What Are You Reading?

[Turalyon]

Eh, don't worry. Honestly, by this point, I was expecting Gradius or Turalyon to come in yelling "wait a minute, how can you criticize the derping of the Flood/Gravemind, yet be okay with the derping of the zerg/Overmind!?" And to that I say...um...

You rang?

Luckily for the both of you, I've never played any of the Halo game (eh, so sue me) so I don't have much to say on the matter. I take it that what we know of this Gravemind so far is that the information is filtered through the lens of an in-universe perspective and not from a position of audience omniscience (the audience knows only what the in-universe characters know)?

[LestersPetZergling]

Snark aside, the Halo novels can probably be enjoyed without knowledge of the games. I say "probably" though because I could say the same of numerous pieces of such fiction, and often such fiction is what keeps my interest in the setting without ever purchasing the games they're based on. But overall, they'd probably be to your taste. Quite a few are fleshed out enough to stand on their own, quite a few have links to one another, and while there's absolute stinkers IMO (e.g. Cryptum and Primordium), there's absolute gems as well (e.g. The Fall of Reach and The Thursday War). Overall, probably worth a look

What do you think about Halo: The Flood? I think the Kilo-Five novels have a purpose somewhat as they give an explanation about the Covenant Remnants, despite it being the most absurd thing ever. And Halo: The Fall of Reach, well I sadly can't read it anymore as it has been retconned into oblivion by its' game version, Halo: The Retcon of Reach.

Hence, medias such as 40K and Aliens are grimdark. Halo isn't, especially post-H3 where humanity's gone from a grim situation where extinction was a real threat to a situation where they're the top dogs and the galaxy's their oyster.

Aliens isn't grim-dark. Alien 3 and Resurrection basically just kamikaze the franchise into a supernova. You know, after Alien, Ripley is all traumatized about the Alien and such... And then, she finally confronts her fears and defeats the Alien Queen, rescues Newt, etc. In Alien 3 that all gets wiped away and she is doomed to a pointless grim-dark death. Then in Resurrection her 'sacrifice' is completely wasted when the military recreates aliens.

Okay, it's a bit ironic. But to give you an analogy, in Terminator 2 James Cameron has this motif of the future not being set in stone and changeable. Then it all got wasted in Terminator 3. Just like how Cameron had Ripley triumph in Aliens then basically it all went to waste.

In Halo it wasn't grim-dark, you are right. Halo: Combat Evolved? We save the galaxy, wipe out the Flood on the ring and blow up a whole Covenant armada. Then a bit after the game ends, with a few Spartans and marines a gigantic Covenant fleet is wiped out, saving Earth. You call that grim-dark? Halo 2, we annhiliate the attacking Covenant fleet. We defeat the Covenant on Earth, they retreat. We kill one of their three leaders, then the Covenant is torn apart and they fight each other.

Reach is grim-dark, especially because we all know how Reach turned out. But even though the whole planet falls and Noble 6 dies, it turns out that your actions led to the Covenant being defeated. Post Halo-3, it just turns into a joke I have to say, with the Covenant Remnant bullshit. Really, now? Did 343 Industries play Halo 2, where the Covenant tried to exterminate the Elites? Were these Elites on vacation? Didn't they know that Humans are Forerunners (I don't care about the Halo 4 retcon of them being Forerunner)... 343 just seems to be retconning stuff to make it darker.

All of this is possible, but "possible" is the key word. If new evidence comes to light, then I'll reconsider it. But it just feels so far that the Precursors seem to be unable to make up their mind as to what their goals are, and I'm left asking questions about the Flood in the original trilogy. Questions that didn't exist back then and IMO, didn't need to.

Reclaimer Trilogy basically just retconned the entire Halo series.

You rang?

Luckily for the both of you, I've never played any of the Halo game (eh, so sue me) so I don't have much to say on the matter. I take it that what we know of this Gravemind so far is that the information is filtered through the lens of an in-universe perspective and not from a position of audience omniscience (the audience knows only what the in-universe characters know)?

