What Are You Reading?

[Gradius]

The Expanse

I have a feeling that The Expanse might go the same way as Wheel of Time for me. I found the first 2 WoT books to be "okay." I found the first Expanse book to be "okay." Having started it after Earth Unaware, while it gets points for worldbuilding, it spends far too much time on said worldbuilding on what I find to be a drab setting and bland characters. So whatever promise the protomolecule and the gateway that opens up on the edge of the system holds, I find myself unable to care enough to go straight to book 2. It doesn't help that Holden never learns from his mistakes, and Miller's infatuation with Julie isn't endearing in the slightest.

The notion of a TV show does hold some promise though, especially as I could see it as "Firefly 2.0." Holden and his crew = Serenity, Inner Planets = Alliance, OPA = Browncoats (sort of), alien stuff equals...stuff...I dunno. Go figure. Figure that a TV show would have less time to spend on worldbuilding and have to focus more on character, so that's another plus for me.

I was thinking movie instead of TV show. Worldbuilding is an investment. I just got done with book 1, and I'm willing to go further for more reward. Unfortunately, the characters leave much to be desired. You're right, Holden doesn't learn from his mistakes. Miller is alright though.

The setting is great IMO. It's nice to have a realistic sci-fi.

The frell? Take that back ya son of a hazmot or I'll kick ya in the nivonks!"

...yeah, I've been watching Farscape over the past year, which might well have established itself as one of my favourite sci-fi TV series. And the language, just like in StarCraft, is part of the appeal for me.

Yes! Another farscape addict!

Fine, slang isn't always bad in sci-fi, but most of the time it sounds like pure dren and makes me wonder what the hezmana I'm watching.

[Hawki]

I was thinking movie instead of TV show.

I guess I could see a movie working too. Course I'm left to wonder - if a TV show/movie were to be made, how much time would Abraham and Franck have to put into it as opposed to the books? Game of Thrones might be a successful TV series for instance, but I'm still waiting for book 6...just saying...

Worldbuilding is an investment. I just got done with book 1, and I'm willing to go further for more reward. Unfortunately, the characters leave much to be desired. You're right, Holden doesn't learn from his mistakes. Miller is alright though.

The setting is great IMO. It's nice to have a realistic sci-fi.

Worldbuilding can be an investment on its own...sometimes. Dune is an example of doing worldbuilding right IMO, in that the reader is introduced to the setting at the same rate as the protagonists, as the characters of House Artides are introduced to Arrakis, the reader learns along with them. That it all adds up to an interesting world with interesting creatures and an interesting human culture, it makes the investment worthwhile. Off the top of my head, Harry Potter is another example (introduced to the Wizarding World at the same rate Harry is).

Course The Expanse isn't going to have the same luxury given that its story is based on a status quo that's long since been established, and the foundation of its plot is built around the unravelling of said status quo, but...I dunno. I think some of it might have to do with that there was little sense of the unknown for me in it. The Sol system is well defined and fleshed out, but...I hesitate to call that a negative, and by all rights it should be a positive, but again, I'm reminded of Earth Unaware. It had its own equivalent Belter community in the Kuiper belt that left more to the imagination, so I ended up preferring it to Expanse's approach of going into all the detail. Likewise, the Expanse has a vague promise of something beyond Sol (aliens that sent the protomolecule for...some reason...stay tuned readers) whereas EU made the threat discernable - course it's part 1 of 3, but at least we actually got to see formics and appreciate the stakes rather than recieve vague promises of possible future encounters. Plus, harkening back to the Dune analogy, more of the worldbuilding was based around immediate circumstances to the characters, hence it was easier to get invested in it.

