heart of the swarm

[Hawki]

With the game conveniently informing us that the Primals are so powerful, nobly savage

Name one thing "noble" about them.

and actually having the ability to make Kerrigan an even more powerful/ better Queen of Blades than she was before coupled with the condemnation that anything the Overmind touched was just a corrupted abomination and therefore weak

Except that condemnation is coming from the primal zerg themselves. It isn't objective. It's like a white person saying "white people are better than black people" and taking that person at their word. All the contentions of the primal zerg are based on specieism rather than objectivism.

The Psi Destroyer also helped the notion that the Swarm were weaker Zerg. I really hated the Psi Destroyer.

As opposed to the psi emitter. Or psi disruptor. Or every other psionic device that has used the zerg's hivemind against them. And when the primal zerg are defeated by the Swarm zerg, when the primal zerg are a small force within the Swarm, it kind of defeats the notion that they're weaker.

[Turalyon]

Name one thing "noble" about them.

What I meant was not "noble" in the usual definition but the concept of the "noble savage" (and yes, I know it's an outdated and incorrect concept when it is applied to human cultures). The Primal Zerg represent this concept of the beauty and exceptional state of it's primitiveness that is uncontaminated/uncorrupted by outside forces.

Except that condemnation is coming from the primal zerg themselves. It isn't objective. It's like a white person saying "white people are better than black people" and taking that person at their word. All the contentions of the primal zerg are based on specieism rather than objectivism.

I hear your argument, but tell me, do you truly believe that at that particular moment when Zurvan, an ancient and knowledgeable being, is giving us these revelations that the casual audience member observing it is going "well, he's just not being objective and I will disregard everything he says because it's obvious he's speciest"?

You're argument is also untenable because using this logic, how could we believe anything that anyone else in the Starcraft is nothing but their "point of view"? Then again, given that HotS has once again shown us characters with dubious motivations in terms of their characterisation, this may actually explain a lot.

[Hawki]

What I meant was not "noble" in the usual definition but the concept of the "noble savage"

Yes, I got that, but they don't even qualify for that. "Noble savage" usually invokes feelings of communal society, respect for the natural world, self-reliance, etc. The primal zerg operate on Darwinism - survival of the fittest. They're not a peace with each other, they're not self-reliant because Dehaka repeatedly reinforces that the pack leaders fell into the trap of stagnant power, and while Zerus isn't spoiled the way Swarm zerg might do it, they never express any reverence for the natural world. Zurvan may have a network of sorts, but he's hardly Zerus's Eywa.

I hear your argument, but tell me, do you truly believe that at that particular moment when Zurvan, an ancient and knowledgeable being, is giving us these revelations that the casual audience member observing it is going "well, he's just not being objective and I will disregard everything he says because it's obvious he's speciest"?

Well, I'll put it this way:

Fact: Swarm zerg stem from Amon

Opinion: Primal zerg are therefore better

That's what the above post referred to. And there's never any steering of Swarm zerg to a primal zerg philosophy. Kerrigan enters the spawning pool as a means to an end, not because "primal zerg FTW!" To cite a parallel, Tassadar uses powers of the Void, but he never becomes a full Nerazim.

You're argument is also untenable because using this logic, how could we believe anything that anyone else in the Starcraft is nothing but their "point of view"?

Common sense, personal interpretation, etc. It's the point of view of the Conclave that the Nerazim are heretics, savages, etc. It's common sense that they're not. It's within the realm of believability that Amon was indeed resurrected, because Narud has no real reason to lie. But saying "you've already lost" is not an objective statement.

Or just quote Obi-Wan. He's had a monopoly on points of view since Return of the Jedi.

[FanaticTemplar]

As opposed to the psi emitter. Or psi disruptor. Or every other psionic device that has used the zerg's hivemind against them.

As opposed to the Psi Emitter, yes. But the same thing applies to the Psi Disrupter. What an utterly ridiculous piece of technology that was.

The Psi Emitter, meanwhile, did nothing to the Zerg's hivemind. It broadcasts the neural imprint of a Ghost. It attracted Zerg because the Overmind wanted a human psychic and the Emitter was a giant sign indicating "Human Psychic Here!" It did not compel the Zerg in any way.

[Hawki]

The Psi Emitter, meanwhile, did nothing to the Zerg's hivemind. It broadcasts the neural imprint of a Ghost. It attracted Zerg because the Overmind wanted a human psychic and the Emitter was a giant sign indicating "Human Psychic Here!" It did not compel the Zerg in any way.

Apart from Brood War.

[FanaticTemplar]

Apart from Brood War.

Precisely.

[Turalyon]

Yes, I got that, but they don't even qualify for that. "Noble savage" usually invokes feelings of communal society, respect for the natural world, self-reliance, etc. The primal zerg operate on Darwinism - survival of the fittest. They're not a peace with each other, they're not self-reliant because Dehaka repeatedly reinforces that the pack leaders fell into the trap of stagnant power, and while Zerus isn't spoiled the way Swarm zerg might do it, they never express any reverence for the natural world. Zurvan may have a network of sorts, but he's hardly Zerus's Eywa.

Wasn't going for a strict definition originally largely because the exact term is specifically for human cultures and is outmoded. I was more along the lines of it being evocative of that concept in the sense that their savagery is honest in its purpose, that is all.

Well, I'll put it this way:

Fact: Swarm zerg stem from Amon

Opinion: Primal zerg are therefore better

It is also fact that the Swarm Zerg are crippled in a way that the Primal Zerg are not due to their lack of psionic ability/dependence. Dehaka goes on to point that out clearly afterwards in a mission.

