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Thread: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

  1. #1

    Default Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    Before I get into the nitty-gritty, I watched every single match from WCS Europe and NA, and every match from the quarter to finals in Korea. I feel I can safely say Innovation outplayed s0s regardless of Hellbats. That does not, however, mean they aren't broken.


    Resources

    The following threads from 3 different forums are all about the Hellbat.

    http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=416549

    http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9245585508

    http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/co...ucking_stupid/


    Here's the Liquipedia stats page for each the Hellbat and Zealot, two 100 mineral units in the game. I've also included the page for the Medevac because its important.

    http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hellbat

    http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zealot

    http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...f_the_Swarm%29


    Finally, here is the Semi-Finals between MVP and Innovation, and the finals between Innovation and S0S.

    http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2401095

    http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_osl/c/2401143


    I don't expect anyone to read everything so I'll basically sum up the argument: After the WCS finals, where Innovation 4-0'ed s0s, Hellbats are really fucking good, especially with drops.
    Too good.


    -----


    Problem

    So basically, the issue on the table comes down to one thing. Hellbat drops are way too cost effective, always. The ability for a HotS Medevac to Boost in, drop off two Hellbats, and obliterate a worker-line in 2-3 hits around 7:30 with minimal micro is insane. No other drop or harass has nearly the same consistent power potential as Hellbat. There are several major factors I will quickly discuss as to why I believe this is.

    Boost
    Quite simply, the new HotS Medevac Boost is a giant boon for Terran. It has increased Terran mobility across the board, especially with Factory-based Mech styles. This is counter-intuitive to the goal of Mech play vs. Bio play. Mech was designed to play slow and powerful, advancing on the enemy position by holding ground through the use of Siege Tanks. This was in contrast to the Barracks Bio play style of having more mobile but weaker units able to use hit and run tactics to cripple the enemy, so that the Bio player would have an advantage in the head-on fights later.
    But the Medevac Boost mobility combined with the slow yet powerful Mech Hellbat has resulted in, and I use this analogy lighty, a micro-less Terran Reaver Drop.

    Cost
    Cheapest Hellbat drop: 900/400. (Barracks, Factory, Starport, Armory, Medevac, 2 Hellions)
    Cheapest Single Banshee w/ Cloak: 850/625 (Barracks, Factory, Starport, Tech Lab, Banshee, Cloak)
    Cheapest Single Oracle Harrass - 600/300 (Gateway, Cyber Core, Stargate, Oracle)

    Hellbat drop HP total before healing: 420
    Hellbat drop DPS: Splash 15(x2) vs Light

    Banshee HP: 140
    Banshee DPS: 19.2

    Oracle HP: 160
    Oracle DPS: 29 vs light

    Make what you will of these simple numbers, remembering the micro involved in Banshee and Oracle harass compared to a Hellbat drop.

    Splash
    Only 1 common harrass has splash damage, and that's Hellion/Hellbat. Colossus drops are the only option to compare with, and they're extremely rare. The reason why relates back to cost.

    Cheapest Colossus drop: 1200/500 (Gateway, Cyber Core, Robo Facility, Robo Bay, Phase Prism, 1 Colossus)

    Colossus drop total HP: 300 Hp/250 Sp
    Colossus drop DPS: Splash 18.2

    Burst
    Though you can drop 4 Hellions even earlier instead of only 2 Hellbats, the Hellbat is proving far more effective at killing workers than the Hellion has ever been. I believe this is due to 2 differences between the modes.

    First, the wider flame arc of the Hellbat versus the steam of the Hellon ensures a wider distribution of damage across a worker line that is not retreating in single-file. Secondly, the DPS of the Hellbat is nearly 3 times higher than the DPS of the base Hellion (15 to 5.6 [7.6 with Infernal Pre-Igniter]. This has created a burst damage unit in the Hellbat that a defending player just does not have the time to counter until they can properly spot the drop incoming.

    The power of the Hellbat drop to swoop in, clean up a mineral line, and power out thanks to the high DPS and Medevac Boost is unarguably crippling.


    -----


    Solutions

    The list of solutions suggested in the threads above is extensive, so I'll try to grab the most popular. I will explain each suggestion in turn and explain why it is good or bad.