Yes, and we especially don't have omniscient manuals or a Flood campaign to get information.

I am quite sure that the Gravemind is the same Gravemind from the Forerunner war, and I am curious to see how that is achieved. Maybe Flood infection-forms contain a large amount of information, allowing the old Gravemind to transmit data to the Infection Forms, then when a new Gravemind is created, the Infection Forms transmit information to the new Gravemind.

[Hawki]

You rang?

Yeah. Didn't expect an answer though.

I take it that what we know of this Gravemind so far is that the information is filtered through the lens of an in-universe perspective and not from a position of audience omniscience (the audience knows only what the in-universe characters know)?

Pretty much, bar the encyclopedias and the like.

What do you think about Halo: The Flood?

In a word..."decent."

It's a "decent" that I feel deserves clarification however, because I have to consider the task Dietz had. Novelize a FPS. I admit, I've done plenty of novelizations but never a FPS, but I can imagine it would be a nightmarish task. In a limited period of time, the author has to cover a certain ammount of material, based on continuous action that wouldn't translate well into written form (e.g. as enjoyable as shooting aliens is, the narrative is often segregated from the action), striking a balance between having that action, and not bogging down the narrative with it. If anything, I think Dietz made the right call by having secondary stories, because the type of gameplay in Combat Evolved isn't condusive to novel form. And as far as FPS novelizations go, it's far better than, say, Knee Deep in the Dead (novelization of Doom) which is basically the entire game and all its 'story' in novel form.

So, is The Flood particuarly good? Nothing to write home about. But for what it is, and for what it was based on, I'd say Dietz did a good job. Certainly much better than many of the other works of his I've read.

I think the Kilo-Five novels have a purpose somewhat as they give an explanation about the Covenant Remnants, despite it being the most absurd thing ever.

Why is that absurd? While I feel it would have been better to name the remnants anything but "the Covenant," I appreciate the concept.

And Halo: The Fall of Reach, well I sadly can't read it anymore as it has been retconned into oblivion by its' game version, Halo: The Retcon of Reach.

I can't be bummed by that. We have a game that contradicts EU elements, and then EU elements (Halsey's journal and the data drops) smooth things over. It's technically a retcon, but it was handled well IMO, and certainly the notion of Reach falling over time works far better than confining the game to a far shorter period of time.

Aliens isn't grim-dark.

Actually, I'd argue that it is. It fits the definition - circumstances are constantly grim, in that the xenomorphs will always exist, the yautja will never stop hunting humans, and Weyland-Yutani always exists in its own timeframe. It falls, but by the actions of the plot, rather than characters. At best, characters in the setting can hope to survive, rather than change the status quo for the better.

Alien 3 and Resurrection basically just kamikaze the franchise into a supernova. You know, after Alien, Ripley is all traumatized about the Alien and such... And then, she finally confronts her fears and defeats the Alien Queen, rescues Newt, etc. In Alien 3 that all gets wiped away and she is doomed to a pointless grim-dark death.

If there's one thing that's going to get me garotted it's probably this but I'll say it anyway...I like Alien 3.

Now before the wire reaches my skin, I'll say I don't consider it as good as the first two films, but but it's far better than the likes of Resurrection and Prometheus. Everything you say is true in a sense - Ripley saving Newt means nothing bar granting her a more peaceful death than what she might have had via the xenomorphs. Ripley's efforts for her own part are for naught as well - she couldn't save Hicks, or Bishop, or Clemens, or even herself.

And yet, that's what I like about the film in a way, in that it doesn't hold back the punches. The universe doesn't care that Ripley had overcome her PTSD and formed a bond with Newt, Hicks, and Bishop. The xenomorph doesn't care that Clemens just gave Ripley his full backstory right before he died. Nor does it care that it's made her efforts naught, or that Aaron has a family waiting for him, or anything that humans value. The alien is truly...well, alien. And the universe is cold and cruel, and grants no favours. Alien 3 is to the Aliens series what the Red Wedding is to A Song of Ice and Fire. A reminder that the world doesn't always conform to story expectations.

