Moron of the Year Award - Arcturus Mengsk

[LestersPetZergling]

That is correct. Sadly, all the critics of Brood War and vanilla believe that characters have to be at a Mary Sue level of Godhood else they're stupid.

I mean really now, he was an idiot for pissing off Raynor?

Raynor? His military experience?

A CORPORAL

CORPORAL

It's like calling Tirion Fordring an idiot for sending in Leeroy Jenkins to attack the Lich King then pissing off a gnome.

[Turalyon]

Sadly, all the critics of Brood War and vanilla believe that characters have to be at a Mary Sue level of Godhood else they're stupid.

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to expect sci-fi universes tending to feature unrealistically larger than life characters with traits to match.

I mean really now, he was an idiot for pissing off Raynor?

Where was that said? Mengsk is only an idiot for doing a poor job of handling Raynor. Mengsk can't be held responsible for Raynor's own anger/grief management issues.

[LestersPetZergling]

SC1:
Creates his greatest enemies by leaving Kerrigan on Tarsonis.

How is that idiotic? He pissed off a guy who's highest military rank was Corporal.

Also, he was one of the people that knew Kerrigan best. She had a mental breakdown on the Hyperion's bridge because of Tarsonis. Thus he knew that now she wasn't being controlled, and let Raynor go etc etc, he could probably assume she was still moral. So when she killed Duke...

[LestersPetZergling]

Also... well...



Let's just handwave away why his clone didn't put Raynor in the Imperial Palace in the first place. SEE... HoTS ends. Everything Mengsk does is a plot device to continue the story!

[Gradius]

That is correct. Sadly, all the critics of Brood War and vanilla believe that characters have to be at a Mary Sue level of Godhood else they're stupid.

I mean really now, he was an idiot for pissing off Raynor?

Raynor? His military experience?

A CORPORAL

CORPORAL

It's like calling Tirion Fordring an idiot for sending in Leeroy Jenkins to attack the Lich King then pissing off a gnome.

I hate quoting myself from the same thread:

Abandoning Kerrigan is stupid in hindsight, which is why I put it on there. I didn't say it was his fault.

[LestersPetZergling]

Expects the UED to simply "let him go" after they take Korhal and he announces his intention to rebel.

I hate you ignoring lore. If the UED executed him, he would be a martyr. Just like if the Dominion executed Raynor. Just like...

... his father. His father's assassination propelled the Sons of Korhal. He was expecting the UED to leave him alive because killing him would cause the loyal billions of the Dominion to go psycho. If he was left alive, he would be broken and desolate, remember? That's why Kerrigan left him alive.

Everything that you think made him an idiot in Rebel Yell and Brood War is just the fact that he is not Mary Sue God.

Given how easily the UED took over the Sector, Mengsk would have expected that he would be left alive as an example, because they didn't see him as a threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

The guy rebels, but the state doesn't execute him. They leave him as a broken example. That's what Mengsk was assuming.

Last time the Mengsk family dealt with the UED at point-blank range, they weren't executed. Actually, since Mengsk is an Old Family, I would have to say that the Mengsk family were in good-standing with the UED before they left on the supercarriers. Thus, another reason.

Why does everyone expect everyone to act perfectly logical and omniscient in StarCraft? Like how I know people bitch about Kerrigan leaving the Korpulu Sector alone when she could of killed everyone. Not everyone in StarCraft is a robot...

For example, Fenix and Duke are too headstrong and unemotional -- Duke just laughs at Kerrigan sayin -- "Do your worst girl! You ain't takin' down Edmund Duke without a fight!'. She wouldn't get any sadistic value out of leaving him alone, nor would she with Fenix.

Raynor and Mengsk however, they are always brooding and emotional. Raynor having nightmares for four years, drinking... Mengsk, blah blah blah.

And about 'Duke' being incompetent, well, I hate to say it; but most times we 'defeated' him, he just had one battlecruiser. I mean, he went up against the whole Swarm on Char with a single battlecruiser and everyone calls him incompetent? How could he win against that? He held the UED back for hours before they took over Korhal.

And maybe Mengsk thought that because the Protoss retreated from Duke at Mar Sara, he was good against them as well. Warfield had the Dominion fleet and it all got destroyed in seconds at Char. Duke had one ship and some troops and he was fighting the Protoss and the Zerg on Char for WEEKS or MONTHS!

