Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

[Gradius]

The Overmind constructed the narrative that made the vision though, meaning that it was a static vision. It's a closed system, not an open.

You. Are. Making. Stuff. Up.

Seriously, at this point all you have going for you is misinterpreting "We see a vision that the Overmind had, which shows us the moment when the Dark Voice wins the day." as "he can see the future!" whilst ignoring the fact that Brian just told you that's not how it works: "That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces".

"The Day Amon won" = /= Narrative.

Yes, it is a precognitive vision of the future.

Only by totally failing at reading comprehension could one interpret the Overmind's vision as that. It simply doesn't say that. x/

Why?

You've already ignored what I believe the evidence states for another interpretation. We are arguing personal interpretation now about how we view the evidence.

This is just a dick waving contest on who's opinion is more right now.

It's cute that you think you're even allowed to disagree with the lead writer's direct answer on the topic. Not everything is subjective or personal opinion. Sorry.

Making up your own fanon is not just "personal interpretation", it's rampant and baseless theorycrafting.

I don't see the plot holes in my explanation.

I assumed that the knowledge was coming from Amon like it says in the Q&A. I had no clue you were ignoring this entirely and postulating the existence of an unproven & baseless second event where the Overmind reads the future outright and ignores Brian's answer entirely. Basically, your position is nonsensical and it took me this long to decipher it.

Through trust me, there are still plot holes. The biggest "hole" is just where the heck you think this second divination event came from when Kindregan tells you that the Overmind constructed the vision through no such thing?

I do see making up shit in yours though.

Again, the irony of this statement from an explanation that demands parallel universes and baseless future precognition is uncanny.

I'm not making up anything, merely quoting what Kindregan told us. Because frankly, how the Overmind learned about protoss heroes is completely irrelevant. You don't think this easily-accessible info came from Zeratul? Fine, explain where it came from then. And don't say "he had a vision of the future", because Kindregan already told us where the vision came from. And it's not the future.

You realize what an outlandish explanation that is? Especially when there are more reasonable alternatives?

"Hey, how did you know the bus was going to stop here?"

"I got the info from the bus route diagram."
or
"I can see the future."

If Brian states that the Overmind "saw the day the Dark Voice won" then yes, he didn't see the narrative, he saw the future.

I'm guessing you aren't even reading my posts now.

I already said, "Of course the events are not going to happen like that anymore! Someone else (plural) already saw the vision and thus changed the future by that act!"

I said "The physical capabilities are accurate in this vision of the future, because of all the other elements that make it up. There's no reason the Overmind made Hybrids blow up a star system "because!"

The actually individual mechanics are accurate, not the actual history that created the events.

No I get it. I just don't care, because I don't see where you're getting the idea of "perfect physical mechanics" from. The Overmind is not omniscient. He didn't know about Aiur's location or that he would find Kerrigan on Tarsonis. Your "interpretation" flies in the face of known canon.

The fact it contains true information that again, Amon couldn't have planned for.

Given that you believe that the vision was constructed later, how do you know that the Overmind didn't know the names of protoss heroes, or how hybrids work, etc? By that point he had already seen lots of shit and even read Zeratul's mind. How the heck is "future pre-cog" the only thing you can possibly think of to explain this? =/

Tassadar doesn't know who Mohander is, what Void Rays are, and what Stalkers are.

It never states anywhere that Zeratul added anything to the vision either.

Zeratul, Amon and Tassadar know everything in that vision between the three of them. Don't buy that explanation, fine, I don't care, Brian is still clear that the Overmind constructed the narrative from bits and pieces of the knowledge he got from Amon, not some unknown divination event where he saw the "perfect physical truth".

Or hey, maybe the Overmind was visited by the reincarnation of Jesus in the form of a giant chicken who imparted this special knowledge unto him. Theorycrafting is so much fun. :P

"We see a vision that the Overmind had, which shows us the moment when the Dark Voice wins the day."

I know exactly what you mean.

Yes, the dark voice won the day in the vision. How the hell does that equate to "perfect future pre-cog". -_-

I saw the day that the Titanic sunk in the movie. Guess that means I have the special ability see events from the past.

*facepalm

[Visions of Khas]

Only by totally failing at reading comprehension could one interpret the Overmind's vision as that... Brian is still clear that the Overmind constructed the narrative from bits and pieces of the knowledge he got from Amon, not some unknown divination event where he saw the "perfect physical truth".