Movie Defence Force does a far better job of explaining it than me (source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHbBvuo4Yak), and I admit, I've only seen the extended edition. Film Brain is another Internet reviewer who gave the film its blessings. But overall, I like Alien 3. I get why other people dislike it, but for what it is, and what it does, I think it does it well. And of course, the prop work is excellent.

Then in Resurrection her 'sacrifice' is completely wasted when the military recreates aliens.

Xenomorphs were still around post-A3. If anything, why the USM has to use Ripley at all is a plothole. But that's comparatively minor - while I like Alien 3, Resurrection is a film that I don't.

But to give you an analogy, in Terminator 2 James Cameron has this motif of the future not being set in stone and changeable. Then it all got wasted in Terminator 3.

That I agree with. And before I'm accused of double-standards, I'll put it this way - if T3 had ended with Judgement Day occurring, I could take that. What really gets to me about T3 though (among other things) is that it's basically the anti-T1/2. We've gone from "no fate" to "fate is inevitable." It's as if the writers didn't get the themes of the previous films, or wanted to counter them.

Really, now? Did 343 Industries play Halo 2, where the Covenant tried to exterminate the Elites? Were these Elites on vacation? Didn't they know that Humans are Forerunners (I don't care about the Halo 4 retcon of them being Forerunner)... 343 just seems to be retconning stuff to make it darker.

Actually, it was Bungie who carried out the Forerunners aren't humans retcon, and it shows. Halo 3 treats them like they're the same, while the Iris viral campaign and terminals make it clear that they're separate. While I'm not fond of how 343 has put humanity on a pedastal in the setting, or how no distinction is made between the "old" and "new" Covenant, I can't blame them for a retcon Bungie itself carried out.

And technically it's a retcon that only occurred during development, rather than retconning stuff that was in the story/lore itself prior to H3, which is where two "proofs" are presented and up until Bungie clarified things, we were left wondering which account was true. It's not so much a retcon as rather two sets of information being presented at the same time.

I am quite sure that the Gravemind is the same Gravemind from the Forerunner war, and I am curious to see how that is achieved. Maybe Flood infection-forms contain a large amount of information, allowing the old Gravemind to transmit data to the Infection Forms, then when a new Gravemind is created, the Infection Forms transmit information to the new Gravemind.

No, it isn't. It shares the memories, but it's just one Gravemind of many. The Primordial and all the other Graveminds were wiped out when the Halos activated.

[LestersPetZergling]

And as far as FPS novelizations go, it's far better than, say, Knee Deep in the Dead (novelization of Doom) which is basically the entire game and all its 'story' in novel form.

It should of been from the perspective of Zamamee, Foehammer, Lieutenant McKay or another character. The non-game novelization parts had promise.

Maybe Jenkins, maybe Chips Dubbo or Sergeant Stacker. It was never explained how Dubbo and Stacker survived. Also, maybe Lovik -- when you escape the Flood containment facility just before the end of 343 Guilty Spark, he's the guy that says "Sir! Thank god you're here!" and also the guy that talks on the comms to Johnson and Keyes during Jenkins' helmet cut-scene.

Certainly much better than many of the other works of his I've read.

You said that a cereal-eating ninja made for a good antagonist, and that was Dietz' work.

Why is that absurd? While I feel it would have been better to name the remnants anything but "the Covenant," I appreciate the concept.

Okay, wait. I think I know why humans got retconned from Forerunners into enemies of the Forerunners. Its' so the Covenant could have an excuse to fight humans. If they were the gods they were worshipping, well, you'd have to have the Flood in Halo 4... No but really wait, how could there be so many Covenant loyalist ships? Aren't Sangheili unable to even farm post-Covenant? And didn't pretty much all their fleet except Shadow of Intent go down at the Ark?

