Why didn't the Confederacy activate the Psi Disruptor when Mengsk released the Zerg?

[Turalyon]

That's why I said there's no point in arguing it because its an unknown.

I was saying "it makes more sense for it to be FTL sensors."

I didn't say it was proof.

I said it was more probable.

I'm sensing a backpedal here. Now you're admitting it makes sense for it to be FTL sensors to you when you said earlier that it was canon and an unassailable fact. Your position is slipping all over the place all the time.

That's...not the point.

I'm afraid it is. I'm just mirroring the fallacy in your argumentation.

No.

I'm going off of what they have done before, which is thousands of system runners, the smallest FTL ship with largest quantity.

Anyways, I'm the one who brough up billions/trillions anyways. Its not stated. Can't argue it anyways.

So? The billions of probes can be seen as an extension of "going off what they have done before" as well. They have Korhal itself retconned or "developed" from single colony on a desolate world in part of gigantic system of planets into a fertile world covered by an ecumenopolis (built in 4 years in seems) that somehow was re-imagined into being in its own solar system. You can stretch you suspension of disbelief this far, so in comparison, it's not even that far to to consider the possibility of billions of probes.

I'm not the one who made it happen though.

Exactly. One can argue that billions of probes could have happened too because I/you weren't the ones to make it happen. Having magical FTL sensors is just the same as having the magical ability to build billions of probes.

[FanaticTemplar]

Yes.

The passage is though.

Yes, but the passage doesn't explicitly mention faster-than-light sensors. Faster-than-light sensors are not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the canon.

Do not ignore the rest of what I said.

Yes, you are right.

It is an imaging program.

It is also a surveillance system.

Yes? I ignored it because it was not relevant. You're trying to prove that it's a sensory device, not part of a surveillance system.

No. No. No.

Yes. You do realise I can actually prove that you wrote that 'kind of radar' was defined by faster than light? Look:

But it isn't called a radar, its called Kind of Radar, and by its very definition (...) means its FTL.

Sent out deep space probes that didn't reach the Terran sector until right before the Zerg got there.

Wrong.

As they progressed, the Overmind sent out numerous deep-space probes that scouted ahead of the Swarm[...]

One of its deep-space probes had relayed the location and vital statistics of a race that occupied a series of nondescript worlds, right under the shadow of the Protoss.

Then it takes sixty years for the rest of the Swarm to get there.

It mentions the Norad 2 crew scanning something.

Since Sensor arrays are not mentioned and have no proof supporting their use, the Norad 2 is the only thing capable of scanning in the quote.

Since faster-than-light shipboard sensors are not mentioned and have no proof supporting their use, sensor arrays are the only thing capable of scanning in the quote.

If the network was there, the Protos would have already been detected by the satellite, and at the time the Norad came out of sub-warp, it should have been alerted right then. We know the Terrans have FTL communication.

Why would it not have warned them?

Because it isn't capable of thought? Why do you think Duke asked to "widen the scan"? Clearly, there was no information to be obtained from around Chau Sara, so he had to pull up information from more distant satellites.

And both interpretations are perfectly valid.

Assuming it were so, You've just destroyed your argument, since you claimed that "visuals" was synonymous with "shipboard sensors".

Counting when the ship elongated and distorted?

I just counted the actual time in the rift.

As for that, the fact it is a cinematic gives credence that time was not skipped, especially since Raynor just asked Matt what's going on, and they received news about the Zerg attack after the jump. Terran ships can still receive information while in warp Space, and one would think that would include the news. There would be no reason for them to wait hours on end to look for news about what just happened at Mar Sara.

I think there exists certain measures of time between "six seconds" and "hours".

Sub-Warp is a part of Warp travel.

That makes no sense. The definition of the prefix 'sub' is that it is less than, so sub-warp means less than warp.

[Alar]

Completely unrelated to Starcraft, but in the Honor Harrington series, faster-than-light communication and sensors are all based around gravity. The forces of gravity act upon the universe faster than light itself, and traveling in Hyper space (by utilizing giant 'sails' that catch on gravity waves that weave and twist around the universe) relies on using that to keep you from crashing into something unstable and exploding. Eventually they develop a way to send gravitic pulses like morse code and use that.

Again, completely unrelated... but I'm sure Starcraft has a relatively (maybe?) plausible way to pull it off.