As for "great to have real sci-fi..." eh, it varies. It can work for me personally (e.g. Gravity), but using that as an example, the realism was a tool for the actions and interactions of the characters and the context rather than, say, Space Odyssey, where to me it often felt like realism for realism's sake (e.g. the first space scene on the way to the space station - it may be realistic with its lack of gravity and the difficulties of moving around, but it doesn't add anything to character development). I guess I tend to drift towards the unrealisitc side because that way the setting is there to serve the plot rather than the plot being bound to the setting and all the rules of reality as we know them (gravity, relativity, etc.) I can take it on faith in Farscape for instance that leviathans can starburst through a kind of alternate dimension without frying themselves and their passengers, and that some equivalent of inertial dampeners are at work without having to go through the process of explaining all the details of the real world that would render such trips unlikely to happen to say the least.

[TheEconomist]

Unfortunately, the characters leave much to be desired.

The characters get a huge buff in book two and three. Book two's characters are in the thick of both the military and political conflict. There's no side detective like story, which, yeah, is a bit awkward in a space opera. Book three's characters are much more interesting in terms of their representations of human nature and, well, how that's changed given certain events in the series. All in all, book two and three's characters are far more complex and interesting than the ones in book one. By a long shot. Holden is still there, but he's no longer the main character and goes through a lot of changes. I certainly liked him better by then.

It doesn't help that Holden never learns from his mistakes

If it helps, he absolutely despises himself later in the series for these same reasons He changes a lot by book three.

Miller's infatuation with Julie isn't endearing in the slightest.

There's a very specific reason for this infatuation that is beyond his control. I had thought it was explained in book one, but perhaps it was book two. Either way, it's painfully obvious by book three. I don't want to spoil it but you'd probably feel better about this after reading book two or three.

I was thinking movie instead of TV show.

I've always felt that Leviathan Wakes would've made a great movie. Its Hollywood action scenes and AAA-rated video game set pieces scream for a movie. After reading book two and three though, I'm good with a TV show, especially given the draught of good sci fi shows recently. I hear the writers for the this TV show are great and some of the best in the industry. Sounds like blatant hyping to me though.

hereas EU made the threat discernable - course it's part 1 of 3

It's actually part one of six to ten But, the protomolecule gets a lot more airtime in book three regardless. It's intentions and purposes are mostly explained but then the scope of the series is increased exponentially by that knowledge.


In the end though, I do feel a bit disappointed with the series. When I first started reading it, it was going to be a trilogy, and the entire story arc would be wrapped up by book three. From the perspective of someone currently waiting for book four and wishing there'd been more of a certain something in book three, that would've been ideal. The first book, however, was such a success that they immediately picked it up for a show. That'll probably be a good thing later since Ty Franck is actually George R.R. Martin's "helper" in keeping the lore of ASOIAF consistent (Metzen should take note) and probably has connections in the show business from working so much with the writers for Game of Thrones.

The series was changed from a trilogy into a six book series that the author has said may be expanded to ten books. You now, so it is able to encompass the average six season time frame but then is able to expand to ten novels if it REALLY needs to. This is pretty clear to see towards the end of book three. It's builds up to a point where all is said to be revealed but when that door to knowledge is opened all you find is a troll faced Toadstool telling you the princess is in another castle. I doubt it'll be carried past book four, but damn, I just read two massive books waiting for that reveal and I got nothing. Even book two, which is better than book one by the general consensus, seems to have this problem as well a bit since very little in terms of the main story arc is progressed it was a bit disappointing. Don't get me wrong, the factions, new characters, and worldbuilding is taken into over drive, but its not until book three that something new happens with the protomolecule. So, in a way, I can tell that what book two was going to be was stretched out to be book two and three. Therefore, I full expect book four to start living up to its promise. Don't take this as a negative though. My complaints stem from someone wanting to learn more about specifics parts of the story. The way the world is expanded is done very well and, from what I can tell from some posts, you'd both enjoy it more than I did.

