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Thread: Short Story - Great One

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Short Story - Great One

    So yes, you can argue WoL is cliched. But in the context of the series as a whole, even if you cut out Insurrection and Retribution, we've still got a case of the universe repeatedly beating terrans down. You can see the pattern above I take it, so what's the greater crime - for WoL to be "cliche" in the wider scope? Or for WoL to just do what every other storyline has done and give the player a hollow victory, repeating a series cliche?
    Raynor doesn't need to have his girlfriend turned human by a magic artefact for the Terran to win a war.

    If WoL had ended with Raynor sparking a revolt, dating Hanson and overthrowing Arcturus with the help of Valerian, while perhaps thwarting one of Kerrigan's plans in the process, you wouldn't see me calling that cliché. Sure, good guys overthrow the evil dictator and all, but it wouldn't involve artefacts coming out of the blue to do exactly what the characters dreamed of.

    I thought one of WoL's themes would be Raynor overcoming his depression and becoming heroic again, but he never overcame it, he simply was handed a way to do the not-so-impossible-after-all. Of those I know, my favorite story on the "ghosts of the past" theme is Inception, and it had a happy ending (unless you are in "the whole movie was a dream" theories) that did not involve Mal being alive after all.

    That's not really a theme though. In the story, you're more describing a motif. This is down to interpretation of course, but the theme of WoL is "ghosts of the past," theme of HotS is "vengeance" (and arguably identity, but the jury's still out on that one), the theme of the story is...um...don't inhale spores?
    Right, and WoL's theme is "drunk people can still do great things". Yeah bad faith, but not any worse than summing Great One up to "don't inhale spores".

    This novel is a 10 pages story about a group of Terran going mad from sharing the thoughts of an ultralisk. The point is to flesh up the universe and suggest an ambiance, and these stories in general are pretty good at doing that.

    No, it wasn't. It entered a new phase, but nothing was solved. Kerrigan was still alive, Raynor had his third juror moment on Korhal, then entered a period where he couldn't do anything about it.
    Honestly, did you believe they might be back together again once you had finished Brood War? By then, they were enemies and Raynor would kill her when got the chance. That was most justified, and it solved the question of what exactly they were feeling for each other. SC2 only had something to say about it because the writers arbitrarily decided to unsolve it, without a single sentence to explain why Raynor loved her instead of hating her.

    So, it defies norms then, with Kerrigan being saved rather than killed? If something goes against norm, then it's an anti-cliche.
    That the girl is saved is "the norm", and that she was rescued in an improbable way is, unfortunately, also the norm.
    Last edited by Telenil; 04-13-2013 at 09:23 AM.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Short Story - Great One

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    Raynor doesn't need to have his girlfriend turned human by a magic artefact for the Terran to win a war.
    As opposed to all the other magic artifacts that appeared throughout the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    If WoL had ended with Raynor sparking a revolt, dating Hanson and overthrowing Arcturus with the help of Valerian, while perhaps thwarting one of Kerrigan's plans in the process, you wouldn't see me calling that cliché.
    No, but chances are that some people, myself included, would be calling it a repeat of Rebel Yell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    Sure, good guys overthrow the evil dictator and all, but it wouldn't involve artefacts coming out of the blue to do exactly what the characters dreamed of.
    The artifacts don't come out of the blue though. In a story sense, they're built up and interwoven with the plot before their purpose is revealed. From a lore sense, we have the khaydarin crystals of SC1 and the Uraj and Khalis of BW, and that's not even including the EU. Why are only artifacts suddenly a problem now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    I thought one of WoL's themes would be overcoming his depression and becoming heroic again,
    Which he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    but he never overcame it,
    Or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    he simply was handed a way to do the not-so-impossible-after-all.
    No, being handed a way would be Valerian showing up with the artifact saying "got this Jim, de-infests Kerrigan, have fun." In terms of retrival, Raynor does the work. In terms of getting it to Char, Raynor does the work, or at least a large part of it. He's not being "handed" anything - nothing that he hasn't previously put investment into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    My favorite story on the "ghosts of the past" theme is Inception, and it had a happy ending (unless you are in "the whole movie was a dream" theories) that did not involve Mal being alive after all.
    So on one hand you complain about WoL about making the impossible possible (de-infesting Kerrigan), whereas Inception does the same thing (turns out inception can be done despite everyone insisting that it originally can't) and you're fine with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    This novel is a 10 pages story about a group of Terran going mad from sharing the thoughts of an ultralisk. The point is to flesh up the universe and suggest an ambiance, and these stories in general are pretty good at doing that.
    Is that a confirmed point? If so, I have to ask, why? Why is it a mandate for stories to conform to a certain ambiance as opposed to crafting a story first and foremost? Obviously the author had some guidelines in that he had to tie it in with Project Blackstone, but I'd like to think that such short stories would function as stories first rather than obeying some creed.

