Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

[TheEconomist]

Oh cool, Blizz is putting convenient "outs" for when they fuck up and do something inconsistent. Not the progress I'd like, but still progress.

Next, they'll be saying Amon had no choice and the Voice made him do it, and then they'll conveniently refer to small print like this to justify it.

[Visions of Khas]

Next, they'll be saying Amon had no choice and the Voice made him do it, and then they'll conveniently refer to small print like this to justify it.

I'm basically expecting this to be the case.

[Turalyon]

It's either barely disguised ass-pulls being given as answers that don't answer anything/confuse things more or being given no answers at all so that most will dismiss what they got was half-assed lore. Lovely.

[Shadow Archon]

You don't know that.

Yes, I very well do.

I believe what I'm being shown is the 100% truth.

If you don't, that's your problem, but it's not something that really can be argued over.

It's just explained as being a "vision" which anyone and everyone can have at any time.

Are you really trying to claim that a precognitive vision is the same as a delusion, daydreaming, or the sights of schizophrenia?

Not only that, it's a vision of vision of a vision of a vision (I probably missed or added one too many "visions") which dilutes its impact like a game of "whispers".

...This isn't like a game of whispers. The medium it's being transferred through is like a computer. It's more like from one computer to the next via flash drive. The chance for data corruption is very much less then a game of whispers.

Given the connection to the Overmind is the likely place (implication alone is given for it, nothing else) that Zeratul learned the place of Zerus, and he was capable of leading Kerrigan there, I'd say that the Overmind's vision is correct.

The lore is not 100% accurate either since it can change veritably at any time and a whim whether it be now or later.

The lore is 100% accurate, because people can pick and choose which lore they like at any time. Given that is the only avenue we have into the universe, the very fact that is the case means it is accurate.

Liberty's Crusade is just as true as the first Terran campaign.

Queen of Blades is just as true as the first Zerg campaign.

The two have wildly separate and contradicting accounts of events, yet both are valid forms of canon that somehow exist in the same universe.

Either way, each account is still "right" because of its canon status. Inconsistencies be damned.

I guess that's something worth waiting for, amirites?

Yes, it is.

WoL reveals the Overmind to be an unreliable narrator in Sc1. The logic follows on from that.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Wings of Liberty doesn't contradict the Overmind's narration in SC1.

Also, "Tassadar" (Is it the real ghost of Tassadar? Can Protoss become ghosts? Is it even Tassadar at all?) could've interpreted it wrong/lied. *Shrugs*

Then that is your interpretation.

Mine is that yes, he was right.

If you go by the Templar Archives description from SC1, yes, the Protoss can speak with their dead apparently through the Khala.

Explaining it is only half the issue. You have to feel it as being a substantial and natural extension of that character not just some half-baked tacked on motivation. The best way to do that is to give some sort of POV. Heck, it was the reason why we were supposed to get the feels from having to follow Raynor in WoL and Kerrigan in HotS via their POVs because at least you have a foundation for some understanding of the motivations (albeit a bit hackneyed) to take place. With Amon, we have and most likely, not get even that.

We never got a POV of villains like Sauron, and Tolkien made it work wonderfully.

Of course, Blizzard's writers are not up to snuff to tackle such a position.

Well, I'm guessing an Amon mini-campaign is out of the question.

God no! As little as there is of Amon already, I'm of the opinion that even that is too much of him as it is! His entire presence just reeks of contrived plot device. Besides, I don't think fans would appreciate having his plotline dragged out even more unnecessarily longer or have lack of resolution given the interminable wait already for the current sage to complete and then wait yet another 12 years when Sc3 comes out. I hope Sc2 puts an end to him and just forgets that he even existed.

Well, I think differently.

The idea of him could be expanded in a much more interesting way, and he hasn't even appeared in the lore yet, as in an actual current character.

His presence doesn't reek of a plot device to me anymore than the UED or the second Overmind. Bringing back in the Xel'naga, and the Hybrids which were built up in Starcraft 1, seems like a fine place for a story in my personal opinion.

I also think that the idea the story being extended to SC3 to be silly. If Starcraft had Brood War, I don't see a problem with SC2 getting another expansion pack beyond Legacy of the Void.

They're were content to "shoo away" the impact of the original Overmind and the UED so far, so there's precedent for that.

Well, the UED really had no long lasting impact, and the Overmind's impact is pretty easily there given that the Queen of Blades was created by him, and the fact his existence has had a substantial impact on the Zerg through the hive mind.

What do you mean his impact was "shooed away?"

I agree with this. It should be relegated to EU books (where all this Xel'Naga stuff started happening) so that I can have the opportunity to miss them like I did the first time with all the other books and "forget" that they existed.

You really don't care for the EU, do you?

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8226555

Creating a scenario from scattered & confused images is no better than taking a wild guess, especially that far in the past.

Well, it isn't clear or concrete, and it is a bunch of confused imagery from the fact that the Overmind was being created when he learned this information. He had no idea who the Protoss were, what Hybirds were, maybe even what the Zerg were, or what was going on just like any person doesn't remember their time in the Womb or even being born. Sure, it's not the same exactly, but that information was absorbed into him with no context, which indeed wouldn't mean much.

Only later, given the narrative by the Overmind in SC2, did he put the pieces together and somehow rebelled against his implanted drive sub-consciously. When he learned more information, especially from absorbing the other Xel'naga aboard the Worldship, did he consciously learn of the Protoss. This vision was never something he consciously knew from what I gathered as well.

Given what we see in it, and how accurate it is in line with what we know about the setting (The Hybrid's Consume DNA, proper Protoss Heroes by name, a location we see in the setting as Raynor himself, how the Hybrids appear, etc.) I see no reason to assume that the cinematic portion is untrustworthy as a source, especially given how accurate it is with what we see. So, whatever happened to the solar system isn't likely just some strange addition by the Overmind that never happened.