Don't judge the series like the Wheel of Time though. It's not even close to being the same thing. From what I've read of the first two books and heard from hundreds of people about the series, is that Wheel of Time is very much the same kind of story the whole way through (just goes a full retarded around the sixth book). The Expanse, however, each novel is meant to be very different. Book two is a very politically driven will read a bit like an epic fantasy novel. There's no side detective stories or anything like that. The side stories are either deep into the thick of the political conflict or the military conflict. Book three is a lot more cerebral and getting towards being a space opera like Revelation Space or something. The book is called Abaddon's Gate so that should give you a hint. Book one, ironically, came from a role playing campaign the two authors made (Corey is two authors by the way, Daniel Abraham being one of them) and was made to be something like a video game (detective story, ground and space battles) and to have a bit of everything. It is the stated intention of the authors for the each of the books to have a very different feel and to be much more epic than the last. And, to me, despite the last minute changes that stick out like a sore thumb, that is EXACTLY what the series does. So, unlike most series where you can tell whether or not its for you by the end of the first book, this series is meant to be different from book to book and to encompass exponentially more of the universe with each installment, instead of it all being more of the same. By book three, the world will feel very much different than it did in book one. Also, the person who wrote the Miller chapters of the first book is named Ty Franck and this was actually his first novel. An excellent debut, but he does get better in the next two.

Despite this, if you're really that intent on stopping the series (for now) then I could help you find another series. Revelation Space is the obvious first choice unless you really need characters to be a focus. Revelation Space is almost completely about the the larger conflict and larger ideas. The characters are secondary and mostly serve simply as a perspective to see these conflicts. Not much in the way of character development for the sake of character development. If you need something more well-rounded, I can personally recommend Pandora' Star. I haven't finished it yet (It's fucking massive) but I'm getting close and it could just be the perfect thing you need. It's got all of the space opera goodness of, say, Mass Effect and Revelation Space, even if it much more grounded in reality, but its also got a large cast of characters that get a lot of word time.

I find to be a drab setting and bland characters.

I swear, I'll never understand how you can bash almost any story but then praise WoL in any capacity. But, that's an old discussion.

Lastly, there's something I've been needing to say. I think I might've caused a bit of a problem with my wording of what The Expanse is. I hastily wrote that it was StarCraft done right. I don't disagree with that (and that becomes more obvious in book two) but I fear that what I hated about StarCraft is a bit different than what other people hated. In StarCraft 2, what I hated the most was the "drab setting and bland characters, as Hawki puts it, and the stupid, childish plot lines. As well as the demonsterization of Zerg into something that is not at all terrifyin. I feel that the Expanse series is a much better job at the kind of stories that are in WoL and HotS but it does like quite a bit in the things that made the original StarCraft great. So, like I said, I fear in my haste to make a quick statement, I might've been unclear. If you're wanting to read StarCraft in book form, this isn't really the series except for the reasons above. Revelation Space is much more like the original StarCraft: Brood War. However, I feel that its much closer to Mass Effect, indeed, as I said before, I feel like Mass Effect directly ripped off the series, unless the themes are in other novels that I don't know of. So, especially to Gradius, I apologize for my hasty statements.

[Hawki]

The characters get a huge buff in book two and three. Book two's characters are in the thick of both the military and political conflict. There's no side detective like story, which, yeah, is a bit awkward in a space opera.

There's a very specific reason for this infatuation that is beyond his control. I had thought it was explained in book one, but perhaps it was book two.

Eh, don't recall a specific explanation in book 1. Maybe Julie's merging with the proto-molecule dictated it or something but the infatuation began long before that happened AIRC (as in, before the FUBAR at Eros).

It's actually part one of six to ten

I meant the First Formic War trilogy, as in Earth Unaware being part 1 of 3.

I swear, I'll never understand how you can bash almost any story but then praise WoL in any capacity. But, that's an old discussion.

So, the fact I've spent the last few posts praising the likes of Dune, Gravity, Dauntless, Farscape, and Earth Unaware comes across as "bashing almost any story."

Anyway, I'd rather agree to disagree with WoL (and by your statements, HotS). Will have to agree to disagree about The Expanse too I guess.

[TheEconomist]

So, the fact I've spent the last few posts praising the likes of Dune, Gravity, Dauntless, Farscape, and Earth Unaware comes across as "bashing almost any story."