    1. Remove Healing by Medevac
    Some people believe that if Hellbats couldn't be healed by the Medevac, they wouldn't be as dangerous. They couldn't spend as much time in the enemy base. They'd have to bring along SCV's if they wanted to heal, limiting space in the Medevacs for more Hellbats. Both of these thoughts are correct, however the problem with Hellbat drops is not that they heal. Its that they do too much DPS in splash with the mobility provided by Medevac Boost. Hellbats don't need to spend much time in a mineral line to do massive damage, so healing them to keep them there isn't a boon. The Medevac healing has a much stronger effect on Hellbats in a direct battle where they're acctually taking damage consistantly, as showcased in the WCS Finals where Innovation frequently used Hellbats in his main army composition.

    Verdict: Bad (no effect)


    2. Remove Biological tag
    This is related to the removal of healing suggestion, but is distinct due to the side-effect. The biological tag is what lets the Medevac heal the Hellbat. But it is also what gives Protoss Archons an extra 5.7 DPS against them. Without that bonus, a Protoss using a Gateway based army against a Barracks army w/ Hellbats receives a significant loss in power, especially as the added Hellbats are chewing through the Zealots. That being the only minor side-effect, however, means there is wiggle room for balancing numbers to curb that DPS loss. Of course, this is all entirely irrelevant to the main issue, as we already discussed how healing is not the problem.

    Verdict: Bad (no effect)


    3. Increase Hellbat Build Time

    The goal here is to make Hellbats harder to obtain, both the initial drop and any subsequent. A long enough build time would make the expensive Transformation Servos upgrade more desirable, as a player could produce Hellions much faster and then transform them into Hellbats after. There is the possibility of a sweet spot in balancing the build time to make the Servos upgrade justifyable while keeping Hellbat drops viable too, and forcing the drops to come later when the defending player is better equipped to stop them is certainly a step in the right direction.

    Verdict: Good


    4. Add gas cost to Hellbat
    This is another way suggested to make Hellbats harder/later to get. Much like the pure build time increase suggestion, it forces the player to invest more direct resources in every drop, as well as the time to accumulate that extra gas. Barring the oddity of a Hellbat costing gas while its Hellion mode does not, this suggestion has potential.

    Verdict: Good, if a bit strange


    5. Nerf Hellbat Damage
    A simple solution to the burst problem: lower the Hellbat's damage. This would certainly save many workers, requiring more hits to die and giving the defending player more reaction time. But it would also make Hellbats less viable in full on army engagements, which is actually part of their design purpose: to help Terran against mass Zealots and Zerglings in battle. This suggestion is simply not viable.

    Verdict: Bad


    6. Nerf Hellbat Damage until Blue Flame
    In contrast to simply nerfing the Hellbat, forcing it to require an upgrade to do its full damage is a fantastic solution. It achieves the goals suggested by several other solutions to make early Hellbat drops more expensive in resources and time, while still letting the Hellbat be useful in the later full on battles as intended. Quite frankly, this is my vote for best single solution. Making Hellbats require the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade to reach full power solves so many issues with the Hellbat drop.

    Verdict: Great


    7. Make Hellbat Armored instead of Light
    The idea here is to increase the viable defensive counters to the Hellbat. Making it Armored instead of Light like the Hellion would make Stalkers, Marauders, and Spine Crawlers in the mineral line far more effective at killing Hellbats. However, this solution forgets that Hellbats must also be a front-line unit in battle, and making them Armored would cause Sige Tanks to obliterate them in TvT.

    Verdict: Bad


    8. Remove Medevac "Ignite Afterburners"
    This would be a large step in solving the issue. Part of what makes Hellbat drops so deadly is that they come in quickly, hit hard, and then leave just as fast. A slower Medevac means more time for the defending player to react to the incoming drop, and deal more damage to the drop while its occurring and retreating. Unfortunately the rage that would occur if Blizzard removed the new Boost would be legendary.

    Verdict: Good, but extremely unlikely.


