HOTS Skytoss in PvZ a problem?

[protoswarrior]

Reading the bnet forums makes me think that Zerg players are no longer using their brains... Skytoss + Templar tech is apparently unbeatable in a direct fight. No shit Sherlock. Skytoss + HT tech is a SHITTON of gas and minerals and requires 4 bases to support and maintain constant production, not to mention that it takes like 14-15 mins to acquire JUST the tech without dying, and it hits at around 18-20 mins with a maxed army of Archons/HTs/Tempests/Carriers/Void-Rays/1-2 Oracles, is highly immobile, and there is a 15 min timing window to mess with Protoss' economy, production and tech timings, as Zerg.

Calling Skytoss OP is like the stupidest excuse for QQ Zergs have come up with by FAR... They compare it to BL/Infestor in PvZ in WOL. There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference here!

Protosses were using EVERYTHING in their arsenal to fight BL/Infestor from Warp-prism/DT to Carriers with Archons and Mothership, and NOTHING short of sheer luck or major mistakes by the Zerg was allowing Protosses to win games, OR Protosses were FORCED to kill Zerg before that composition arose at around 14 mins (using CreatorPrime's no colossus build). The thing with BL/INfestor also was that Zergs had SIX to EIGHT bases to back up that army and a shitton of hatcheries and banked resources/larvae. Skytoss is BARELY sustainable on 4 bases and 4 stargate Carrier/Tempest + mass Archon/HT with VR support from the midgame... If Protoss' army dies, it is game over. If BL/Infestor dies, no biggie, Zerg re-spawns another army rightaway in the next 60 seconds. If Protoss did not kill Zerg in that 1 minute, Protoss loses the game... Zergs who kill that SkyProtoss army, auto-win.

WTF is wrong with Zerg players these days?

They're expecting a MUCH more expensive and higher tech army to just be hard-countered with simple-minded strategy? WTF?

Use your brains, Zergs... Use drop play, speed hydra counter-attacks with roaches to deny Protoss his 3rd for as long as possible, transition to swarm hosts late in midgame to control Protoss' Templar count and location, forcing Protoss to defend one particular location, then split the Zerg army into 2-3 multipronged attacks to force Protoss to split his thin VR/HT/zealot/Archon or VR/Colossus army in midgame, and cause damage to slow down Protoss to a crawl. Get to 5-6 bases and Hive and get Viper/Hydra/Infestor, and conserve maybe 4-5 swarm hosts purely for additional pressure, and replace the remaining swarm hosts with Hydra/Corruptor and maybe Ultras for counter-attacks, all game, until Zerg has a big econ and production advantage. So, by the time Protoss HAS his maxed terror army, just trade everything with Protoss, and re-max on Hydra/Infestor/Corruptor, and WIN by attrition fights.

Currently Zerg players make me pull my hair out

[DemolitionSquid]

We should ask Idra for his opinion.

[protoswarrior]

We should ask Idra for his opinion.

lol..

What would that accomplish?

[DemolitionSquid]

lol..

What would that accomplish?

A good laugh, obviously.

[The_Blade]

I can't agree with you, Protoswarrior. I'll state that both your arguments and those from the people of Battle.net are misguided or incomplete.

Now, why are they incomplete or misguided? Well, because the folk from Battle.net focus on the result of a single scenario and you on the whole cause and effect, still over one scenario. According to your arguments it is quite possible to defeat a Protoss who is going for "skytoss", but a Protoss can take different paths with different results. It will also take a Zerg with high skills to stop a Protoss at any level, but I won't get a lot into that.

The huge problem with Protoss is how their whole openings evolved between WoL and HotS. IIRC you stated "FFE-2 Stargates" was beast. For now I'll focus on the most problematic one, "FFE-Robo-Stargate". I recall Day[9] talking about this opening in one of his dailies. He stated that it was probably one of the best DEFENSIVE opening for Protoss. With this opening Protoss could macro-up and get an early third, without a high risk of being killed by a Roach all-in. The main strength of it was air. Voidrays could be used to stop early aggression or to harass the Zerg economy with Phoenix. This build was defensive because air was not sustainable.