To be fair, it is presented as a Vision of the Future (tm) in the game. Should a game even have to rely upon Q&A sessions in order to clarify the storyline and plot? No. And hasn't Blizzard, on multiple occassions, shown a lack of respect for lore? Most certainly. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard enacted events in the StarCraft timeline that fly in the face of the answers from Brian's thread.

There is, in my opinion, still a degree of Unreliable Narrator going on here. Whether you want to chalk it up to Tassadar, the Overmind, Zeratul, Raynor or Blizzard's writers is up to you.


My position? The whole scenario is hand-waved. It simply happened. It is a prediction or foresight that may or may not take place.

[Turalyon]

To be fair, it is presented as a Vision of the Future (tm) in the game. Should a game even have to rely upon Q&A sessions in order to clarify the storyline and plot? No. And hasn't Blizzard, on multiple occassions, shown a lack of respect for lore? Most certainly. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard enacted events in the StarCraft timeline that fly in the face of the answers from Brian's thread.

There is, in my opinion, still a degree of Unreliable Narrator going on here. Whether you want to chalk it up to Tassadar, the Overmind, Zeratul, Raynor or Blizzard's writers is up to you.

My position? The whole scenario is hand-waved. It simply happened. It is a prediction or foresight that may or may not take place.

In short, it's a cliched plot device.

All it really draws attention to is the poor imagination and skill of the writer. A major plot point that relies on mystical mumbo jumbo is always a bad sign.

[Shadow Archon]

You. Are. Making. Stuff. Up.

Seriously, at this point all you have going for you is misinterpreting "We see a vision that the Overmind had, which shows us the moment when the Dark Voice wins the day." as "he can see the future!" whilst ignoring the fact that Brian just told you that's not how it works: "That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces".

A narrative doesn't tell us that it was not a vision of the future.

"Bits and pieces" are not clarified.

And misinterpreting? Any interpretation is a valid interpretation as long as it doesn't break the facts.

Only by totally failing at reading comprehension could one interpret the Overmind's vision as that. It simply doesn't say that. x/

Only by totally failing at reading comprehension could one not interpret the Overmind's vision as that. It simply does say that.

It's cute that you think you're even allowed to disagree with the lead writer's direct answer on the topic. Not everything is subjective or personal opinion. Sorry.

Making up your own fanon is not just "personal interpretation", it's rampant and baseless theorycrafting.

When the lead writer says it's a vision of the future and not just some extrapolation? Yeah.

I assumed that the knowledge was coming from Amon like it says in the Q&A. I had no clue you were ignoring this entirely and postulating the existence of an unproven & baseless second event where the Overmind reads the future outright and ignores Brian's answer entirely. Basically, your position is nonsensical and it took me this long to decipher it.

But we know from the game itself, and Brain himself in the other parts of the Q&A that actually seeing the future is involved.

Through trust me, there are still plot holes. The biggest "hole" is just where the heck you think this second divination event came from when Kindregan tells you that the Overmind constructed the vision through no such thing?

Kindregan doesn't tell me that.

He states:

"Answer: The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

It doesn't state that the Overmind clearly "did not" see the future, when Brian himself states to us that he did as does Zeratul.

It's not just an extrapolation.

Again, the irony of this statement from an explanation that demands parallel universes and baseless future precognition is uncanny.

Baseless? IT has a base you just won't see.

And I don't see why I have to prove parallel universes exist, more then I have to prove that protons or electrons exist in the setting.

It's a staple of sci-fi and is home to real world theories. So, why should I have to prove those exist? Should I have to prove that dark energy and dark matter exists in Starcraft as well?

I'm not making up anything, merely quoting what Kindregan told us.

Bullshit.

You said Zeratul edited the vision.

Nothing at all states he edited it.

[quote] Because frankly, how the Overmind learned about protoss heroes is completely irrelevant. You don't think this easily-accessible info came from Zeratul? Fine, explain where it came from then. And don't say "he had a vision of the future", because Kindregan already told us where the vision came from. And it's not the future.[/qutoe]

Wrong, he clearly says that elsewhere in the Q&A, and the game itself, and the "constructed narrative" doesn't axe that at all.

You realize what an outlandish explanation that is? Especially when there are more reasonable alternatives?