And even more, there is eye-witness Sangheili to CONFIRM that humans are Forerunners, so the 'Covenant loyalists' make no sense. They should have been Brutes. And why do the Loyalists believe the Great Journey, still?

she couldn't save Hicks

He canonically survives, and gets rescued by his fellow marines. Guess game wasn't over man...

But like I said, Alien and Aliens, she's optimistic and survives with another survivor/several, but in Alien 3 and Resurrection? Nope! You lose! Just like what happened to Cameron's other major franchise, Terminator (Ridley Scott did Alien 1, yes).

Ripley is one person yet solos the Alien hive and kills the Queen. How is that grim-dark? In 40k one Space Marine would get killed in the hive alone.

Halo 3 treats them like they're the same, while the Iris viral campaign and terminals

I know the Librarian observes the primitive humans on Earth in the terminals. But all the evidence in-game and in Halo: Contact Harvest suggests otherwise...

"You ARE Forerunner!"

How ridiculous that it turns out that the Prophets and Humans were part of an alliance and fought the Forerunners ... but they get called Forerunners?

No, it isn't. It shares the memories, but it's just one Gravemind of many. The Primordial and all the other Graveminds were wiped out when the Halos activated.

Well what I mean that since the Flood are a collective entity (and the Gravemind can speak through them), maybe all 'Flood' are the same consciousness. So maybe the Flood on Installation 05 that formed the new Gravemind were the 'Old' Gravemind, in a very dumb, primitive state, just like a few Geth compared to the whole collective. Do you know what I mean? The new Gravemind appears to act like it was around during the Forerunner war.

e.g. say that all Zerg are one thing (at least under the Overmind's control), the Overmind, collectively. When the Overmind dies, say that the Cerebrates merge into a new Overmind, and since that the Overmind was the Cerebrates, does that mean that the new Overmind is the old Overmind?

[TheEconomist]

The longest, most interesting discussions always involve things I've never read.

*sigh*

Gonna hafta make a big long list of the books I've read, find one someone has read, and then latch on to that

[Hawki]

It should of been from the perspective of Zamamee, Foehammer, Lieutenant McKay or another character. The non-game novelization parts had promise.

Maybe Jenkins, maybe Chips Dubbo or Sergeant Stacker. It was never explained how Dubbo and Stacker survived. Also, maybe Lovik -- when you escape the Flood containment facility just before the end of 343 Guilty Spark, he's the guy that says "Sir! Thank god you're here!" and also the guy that talks on the comms to Johnson and Keyes during Jenkins' helmet cut-scene.

I kinda agree, but I doubt it would have been an option. The Flood is to promote Combat Evolved. Combat Evolved had you playing as John-117. The Flood had John on the cover. Ergo, I think it was a requirement from a marketing standpoint that John feature prominantly.

I'm not disagreeing that the scenario you suggested could have made for better reading, but I doubt it was an option Dietz had.

You said that a cereal-eating ninja made for a good antagonist, and that was Dietz' work.

I said Kai Leng made for a servicable antagonist, and that stems from Mass Effect 3. In ME3, the Reapers themselves are the main antagonists. Kai Leng is a servant of them. Ergo, he doesn't need to be fleshed out or complex in the same way Saren was.

Deception however, is another story. A terribly written story where Kai Leng eating cereal is just part of what makes it so terrible. So terrible in fact that Bioware promised us a corrected version that'll likely never come to fruition, and instead likely wants to make us forget all about it. Oh, and I kinda suspect that Deception killed the Mass Effect novel line given that since then every piece of written Mass Effect EU has been a comic (nothing against comics, but I prefer novels).

Okay, wait. I think I know why humans got retconned from Forerunners into enemies of the Forerunners. Its' so the Covenant could have an excuse to fight humans.

