What Are You Watching?

[Hawki]

Meh, Klingons and Borg have been done to death. The Borg especially. If you want Borg, just see First Contact.

You can't say the borg have been overused the same way the klingons have. Out of the 12 movies, borg have appeared in one, while klingons have appeared in eight (not counting Worf soloing).

I'd like the new Star Trek to actually try different things like alternate universes instead of the bloody straight-up time travel crap they always inevitably wind up doing. The mirror universe is one way to go about it and although episodes about it were often well-regarded, there weren't actually many of them such that if a movie about it was made, writers are not beholden to stick to any one particular interpretation of it. I could also imagine the Q continuum being a part of these shenanigans, too.

The problem is that the alternate reality is already a...well, alternate reality. The mirror universe is but one universe of multiple alternates, its distinuishing factor is everything is reversed. So, if we're already seeing "alternate Kirk," what's the point of seeing "alternate mirror Kirk?"

I'd like to see the film series explore original material too, but its unlikely to happen, for the same reason Zod is the antagonist in Man of Steel and why Lex Luthor will likely be the antagonist in its sequel. The antagonists are familiar to general audiences, and the films themselves set them up for that direction. The klingons have been built up over the last two films, so it makes sense from a narrative and commercial standpoint that they appear as antagonists in the third. Likewise, Luthor is a well known Superman antagonist, and after all the destruction in the last film, he has plenty of fuel for whatever anti-Superman fire he may care to start.

And I'd also say "no" to the Q-tinuim. As much as I like Q, it's liable to pull the plot into deus ex machina. Something an individual episode can get away with if done right, but a film is another story.

[Turalyon]

You can't say the borg have been overused the same way the klingons have.

Too bad I just did.

I wasn't just counting movies though. Besides, the Borg are pretty stock standard faceless villains until First Contact revealed that queens existed so that, you know, they can hold a conversation. It's a variation of that or they pull another "The Best of Both Worlds" and have Kirk or someone assimilated and then they have to go a rescue them. Been there, done that...

The problem is that the alternate reality is already a...well, alternate reality. The mirror universe is but one universe of multiple alternates, its distinuishing factor is everything is reversed. So, if we're already seeing "alternate Kirk," what's the point of seeing "alternate mirror Kirk?"

Hey, I'm not the writer, I'm just throwing ideas around. They don't have to make a mirror Kirk exactly the opposite/reversed of the "alternate Kirk". There's to more to play with than just the easy out of going "oh, let's just make them all evil versions".

The antagonists are familiar to general audiences, and the films themselves set them up for that direction.

Nero (the Romulan one that is) was familiar to the audience?

And I'd also say "no" to the Q-tinuim. As much as I like Q, it's liable to pull the plot into deus ex machina. Something an individual episode can get away with if done right, but a film is another story.

It's a bit narrow to think Q's only worth is only for DEM. Q has huge potential for shenanigans - the Borg even being part of Star Trek canon was due to Q being an ass and they seem just happy to let them run amok despite having the power to get rid of them at any time which they don't.

[Hawki]

I wasn't just counting movies though. Besides, the Borg are pretty stock standard faceless villains until First Contact revealed that queens existed so that, you know, they can hold a conversation.

Oh, of course. Because, you know, it's not as if any other borg has shown itself capable of conversation apart from queens...

It's a variation of that or they pull another "The Best of Both Worlds" and have Kirk or someone assimilated and then they have to go a rescue them. Been there, done that...

Or they leave the borg a faceless enemy. And faceless enemies can still be decent adversaries.

Nero (the Romulan one that is) was familiar to the audience?

Not Nero himself, but I don't think the romulans can be called obscure themselves per se.

the Borg even being part of Star Trek canon was due to Q being an ass

No, the borg were already on their way to the Federation before Q sent the Enterprise into their territory - if anything, he gave them advance warning. If you want to lay the blame on anyone, lay it on Archer for failing to prevent the drones sending a message into borg space in the 22nd century.

and they seem just happy to let them run amok despite having the power to get rid of them at any time which they don't.

It's more a case of them not caring/having rules against interferance.

[Quirel]

^ The only reason Star Trek doesn't show the more practical uses of some of this technology in military practice was because the humans in Star Trek are somewhat pacifistic and egalitarian.