[pure.Wasted]

Fanatic Templar and Turalyon... I want you guys to know that I find your boundless patience actually inspiring. I read every single one of your replies waiting for you to fly off the handle, but hoping against reason that you wouldn't, and the closest we got was T. responding to a particular argument with just an eye-roll smiley one time. Truly a knee-jerk, berserk reaction that. ;D

My time was well spent, considering I now have more hope for the human race than I did twenty minutes ago. Take that, Einstein! More like three things...

To keep this on-topic, Shadow Archon, you are wrong. I know you don't personally see it this way, and you probably never will, but you are. You've committed numerous logical fallacies, most of which have been pointed out by Turalyon and FT, including but not limited to circular reasoning, hasty generalizations, and, my personal favorite, your reinterpretations of common terms to mean things that render them meaningless. Like the time(s) you said that mutually exclusive events are equally canonical and all happened; the time you inferred from the fact that 'the Protectorate was giving the Sons of Korhal a base to operate from within their own capital's system' that they are allied, and furthermore pulled the false premise out of your butt that allies always share information with one another (both of these assumptions are patently untrue based on actual facts from actual life); the time you said that something being 'explicitly mentioned' and you 'inferring' it based on an entirely subjective sense of what is more probable are the exact same thing as far as the Canon is concerned (even IF this wasn't a complete desperation asspull on your behalf, and you've actually always believed this to be true, you CANNOT go into an argument expecting people to share such bizarre views implicitly); and that time you read 'kind of radar' to mean 'kind of like radar'... and then ran with that interpretation for 3 pages of discussion.

'A kind of radar' does not mean 'kind of like radar,' the same way that 'a kind of animal' does not mean 'kind of like an animal.' This distinction, overlooked by yourself, becomes quite important when we're dealing with things like mechanical bulls, which may be 'kind of like animals' but are in no way, shape, or form 'a kind of animal,' because they ain't, or when we're dealing with flying cars, which may be 'kind of like not flying cars' but are definitely not 'a kind of not flying cars,' because they ain't, or when we're dealing with FTL sensors, which may be 'kind of like radar' but are pretty damn far from 'a kind of radar,' because they do not function like actual radar! Guess what, Lidar, which you brought up as another example of 'a kind of radar,' also uses reflected light to function! All forms of transport (n.) transport (v.), all forms of radio use radio waves, and all forms of radar use reflected light! Now, the author could have chosen not to say 'a kind of radar.' S/he could have instead said 'kind of like radar' or better yet not compared it to radar at all, but the fact is that the author chose very deliberately to say that the spydeck uses 'a kind of radar.'

Here's the abridged version of the last 4 pages:

SA: Explicit canon trumps everything, and Occam's Razor is awesome too.
FT&T: So where is all this talk of FTL sensors coming from?
SA: FTL sensors are explicitly mentioned in the canon.
FT&T: No, they aren't.
SA: FTL sensors are strongly implied by what happens in the canon.
FT&T: More reasonable, sane things like the existence of spy satellites are strongly implied by what happens in the canon.
SA: Strong implication is basically equivalent to explicit canon.
FT&T: No, it's strong implication. What happened to explicit canon, which is supposed to trump everything?
SA: There is no canon here after all, we're just dealing with probabilities. My explanation that breaks the laws of physics is the most probable.
FT&T: What happened to Occam's razor? Actual science that actually exists is more probable than things that break physics as we know it.

Despite having all of this nonsense debunked every step of the way, you fight on. The author explicitly states that the spydeck uses A KIND OF RADAR, not a technology kind of like radar. Not only did you fail to live up to your absurd standards of canon explicity - and believe me, no one else takes the mess that is SC canon half as seriously - not only did you fail to live up to your professed love of the scientific method, but the only thing we know for an explicit fact is that the technology is 'a kind of radar.' As in it functions on the same principles as all known radar, because no sane person would ever say 'a spacecraft is a kind of submarine' to explain what a spacecraft is or does, they'd say 'a spacecraft is kind of like a submarine except it traverses space, not water, using completely different methods of propulsion.' The Challenger is a kind of spacecraft. The Endeavor is a kind of spacecraft. The U-96 is not a kind of spacecraft, despite some marginal similarity in function. FTL sensors would not be a kind of radar, despite some marginal similarity in function. The fact that you've struggled with this distinction doesn't mean that anyone else - much less an author - would. Nothing about your FTL sensor theory is explicit, nothing about it is probable, nothing about it is canon.