Indeed, aside from Kerrigan leading the Swarm Zerg and therefore giving them a tactical edge there is nothing that really distinguishes the Swarm Zerg from the Primal Zerg (they both collect "essence" to improve themselves despite varying methodology or philosophy) except for this "weakness" on the part of the Zerg Swarm. The Primal's are also seemingly able to copy and integrate the best Swarm Zerg units within mere moments of Kerrigan's arrival and without much direct contact on Zerus whereas the Zerg have to painstakingly assimilate new strains before becoming viable. The Primal Zerg essence also makes Kerrigan's Primal QoB more powerful than the Swarm QoB because she is now unshackled from Amon whilst having power overwhelming. These facts indicate that the Primal Zerg are really better than Swarm Zerg.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is then reveled that this corruption is the reason why the Swarm Zerg cannot infest Protoss or more likely eventually merge with the Protoss to create new Xel'Naga. Although it becomes speculative at this point, if we look at this as the final goal, the Primal Zerg would be even better than the Swarm Zerg in more ways than one.

[Hawki]

Indeed, aside from Kerrigan leading the Swarm Zerg and therefore giving them a tactical edge there is nothing that really distinguishes the Swarm Zerg from the Primal Zerg (they both collect "essence" to improve themselves despite varying methodology or philosophy) except for this "weakness" on the part of the Zerg Swarm. The Primal's are also seemingly able to copy and integrate the best Swarm Zerg units within mere moments of Kerrigan's arrival and without much direct contact on Zerus whereas the Zerg have to painstakingly assimilate new strains before becoming viable. The Primal Zerg essence also makes Kerrigan's Primal QoB more powerful than the Swarm QoB because she is now unshackled from Amon whilst having power overwhelming. These facts indicate that the Primal Zerg are really better than Swarm Zerg.

Fair enough, I can see where you're coming from. The primal zerg don't share the weaknesses of Swarm zerg, Kerrigan is more powerful in primal form, etc. But I don't think it necessarily invalidates the Swarm zerg. Again with the Tassadar and Nerazim - Nerazim are "better" than Khalai in terms of the powers they wield, only Void energies can kill the Overmind, Tassadar uses said energies to do the deed, etc. I don't think it really diminishes either Khalai or Tassadar though.

Of course, how Dehaka's pack will interact with the Swarm zerg post-LotV remains to be seen. Maybe my old SC3 thread needs another plot point.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is then reveled that this corruption is the reason why the Swarm Zerg cannot infest Protoss or more likely eventually merge with the Protoss to create new Xel'Naga. Although it becomes speculative at this point, if we look at this as the final goal, the Primal Zerg would be even better than the Swarm Zerg in more ways than one.

Except we know it's the Khala/Void that protects protoss from infestation. That, and maybe "purity of form," as in, a form that can't be corrupted, whereas zerg have "purity of essence" - stay true to their nature regardless of whether they're primal or not whereas protoss aren't above intercine strife.

Or not. But it's been explained why protoss can't be infested.

[Turalyon]

Except we know it's the Khala/Void that protects protoss from infestation. That, and maybe "purity of form," as in, a form that can't be corrupted, whereas zerg have "purity of essence" - stay true to their nature regardless of whether they're primal or not whereas protoss aren't above intercine strife.

Or not. But it's been explained why protoss can't be infested.

Ah, don't get too attached to that explanation now. Sc2 has shown us multiple times that previous lore can be "re-imagined" at will, albeit that it's the Zerg that are copping the brunt of most of it so far - I can't see why the Protoss can't suffer a similar fate...

Given that the Swarm Zerg are fundamentally corrupted versions and are therefore more limited versions of Primal Zerg, can it be said that the Swarm Zerg are really pure of essence now? The difference between the Primal Zerg and the Swarm Zerg may not necessarily be synonymous with the difference between Khalai and Nerazim Protoss. For one thing each Nerazim Protoss use to be, or rather could've been, a Khalai Protoss at one point whereas there is no such possibility (at this point in time...) for an individual Swarm Zerg becoming a Primal Zerg because of their inherent corruption.

Also, infestation is a process that only the Swarm Zerg do to integrate/assimilate essence, whilst the Primal Zerg eat/absorb it directly somehow. The 'naturalness' at which the Primal Zerg seem to do this (along with their general vibe of them being 'au naturel' and the goodness that it could potentially bring) could be a way for them to integrate with the Protoss. Given that the Swarm Zerg are inferior in how they integrate essence coupled with the hivemind "corruption", this could easily be a possible out for this piece of lore.

[Visions of Khas]

Also, infestation is a process that only the Swarm Zerg do to integrate/assimilate essence, whilst the Primal Zerg eat/absorb it directly somehow. The 'naturalness' at which the Primal Zerg seem to do this (along with their general vibe of them being 'au naturel' and the goodness that it could potentially bring) could be a way for them to integrate with the Protoss. Given that the Swarm Zerg are inferior in how they integrate essence coupled with the hivemind "corruption", this could easily be a possible out for this piece of lore.

It's an interesting possibility that the Primal Zerg will be capable of assimilating a Protoss on an individual level, yielding the proper continuation of the Xel'Naga.

But I have to disagree that the Primals' method of assimilation is necessarily "superior" to that of the Swarm. Primal Zerg can assimilate traits on an individual level, and therefor makes the individual stronger. But how does that help Primal Zerg as a whole? Once the Swarm assimilates a trait, it is passed on through out the Swarm almost instantaneously. I'd liken one to micro-assimilation and the other to macro.

Neither can be called superior, simply different. One may be more apropos for one situation than another.


Either way, I think my argument that Kerrigan will personally usher in the next generation of Xel'Naga is partially validated. Not only does she control the Swarm's macro-assimilation, but may also be able to assimilate traits on an personal level. So whom might she "assimilate" or fuse with in order to create the next 'Naga?