What Are You Reading?

[Gradius]

I made it to page 183 of Firstborn, and well....all of my negativity is justified.

Looks like the definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy. :P

[TheEconomist]

Well, I'll be a Zerling's uncle. A Thomas Sowell reader. I've read several of his books and have always planned to read more. Mostly his economics books although I did read "Intellectuals and Society" because it came bundled with his book on Marxism. I also read 'The Economics and Politics of Race: An International Perspective' which sounds like basically the same thing as Ethnic America except applied internationally. It goes very in-depth about many groups living as minorities in other groups. Very interesting stuff. But, being the gambling, Economist I am, what I am most impressed by in regards to Thomas Sowell was his predictions in 1975 about what the results of welfare and government intervention would be on blacks and minorities. He was spot on to the letter but, of course, was called an Uncle Tom and what not (and still is). I never ceases to amaze me how the people who are able to predict events far into the future (thereby proving their superior knowledge) are ignored because the truth is so harsh. But, alas, such is human nature.

I could go on and on about Thomas Sowell, and I probably will, but its getting late here, I wake up at 5 am now, so it's time to sleep

[Nissa]

Well, I'll be a Zerling's uncle. A Thomas Sowell reader. I've read several of his books and have always planned to read more. Mostly his economics books although I did read "Intellectuals and Society" because it came bundled with his book on Marxism. I also read 'The Economics and Politics of Race: An International Perspective' which sounds like basically the same thing as Ethnic America except applied internationally. It goes very in-depth about many groups living as minorities in other groups. Very interesting stuff. But, being the gambling, Economist I am, what I am most impressed by in regards to Thomas Sowell was his predictions in 1975 about what the results of welfare and government intervention would be on blacks and minorities. He was spot on to the letter but, of course, was called an Uncle Tom and what not (and still is). I never ceases to amaze me how the people who are able to predict events far into the future (thereby proving their superior knowledge) are ignored because the truth is so harsh. But, alas, such is human nature.

I could go on and on about Thomas Sowell, and I probably will, but its getting late here, I wake up at 5 am now, so it's time to sleep

Well, Thomas Sowell is good. Looking at what you listed, I don't think you need to read Ethnic America if you don't want to. It came out in the early eighties, so you may have already read a more updated book.

@Gradius. Dude, man, don't even get me started. You can't say that at all. Firstborn has awful narrative, the kind that explains motivations instead of showing them, uses overly fancy words, makes the golden ratio something mystic and important, and has Protoss characters rejoicing over drawing in the dirt. They are literally celebrating as though the Xel'Naga themselves had come down and blessed them, as they scrawl pictures of themselves in sand. "This is water! This is me!" I'm not joking.

To the book's credit, it actually has a storyline. One thing does lead to another, and when the book isn't on flashbacks that make Protoss look like idiots, I actually care what happens next.

In short, the book is enjoyably stupid.

[Gradius]

Firstborn has awful narrative, the kind that explains motivations instead of showing them,

This is a pretty vague and meaningless critique. I can say that about almost any novel. I'm serious. Pick one.

uses overly fancy words

lol, like what?

makes the golden ratio something mystic and important

It is kind of important. :P

It's also not surprising that an alien race might value something like this more than humans would. I appreciate the attempt at verisimilitude.

and has Protoss characters rejoicing over drawing in the dirt. They are literally celebrating as though the Xel'Naga themselves had come down and blessed them, as they scrawl pictures of themselves in sand. "This is water! This is me!" I'm not joking.

I thought it was a nice touch. Writing has the potential to transform civilizations, and they saw that.

flashbacks that make Protoss look like idiots

I invite you to play SC2, because Firstborn doesn't come close to the stupidity the protoss have to trudge through in the actual games.

Basically, Protoss are now the comic relief of SC instead of the terrans.

To the book's credit, it actually has a storyline. One thing does lead to another, and when the book isn't on flashbacks that make Protoss look like idiots, I actually care what happens next.

In short, the book is enjoyably stupid.

See, you might enjoy it if you don't let bias get in the way.

I'm just saying, all you talked about here was how you're going to hate the book. Now, it turns out you hate the book. Raise your hand if you're surprised. Anyone? Anyone?

[Turalyon]

Sorry for derailing. Thought Eco deserved a response to his earlier statement.