"Hey, how did you know the bus was going to stop here?"

"I got the info from the bus route diagram."
or
"I can see the future."

It's science fiction.

If Zeratul states this is a vision of the future, and we see the future itself, and Brian says the vision shows us the "moment" the Dark Voice would win, guess what?

It's the future.

No I get it. I just don't care, because I don't see where you're getting the idea of "perfect physical mechanics" from.

The whole sun thing. That's what this whole discussion is supposed to be about.

The Overmind is not omniscient. He didn't know about Aiur's location or that he would find Kerrigan on Tarsonis. Your "interpretation" flies in the face of known canon.

What does seeing the future once have to do with omniscience?

Besides, he didn't actually create the vision in his consciousness. It was his sub, or un-conscious mind that did it.

Given that you believe that the vision was constructed later, how do you know that the Overmind didn't know the names of protoss heroes, or how hybrids work, etc?

Arguement of Ignorance.

If we don't see it happen, it didn't.

The burden of proof is on the person proving existence, not the one questioning it.

Besides, Void Rays and Stalkers are in the vision, war assets created after the Overmind's death.

By that point he had already seen lots of shit and even read Zeratul's mind. How the heck is "future pre-cog" the only thing you can possibly think of to explain this? =/

Because it's in our face that the vision is of the future?

Zeratul, Amon and Tassadar know everything in that vision between the three of them. Don't buy that explanation, fine, I don't care, Brian is still clear that the Overmind constructed the narrative from bits and pieces of the knowledge he got from Amon, not some unknown divination event where he saw the "perfect physical truth".

And both Brian and Zeratul state the Overmind had a vision of the future. Not some made up story on "Bros, this likely will happen" it was the definite, "This is going to happen if Kerrigan dies. Here's the moment he wins."

There is not proof that Tassadar or Zeratul added anything to the vision.

Yes, the dark voice won the day in the vision. How the hell does that equate to "perfect future pre-cog". -_-

No, the vision shows the moment the Dark Voice won. The moment is a definite event in the future.

And it's not perfect pre-cog. He didn't see all events everywhere. He's not omniscient. He only saw the future. That future changed when Raynor and Zeratul saw the same vision, and were pivotal characters in events that would shape the future.

I saw the day that the Titanic sunk in the movie. Guess that means I have the special ability see events from the past.

No, you saw the fictional story. The Overmind saw the real deal.

The "Khala" is just a mystical name/religion to describe the innate biological ability (it's not midichlorians as far as I'm aware) of the communal psionic link the Protoss already had and lost contact with after the Xel'Naga's departure (leading to the Aeon of Strife). This was something that the Xel'Naga were well aware of initially.

Eh, sure, but the Khala isn't something that can be easily lost like the link in the Aeon of Strife. DT can't just slink away from it, they have to cut their own nerve chords and mutilate themselves to do it. That says to me the Khala might be a bit stronger, but meh.

But you only disagreed once you knew/it was revealed later (in the EU) that it wasn't possible in the first place - hindsight bias.

How do you know that? I never took it for granted because I never saw it done by the Overmind or an infested Protoss.

It is a "minor" or rather insignificant thing because it is naturally assumed that the Overmind can assimilate the Protoss at the time given that the Overmind knew about them through the Xel'Naga, goes to great lengths to find them and then gloat that it will assimilate the Protoss becoming perfect.

I disagree at that.

Nothing should be taken for granted without the actual display of ability.

It is is "minor" because we don't really need to state it because it's taken for granted. And that's my point, if we can't take something as simple as this for granted, why bother taking anything else they tell/reveal to us for granted? That's the rub.

I don't think such a thing was simple or such a thing could be taken for granted. Kerrigan's transformation was such a big deal, and she was back in SC1 not at all a psionic powerhouse.

The first time we ever see anything that's Protoss/Zerg are the Hybrids from Duran, and the set up for that? It makes me doubt the Overmind could do it especially since we never even saw failures like we did with the Hybrids.

But why should I? There is nothing there to tell me I should break up the vision in parts and think one way about this part and think another for the other part? How does this whole scene make this a naturally intuitive thing for the audience member to do? It doesn't.

Because wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

Doctor Who has influenced me about how I view time and meta-time, universes and parallel universes so that's all I can say about it.