    9. Increase Medevac "Ignite Afterburners" cooldown
    The ability of the Medevac drop to come into an enemy base, do its damage, then escape is very important. Again, a huge part of the power of the Hellbat drop is the Medevac and its Boost. By limiting its ability to quickly enter and exit an enemy base, and the frequency it can do so, the power of a drop is significantly halted.

    Verdict: Great


    10. Require Medevac "Ignite Afterburners" to consume Medevac Energy
    At first glance, this seems like an idea in line with the increased cooldown. However, it is quite different in execution. Medevacs use their energy for healing. I already pointed out that healing Hellbats in a drop is not an issue. Even at 100 energy per boost, a Hellbat drop could still come in, do damage, and exit quickly. It would, of course, significantly limit the amount of times a Medevac could Boost in for a drop just like the cooldown. But it would have a side-effect, ironically once again involving Protoss Templar play. A Medevac using energy to enter a Protoss mineral Line would receive less damage from a High Templar Feedback. The ability to Feedback incoming Dropships is a vital staple of Protoss drop defense. Because of Feedback it is sometimes actually better to not damage the Hellbats so that the Medevac does not heal them, and will thus take more damage from Feedback because it has higher energy reserved. That is why I will able this suggestion "plausible," as it would absolutely require fairly significant testing and balance to determine a correct energy cost for the Boost.

    Verdict: Plausible


    -----

    Conclusion

    I'm just going to sum up this post by saying that after careful review, I believe a combination of increasing the Cooldown time of the Medevac's "Ignite Afterburners" boost ability, and forcing the Hellbat to research Infernal Pre-Igniter to achieve the same DPS it has currently, are the perfect solutions to solving the many-faceted problem of the Hellbat drop. The drops would arrive later, less frequently, involve more risk, and reward more skillful players both attacking and defending.


    And now, to your thoughts.
    Last edited by DemolitionSquid; 06-10-2013 at 08:31 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    First off: Great thread D-squid!
    Have a +1

    I wanted to watch a few more WCS games before commenting to see more examples before I post, and I definitely agree on the subject.
    I feel that your conclusion is pretty spot on, especially the blue flame DPS fix. The afterburners fix I'm not so sure on, as I tend to agree with Blizzards reason of even having it in the first place: More drops = more excitement = more fun to watch. Also, we a really just in the infancy of this new strategy. Just think of how bad it's going to get the longer this game goes on.
    And though I feel your idea is great; here's a few of my own:

    Unstable reactor:
    Once a Medivac uses it's "Ignite afterburners" it also trigger's "Unstable reactor" for the duration of the ability. If the Medivac takes damage during its afterburner use; it cancels the ability, bringing it back to it's normal move speed.
    What I feel this would do is to force players to use the Ignite Afterburners more carefully and in a timely fashion. Promoting micro for both parties, and making the harassment a little harder to achieve. No longer just a click and drop format that it currently is, and eliminating the 'pick up - afterburn - re-drop on probes' idea, which I feel is the root of problem. Probes can run from Oracles, but not from Medivacs.
    This makes Photon overcharge, Marines/Turrets, and even queens more able to handle these kinds of drops. It also stops Terran players from having an escape from anything button, and forces them to be more creative with their drops/ retreats.

    Ion pulse:
    -So I'm just thinking of a Protoss fix to the issue here, as that's my race -
    Give the Phoenix a timed ability that slows Mechanical units, every 3-4ish (in game) seconds. Think concussive shells, but for mechanical air.
    Again, this would force a Terran player to actually micro his Medivacs and forces them to think about when to activate their afterburners. Not just click and run. Also I feel it would add to the Protoss army as a whole if players could actually use Phoenixes in large battles, slowing Medivacs and Vikings. In SC1, Zerg players had scourge units that they could just set on patrol on key locations to deflect drops, so parking 3-4 phoenixes to do the same doesn't seem like much of a stretch, and may actually promote their usage in this match up as a whole.
    KCCO

  3. #3

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    Thanks for the input. Glad someone finally decided to respond to my post.

    Here's my thoughts on your ideas.

    1. Unstable Reactor
    Cancelling Ignite Afterburners if the Medevac gets hit solves some of the problems of the Medevac dashing in and out, but I just feel its needlessly complicated. If simply hitting the Medevac is too easy then having a Boost at all becomes pretty pointless, since it's best used in combat situations.