Yes, yes, I know all about Roddenberry's Utopian ideals, where humanism conquers Humanity's innately violent nature.
Specific to this movie, it doesn't make sense that a brutal super-genius like Khan wouldn't have thought of the tele-pedo, or at least using teleporters to accurately place bombs in ships that have had their shields depleted, or drop them onto a planet's surface. From there, it's only a minor conceptual leap to apply the trans-warp teleporter technology.

Generally to the Star Trek universe as a whole, I guess I can accept a pacifistic Humanity that has forgotten how to wage war. What doesn't make sense is how this seems to bleed over into their engineering. There's no failsafes, no crew protections in the event of a collision, and little in the way of "Hey, this planet might have a bacteria that secretes a deadly neurotoxin or something. Why don't we set up a clean-room in the teleporter bay?" It's like the explorers of the Federation are too innocent to realize that they could be in danger, even after they see redshirts get torn apart by the glittering scuttlecrabs of Nokmar III or swallowed by the Mendicant Sapient Black Hole of the Treydarius Nebula.

They probably and genuinely didn't think of it in military terms hence no using teleporting beams to destroy ships or transporting bombs and the crappy design of exposed bridges and such. On the other hand, Star Trek's mirror universe equivalent of the Federation, the Terran Empire, is supposedly the most advanced, feared, evil and dominating force so we might expect them to be abusing such tech one would imagine. Come to think of it, having the mirror universe humans as antagonists would make for a cool Trek movie.

In my humble opinion, Star Trek is almost at its worst when it relies on time travel or alternate universes to set up the plot (It's at it's absolute baseline "He's dead, Jim. Don't bother resuscitating." when they use the Holodeck.) It's kind of like admitting that the galaxy isn't interesting without sperm whales or mirror-Spock.

Not sure about Superman being the most boring since one could milk the angle that he's more alien than human and vice versa to kingdom come not to mention all the angst and stoicism that either can bring. Just needs a good writer is all.

Problem is, he rarely gets that good writer.

The problem is that Superman is a borderline Mary Sue. He's got tons of abilities (just about anything you can append 'super-' to, really), his big weakness is a rare* green rock, he's hyperintelligent, and he's able to work a job, police Metropolis, and do housework at the Fortress of Solitude in a twenty-four hour day.

With all those qualities, it's hard to write a good challenge for him without resorting to the old standby of green spacerocks.

*Or maybe not so rare. Larry Niven estimates that Krypton must have weighed at least one solar mass in order for all that Kryptonite to have reached Earth.

The Great Gatsby

A film I'd call "good" on my scale. Undoubtedly flawed, and primarily because of the fact that for quite awhile, the film moves much too quickly. Once it slows down, once its visuals can be allowed to sink in rather than being thrown in our faces, the movie benefits for it. And as bland as Toby McGuire is (which makes him the perfect choice to play Nick I guess), deCaprio makes for a...well, "great Gatsby." All in all, good film. Has far more heart than the earlier adaptation I saw way back in secondary school, and IMO, communicates its message better.

Sadly, have not read the book or watched the movie.

Star TrekExcept those examples are all from the 24th century, whereas the films still take place in the 23rd century. And as per said continuity, the klingons don't have an excuse for a buff in tech.

Still not sure that teleportation inhibitor technology wouldn't exist in the 23rd century. Could you imagine the security nightmare presented by unblockable teleporters?

Khan wouldn't have needed to suborn an officer with a sick child in order to plant a bomb. He'd just need access to a teleporter and whatever widget he could cook up to drop that ring into a vial of water once a timer reached zero.

But while klingons don't have a buff, I'd like to think they'd have the tech to prevent meteorites from hitting their planet...said planet being apparently undefended in Into Darkness notwithstanding.

True. This tactic is akin to killing a Jedi with a shotgun. If your spread is big enough, and you fire fast enough, he can't block all of them. Of course, a few pellets aren't going to injure a Jedi or even slow one down, so this analogy requires...
*checks Wookiepedia*

Synox coated shot? Yeah, let's go with that.

Oh, of course. Because, you know, it's not as if any other borg has shown itself capable of conversation apart from queens...

Remind me, what was Seven of Nine? Aside from blatant fanservice?

Not Nero himself, but I don't think the romulans can be called obscure themselves per se.