So, no, it is much more reliable then a "wild guess."

If you are talking about what we see in gameplay, I agree. That's never 100% reliable given how wacky they are with the scale and how they portrayal events.

It isn't even the true vision. Raynor saw "more Protoss then we ever knew existed" at that battle. Given that he was on Aiur itself a few times and was involved during the Protoss civil war, the battle against the Overmind, the evacuation of Aiur, and worked with Fenix's forces during the Brood War, and so on, that's pretty indicative we didn't fully get the gist of the scale involved. This happens multiple times in Starcraft though anyways. New Gettysburg as a space platform. The Haven Purifier being in orbit in the dialogue, but in-game being seemingly very close to the planet. Hybrids appearing as just a Protoss in a Stasis cell in Dark Origins. And so on.

[Gradius]

Well, it isn't clear or concrete, and it is a bunch of confused imagery from the fact that the Overmind was being created when he learned this information. He had no idea who the Protoss were, what Hybirds were, maybe even what the Zerg were, or what was going on just like any person doesn't remember their time in the Womb or even being born. Sure, it's not the same exactly, but that information was absorbed into him with no context, which indeed wouldn't mean much.

Where you getting this from? He talks in his own voice and clearly mentions protoss. He is obviously lucid.

This vision was never something he consciously knew from what I gathered as well.

Based on what? He was "raging in the prison of his own mind". What was he raging about if he didn't know anything? Don't invent lore.

Given what we see in it, and how accurate it is in line with what we know about the setting (The Hybrid's Consume DNA, proper Protoss Heroes by name, a location we see in the setting as Raynor himself, how the Hybrids appear, etc.) I see no reason to assume that the cinematic portion is untrustworthy as a source, especially given how accurate it is with what we see. So, whatever happened to the solar system isn't likely just some strange addition by the Overmind that never happened.

That's easily explained by Zeratul and Tassadar adding their own information & knowledge to the Overmind's scenario.

So, no, it is much more reliable then a "wild guess."

The Q&A is pretty clear that it is. It's a scenario he pieced together from incomplete information. That's kind of the definition of a guess.

I believe what I'm being shown is the 100% truth.

So you believe that Amon will win and everyone will die?

If you don't, that's your problem, but it's not something that really can be argued over.

Yes, it definitely can, because the lead writer said so. You can't invent your own fanon to contradict his answer.

[TheFunnyOne]

The zealots have true precognition (or so we think), but this isn't that:


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8226555

Creating a scenario from scattered & confused images is no better than taking a wild guess, especially that far in the past.

And in the past from those scraps I could figure out the plot outright cause it was soo much predictable

[Turalyon]

Are you really trying to claim that a precognitive vision is the same as a delusion, daydreaming, or the sights of schizophrenia?

Not at all, but it could easily turn out to be any of these things. With Blizzard and their "true from a certain point of view" angle with their retroactive continuity, I would never discount the possibility of the vision as being false. Also, given that the Overmind has never shown any form of precognitive ability before there are no guarantees that it's vision is actually "precognitive". It's an assigned label you chose to graft onto it.

What the vision really is (of precognitive type or not), is just an overwrought plot device.

...This isn't like a game of whispers. The medium it's being transferred through is like a computer. It's more like from one computer to the next via flash drive. The chance for data corruption is very much less then a game of whispers.

There is no proof of this. All we know that they're visions or memories. All of which can be faked.

Given the connection to the Overmind is the likely place (implication alone is given for it, nothing else) that Zeratul learned the place of Zerus, and he was capable of leading Kerrigan there, I'd say that the Overmind's vision is correct.

Zeratul could've found a map/artifact that said "Zerus is here!" to explain how he knows where Zerus was (afterall, the game didn't say that this wasn't possible). Also, knowledge of a physical place is different from something that is intangible like a vision. Proof of one thing doesn't always mean proof of another thing.

The lore is 100% accurate, because people can pick and choose which lore they like at any time. Given that is the only avenue we have into the universe, the very fact that is the case means it is accurate.

Truth from a certain point of view is just an excuse for boldfaced lies.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

It's the thing about the possibility that the "Overmind is not really the Overmind".

We never got a POV of villains like Sauron, and Tolkien made it work wonderfully.

Sauron is nothing like Amon.

His presence doesn't reek of a plot device to me anymore than the UED or the second Overmind.

Which, incidentally, BW also cops the same amount of flak for.

What do you mean his impact was "shooed away?"

That it's character was rendered away into nothing more than a plot device.

You really don't care for the EU, do you?

Nope.

[Telenil]

I was the one who asked the question about how the Overmind got his vision for these Q&A ^.^

I never liked long "distance" precognition powers, except for those that only give general probabilities. The Overmind constructing a narrative then filled by Zeratul's own mental image is much more satisfying than a convenient, incredibly detailed vision of a future thousands of years away. Especially if that's a future you are going to prevent from happening anyway.

[Turalyon]

I never liked long "distance" precognition powers, except for those that only give general probabilities. The Overmind constructing a narrative then filled by Zeratul's own mental image is much more satisfying than a convenient, incredibly detailed vision of a future thousands of years away. Especially if that's a future you are going to prevent from happening anyway.

Is the distinction even meaningful/worthwhile when it still boils ultimately down to whether the prediction/prophecy either happens (for whatever reasons) or does not (for whatever reasons)?

[Visions of Khas]

Is the distinction even meaningful/worthwhile when it still boils ultimately down to whether the prediction/prophecy either happens (for whatever reasons) or does not (for whatever reasons)?

But... it's the Prophecy! Zeratul just wants you to stay a while and listen!