It's quite possible that, since I don't directly take part in the discussions myself much anymore, that I am meshing your posts with someone else's post (such as Shadow Archon or Hawki) and confusing your intentions.

That's what I thought. I spent most of my time trying to balance out their bias that the new lore was "good". It was partly to try and give them another perspective.

However, to be clear, I'm not saying that you enjoy the lore (I can remember at least a dozen posts of you bashing the lore in a way I would), I'm saying that you talk about it, which I just don't understand.

I only discuss Sc2 in terms of it's presentation of its lore, how it's written and not really about the lore per se. I can see how they can be conceived of as being the same thing but really, that's the difference for me. The lore itself I can take it or leave it as being part of the conceit of the genre. You'd find that when people start talking about the entrenched hardcore lore aspects like the Xel'Naga cycle stuff, energy beings and all that minutiae in the EU and Sc2 (you know, the stuff that'd make even the initiated eye-roll in it actual inanity), I pretty much shut down, say "Is that so?" and leave it at that.

I enjoy the original lore and that is what I mostly talk about (eg: the Overmind as conceived originally, the vagaries of Protoss society etc.). However, I admit that I do suffer from a clear case of First Installment Wins bias. I try not to make generalisations about the new lore but I sometimes get caught out making snide remarks about it only for them to be taken seriously. I don't generally pile on the hate like most "haters". I prefer to make light of it, that way, I can at least get some modicum of enjoyment out of it.

Also, the difference between now and then is that the original did not really need to lean so heavily on the lore to tell a capable and compelling story whereas everything in later iterations has steadily built up this reliance on lore gimmickry in order to sell this compulsion. The open nature of the lore in the original Sc is what still keeps me talking about it even after more than a decade.

Clearly, you recognize it is awful, so why put yourself through it?

I'm here to offer an opinion. I don't expect anything else beyond others offering their opinions and then comparing them. I'm also looking for a "defenders" opinion that is as well considered, reasoned and defensible as the "hater's" arguments. It's actually a pretty low investment for me at any rate such that I down feel like I'm putting myself through anything.

[TheEconomist]

Basically, Protoss are now the comic relief of SC instead of the terrans.

This could not be more true. I used to be in awe of the awesome mysteries of the Protoss. Now, I just shake my head. Even when the Protoss were being dumb, like with Aldaris, there was reasoning, even if extreme hard-headedness, behind. Now it's all incompetence. I used to always joke that, if the game were realistic, the Protoss would have annihilated everyone because of their technology and the superiority that implies. Blizzard seemed to have taken that to heart. Instead of holding them back by their own stubborness or other more meaningful developments, they just decided to make them incompetent. I mean, seriously, what in the fuck was with that Protoss ship infiltration mission in HotS. If that's all it takes to take Protoss out then without the obligatory deus ex machina which I'm sure will come just in the nick of time, they're fucked.

I'm just saying, all you talked about here was how you're going to hate the book. Now, it turns out you hate the book. Raise your hand if you're surprised. Anyone? Anyone?

I am shocked, shocked to find that negativity is going on in here.




As for the rest, I'm going to have to side with Gradius here. It does seem like your problems with the book are coming from the perspective of someone looking for problems. I actually enjoyed the dig portions, the golden mean connections, and the flashbacks. The golden mean ratio thing in particular I don't understand. The Protoss are "religious" so I'm sure the Xel'Naga had certain "religious" qualities to them as well (you know, whole maker/creation relationship, although I'm not going to bother to think about what the retcons have changed about that). And since pretty much all religions can be broken down into attaching mystical attributes to what would otherwise be fairly mundane or ordinary (meditation/prayer). The golden mean is something found through out nature and it would mae sense that the architects of species would know of and cherish it since nature itself cherishes it and the Xel'Naga are attempting to surpass nature.

Either way, I think things like that just show how much better StarCraft 2 would have been if it were a bit more like DTS. You get NOTHING with even that much thought put into it in StarCraft 2. Little things like that that make you think about the larger picture of life are what makes complex sci fi great. StarCraft used to have it, but it was all retconned for some stupid shit.

[Nissa]

Y'all are mean. *waaah*

Nah, but seriously, it's pretty meh. I did finish it last night, and the ending is much better than the beginning and middle. Though it was pretty stupid that humans, having no nerve cords, can experience the Khala. After all, that's why the DT cut theirs off, right?

