amon's plans.

And again, Kindregan points out that yes, what the vision shows is indeed what happened.

Please provide evidence that the Overmind has true precognition. Kindregan just told us that the vision was a scenario constructed from confusing images that he got from Amon. That's it. Nowhere is precognition mentioned, either in the Q&A or in Wings of Liberty.

Precognition and vision of the future are the same thing.

Zeratul
Now, friend Raynor, you must see the Overmind's vision of the future. The end of my people... and of all things. This is our fate, should Kerrigan die...

Why did you bold the first sentence when the antecedent to "scattered, confused images" is clearly "the Dark Voice's plans for the future"?

The "plans" for the future isn't how he saw the future, it's what allowed him to see the future. The vision was constructed by the Ovemrind, meaning, vision of the future and Amon's plan for the future, are not synonymous.

I don't know why you're trying to circumvent what Kindregan says with your own fanon.

I'm not. He clearly believes elsewhere in the Q&A that the vision is indeed correct, and you are using how the Ovemrind gained the vision is proof that it could be inaccurate.

Yes, it was gained during his creation, but that has nothing to do with your assertion that the Overmind didn't know what he was seeing. Furthermore, Kindregan goes on to tell us that the vision is based only on the knowledge that he just received during this formative stage:

"That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

Yes, but the vision and the plan aren't synonymous. One is him seeing the Dark Voice win, one is the Dark Voice's plan to win. They aren't the same.

It's the in-game texture which is under the cloud layer.

I can see just mostly what's under the clouds just fine in that image, and I see nothing like what you are suggesting.

So this texture you don't see as canon, but the Ulnar skybox texture is canon? Why? How do you go about deciding these things? :P

Ulnar skybox?

If you mean the exact same image in two different levels, yeah, I'm using that.

Not some texture that isn't even look like it is physically present on the Bel'shir loading screen planet.

How far are you willing to take this? :P

Whatever happens in the main plot really is about it. I'm not claiming the below.

There's a New Gettysberg doodad in almost every space platform mission in SC1. Is every space platform battle fought on New Gettysburg?

Obviously not. New Gettysberg isn't even a Space Platform.

There's a marine portrait that is reused all the time. Is it always the same guy? Even if he dies?

...Well cloning does exist.

[Turalyon]

You really like being facetious about it then?

What? You would rather me rant and rage like all the other haters?

Besides, I wouldn't be so facetious about everything in Starcraft now if I didn't get the feeling that Blizzard was being likewise with all this hogwash in Sc2 and then asking us to treat it seriously. Monkey see, monkey do I guess.

Kerrigan in HotS, Metzen, Kindregan...

...until they decide otherwise. In the meantime, confusion reigns.

Infestion leads to assimilation.

IF they can't do one, they can't do the other.

There was another thread on this somewhere so I won't get into too much detail suffice to say that you're making an assumption because the exact process of either hasn't really been fully explained. We only get hints about assimilation in the manual where the original Zerg not only hijacked their hosts but influenced their genetics over generations until they became recognised as "Zerg". This implies that assimilation takes a long time. It is also unknown whether infestation includes an original Zerg slug occupying every infested being they have. Besides, the Overmind knows it can assimilate Protoss - so why bother proclaiming that it can (heck, why did it even go there in the first place) when it really can't? Oh, that's right, it's the writer's *nudge wink* to the Overmind revelation of being a slave but not really being a slave. Makes perfect sense.

The compatibility was never even confirmed, so how was it ad hocced in?

Ah, so you're treating everything that was originally conceived for the Overmind as being bunk then? The Overmind would never have concocted a phony story just for fooling the audience into thinking it could assimilate the Protoss when it really couldn't. I guess we can add "breaking the fourth wall and manipulating audience expectation retroactively" along with precognition as an ability we never knew the Overmind had.

That's an Argument from Ignorance.

Funny how you can spot this here when you have used literally the same argument many times elsewhere to justify your theories about how certain things work in Starcraft.

Sure, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but a lack of evidence entirely means that any idea about the Overmind being able to do that is pure conjecture.

So then, you agree that the issue of compatibility wasn't really a major issue that needed addressing because it was all just conjecture then and only became a "question" (that nobody asked) that got answered when the "answer" came later, right?

If you really are apathetic about the lore, why are we even discussing it? This is literally a big waste of time for the both of us.