Except Bungie made that retcon itself, and it's not even a retcon from an in-universe perspective. Why would Bungie make a retcon for 343's behalf in Halo 3 when at that stage it owned the IP and, as far as I know, there was no talk of giving it to Microsoft at the time?

No but really wait, how could there be so many Covenant loyalist ships? Aren't Sangheili unable to even farm post-Covenant? And didn't pretty much all their fleet except Shadow of Intent go down at the Ark?

Because the plot says so.

And even more, there is eye-witness Sangheili to CONFIRM that humans are Forerunners,

Where?

so the 'Covenant loyalists' make no sense. They should have been Brutes. And why do the Loyalists believe the Great Journey, still?

Few pointers:

-Jul's motivations are anti-human expansion and revenge for Raia, not out of any great belief. His followers follow for religious reasons.

-There are/were jiralhanae in his faction going by Spartan Assault. Dunno where they were in Halo 4, but meh.

-Loyalists still believe in the Great Journey for the same reasons some people still believe Earth is only a few thousand years old, that evolution doesn't exist, and that blowing people up is the fast-track to Heaven. It's because their religion says so, and no amount of proof is going to convince them otherwise. If information contradicts their religion, obviously the information must be wrong.

Same with the Covenant. The Servants of Abiding Truth, Jul's faction, not every Covie was on Delta Halo or the Ark, they've only got people's word for it that the Great Journey was a lie. When you believe something for thousands of years, you're not going to give it up easily.

So, I'll clarify - I don't have a problem with Jul's faction, or the Servants of Abiding Truth, or the storyline development that not every sangheili or other alien was willing to kiss and make up with humanity and abandon their faith. I just feel Halo 4 could have handled it better, and it could have been done so by not treating Jul's forces as the same Covenant, let alone actually naming them Covenant as if nothing had happened.

He canonically survives, and gets rescued by his fellow marines. Guess game wasn't over man...

Ah yes, Colonial Marines. And Hicks. A case where as fun as it was to play alongside him, I have to admit his survival was, in a word, stupid!.

But yes, Hicks survives, and I accept that. But in the scope of Alien 3, Ripley couldn't save him, and as far as we knew at the time, he was dead.

But like I said, Alien and Aliens, she's optimistic and survives with another survivor/several, but in Alien 3 and Resurrection? Nope! You lose!

Actually she wins in Resurrection, though I'm kinda loathe to bring that in. The Ripley in that is Ripley-8, not Ellen Ripley. They may look the same, but are not the same character, biologically or storywise.

Ripley is one person yet solos the Alien hive and kills the Queen. How is that grim-dark? In 40k one Space Marine would get killed in the hive alone.

The act alone isn't necessarily grimdark, but the setting as a whole is for the reasons I described. And a single Space Marine could have probably taken the queen out too along with every xenomorph before detonation.

But all the evidence in-game and in Halo: Contact Harvest suggests otherwise...

"You ARE Forerunner!"

Actually Contact Harvest was more a way of reconciling the issue, of the Covenant believing that Reclaimer=Forerunner, whilst we in the audience have the benefit of understanding that isn't the case. Spark's declaration of "you are Forerunner" is still a sore thumb (and in both H3 and 4, John's reaction seems to be "huh, okay" rather than questioning either Spark or the Librarian), but I suppose at this point we have to accept that Spark is an unreliable narrator. Or if you want to wriggle out of things, his declaration means that "you Reclaimers have come far enough to be counted as Forerunners."

Iffy I know, but what's done is done.

Well what I mean that since the Flood are a collective entity (and the Gravemind can speak through them), maybe all 'Flood' are the same consciousness. So maybe the Flood on Installation 05 that formed the new Gravemind were the 'Old' Gravemind, in a very dumb, primitive state, just like a few Geth compared to the whole collective. Do you know what I mean? The new Gravemind appears to act like it was around during the Forerunner war.

Kinda. But at the end of the day, it's a new Gravemind. Has the old memories...and with the revelation that Precursors=Flood, its actions are called into question.