This still doesn't rectify what I mentioned earlier about something either being wholly truth or not (as you yourself took great pains to tell me that you understood that). If one part of it is false, then how do you know the other part isn't either?

One part is only false because of direct changes caused by those who want to change that future.

This again, doesn't change what those factions can actually do capability wise on a strict unit to unit basis.

As such, if Hybrids ever get a large group of Zerg to om nom nom, then I'm going to believe that yeah, that star thing is going to happen.

Which of those two is easier to do for most people?

Depends upon the person.

Not really. The prophecy says "It will end in utter darkness", that is all.

No..

It shows a freaky star thing happening too, visually, while the Preservers are speaking the prophecy.

It changes what was supposed to be taken for granted at the time and how you think about a certain character and what they did. That's a big deal when trying for consistent world-building.

Again, I disagree about it being taken for granted.

As for Star Wars?

The Prequels just didn't happen.

They didn't.

[Gradius]

To be fair, it is presented as a Vision of the Future (tm) in the game. Should a game even have to rely upon Q&A sessions in order to clarify the storyline and plot? No.

Yeah it's pretty much a retcon. I interpreted it as precognition when I played the game. But now Brian released the Q&A and made it clear that it's not.

Will this answer be retracted later? Don't care; not really the topic of contention here. They could just as easily stick with this new interpretation.

A narrative doesn't tell us that it was not a vision of the future.

"Bits and pieces" are not clarified.

And misinterpreting? Any interpretation is a valid interpretation as long as it doesn't break the facts.

Argument from ignorance. What don't you understand about "narrative" or "bits and pieces" anyway? Besides the core concepts?

Only by totally failing at reading comprehension could one not interpret the Overmind's vision as that. It simply does say that.

Where?

When the lead writer says it's a vision of the future and not just some extrapolation? Yeah.

It is a vision of the future....that the Overmind constructed as a narrative from the bits and pieces he got from Amon. Sorry if Brian's answer infringes upon your baseless fan-canon. I know that denial is the first stage of grief, but you'll just have to accept that your "opinion" is wrong.

But we know from the game itself, and Brain himself in the other parts of the Q&A that actually seeing the future is involved.

Same way that I can view the past by watching the history channel.

Kindregan doesn't tell me that.

He states:

"Answer: The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice."

It doesn't state that the Overmind clearly "did not" see the future, when Brian himself states to us that he did as does Zeratul.

It's not just an extrapolation.

Still not a shred of evidence of this second divination event that you randomly made up.

Baseless? IT has a base you just won't see.

And I don't see why I have to prove parallel universes exist, more then I have to prove that protons or electrons exist in the setting.

It's a staple of sci-fi and is home to real world theories. So, why should I have to prove those exist? Should I have to prove that dark energy and dark matter exists in Starcraft as well?

You should prove that it exists because you're the one who thinks the Overmind can see the real actual future, and it's the basis of your argument, even though it has yet to be demonstrated in the SC universe. If you have to invent entire new universes to suit your interpretation, then your theory fails Occam's razor. Not to mention common sense.

Bullshit.

You said Zeratul edited the vision.

Nothing at all states he edited it.

Fine. Zeratul didn't edit the vision. Now what? You're still wrong.

Wrong, he clearly says that elsewhere in the Q&A, and the game itself, and the "constructed narrative" doesn't axe that at all.

The constructed narrative clarifies what type of vision of the future it was:

"That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces"

It was one he constructed from the bits and pieces he got from Amon. I'm sorry that reading comprehension has to be such a challenge.

It's science fiction.

If Zeratul states this is a vision of the future, and we see the future itself, and Brian says the vision shows us the "moment" the Dark Voice would win, guess what?

It's the future.

It's a vision of the future that the Overmind constructed from incomplete information. It's no better than a guess.

If the lead writer tells you that you're wrong, guess what? You're wrong.

The whole sun thing. That's what this whole discussion is supposed to be about.

What about it? You think Amon wouldn't know about a solar system he wants to destroy?

What does seeing the future once have to do with omniscience?

In order to create a 100% accurate narrative like you claim, he has to know the position of every particle in the universe and every decision that every living being will make. That's kind of omniscience by definition.