Duke's forces also defeated the Zerg on Chau Sara. It was only after they pulled back that the planet fell.

So nothing Mengsk really does before his clone imprisoned him on a beach is stupid.

[Gradius]

I hate you ignoring lore. If the UED executed him, he would be a martyr. Just like if the Dominion executed Raynor. Just like...

Dugalle disagrees: "Hah! The man who crowns himself 'Emperor' speaks to me of daring? You have far outlived your reputation citizen Mengsk."

Who's ignoring lore? The martyr excuse is even more bunk with Mengsk than it is with Raynor, because at least the latter isn't a dictator that committed genocide against multiple worlds. Did any of the people that Henry VIII executed affect him in any way afterwards? No. Guess who cared when Stalin executed thousands of other thinkers & political figures, like Leon Trotsky? Nobody. I hate the martyr excuse.

... his father. His father's assassination propelled the Sons of Korhal. He was expecting the UED to leave him alive because killing him would cause the loyal billions of the Dominion to go psycho. If he was left alive, he would be broken and desolate, remember? That's why Kerrigan left him alive.

There's a giant logic gap between Kerrigan leaving Mengsk alive for personal revenge and leaving him alive because otherwise "the loyal billions of the Dominion would go psycho". Guess what, even when the "citizens go psycho", it's almost never enough to overthrow the government. Even the Korhal rebellion failed miserably until the zerg showed up.

Given how easily the UED took over the Sector, Mengsk would have expected that he would be left alive as an example, because they didn't see him as a threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

The guy rebels, but the state doesn't execute him. They leave him as a broken example. That's what Mengsk was assuming.

If that's really what he was assuming, he should have said something along those lines, not "I'm just going to rebel and bring you down after you let me go." Especially considering that he had zero leverage. He's an idiot.

Last time the Mengsk family dealt with the UED at point-blank range, they weren't executed. Actually, since Mengsk is an Old Family, I would have to say that the Mengsk family were in good-standing with the UED before they left on the supercarriers. Thus, another reason.

What are you talking about? When did the Mengsk family deal with the UED prior? The original "old families" were convicts slated for execution by the UPL. How is that "good standing"? =/

Raynor and Mengsk however, they are always brooding and emotional. Raynor having nightmares for four years, drinking... Mengsk, blah blah blah.

And about 'Duke' being incompetent, well, I hate to say it; but most times we 'defeated' him, he just had one battlecruiser. I mean, he went up against the whole Swarm on Char with a single battlecruiser and everyone calls him incompetent? How could he win against that? He held the UED back for hours before they took over Korhal.

And maybe Mengsk thought that because the Protoss retreated from Duke at Mar Sara, he was good against them as well. Warfield had the Dominion fleet and it all got destroyed in seconds at Char. Duke had one ship and some troops and he was fighting the Protoss and the Zerg on Char for WEEKS or MONTHS!

Duke's forces also defeated the Zerg on Chau Sara. It was only after they pulled back that the planet fell.

So nothing Mengsk really does before his clone imprisoned him on a beach is stupid.

Duke is one of my favorite characters, though I fail to see how you jump to your last conclusion there.

[Hawki]

And about 'Duke' being incompetent, well, I hate to say it; but most times we 'defeated' him, he just had one battlecruiser. I mean, he went up against the whole Swarm on Char with a single battlecruiser and everyone calls him incompetent? How could he win against that? He held the UED back for hours before they took over Korhal.

And maybe Mengsk thought that because the Protoss retreated from Duke at Mar Sara, he was good against them as well. Warfield had the Dominion fleet and it all got destroyed in seconds at Char. Duke had one ship and some troops and he was fighting the Protoss and the Zerg on Char for WEEKS or MONTHS!

I really have to interject here. Seriously, Duke's competence fluctuates in accordance with plot, and it always has. And at Char he had far more than one ship, and lost all but the Norad III and one other IIRC within the span of hours, or days at the most. In the same span of time, Warfield is able to establish a beachhead, keep the beachhead, and not lose his entire fleet and ground forces in the process. And when he finally gets back to Char, he gets his arse handed to him again by Tassadar. And then loses at Bhekar Ro. And at the Dylarian Shipyards. And at Korhal. And at Korhal again with Kerrigan. The only time that Duke's ever scored a victory that can be attributed to his own merits is on Chau Sara and arguably in the SoK assault on Tarsonis.