    Then again, "story before lore" is my personal philosophy when it comes to reading/watching/whatever and writing as well, so whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    Honestly, did you believe they might be back together again once you had finished Brood War?
    I considered it a possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    By then, they were enemies and Raynor would kill her when got the chance. That was most justified, and it solved the question of what exactly they were feeling for each other.
    It doesn't solve anything. In the context of BW, Raynor has his moment, then disapears at the end without any indication he's making good on that promise. And we know what he was doing over the years, and it didn't involve devoting every resource towards Kerrigan. Fighting the zerg initially maybe - Resurrection and Alternity are examples, but even cutting those out, BW makes no clear indication of what Raynor's path is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    SC2 only had something to say about it because the writers arbitrarily decided to unsolve it, without a single sentence to explain why Raynor loved her instead of hating her.
    Cooling fires of wrath? It makes it obvious the very first time we see Raynor, and it's reinforced numerous times. Raynor doesn't need a line of dialogue when looking at Kerrigan's picture nor anymore than he needs one when Valerian's voice plays over in the lab. Show, don't tell, and in a visual medium, this is especially true.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Short Story - Great One

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    As opposed to all the other magic artifacts that appeared throughout the series.

    The artifacts don't come out of the blue though. In a story sense, they're built up and interwoven with the plot before their purpose is revealed. From a lore sense, we have the khaydarin crystals of SC1 and the Uraj and Khalis of BW, and that's not even including the EU. Why are only artifacts suddenly a problem now?
    There is a magic "I win" button in The Stand, and that too has been criticized, including by me.

    As far as I know, the artefact was introduced in WoL to be used in WoL. We are never told anything about it other than it is of Xel'Naga origin, it is just there because the writers needed it to make the SC2 plot happen.

    We don't know its original purpose, what a piece of it was doing on Mar Sara, or what its full abilities are. It is apparently designed to turn Zerg and Protoss into ashes, yet it is able to surgically remove all Zerg influence from Kerrigan (down to her DNA) without killing her and without hurting humans. HotS says it "captures" psionic power (whatever that means), but only from infested creatures, not from the ghosts or spectres that were around. Oh, and it can also be used as a glorified taser that can actually kill people. Just... why? What use would an artefact with these properties have for someone that didn't know Kerrigan would exist? The game doesn't say and doesn't even seem to care, it just conveniently happens to be that way.

    Which he does.
    When does he overcome his depression? Five minutes before learning he could "save Kerrigan", he was so mad at Arcturus that he made a suicidal assault on the Bucephalus without even knowing if he was on board. It could be argued that it wasn't just about Kerrigan, but getting her back seems to have improved his mood since of one of his first line in HotS is "forget Mengsk".

    No, being handed a way would be Valerian showing up with the artifact saying "got this Jim, de-infests Kerrigan, have fun." In terms of retrival, Raynor does the work. In terms of getting it to Char, Raynor does the work, or at least a large part of it. He's not being "handed" anything - nothing that he hasn't previously put investment into.
    Valerian and Narud told Raynor to take the artefact - through Tychus, but one of them was behind it. They also were the ones who located them, and they told Raynor what it could do and how to use it. Raynor's contribution was to stomp the Tal'darim once others pointed the way, and I suspect the Dominion fleet could have done on its own if Valerian hadn't been interested in an alliance with Raynor.

    So on one hand you complain about WoL about making the impossible possible (de-infesting Kerrigan), whereas Inception does the same thing (turns out inception can be done despite everyone insisting that it originally can't) and you're fine with it.
    This is incorrect. Arthur believes it is impossible, but Eames immediately states that it can be done and Cobb has already done it.

    It doesn't solve anything. In the context of BW, Raynor has his moment, then disapears at the end without any indication he's making good on that promise. And we know what he was doing over the years, and it didn't involve devoting every resource towards Kerrigan. Fighting the zerg initially maybe - Resurrection and Alternity are examples, but even cutting those out, BW makes no clear indication of what Raynor's path is.