If there's an explanation for that in the later books, don't tell me. I don't want to be spoiled.

This is a pretty vague and meaningless critique. I can say that about almost any novel. I'm serious. Pick one.

No, it's not. It's actually very specific. I guess I could have made my point a little more clear, but I'm saving any hard critique for it from my blog. Basically what I was saying is that this book is a huge violator of the term "show, don't tell." For example, Rosemary's toughness is repeated over and over again by the general narrative -- not by dialogue, or by actions, but by the writer putting on the page something like "she was very, very deadly".

lol, like what?

Well, keep in mind I don't necessarily mean forty dollar words (except in a couple of cases), but rather that Golden tries way too hard to be fancy and elaborate, making everything feel melodramatic. Like the entire prologue, for example, is so filled with purple prose that there's literally no real way of know what any of it means. It could have been cut from the book entirely.

I'll post a link to my blog later if you really want to see when I get into the narrative. All will become clear then, and it's difficult to explain my point without examples.

...I just realized that this book goes nuts on the golden ratio, and the author's last name is Golden. Coincidence?

It is kind of important. :P

It's also not surprising that an alien race might value something like this more than humans would. I appreciate the attempt at verisimilitude.

Um, no. I mean, sure, if it were simply the password to open that door in the crystal structure, that would be fine. A bit too mystic for something as simple as math, but fine. But that everything in the universe corresponds to the Fibonacci sequence, and that's the most beautiful thing ever? They make it the secret of the universe, when really there's a lot in nature that doesn't conform to the golden ratio. It feels really stupid that someone would flip out about math that way, and it makes the Khala feel overly simplistic.

Again, if this gets explained later, don't spoil it for me. I just think it's really dumb that all life is explained by a sequence of numbers.

I thought it was a nice touch. Writing has the potential to transform civilizations, and they saw that.

You're on crack, you know that?

For one, writing doesn't equal drawing oneself in the dirt. For another, it was really creepy that one would be "piss yourself" excited over a simple drawing. The Protoss would have to be complete idiots not to know that it's possible to draw, unless the Xel'Naga created their "perfect race" to be stupid. They are literally freaking out over something a five year old can do.

I invite you to play SC2, because Firstborn doesn't come close to the stupidity the protoss have to trudge through in the actual games.

Basically, Protoss are now the comic relief of SC instead of the terrans.

*throws a yellow flag* Personal foul, offense! You can't defend a book by saying something else is dumber than it. There are a lot of books dumber than Firstborn, but that doesn't mean Firstborn gets a pass. Yes, the games are dumb, but that doesn't give anything else a right to be. That's like saying "oh, SC2 was dumb, so we can get away with making a spin-off sequel game that's equally dumb."

And come on, making any race comic relief is too silly for serious science fiction. And it's arguable that the Terrans were actually comic relief, besides a few cutscenes in original Starcraft that had little to do with the overall plot. Basically, some of the Terrans were, not all.

See, you might enjoy it if you don't let bias get in the way.

I'm just saying, all you talked about here was how you're going to hate the book. Now, it turns out you hate the book. Raise your hand if you're surprised. Anyone? Anyone?

It wasn't bias. It was just a bad impression, made by the other books, knowledge of Blizzard slipping, and my own intuition. Golden had every opportunity to change my mind, and she did a good job at the end of the book. Also, keep in mind that pointing out errors doesn't mean I didn't enjoy a book, or that I thought this was the worst book ever. In short, I don't hate the book.

[Gradius]

No, it's not. It's actually very specific. I guess I could have made my point a little more clear, but I'm saving any hard critique for it from my blog. Basically what I was saying is that this book is a huge violator of the term "show, don't tell." For example, Rosemary's toughness is repeated over and over again by the general narrative -- not by dialogue, or by actions, but by the writer putting on the page something like "she was very, very deadly".

I don't think you really understand "show, don't tell". It's a guideline and writing choice, not some infallible law that turns a book into pure shit if it's broken. Telling can be useful, and even necessary at times. Really, it's only a problem when you get the "As you know Johnson" dialogs of people repeating what they already know for the audiences' benefit. But that's not what you see in the DT Saga; you see characters remark on things from their own perspective, and every single novel does that. Take the Nova book that you love for example; almost every other passage has the author telling us how strong Nova is or how her life went to shit. Pick another novel. I'll be happy to point out how it violated this mantra.