I meant that almost any story is better than WoL. I don't see how anyone can find any redeeming qualities in SC2 and then go and say something like Leviathan Wakes has bland characters. Yeah, I felt the characters were annoying but I tend to find all characters annoying since I have very little interest in people's private thoughts. But, honestly, its so far beyond WoL its beyond words. Or maybe I'm confusing book one and two since I read those so close together.

I meant the First Formic War trilogy, as in Earth Unaware being part 1 of 3.

Mah bad.

Eh, don't recall a specific explanation in book 1.

You'll definitely have it by book three. That's not to say that his interest in her isn't related to his own life and experiences (it is) but by book three you're going to see several examples of people's "infatuations" being messed with, or should I say, enhanced beyond what would be normal otherwise.

[Turalyon]

The frell? Take that back ya son of a hazmot or I'll kick ya in the nivonks!"

Ahem... I think you meant "mivonks!". Some fan you turned out to be...

...yeah, I've been watching Farscape over the past year, which might well have established itself as one of my favourite sci-fi TV series.

Excellent. It's a crime to be an Aussie sci-fi lover without having seen or have some form of appreciation of Farscape.

[Hawki]

I meant that almost any story is better than WoL. I don't see how anyone can find any redeeming qualities in SC2 and then go and say something like Leviathan Wakes has bland characters. Yeah, I felt the characters were annoying but I tend to find all characters annoying since I have very little interest in people's private thoughts.

Like I said, I'd prefer to agree to disagree. Same reason I haven't given you hell for preferring 343i Halo to Bungie Halo - another thing I can agree to disagree on.

But anyway, I tend to be more interested in characters' private thoughts. Another reason why I preferred EU to LW in that more time was taken for character introspection.

[TheEconomist]

343i Halo to Bungie Halo

Took a lot of looking through the topic, but I'm guessing you misunderstood my statement about "being more interested in the new stuff" First of all, I have neither played nor read any of the new stuff. I know nothing about it. Second, I was saying that I was going to get started with the new books most likely because its new and I already know all the old stuff. You know, how new and shiney is more attrative if you don't know anything about what you're buying.

Oh God, didn't know Earth Unaware was an Enderverse novel. Never liked that series. Too much YA trying to be srs. I'd be willing to bet you'd prefer the Expanse after book two and three when compared to any Enderverse book, unless OSC recently decided to grow up. Only read the first two books though so take my opinion with exactly one grain of salt less than my opinion is normally worth. Although I will say that there's about as much difference between book one and two of The Expanse as there is between book one and two of the Enderverse, which is to say a lot. Assuming I remember correctly, did a report on the Enderverse in like 9th grade, back n da day.

On a side note, if I may be of assistance, I've done a lot of research into the genre, and I think the book Spin by Robert Charles Wilson would be perfect for you. Look into it, check some reviews, I hear its very character driven, I think it'd be right up your alley.

-- Book one of the Seven Suns Saga is on sale at Audible. For 5$ its mighty tempting. I'll look into some reviews, and see HOW bad it is, as I've heard quite a bit its pretty mediocre.

PS: I think we need a SCL book club

[TheEconomist]

Just read on a forum that the production company behind the Leviathan Wakes TV series is the one that did 'Breaking Bad'. Don't know how much credit to give a production company for the greatness of Breaking Bad, but it's promising none the less.

[Hawki]

Although I will say that there's about as much difference between book one and two of The Expanse as there is between book one and two of the Enderverse

What would you call book 2 of Enderverse though? Ender in Exile (chronological) or Speaker for the Dead (publishing order)? Kind of apathic, as having read Ender's Game I didn't see any particular need for a sequel, but hey, trying to keep the thread going.

Book one of the Seven Suns Saga is on sale at Audible. For 5$ its mighty tempting. I'll look into some reviews, and see HOW bad it is, as I've heard quite a bit its pretty mediocre.

Eh, wouldn't call it bad. Probably falls into "okay" territory for me. Still, not much else to say since the PM.

Just read on a forum that the production company behind the Leviathan Wakes TV series is the one that did 'Breaking Bad'.

And the writers' past resume includes Cowboys and Aliens.

Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound I guess.