Are you really saying that he can predict what will happen with planets he's never been to and predict what actions people will have taken that he's never met, yet he can't find the location of Aiur or anything else that he might need? There's only one picture that can describe that level of fail:

Besides, he didn't actually create the vision in his consciousness. It was his sub, or un-conscious mind that did it.

Bullshit. He's narrating the vision for us at the beginning of the mission. Quit making stuff up to try to cover the horrendous flaws in your argument that is now coming apart.

Arguement of Ignorance.

If we don't see it happen, it didn't.

The burden of proof is on the person proving existence, not the one questioning it.

Wow. I can't believe if you actually believe what you're saying, or if you're just way too far on the defensive.

1) YOU are the one claiming the existence of some second 100% accurate divination event that is separate from Brian's answer. The burden of proof is on YOU, assuming you even have a grasp of the crudest comprehension of the term. -_-
2) How in the actual heck is what I posted an argument from ignorance? It's in fact one of the many more reasonable alternatives to your bullshit interpretation, and highlights the fact that you're a long way from proving anything. Did you really just rattle off "argument from ignorance" because of the way I phrased that question?

Because it's in our face that the vision is of the future?

I saw the day that the Titanic sunk in the movie. Guess that means I have the special ability see events from the past.

What are you not getting about the fact that merely calling it "a vision of the future" means jack shit? We already know the vision is wrong. Quit using "vision of the future" as proof for precognition. "Vision of the future" isn't evidence for crap.

And both Brian and Zeratul state the Overmind had a vision of the future.

...constructed from a narrative of scattered images.

Not some made up story on "Bros, this likely will happen" it was the definite, "This is going to happen if Kerrigan dies. Here's the moment he wins."

Don't care. Kerrigan is not dead. The vision is already bunk by default.

There is not proof that Tassadar or Zeratul added anything to the vision.

And let me guess: in ShadowArchon-land this is 100% irrefutable proof that we must now bow down to your plothole-inducing, logic-destroying non-sequitur of an interpretation because we either refuse to consider the other alternatives or are just not intelligent enough to think of them?

No, the vision shows the moment the Dark Voice won. The moment is a definite event in the future.

I saw the moment that the Titanic began sinking. I definitely have the ability to see events from the past.

No, you saw the fictional story. The Overmind saw the real deal.

No, the Overmind constructed a narrative. The Q&A says so. I'm sorry that this is such a ponderous and lofty concept.

[TheEconomist]

Are you really saying that he can predict what will happen with planets he's never been to and predict what actions people will have taken that he's never met, yet he can't find the location of Aiur or anything else that he might need?

dat space magic

[Shadow Archon]

Yeah it's pretty much a retcon. I interpreted it as precognition when I played the game. But now Brian released the Q&A and made it clear that it's not.

I believe the Q&A statement and how it is shown in the game can co-exist.

Kindregan wrote the game, and it states it's a vision of the future.

Argument from ignorance.

No.

You obviously think those words mean something that says it's not from the future. I don't.

What don't you understand about "narrative" or "bits and pieces" anyway? Besides the core concepts?

The narrative? That's just the bit the Overmind talks about the future in the game. The vision comes directly afterwards.

Bits and pieces? That just means the only thing that jump-started the vision of the future was Amon's plans.

How the vision was created exactly? Well, it had something to do with Amon's plan, yet the vision itself is still a vision of the future.

Where?

From the game:

Zeratul
Now, friend Raynor, you must see the Overmind's vision of the future. The end of my people... and of all things. This is our fate, should Kerrigan die...
----------------
Raynor
Zeratul called it a vision of the future. It was the end times, Matt. Armageddon. More protoss than we ever knew existed, but there still weren't enough to stop the hybrid.
--------------------
Raynor
I saw the last vision Zeratul put into the crystal. It was a look into the future - a final battle against the hybrid. Armageddon. Somehow... Kerrigan's the key to preventing it.

Tosh
Who knows how the wheel turns? Cycles upon cycles. This much I know - Those that see the future best take heed. It's both a gift... and a curse.

Raynor
But is it cast in stone? That's what I need to know.

Tosh
Who knows? I've heard you say we are who we choose to be. If that be true, the future cannot be fixed.
------------------
Zeratul
I have pierced the veil of the future and beheld only... oblivion.

Yet one spark of hope remains. You will hold her life in your hands...