    Cooling fires of wrath? It makes it obvious the very first time we see Raynor, and it's reinforced numerous times. Raynor doesn't need a line of dialogue when looking at Kerrigan's picture nor anymore than he needs one when Valerian's voice plays over in the lab. Show, don't tell, and in a visual medium, this is especially true.
    He had just seen his friends being betrayed and murdered by a woman he had known for three months! That's not some misunderstanding he took badly, that's Kerrigan being a complete bastard and mocking his grief when he sees his friend die. Would you forgive your ex-girlfriend if she murdered an entire group of friends, danced on their grave and didn't show any sign of redemption since then?
    Are you saying that Raynor swearing to kill Kerrigan for her obvious crimes as his last line in Brood War was "no clear indication of what Raynor's path is"? If so, we can stop this now, because we are clearly not going to agree.
    Last edited by Telenil; 04-13-2013 at 02:59 PM.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Short Story - Great One

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    We are never told anything about it other than it is of Xel'Naga origin
    And numerous other tidbits, such as that it's only thousands of years old rather than the usual millions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    We don't know its original purpose, what a piece of it was doing on Mar Sara, or what its full abilities are.
    Questions to be answered later perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    It is apparently designed to turn Zerg and Protoss into ashes
    No, Narud makes it clear that it wasn't the designers' intent. The ability is a by-product of the design, not the reason for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    yet it is able to surgically remove all Zerg influence from Kerrigan (down to her DNA) without killing her and without hurting humans.
    Which fits the xel'naga M.O. and scope of abilities, such as how the energy creatures have no interest in terrans and can reconstitute them without any side-effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    HotS says it "captures" psionic power (whatever that means),
    It means "captures psionic power." As in, stores energy, similar to the xel'naga crystals. Energy that we know what is being used for (Amon's revival)

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    but only from infested creatures, not from the ghosts or spectres that were around.
    No, we know the artifact is designed to extract protoss and zerg DNA, and would be just as lethal to protoss. It's established in WoL that it doesn't affect terrans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    Oh, and it can also be used as a glorified taser that can actually kill people
    Kill Kerrigan, who's zerg at the point it's used. And considering that the artifact could generate both short and long-wave blasts, is a "taser effect" that much of a leap of faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    What use would an artefact with these properties have for someone that didn't know Kerrigan would exist?
    That it's used on Kerrigan was, as was made clear in Flashpoint, was not the intended design. The artifact fits in with the xel'naga M.O. of needing protoss and zerg genetic material, and of ignoring species that they don't need. The artifact's age, dispersion, and appropriated purpose have Amon's hands all over it, but I can only speculate in that regard. Then again, maybe the energy creatures are of Amon's design rather than the xel'naga proper, but time will tell I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    Would you forgive your ex-girlfriend if she murdered an entire group of friends, danced on their grave and didn't show any sign of redemption since then?
    Well, if she was twisted by an alien species right down to her very personality, it doesn't preclude the chance of redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telenil
    Are you saying that Raynor swearing to kill Kerrigan for her obvious crimes as his last line in Brood War was "no clear indication of what Raynor's path is"?
    Well, considering that the last line concerning Raynor is "Zeratul and James Raynor went their separate ways and have not been heard from since their departure," then yes. When the epilogue makes it clear what Mengsk, Artanis, and Kerrigan are doing, and intentionally introduces ambiguity into what Raynor and Zeratul are doing, it makes it unclear. There's no sign within the game that Raynor is making good on his promise. He doesn't show up at Omega for instance. It's relevant character development, but it doesn't dictate plot development.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Short Story - Great One

    Guys, if you wanna talk about SC 2 campaign story, please take it to another thread. For the love of god, it's been discussed to death, and I can't think of any more ways to say 'the story makes this game seem cheesey and stupid'.

    Regarding the actual short story of this thread


    The religious nutjob angle is always completely unoriginal. Anytime there's a religious nutjob that's into sacrifice or justified-murder extremism, the dialogue from them is always the same stuff. They should just stop talking altogether - or have a character shoot them on sight, after the first few sentences. I'm just tired of reading about it, considering it adds nothing to the plot except 'look at how crazy I am and yet I still manage to lead a group of people!'.
    Last edited by solidsamurai; 04-15-2013 at 03:09 AM.

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