What about the Remans? Everyone remembers them, right? XD

[Hawki]

Specific to this movie, it doesn't make sense that a brutal super-genius like Khan wouldn't have thought of the tele-pedo, or at least using teleporters to accurately place bombs in ships that have had their shields depleted, or drop them onto a planet's surface.

As I mentioned before, it's iffy enough that Khan's even working on the tech at all. Or maybe he lacks motivation/was stalling for time.

Generally to the Star Trek universe as a whole, I guess I can accept a pacifistic Humanity that has forgotten how to wage war.

Given how many times humanity has gone to war in the setting, I don't think humanity's forgotten, it's just not their preferred method of doing things. Which again, raises the question of why the Federation needs Khan to design do-hickeys when they've shown themselves capable of developing weapons themselves.

"Hey, this planet might have a bacteria that secretes a deadly neurotoxin or something. Why don't we set up a clean-room in the teleporter bay?"

They did have to go through decon in the 22nd century, and decon filters were installed on transporters by the 24th century (possibly 23rd as well). But it's kinda moot - there's a general assumption in sci-fi that the whole issue of alien infection is taken care of within the setting itself, along with everything from dealing with variations in gravity, air composition, day-night cycles, and everything else. With episodes being 45 minutes in length, I can't begrude that stuff not being shown, or even in written format.

In my humble opinion, Star Trek is almost at its worst when it relies on time travel or alternate universes to set up the plot

I don't mind alternate universes. Time travel is a bit more iffy for me, or at least, when it shows the Enterprise and klingon ships can easily time travel during the TOS era, how such technology exists, but we only have vague explanations as to why it isn't used for its fullest.

I guess the best and worst of Star Trek for me is because of the same thing - it's at its best when it deals with "Rodenberryism" in a good way, the idea of striving for those ideals. It's at its worst when the characters act like those ideals have already been reached and come off as prats as a result (as in, season 1 of TNG and at least half of Enterprise).

With all those qualities, it's hard to write a good challenge for him without resorting to the old standby of green spacerocks.

I'm not a big reader of (superhero) comics, but of what I understand of Superman, to be honest, I don't think he needs challenges per se to make the character interesting, or at least, not adversarial ones. As Turalyon touched on, we have a god among men who has to deal with the question of how much he should be involved in the affairs of humankind - when is it "right" for him to save the day, and when must he stand aside and allow humanity to overcome his own problems? Such ideas have been touched on in both the movies and comics, so while they don't lend themselves well to action, they can make for good reading...maybe. Like I said, not a big comic reader.

Still not sure that teleportation inhibitor technology wouldn't exist in the 23rd century. Could you imagine the security nightmare presented by unblockable teleporters?

Oh it does for ships at least. Though given the transporter buff Spock's future knowledge provided in the last movie, not sure if that remains true for the alternate setting.

True. This tactic is akin to killing a Jedi with a shotgun. If your spread is big enough, and you fire fast enough, he can't block all of them. Of course, a few pellets aren't going to injure a Jedi or even slow one down, so this analogy requires...
*checks Wookiepedia*

Synox coated shot? Yeah, let's go with that.

Synox-coated...whaa?

How the heck did you even find that?

That being said, I like to imagine that the reason projectile-based weapons aren't used against Jedi is that they can use their telekinetic abilities to control the bullets akin to Neo. That, and if lasers fired en masse can all be deflected by a Jedi's lightsaber, they can presumably move fast enough to cover slugs.

That, and lightsabers are cool. Deal with it.

Remind me, what was Seven of Nine? Aside from blatant fanservice?

Former drone converted to fan-service. And a character who's generally well regarded as far as I can tell, but most of what I know of Voyager comes from sfdebris.

Point is, the borg don't need queens to speak. There's a reason they say "we are the borg" when addressing their foes. They speak and act as one, and generally, they only use individuals to speak when the situation calls for it (e.g. using borg-Picard to psychologically spook Riker, or using Seven of Nine for ease of communication with Janeway).

What about the Remans? Everyone remembers them, right? XD

Remembers, but I'm guessing begrudgingly.

[Turalyon]

Oh, of course. Because, you know, it's not as if any other borg has shown itself capable of conversation apart from queens...

Seven of Nine talked? I was too distracted...