    2. Ion Pulse
    First, Phoenix are already really good opening units, and I actually noted that during WCS early Stargate players had a better time dealing with Hellbat drops. The Phoenix were spotting the drops, taking out or chasing the Medevacs, and lifting the Hellbats to stop them from doing damage as well as making use of their anti-light attack. My suggestions are thus more to help Terran, Zerg, and non-Stargate Protoss. Giving the Phoenix "Ion Pulse" to counter Hellbat drops is just overkill. Secondly, your suggestion to also include Ion Pulse for large battles to slow Vikings and Medevacs is based on a belief that Vikings and Medevacs do much moving in deathball combat. They really don't. They'll micro a few hexes to pick off Collossi or follow the Stimming Marines, but I really don't see an ability to slow them down being very useful because they're both not really that fast to begin with (until the Medevac uses its Boost).

  4. #4

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    So David Kim recently posted this thread on the Battle.Net forums:

    http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9280218214#1

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayvie

    We're looking into it [Hellbat drops].

    Obviously we'd like to see how they turn out in the coming weeks, but initially we're thinking:

    1. Too easy to execute
    2. Especially in TvT, not a lot of risk to doing them (when you don't lose the Medivac)
    3. Might be too early before defenses can be ready

    Rather than jumping to conclusions right now, we'll keep a close eye on it and if in fact Hellbat drops do turn out too strong, we'll do something like rolling in some of their damage with the Infernal Pre igniter upgrade.
    Yeah, I totally called it.

  5. #5
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    I think I'm at around 350 games played and I have yet to lose more than a couple of probes to a Hellbat drop.

    I have, however, instalulzwin several games with them It amazes me how slowly some people react to things. I check the replay, and they're looking right at their workers dying, but still don't do shit about it. Sigh. Maybe they just need to buff the entire human race.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    What about making the Medivac 'boost' an upgrade? A one minute upgrade would delay things, don't you think? Possibly 70 or 80 seconds, yah?
    I've fought for the Terran revolution, I've seen the promise of the Protoss, and now I'm ready to join the might of the Swarm...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    That is also a possibility, Alar. However, Ignite Afterburners was already an upgrade at one stage in beta. I'm not sure they'd go for trying it again.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    The key issue to HB strength is ability to heal - How did that get in there in the 1st place? Cuz the Firebat had it? PFFFF!!!!

    No healing for factory units!! Problem solvedz
    "Wait.....no Gzhee-Gzhee.....?.....whu......Why no Ghzhee-Gzhee?!?!?!?!"


    RIP - Leslie Nielsen

  9. #9

    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Caliban113 View Post
    The key issue to HB strength is ability to heal - How did that get in there in the 1st place? Cuz the Firebat had it? PFFFF!!!!

    No healing for factory units!! Problem solvedz
    Did you... even read my thread?

    Hellbat healing is not a problem, as stupid as it is. Their problem is high DPS splash crossed with Medevac mobility.

  10. #10
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Balancing The Hellbat Drop [WCS Finals SPOILERS]

    Hellbat healing rarely comes into play for me.

    When I drop, my drop either fails or it annihiliates because there are either defenses there or not. Healing would have very little to do with it unless I teched straight to Hellbats, caught my opponent out of base, and there was like one Maurader there. But then, he's either on his way to kill me or I probably would've killed the Maurauder/Stalker without healing.

    The effectiveness of the Hellbat drop is definitely the fact that Medivacs are so fast. Whereas a single turret/cannon/spore should atleast make me hesitate, I just jook on in and drop. Worse, three Medivs full of Hellbats is virtually unstoppable without an army or turret spam, and it destroys all workers before its possible to react, if done correctly. Six Hellbats has enough splash and damage to take out 90% of a worker line in no time flat. I usually do something like this for fully saturated expansions that aren't so well defended. I rarely have problems. I've even had instances against all races where a large portion of their army is right next to their expansions, I move my three medivacs in, and can kill all workers before they react, and they're right there, a few pixels away from auto attacking me. I might lose to Hellbats, but it doesn't really matter when you just took out an expansion.
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 06-21-2013 at 11:39 PM.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

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