I was trying to make the point that Sc is at the point now that "any answer will do whenever it suits", hence the "why bother?" statement you responded to.

I don't know about you, but I'm discussing this for the sole reason of wasting time and cos it's fun. I could just as easily be doing something else more constructive like building an orphanage, ponder the meaning of life or something else. I'm not kidding myself that what I'm doing here is anything more than "wasting time".

Amon was already propped up by having Duran be working for some mysterious power in BW. The vision's purpose was to give Raynor and Zeratul a reason to keep Kerrigan alive mainly. Sure, it introduces a big bad, but that big bad was already there, just completely unknown.

It isn't overwrought or unnecessary any more so then any other story element in Starcraft in my opinion.

I should have said contrived (it is a synonym of overwrought afterall). The fact that it is telegraphed so obviously - as you have mentioned above - as a plot device is immersion breaking. Knowing when, how and where plot devices appear in story is nothing special - it's hiding them and making them not so obvious that is the trick. A trick that WoL has failed at badly.

Do you want me to post how accurate Zamara is with the DTS? Because that's about it.

Some reason, you think the default assumption is that the vision must be faulty someway. Why?

My default assumption is that the vision is correct.

So....how do we resolve this?

First of all, I understand why you assume it can be correct. You've been as clear as you possibly can in that regard. Second, I've already explained why the vision can be interpreted as being wrong because some people actually do feel this way. Third, I'm not looking to resolve this one way or another just trying to show you how people are justified in thinking how the vision can be fake as much as you can justify how it isn't.

What else besides your conjecture supports the idea the vision is fake.

All we have is nothing but conjecture because the event depicted is not actually concrete, unless you believe in fate. That the vision is not going to happen because it is changeable by the in-universe characters means it's already false and worth not much more than a warning (not to mention being an untenable temporal paradox unless you start making up rules about how time travel actually works in the Sc universe). At the least, the audience knows this vision will never actually come to pass because that would mean Blizz would be ending their cash-cow franchise. I can understand how this may not be acceptable to you, but well, some people take stock in how something is written and why things are included the way there are in a story and not just content themselves with the in-universe minutia and explanations.

There is the Terran Psionic in Frontline that foretells the Protoss purification of Chau Sara, Mar Sara, and Antiga Prime, but I doubt that would do much for you.

For good reason. Frontline was written after the fact to have a character "foretell" that concrete happenstance. The vision is not a concrete happenstance and never will be.

I don't see what you're on about.

I think you do see where I'm coming from, you just don't want to. That does not invalidate it as viable viewpoint that a lot of people hold. I'm not asking you to adopt the viewpoint, just to show you that it exists and why.

It can be measured quantifiable, because we bloody well see it., and it has solid grounding in time and space. It's a possible future

Seeing is not always believing. Besides, you just undermined yourself by saying "possible" which more or less defines potential and involves a measure of uncertain - something that is not yet concrete or potentially ever will be.

....No.

...Yes. Oh, what fun we're having.

So, you're basically calling me a liar then?

Or do you even know what you're saying?

Because I really don't understand what you mean by "Truth from a certain point of view is just an excuse for boldfaced lies. "

No to the first and yes to the second. As to explaining the comment, I meant that if we had to use our own judgement to declare what is true for others (and perhaps yourself) then it's not different than just lying outright. See Obi-Wan for a classic example.

If you don't care to go over it, then obviously it has no value and is plain Bologna as I suspected.

I can understand concepts just fine. Don't insult my intelligence by excusing your own laziness. If you bring up a point and fail to explain it, that's not my problem.

Yeah, I'm lazy, so sue me. I would go over but I didn't see the point because a) you'd dismiss/evade it on a whim anyway as if I was trying to change your mind or something and that b) it's been stated several times in many other threads and forums other than this one such that the idea of it should have permeated to anyone who is at the slightest familiar with the Overmind retcon by now. Sorry if it sounded like I insulted you - it never was nor will be my intention.

...The second Overmind wasn't the first, so, what's your point?

My point was that the Overmind didn't become anything more but a plot device until BW. Instead of something that you could relate to or continue experiencing as a character, the Overmind became and still is a thing that just ticks the plot along. Much like how Mengsk was rendered into generic villain mode to move the plot along because Blizz had felt his character had nothing more to offer or rather that it was to do with a lack of imagination on their part.

**
By the way, you don't need to respond to everything, Shadow. You know, it's tough to reply to you huge posts with me being lazy and all.