Besides, she's only talked once she became emancipated so she doesn't really count as the usual Borg being capable of conversation. Heck, I find it hard to fathom that Borg would even have Queens in the first place.

Or they leave the borg a faceless enemy. And faceless enemies can still be decent adversaries

For action movies, yeah. Then again, Star Trek is kinda like that now so I guess it won't hurt.

Not Nero himself, but I don't think the romulans can be called obscure themselves per se.

Sure, but it's not as if any casual person would immediately think of Romulans when someone utters "Star Trek".

No, the borg were already on their way to the Federation before Q sent the Enterprise into their territory - if anything, he gave them advance warning.

True, but the reason why the Borg were heading toward the Federation in the 'first' place is due to Q's shenanigans. Yep, typical timey wimey stuff going on here.

If you want to lay the blame on anyone, lay it on Archer for failing to prevent the drones sending a message into borg space in the 22nd century.

Ah yes, let's blame it on Archer and the series Enterprise. They cop a lot of flak, might as well chalk this up as another one on the list.

Specific to this movie, it doesn't make sense that a brutal super-genius like Khan wouldn't have thought of the tele-pedo, or at least using teleporters to accurately place bombs in ships that have had their shields depleted, or drop them onto a planet's surface. From there, it's only a minor conceptual leap to apply the trans-warp teleporter technology.

Eh, chalk it up to character flaw. It'd be "too easy" for Khan to do that, he wants to showboat like all Star Trek villains seem to do. Going along these lines though we might as well ask why they don't use warp engines (note that Star Trek warp technology is not like other Sci-fi warp tech since the object still exists in a pocket of normal space-time) for their missile technology as well.

Generally to the Star Trek universe as a whole, I guess I can accept a pacifistic Humanity that has forgotten how to wage war. What doesn't make sense is how this seems to bleed over into their engineering. There's no failsafes, no crew protections in the event of a collision, and little in the way of "Hey, this planet might have a bacteria that secretes a deadly neurotoxin or something. Why don't we set up a clean-room in the teleporter bay?" It's like the explorers of the Federation are too innocent to realize that they could be in danger, even after they see redshirts get torn apart by the glittering scuttlecrabs of Nokmar III or swallowed by the Mendicant Sapient Black Hole of the Treydarius Nebula.

I guess that these oversights are part of the mindset of an "explorer" race. They're just plain reckless. "Safety? What's that? Ohh, look at that!" (proceeds to get infected by some virulent pathogen, ripped apart by spatial anomaly etc.)

In my humble opinion, Star Trek is almost at its worst when it relies on time travel or alternate universes to set up the plot (It's at it's absolute baseline "He's dead, Jim. Don't bother resuscitating." when they use the Holodeck.) It's kind of like admitting that the galaxy isn't interesting without sperm whales or mirror-Spock.

I agree. However, they've dug into the "time travel" bucket much, much more than "alternate universe" bucket.

Problem is, he rarely gets that good writer.

The problem is that Superman is a borderline Mary Sue. He's got tons of abilities (just about anything you can append 'super-' to, really), his big weakness is a rare* green rock, he's hyperintelligent, and he's able to work a job, police Metropolis, and do housework at the Fortress of Solitude in a twenty-four hour day.

With all those qualities, it's hard to write a good challenge for him without resorting to the old standby of green spacerocks.

To me, the best Superman stories are, funnily enough, ones that don't really focus on Superman directly or tend to focus on his more human aspects (one can regard that as a weakness I suppose).

As for physical challenges, there are plenty of supervillains that can go toe-to-toe with him these days so there should be less need to use the green rock plot device as often.

He'd just need access to a teleporter and whatever widget he could cook up to drop that ring into a vial of water once a timer reached zero.

Well, since any schmo can do that, it wouldn't make it very exciting would it? I mean, if the technology was used to its fullest capability all the time, anything can be resolved through timely application of transporter beams and the movie would be terribly short.

Remind me, what was Seven of Nine? Aside from blatant fanservice?

Official Answer: She was an emancipated Borg drone who had been part of the Borg collective for most of her life.

Real Answer: A mightily successful ratings puller.

[Hawki]

Besides, she's only talked once she became emancipated

No, she speaks directly to Janeway as a drone. Watch Scorpion again.

Heck, I find it hard to fathom that Borg would even have Queens in the first place.