(As an aside, Quirel was right in that in Primordium, it's indeed foreshadowed that the Precursors intend to 'test' humanity in the timeframe as the games. But then I'm left wondering - if the original trilogy was the test, then why does the Gravemind never refer to it as such? And if the 'test' is yet to come in the Reclaimer Trilogy, again, what were the Flood doing back then? Is it a case where the Flood and Precursors are now separate entities? If so...well, I actually like that idea. If the Precursors are GLaDOS, the Flood are Chell - silent, deadly, and say "screw you" to testing, we're gonna do our own thing!)

Gonna hafta make a big long list of the books I've read, find one someone has read, and then latch on to that

Could always list stuff in the watching/playing threads...just saying...

[Quirel]

Dear Lord, this thread is going so fast, so furious. Not sure if I can keep up!

[LestersPetZergling]

I kinda agree, but I doubt it would have been an option. The Flood is to promote Combat Evolved. Combat Evolved had you playing as John-117. The Flood had John on the cover. Ergo, I think it was a requirement from a marketing standpoint that John feature prominantly.

I'm not disagreeing that the scenario you suggested could have made for better reading, but I doubt it was an option Dietz had.

The Flood came out 2 years after Combat Evolved. Fall of Reach came out basically at the same time. Fall of Reach didn't focus on Chief, really. More about Keyes. If you wanted to market it good, how about Sergeant Johnson or Zamamee or another Elite? The Arbiter, Half-Jaw, Sergeant Johnson or Zamamee would market quite well.

Same with the Covenant. The Servants of Abiding Truth, Jul's faction, not every Covie was on Delta Halo or the Ark, they've only got people's word for it that the Great Journey was a lie. When you believe something for thousands of years, you're not going to give it up easily.

How could they be so religious, if they weren't on High Charity, Delta Halo or a ship surrounding it?

Because the plot says so.

I couldn't help but laugh when the Arbiter was out-numbered by the pro-Covenant. What the? How in GOD'S NAME do the religious Covenant outnumber the Separatists? Especially when the Separatists wiped out the Covenant fleet that outnumbered them three-to-one and still have Shadow of Intent.

-Jul's motivations are anti-human expansion and revenge for Raia, not out of any great belief. His followers follow for religious reasons.

Yeah nice, destroy humans' planets for thirty years then bitch about them expanding.

Actually she wins in Resurrection, though I'm kinda loathe to bring that in. The Ripley in that is Ripley-8, not Ellen Ripley. They may look the same, but are not the same character, biologically or storywise.

Yeah, what's so grim-dark about the Aliens franchise? Ripley wins and all the aliens die 4/4 out of 4 times. She even survives 3/4 times! She also kills the Queen every movie it appears.

The act alone isn't necessarily grimdark, but the setting as a whole is for the reasons I described. And a single Space Marine could have probably taken the queen out too along with every xenomorph before detonation.

Ordinary woman who's job-experience is sleeping in a tube on a ship. She manages to save Hudson, Hicks et cetera... Then she goes in and solos the Hive. HOW, HOW IS THAT GRIM-DARK?!

-There are/were jiralhanae in his faction going by Spartan Assault. Dunno where they were in Halo 4, but meh.

That makes things utterly ridiculous. Did 343 Industries play Halo 2? Did they play Halo 3?

if the original trilogy was the test, then why does the Gravemind never refer to it as such?

Ret-cons. Gravemind calls John, 'child of my maker'. Sorry but you can't reconcile the four different universes of Halo (original trilogy universe; includes Fall of Reach, etc, ODST universe, Halo: Reach universe, sequel trilogy universe; includes Primordium, etc).

Where?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krKZekl_2xM

at 1:17 (ironically).

[LestersPetZergling]

Also to note... In the Halo 3 campaign, Elites say the word Reclaimer around you a lot.

[Shadow Archon]

Finally picked up Spectres and started reading.

God, Ghost was so much better.