Which isn't to say that anyone here would bat an eye if Blizzard included FTL sensors in LOTV, because God knows they've done crazier things.


edit: I don't mean to speak for Fanatic Templar or Turalyon. If I misrepresented their arguments in any way that they didn't intend, I offer my apologies and extend an invitation to correct the error.

[solidsamurai]

That makes no sense. The definition of the prefix 'sub' is that it is less than, so sub-warp means less than warp.

He was probably thinking of 'sub space'. Used in star trek for 'less than space', or shrunken space, which lets ships travel farther with less space to move through.

- - - Updated - - -

That makes no sense. The definition of the prefix 'sub' is that it is less than, so sub-warp means less than warp.

He was probably thinking of 'sub space'. Used in star trek for 'less than space', or shrunken space, which lets ships travel farther with less space to move through. So yeah, sub-warp, completely different and AKA regular travel. :O

[Turalyon]

Fanatic Templar and Turalyon... I want you guys to know that I find your boundless patience actually inspiring. I read every single one of your replies waiting for you to fly off the handle, but hoping against reason that you wouldn't, and the closest we got was T. responding to a particular argument with just an eye-roll smiley one time. Truly a knee-jerk, berserk reaction that. ;D

Thanks. It certainly helps to have a sense of humour, that's for sure.

In my defense, that response was the only reasonable one I could muster considering the levels of absurdity we were reaching there.

[Gradius]

Fanatic Templar and Turalyon... I want you guys to know that I find your boundless patience actually inspiring. I read every single one of your replies waiting for you to fly off the handle, but hoping against reason that you wouldn't, and the closest we got was T. responding to a particular argument with just an eye-roll smiley one time.

Indeed, I would have blown a gasket 2 pages ago. You guys have shown considerable patience.

[topsecret221]

The forces of gravity act upon the universe faster than light itself

I can confirm that this is not actually the case... Gravity travels at light speed just like most everything else in the universe (if the sun were to simply disappear, it'd take 8 minutes for Earth to receive this information, at which point we're plunged into darkness and are shot off tangential to our orbit at ridiculously high speeds.

Sorry, as a physics major I couldn't forgive myself if I let that slide.

[Shadow Archon]

I'm sensing a backpedal here. Now you're admitting it makes sense for it to be FTL sensors to you when you said earlier that it was canon and an unassailable fact. Your position is slipping all over the place all the time.

Uh, no.

I said that FTL sensors exist, They are canon.

In that instance though, we do not know if they were used.

I'm afraid it is. I'm just mirroring the fallacy in your argumentation.

No, no.

We know the probes explored this space.

We don't know the methods of how they did so.

It isn't the point though, and was a horrible example to bring up.

So? The billions of probes can be seen as an extension of "going off what they have done before" as well. They have Korhal itself retconned or "developed" from single colony on a desolate world in part of gigantic system of planets into a fertile world covered by an ecumenopolis (built in 4 years in seems) that somehow was re-imagined into being in its own solar system. You can stretch you suspension of disbelief this far, so in comparison, it's not even that far to to consider the possibility of billions of probes.

Fair point.

Exactly. One can argue that billions of probes could have happened too because I/you weren't the ones to make it happen. Having magical FTL sensors is just the same as having the magical ability to build billions of probes.

It...isn't the same, but sure.

Yes, but the passage doesn't explicitly mention faster-than-light sensors. Faster-than-light sensors are not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the canon.

You mean where sensors in Liberty's Crusade specifically work at FTL speeds.

Because that is pretty explicit.

Yes? I ignored it because it was not relevant. You're trying to prove that it's a sensory device, not part of a surveillance system.

Because it does its surveillance with its own sensors.

[qutoe]
Yes. You do realise I can actually prove that you wrote that 'kind of radar' was defined by faster than light? Look:[/quote]

And you actually cut out my explanation.

Because of the distances involved, it has to be FTL in order for it to even work. Otherwise, Arcturus could not see what has happened to Korhal.

Wrong.

As they progressed, the Overmind sent out numerous deep-space probes that scouted ahead of the Swarm[...]