So, if I'm comfortable with non-queens talking, and you find it hard to fathom that they have queens...why are we even having this conversation?

Sure, but it's not as if any casual person would immediately think of Romulans when someone utters "Star Trek".

Maybe, but while Star Trek itself isn't obscure, how many species are in common knowledge? Klingons, probably borg, maybe vulcans by virtue of Spock...but if there's a 'secondary level' of species familiarity, then the romulans would definately be in it IMO.

True, but the reason why the Borg were heading toward the Federation in the 'first' place is due to Q's shenanigans.

I assume you mean where Q flings the Enterprise into borg space? Look up your history again - even ignoring the Hanens being assimilated, the borg assimilated the USS Tombaugh in 2362, and destroyed several Federation and romulan outposts in 2364. Q's shenanigans happened in 2365. The borg were clearly on their way beforehand, and whatever prompting his actions may have provided, it was far more valuable to the Federation since they immediately began preparing for the borg in the same season they were introduced in.

Ah yes, let's blame it on Archer and the series Enterprise. They cop a lot of flak, might as well chalk this up as another one on the list.

Jonathan "Duchess" Archer deserves most of that flak. I can lay whatever other flak on him I damn well please.

As for physical challenges, there are plenty of supervillains that can go toe-to-toe with him these days

Such as? I can think of Zod, Darkseid, and Doomsday, but does that count as "plenty?" Not to mention Zod's already carked it in Man of Steel.

[Turalyon]

No, she speaks directly to Janeway as a drone. Watch Scorpion again.].

Yeah, a real meaningful chat that one...

So, if I'm comfortable with non-queens talking, and you find it hard to fathom that they have queens...why are we even having this conversation?

Different points of contention here. The fact that Borg have no need for diplomacy/ don't talk is not what I'm worried about because that was how they were initially conceptualised as. However, it does make them very one note as main villains/antagonists for a movie. It was the reason why the Queen was invented for First Contact - to give the general audience a "face"/ focal point for the Borg. Likewise, if the Avengers didn't have Loki to focus on as an antagonist, you'd just have a meaningless conflict against the "faceless" (it goes without saying that I don't mean this literally though sometimes I feel like I have to spell it out for you sometimes ) chitauri.

The only problem I have with the concept of a Borg Queen is an intellectual one. The Borg, as initially conceptualised, have no hierarchy nor need for diplomacy or talking. They are scary not only because of the obvious body horror they possess but because they are unrelenting and unstoppable due to those above qualities. The Borg Queen represents hierarchy and diplomacy - something that would be identified by the Borg as a weakness to be curtailed not promoted. Proceed to Locutus facepalm.

Maybe, but while Star Trek itself isn't obscure, how many species are in common knowledge? Klingons, probably borg, maybe vulcans by virtue of Spock...but if there's a 'secondary level' of species familiarity, then the romulans would definately be in it IMO.

That's right, "secondary level of familiarity" means they're potentially obscure enough for the casual audience that they may not know anything worthwhile about them. That the audience would potentially know even less about Nero (and having no setup at all for the the general audience consciousness at large prior to release) didn't stop the movie from doing well because there weren't as many preconcieved notions about the villain. Therefore, a third movie shouldn't feel beholden to go to Klingons or established antagonists because of all the 'baggage' that has accumulated in the public consciousness at large. It's also partly why the reveal that Harrison was Khan was a setback to Into Darkness.

I assume you mean where Q flings the Enterprise into borg space? Look up your history again - even ignoring the Hanens being assimilated, the borg assimilated the USS Tombaugh in 2362, and destroyed several Federation and romulan outposts in 2364. Q's shenanigans happened in 2365. The borg were clearly on their way beforehand, and whatever prompting his actions may have provided, it was far more valuable to the Federation since they immediately began preparing for the borg in the same season they were introduced in.

As I said, it's timey wimey so "history" is relative. The reason why the Borg are even heading towards the Federation in the 'first' place is due to the stable time loop that Q created when he sent Picard to Borg space. When it comes to time travel the origins of something doesn't necessarily have to be linearly right from the beginning.

After this initial confrontation setup by Q, the Borg are so interested in humanity that they go back in time to try and assimilate them before they become a problem (First Contact). As with most time stories, not everything remained the same after that incident which led to Archer and co. encountering them and failing to stop them from signalling the Borg - which eventually allows the 24th Century Borg to then start heading towards the Federation.