...And though justice demands that she die for her crimes, only she can save us.
----------------------
-Zeratul
Raynor... the hounds of the void are closing in... I impart my memory - my very essence - into this Ihan crystal... so that you will see what I have seen... and that the future... may yet have hope.
---------------
Tassadar
Forget what you know, Zeratul. The Overmind saw a vision... the end of all things. And now you must see it too.

That to me pretty much states that the vision was not some fantasy or prediction, but precognition.

It is a vision of the future....that the Overmind constructed as a narrative from the bits and pieces he got from Amon. Sorry if Brian's answer infringes upon your baseless fan-canon. I know that denial is the first stage of grief, but you'll just have to accept that your "opinion" is wrong.

No, I will never accept it, because what Brian's answer says doesn't, at all, destroy the idea that the vision of the future...is an actual vision of the future. Not a prediction, but an actual observation of events yet to come.

Same way that I can view the past by watching the history channel.

Wrong.

He said he saw the definite moment of Amon's victory. That is not a simulation/prediction. That is seeing the event itself.

Still not a shred of evidence of this second divination event that you randomly made up.

Constructing the narrative is just that apparently.

You should prove that it exists because you're the one who thinks the Overmind can see the real actual future, and it's the basis of your argument, even though it has yet to be demonstrated in the SC universe.

It already has in SC2.

If you have to invent entire new universes to suit your interpretation, then your theory fails Occam's razor. Not to mention common sense.

Not really.

Fine. Zeratul didn't edit the vision. Now what? You're still wrong.

No. That means that the only way the information was gained was by seeing the future, especially when that's what the game and writer state!

The constructed narrative clarifies what type of vision of the future it was:

"That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces"

It was one he constructed from the bits and pieces he got from Amon. I'm sorry that reading comprehension has to be such a challenge.

"Bits and pieces"

It doesn't state that those "bits and pieces" come only from Amon.

Sure, it only applies to Amon's plan, but again, there's information that Amon doesn't know, can't know since he's dead during SC1 and SC2, and that the Overmind did know.

If Zeratul says its a vision of the future. I'll take that at face value.

[quote]
It's a vision of the future that the Overmind constructed from incomplete information. It's no better than a guess.[/qutoe]

What incomplete information? The vision seemed straight forward to me, given that's what happened in the future.

If the lead writer tells you that you're wrong, guess what? You're wrong.

Read that sentence to yourself then.

What about it? You think Amon wouldn't know about a solar system he wants to destroy?

No...

We were talking about the psionic shenanigans that happen in the vision and what that has to do with Amon's plans...

Not that "AMON"S GOING TO WINZ!!!"

So, I don't even see what your complaint is even about really.

In order to create a 100% accurate narrative like you claim, he has to know the position of every particle in the universe and every decision that every living being will make. That's kind of omniscience by definition.

....No he wouldn't.

If you observe an event in the future, a possible future only, you don't need to know that.

Obviously, you misunderstood me.

BY saying 100% accurate? I didn't mean the OVermind was at all like Leto II. I meant, the event there happens in the Starcraft universe. As such, the psionic feat of the Hybrids doing that thing to the star shouldn't be discarded as Overmind hogwash.

That's it.

Besides the fact, that's what would happen if Kerrigan died, but we're past that.

Are you really saying that he can predict what will happen with planets he's never been to and predict what actions people will have taken that he's never met, yet he can't find the location of Aiur or anything else that he might need?

It's space magic. It doesn't have to make sense.

Besides, the info he got from Amon set it off. He doesn't have the same sort of fore-knowledge else where. He can't see the future on a whim.

Bullshit. He's narrating the vision for us at the beginning of the mission.

That doesn't mean anything.

That doesn't mean anything at all.

Quit making stuff up to try to cover the horrendous flaws in your argument that is now coming apart.

I could say the same-thing to you. Zeratul and Tassadar editing the vision specifically.

The games and Brian are very clear.

The Overmind saw the future.

1) YOU are the one claiming the existence of some second 100% accurate divination event that is separate from Brian's answer. The burden of proof is on YOU, assuming you even have a grasp of the crudest comprehension of the term. -_-

When he constructed the narration is that point, so I don't see what you mean.

Bits and pieces aren't specified and can include information gained from the future.

2) How in the actual heck is what I posted an argument from ignorance? It's in fact one of the many more reasonable alternatives to your bullshit interpretation, and highlights the fact that you're a long way from proving anything. Did you really just rattle off "argument from ignorance" because of the way I phrased that question?