One of its deep-space probes had relayed the location and vital statistics of a race that occupied a series of nondescript worlds, right under the shadow of the Protoss.

Then it takes sixty years for the rest of the Swarm to get there.

Yes, but that probe isn't there until the Swarm get there. Tassadar finds it shortly before the Swarm arrives.

Since faster-than-light shipboard sensors are not mentioned and have no proof supporting their use,

...They do have proof supporting their use.

sensor arrays are the only thing capable of scanning in the quote.

Have you any proof that relays are being used in that quote?

Because the only system shown is the on-board sensors.

Because it isn't capable of thought? Why do you think Duke asked to "widen the scan"? Clearly, there was no information to be obtained from around Chau Sara, so he had to pull up information from more distant satellites.

That's not how it works.

If satellites were present, they would be mentioned. They aren't. As such, if it isn't shown, it doesn't exist. It only mentions a wider scan and the sensors the Terrans have on the Norad.

If they were present. They would also be able to alert the Norad where the Protoss were heading, since the Sats could have tracked them.

This is not what happens.

Assuming it were so, You've just destroyed your argument, since you claimed that "visuals" was synonymous with "shipboard sensors".

I'm saying that multiple interpretations are valid with no more evidence.

As such, the whole thing with the probes could be either way.

I think there exists certain measures of time between "six seconds" and "hours".

Yes, and minutes definitely did not pass aboard the Hyperion otherwise that conversation would have already ended.

That makes no sense. The definition of the prefix 'sub' is that it is less than, so sub-warp means less than warp.

Sub-Warp still involves jumping into warp space though.

Like the time(s) you said that mutually exclusive events are equally canonical and all happened; the time you inferred from the fact that 'the Protectorate was giving the Sons of Korhal a base to operate from within their own capital's system' that they are allied, and furthermore pulled the false premise out of your butt that allies always share information with one another (both of these assumptions are patently untrue based on actual facts from actual life); the time you said that something being 'explicitly mentioned' and you 'inferring' it based on an entirely subjective sense of what is more probable are the exact same thing as far as the Canon is concerned (even IF this wasn't a complete desperation asspull on your behalf, and you've actually always believed this to be true, you CANNOT go into an argument expecting people to share such bizarre views implicitly); and that time you read 'kind of radar' to mean 'kind of like radar'... and then ran with that interpretation for 3 pages of discussion.

Look, I did this argument six months ago I think, and I entirely forgot my train of thought through most of what I was doing here, especially since I was a bit balls off the walls loopy.

I'm likely going to have to just post an individual thread on the matter to get my points out consistently.

'A kind of radar' does not mean 'kind of like radar,' the same way that 'a kind of animal' does not mean 'kind of like an animal.' This distinction, overlooked by yourself, becomes quite important when we're dealing with things like mechanical bulls, which may be 'kind of like animals' but are in no way, shape, or form 'a kind of animal,' because they ain't, or when we're dealing with flying cars, which may be 'kind of like not flying cars' but are definitely not 'a kind of not flying cars,' because they ain't, or when we're dealing with FTL sensors, which may be 'kind of like radar' but are pretty damn far from 'a kind of radar,' because they do not function like actual radar! Guess what, Lidar, which you brought up as another example of 'a kind of radar,' also uses reflected light to function! All forms of transport (n.) transport (v.), all forms of radio use radio waves, and all forms of radar use reflected light! Now, the author could have chosen not to say 'a kind of radar.' S/he could have instead said 'kind of like radar' or better yet not compared it to radar at all, but the fact is that the author chose very deliberately to say that the spydeck uses 'a kind of radar.'

Sure, but the fact is that the device can direct ships around in the system at real time and it can also view Korhal in real time.

While many people here are fine with FTL signals, FTL signals in their mind need relays.

Here's the abridged version of the last 4 pages:

...It wasn't that bad was it?

Geez, never debate on the internet when RL rears its ugly head again.

Alright, I'll start a new thread on the subject. This has gotten really off-topic.

[Turalyon]

No need to start a new thread ShadowArchon since I can nip it in the bud (at least my end of it anyway).

The main gist of all my responses to all your previous statements is that your position is largely untenable and not logically intuitive to everyone as you would like to believe.

I think that pretty much covers everything.