Jonathan "Duchess" Archer deserves most of that flak.

No, he deserves no flak nor any recognition of import at all since it's canon for him to be completely ignored by all future (in terms of continuity) Star Treks despite him being one of the first ever explorers with notable achievements in diplomacy with alien species, preventing the Xindi from, you know, exterminating humankind and having a hand in forming the Federation. It should be expected of one to wonder what was so special with Kirk when Archer had already been there and done that but funnily enough no-one ever does.

Such as? I can think of Zod, Darkseid, and Doomsday, but does that count as "plenty?" Not to mention Zod's already carked it in Man of Steel.

You forgot Brainiac and Bizarro on that above list. Also, granted they're not as well known, but we have the likes of Parasite and Mongul, too.

[Turalyon]

Damn double post

[Hawki]

So, quick blurb, started watching (sort of) Final Fantasy: Unlimited on YouTube. Um...the English dub is atrocious, the Japanese is better but it means I can't do other stuff at the same time and listen rather than dedicate all my attention to it, it's crazy, it's nonsensical, and if not for the presence of chocobos, I'd have no idea this was a Final Fantasy series.

Anyway, bitching over, time for more bitching:

Different points of contention here. The fact that Borg have no need for diplomacy/ don't talk is not what I'm worried about because that was how they were initially conceptualised as. However, it does make them very one note as main villains/antagonists for a movie. It was the reason why the Queen was invented for First Contact - to give the general audience a "face"/ focal point for the Borg.

I've seen the argument that the queen was invented more as a "devil on Data's shoulder," that it would make it easier for the borg to seduce him if there was an actual individual trying to pry the info out of him. But of course, there's lots of factors to consider.

Again, there's not really anything in your statement I disagree with. I've kinda forgotten how this all began, but IMO, the borg can still be an effective enemy, with or without a face. They didn't have a 'face' when they were first encountered, and they worked well as adversaries. And while I'd like to see the new continuity enter new ground, realistically, I doubt it'll happen. So from a commercial standpoint, it makes sense for the borg to come in.

Likewise, if the Avengers didn't have Loki to focus on as an antagonist, you'd just have a meaningless conflict against the "faceless" (it goes without saying that I don't mean this literally though sometimes I feel like I have to spell it out for you sometimes ) chitauri.

Careful Turalyon...come too close and you may find yourself without a face.

That being said, there's another difference in that the 'face' of the borg shares the same goals as the borg. The chitauri however, are basically just tools of Loki - faceless not because of any intention to inspire fear or dread, but because the writers couldn't be arsed to actually tell us anything about them bar "they're aliens, the heroes fight them, what more do you want?"

No, he deserves no flak nor any recognition of import at all since it's canon for him to be completely ignored by all future (in terms of continuity) Star Treks

Except Riker and Troi, and practically every piece of EU material released after Enterprise. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when the simple explanation exists that Enterprise hadn't been planned during the prior TV series, ergo, Archer couldn't be referenced.

despite him being one of the first ever explorers with notable achievements in diplomacy with alien species, preventing the Xindi from, you know, exterminating humankind and having a hand in forming the Federation.

And all his failures. And casually comitting a species to death. And acting like a schizophrenic.

Maybe he changes for the better in season 3 and onwards - certainly I liked Archer in The Romulan War novel duology. But for the first two seasons of Enterprise (the only seasons I've seen), Archer never learns from his mistakes, basically destroys everything he touches, and acts like a prat the entire time. Kind of like Picard in season 1 of TNG, but without any of the charisma or actual competence.

You forgot Brainiac and Bizarro on that above list. Also, granted they're not as well known, but we have the likes of Parasite and Mongul, too.

Ugh...I suddenly feel all dirty after seeing some of the info on DC wikia on those characters.

Anyway, point conceded, Superman has foes outside the ones I mentioned, though I'm not sure how they'd do moviewise. Maybe Lex Luthor would be a villain in Man of Steel 2, creates Bizarro, who becomes the antagonist of the third film? Just spitballing here, but let's face it, if DC wants a cinematic universe, Superman will likely be their Iron Man equivalent in regards to being the poster boy of the series, including getting the most films in that deal.