If you like Duke as a character, that's fine, to each their own. But he's hardly a character I can call competent.

[LestersPetZergling]

Warfield is able to establish a beachhead, keep the beachhead, and not lose his entire fleet and ground forces in the process.

I didn't know Raynor was called Warfield? What was Warfield's role?

"Shut up terrorist fiend, I've fought the Swarm five-times!"

"I've held the line..."



"while you and your terrorist friends hid under a rock."

Good god, that line alone damns him to eternal idiocy. Raynor was on the ground at Tarsonis, he was holding against the Zerg Swarm with a couple of guys, and wait... Didn't Raynor basically kill everyone on the Bucephalus and hold Valerian at gunpoint? Is this your idea of a master general? How does Ramboing a whole battlecruiser equate to Raynor hiding under a rock? Bam. Warfield is dumb.

Then in the next two seconds he gets half the fleet blown up by his idiocy. He flails about on his battlecruiser whilst he sustains terrible terrible damage, and Raynor has to save him.

You basically attributed everything good that Raynor did to Warfield. Warfield basically got his fortress overwhelmed in 2 seconds.

Who's ignoring lore? The martyr excuse is even more bunk with Mengsk than it is with Raynor, because at least the latter isn't a dictator that committed genocide against multiple worlds. Did any of the people that Henry VIII executed affect him in any way afterwards? No. Guess who cared when Stalin executed thousands of other thinkers & political figures, like Leon Trotsky? Nobody. I hate the martyr excuse.

This is the Korpulu Sector. A new rebellion or war starts every day. These people are descendants of criminals, rebels, outlaws etc, not police officers and librarians.

And no one knew that Mengsk used psi-emitters. A martyr's death essentially formed the two biggest rebellions of the Sector. Angus Mengsk and Kerrigan (Sons of Korhal, Raynor's Raiders).

And no, Mengsk is not comparable to Trotsky. Mengsk is the ruler of the regime. He is the one who everyone is brainwashed to love.

Like an example, if America invaded North Korea and executed Kim Jung whatever... The native reaction to that compared to executing someone in a concentration camp.

Duke is one of my favorite characters, though I fail to see how you jump to your last conclusion there.

I've always noticed a certain Brood War hater rant on the forums about how Duke was useless (e.g. putting him as a top general was stupid), and why Kerrigan didn't kill Mengsk instead.

What are you talking about? When did the Mengsk family deal with the UED prior? The original "old families" were convicts slated for execution by the UPL. How is that "good standing"? =/

The Old Families were the commanders of the Supercarriers. They were probably voluntary UPL, thus the difference between Old Family and non-Old Family (e.g. compare a Fringe Worlder to Mengsk). And this is speculation, but it is very likely that Schezar's Scavengers were related to the UED in some way (e.g. Zerg-control).

[Hawki]

Raynor was on the ground at Tarsonis,

Four years ago in a different war.

Didn't Raynor basically kill everyone on the Bucephalus and hold Valerian at gunpoint? Is this your idea of a master general?

How do we even know that Warfield is on the ship at that time? And even if he is, why does Warfield lose points in that scenario, but you give Duke a free pass by losing the Hyperion to Raynor? At least the Bucephalus remains in Dominion hands at the end of the day.

How does Ramboing a whole battlecruiser equate to Raynor hiding under a rock?

It's a reference to the zerg.

Then in the next two seconds he gets half the fleet blown up by his idiocy.

As opposed to Duke losing over 90% of his, whereas Warfield lost about 35%.

He flails about on his battlecruiser whilst he sustains terrible terrible damage, and Raynor has to save him.

And actually holds his own against the zerg on the ground which is more than Duke ever did. As in, maintaining a beachhead rather than losing it instantly.

You basically attributed everything good that Raynor did to Warfield.

You mean how you attribute Mengsk's defence of Korhal to Duke? Or, taking it a step further, attributing Chau Sara to Duke rather than the lieutenant? Or Tarsonis to Duke rather than the commander?

Of course Raynor plays a role too, but every time Duke's scored a victory, there's been a player character helping him also.

Warfield basically got his fortress overwhelmed in 2 seconds.

Actually, it was holding fine until Kerrigan showed up. As opposed to Duke failing to stop the zerg at all on Korhal.

Anyway, now I'm reminded of why it's best to stay out of these conversations. One can't argue with selective memories.