Well, keep in mind I don't necessarily mean forty dollar words (except in a couple of cases), but rather that Golden tries way too hard to be fancy and elaborate, making everything feel melodramatic. Like the entire prologue, for example, is so filled with purple prose that there's literally no real way of know what any of it means. It could have been cut from the book entirely.

I'll post a link to my blog later if you really want to see when I get into the narrative. All will become clear then, and it's difficult to explain my point without examples.

That's true. But if you want to fire a writer for using colorful and empty jargon, then fire whoever wrote Zeratul's monologue in SC1:

"I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities.."

Negative suns? What the hell does that even mean? Personally, I enjoy it in both cases. One of the few ways to give flavor to an unknowable and enigmatic superior alien race. But that's just me.

Um, no. I mean, sure, if it were simply the password to open that door in the crystal structure, that would be fine. A bit too mystic for something as simple as math, but fine. But that everything in the universe corresponds to the Fibonacci sequence, and that's the most beautiful thing ever? They make it the secret of the universe, when really there's a lot in nature that doesn't conform to the golden ratio. It feels really stupid that someone would flip out about math that way, and it makes the Khala feel overly simplistic.

Again, if this gets explained later, don't spoil it for me. I just think it's really dumb that all life is explained by a sequence of numbers.

Yeah....I'm pretty sure you might be exaggerating things a bit here.

You're on crack, you know that?

For one, writing doesn't equal drawing oneself in the dirt. For another, it was really creepy that one would be "piss yourself" excited over a simple drawing. The Protoss would have to be complete idiots not to know that it's possible to draw, unless the Xel'Naga created their "perfect race" to be stupid. They are literally freaking out over something a five year old can do.

The protoss are in the middle of a cataclysmic war with cavemen levels of technology where entire generations get slaughtered wholesale. So no, it's clearly not obvious to them that they can draw.

Modern humans have existed for 200000+ years. The earliest caveman drawings are 30000 years old. Are humans idiots by definition as well?

For another, it was really creepy that one would be "piss yourself" excited over a simple drawing.

What can I say. I got "enthusiastic" or "eager" out of the book not "piss yourself excited". I think this is another case of you projecting your pre-conceived biases onto the book.

*throws a yellow flag* Personal foul, offense! You can't defend a book by saying something else is dumber than it. There are a lot of books dumber than Firstborn, but that doesn't mean Firstborn gets a pass. Yes, the games are dumb, but that doesn't give anything else a right to be. That's like saying "oh, SC2 was dumb, so we can get away with making a spin-off sequel game that's equally dumb."

The point is that your evidence has been pretty lacking. I mean, your argument basically boils down to "the protoss figured out drawing/writing. Therefore they are idiots." That makes no sense. You get that this was a flashback to when the protoss were at a stone age level, yes?

And honestly, yes, you do kind of have to consider the medium here. EU material for SC isn't exactly known for its literary excellence, and nothing will ever be as bad as Shadow of the Xel'Naga. I guess I'm saying that my standards have been sufficiently lowered.

[Nissa]

Ah, your standards are lower. That explains a lot.

Nah, the human race isn't that old. That concludes my taking of the bait.

Look, dude, the narrative really is bad at the beginning, particularly the prologue. At the ending it gets better, because it's more present tense, more oriented towards what is happening than overexplaining things. Look, if you like the plot so much the narrative doesn't bother you, that's cool. But you can't tell me that the prologue was anything other than purple prose, useless to the overall story.

[Gradius]

Ah, your standards are lower. That explains a lot.

Yeah can't you tell? I'm reading SC novels like SCG Nova. :P

Nah, the human race isn't that old. That concludes my taking of the bait.

Uh huh... :$

Look, dude, the narrative really is bad at the beginning, particularly the prologue. At the ending it gets better, because it's more present tense, more oriented towards what is happening than overexplaining things. Look, if you like the plot so much the narrative doesn't bother you, that's cool. But you can't tell me that the prologue was anything other than purple prose, useless to the overall story.

So was Zeratul's monologue in SC1. I'm not sure you actually understand the difference between a bad story and an aesthetic choice:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleProse

"Bear in mind that Tropes Are Tools. Some of the examples below are intentional: the Purple Prose is a stylistic choice, a comedic turn or in aid of characterisation."