No.

IF you make up shit, that isn't based on the lore, it's just shit.

We have no idea how those elements were added into the vision. Seeing the future is something that was actually in the lore, Tassadar or Zeratul editing it isn't. That is pure fanon on your part.

What are you not getting about the fact that merely calling it "a vision of the future" means jack shit?

It doesn't mean jack shit, it means what it says.

We already know the vision is wrong. Quit using "vision of the future" as proof for precognition. "Vision of the future" isn't evidence for crap.

It isn't crap. It's legitimate evidence. Stop ignoring canon.

...constructed from a narrative of scattered images.

And?

That doesn't mean anything when we still know that it was the actual future saw.

Don't care. Kerrigan is not dead. The vision is already bunk by default.

...And? Of course it isn't. Jim changed the future by just seeing it.

That's not what I mean when I said 100% accurate. What I mean is it takes place in the Starcraft universe, and uses the same physics. Therefore analyzing what happens to that star is still legitimate to the Hybrid's capabilities.

That's all!

And let me guess: in ShadowArchon-land this is 100% irrefutable proof that we must now bow down to your plothole-inducing, logic-destroying non-sequitur of an interpretation because we either refuse to consider the other alternatives or are just not intelligent enough to think of them?

No. That just means there's no proof for that idea.

Sure, you can have that base-less interpretation. I don't care. But I damn well expect you to understand it's baseless.

And you may not like my interpretation, but you must understand that it is a valid interpretation of the scene.

I saw the moment that the Titanic began sinking. I definitely have the ability to see events from the past.

Wrong.

You saw a re-enactment . Nothing more. Nothing less. You didn't see the moment the Titanic sank. You weren't there.

The Overmind? He saw the real deal. The actual moment.

What's so hard to understand?

How did he do it?

Space bats. That's all there is to say.

No, the Overmind constructed a narrative. The Q&A says so. I'm sorry that this is such a ponderous and lofty concept.

Do you know what a narrative is?

Do you?

"A narrative (or story) is any account of connected events, presented to a reader or listener in a sequence of written or spoken words, or in a sequence of (moving) pictures.[1]"

Guess what?

That doesn't definitely mean it was not a vision of the future at all for any reason.

It's just his damn account of it. That's all.

[Turalyon]

Eh, sure, but the Khala isn't something that can be easily lost like the link in the Aeon of Strife.

Did you just entertain the prospect that the Khala (which is really just a "name") and the shared psionic communal link were the same only to then say they're not the same in the very same sentence? The Khala is the Protoss' current explanation for their inherent-since-inception shared communal psionic link which Khas rediscovered as a means to end the Aeon of Strife - as I said it's their current name/expression for that ability. If the Khala is something more than just the communal psionic link, it is that it's also a religious doctrine and philosophical ideal. This is why the Protoss are stubbornly traditional and loathe to change from the path of Khala because they know they can still lose this link and slide into another Aeon of Strife should they stray from it and of which, the Nerazim represent this fear in the flesh. It's the strict adherence from the Protoss to the doctrine that is collectively called the Khala that is what is maintaining their inherent communal link.

This leads one to think that if the Khala is really just an ideology, how does that stop them from being assimilated? It doesn't, it's their latent psionic ability (the common trait that Khalai and Nerazim share) that prevents this apparently. This of course, is a plot-hole in that the Xel'Naga knew about this ability and would have been one of the first and most extensive things they would have catalogued. This would naturally lead to the Overmind also knowing this after absorbing the Xel'Naga knowledge about the Protoss thereby necessitating that it should know that it can't assimilate the Protoss psionic power because it is that which prevents such a thing from happening and yet it carries on as if it still can. This is why the Overmind retcon in WoL has it explain that it was really this hitherto unknown directive that willed the Overmind to destroy the Protoss in Sc1 and that it was misleading us by saying it wanted and could assimilate the Protoss. It's an attempt to cover up that it couldn't assimilate Protoss (itself an additive retcon when Metzen revealed it as such) and that it should've known that it couldn't. I'm gonna christen this phenomena the "Snowball retcon" (in that it seems to be getting bigger as we go along).

How do you know that? I never took it for granted because I never saw it done by the Overmind or an infested Protoss.

I disagree at that.

Nothing should be taken for granted without the actual display of ability.

It makes me doubt the Overmind could do it especially since we never even saw failures like we did with the Hybrids.

Wait a minute, I more or less pointed this out only for you to correctly deride this line of thinking as an argument from ignorance a few post ago and now you start adopting it as if everything's fine? Unbelievable!

Just because we don't see the Overmind assimilate the Protoss does not mean we can categorically say that it really can or really can't by using this "evidence of absence" alone. However, that the backstory heavily suggests that the Overmind can given its arduous quest for the Protoss space up to its belated victory speech at the end of the Overmind campaign, one is more inclined to think it can rather than can't. There was nothing at the time that remotely suggested the Overmind couldn't but saying that we didn't see it is proof that it can't is just the same as saying we didn't see it but it isn't proof that it can't.

I don't think such a thing was simple or such a thing could be taken for granted. Kerrigan's transformation was such a big deal, and she was back in SC1 not at all a psionic powerhouse.

Don't shift the goalposts. I'm not talking about Kerrigan but the fundamental aspects of what the Overmind was represented as in Sc1. If we can't take certain things for granted, then I'm surprised that (in another thread) you found my hypothetical of Raynor being revealed as a Xel'Naga so disturbing. What's the matter? You shouldn't take it for granted that Raynor is a human.... See where this line of thinking gets you and how some people are irked when such reasoning is used?

Doctor Who has influenced me about how I view time and meta-time, universes and parallel universes so that's all I can say about it.

I'm a DW fan, too, but that is one thing, Starcraft is another. Just because they come under an umbrella of sci-fi does not mean one can necessarily assume the liberties of one universe and apply it to another. Besides, this is by no means an acceptable logical defense for the layman because that's tantamount to shifting the blame on the audience for not realising that an unrelated sci-fi show's in-universe laws should be applied (it's just as bad as the "you should've read the EU books" defense). As such, no-one can be faulted for thinking that the vision is completely false.

One part is only false because of direct changes caused by those who want to change that future.

Hah, I've got you there! You've openly admitted that part of it is false. If that is so, there's nothing stopping it from being wholly false. Where's your "whole truth" or "whole lie" now?

As for Star Wars?

The Prequels just didn't happen.

They didn't.

I'm genuinely surprised. If you can tolerate Sc2's writing foibles surely you could have tolerated the SW prequels.

[Gradius]

Alright alright my sanity can't take this anymore. Does nobody here remember when the Q&A came out where none of us misinterperated Brian's answer to mean anything other than what it says?

Answer: The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice.

Did we not all agree that this answer pretty much upended WoL's portrayal of the vision as "magical future precognition?"

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthrea...-A-11&p=184687

So that means the whole exercise was just a giant red herring to mess with our expectations it seems. Given that what we see is a vision of Raynor's vision of Zeratul's vision of Tassadar's vision of the Overmind's vision of fragmented pieces of what could be the Dark Voice's vision/thought patterns, I wonder how much of it really ends up being true at any level given that this answer is essentially exposing this whole event as just a game of "Chinese whispers".

It's worse than that. The vision shows void rays being nominately mentionned by Mohandar (in actual dialogs), which the Overmind has no way to know about. So it seems Zeratul's mind is also adding pieces here and there.
So that's the player seeing Raynor having a vision of how Zeratul reconstructed bits and feelings given to him by the ghost of Tassadar, who read them from the Overmind's mind, who grasped them from the Dark Voice's mind.
A dream within a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream within a screen. I'm not even exaggerating ^.^

The existence of precognition in SC universe is exactly why I liked the explanation... now we know the OM did something other than that.

The idea that the overmind interpreted fragments of a whole idea and then created the visions Tassadar saw is just a great explanation of the whole prophecy theory.

Did...something change in the meantime or am I taking crazy pills? Anybody? <_<

[Turalyon]

^ Yup, Kindregan's answer is pretty definitive. Only willful evasion/confirmation bias would ever make one interpret that answer as really saying the "Overmind is precognitive". Really, the vision is useless as a plot point and devoid of any value/significance because it adds nothing we don't know already (that the threat/warning of some greater power and their Hybrids exists and was established previously) and that the story still moves on/remains intact without it (Kerrigan is still saved regardless without seeing the vision).