When HotS arrived and buffed Protoss air, this particular opening became quite stronger. Protoss players can assume the Zerg won't be able to kill them for the first 6 minutes (you always scout though). This 6 minutes gives the Protoss a quick chance to saturate both expansions, with a robo and a stargate up. Then, sentries may stop any strong Zergling-Baneling push, with a proper wall, or scout the Zerg base with hallucination. Hallucinations may also work to confuse the player into going for AA. Now, as a Protoss I can scout several things with these hallucinations at the 5-6 minute mark:

1) A third and a Roach Waren
2) A Roach Waren on two bases
3) Lair tech (heavy gas income [3 gas], not direct evo into lair)

If the Protoss sees #1 he will:
a) go for an Immortal, Oracle, Sentry, Zealot all-in variation.
b) expand into a third

If the Protoss sees #2 he will:
a) go for Voidray, Oracle all-in
b) expand into a third

If the Protoss sees #3 he will:
a) go for an Immortal, Oracle, Sentry, Zealot all-in variation.
b) expand into a third

We will now assume 1.a, 2.a, and 3.a are executed with perfection and ends with the death of the Zerg. We will base this on the disadvantage the Zerg will have through its own build.

We are left now with the games that will continue into the mid-game, where we get a third.

In scenario 1.b the Zerg can do the following:
x) get a forth
y) stay on three bases and all in with roach, hydra, infestor

If the Protoss sees:
X: He will go for Skytoss, because the movility and damage of air units will keep the Zerg on its toes. The Protoss will continue to macro as it chokes the Zerg player.
Y: He will go for Voidrays, Oracles, Zealot with Colossus support.

In scenario 2.b the Zerg can do the following:
m) go for a roach all-in (11 minute mark)

M: The Protoss will go for Voidrays and transition into Skytoss.

In scenario 3.b the Zerg can do the following:
i) get Mutalisks and Corruptors
j) get Infestors and Hydras
k) get Swarm Hosts and Hydras

If the Protoss sees:
I: He will transition into Skytoss, opening with Phoenix.
J: He will transition into Oracles, Colossus, Zealot, Carrier.
K: He will transition into Skytoss, Zealot; with a Tempest focus.

Now, let's assume the game ends again on: 1.b.y, 2.b.m, and 3.b.i with the death of the Zerg. We assume both players played perfectly and the Zerg lost due to a direct counter to their army.

1.b.x, 3.b.j, and 3.b.k transition into the late game. On these remaining scenarios the Protoss went Skytoss. Both players now have the same amount of bases (4 probably). The Zerg has access to hive tech, but the Protoss also has access to Templar tech and full Skytoss. The Zerg player has to stop playing Swarm Hosts, because they are almost static and the game has shifted into a high mobility warfare. The Zerg can only go for Corruptors and Hydras against a Skytoss. Now, the Zerg may only win if he can outmacro the Protoss and by killing the Protoss forces.

This end game will be hardest for the Zerg. A Protoss can use higher movility with a Mothership Core to destroy Zerg expansions and protect his own. He can also use Oracles to stop the Zerg from expanding. The zerg won't be able to stop Oracles because mutas are the only units that can chase them down, but Phoenix counter them hard. Nydus will be quickly destroyed and Overlords, too. Corruptors will be killed by Archon splash damage and Hydras by Storm splash damage.

In the end the Zerg will die. If a Protoss uses this guideline he will win 90% of his games against a Zerg player. The folks from Battle.net say Skytoss is OP because Zerg players are still trying to play macro style vs Protoss. Therefore, scenario 1.b.x is the most likely situtation in games. Protoss who lose this matchup most likely got templar tech too fast, when going for Skytoss.

With all this in mind, I claim that the whole PvZ match-up is broken. Protoss players have the capacity to play defensively and offensively with a small unit composition switch, because the tech is already there. Zerg players on the other hand can't even play defensively any more, and their aggression is not that great. The Zerg race has a high risk by nature and this also killed them in this match-up.

[protoswarrior]

According to your arguments it is quite possible to defeat a Protoss who is going for "skytoss", but a Protoss can take different paths with different results.

Not really. A Protoss going Skytoss is limited by economy and gas, while a Zerg has more flexibility since he is going 3 base vs a FFE 2 base Protoss with limited gas who is trying to go for something that requires a ton of gas, AND he needs to supplement that with Templar tech to not die to a 3 base Hydra push.

FFE into 2 stargate is a commitment to Stargate play. You cannot SUDDENLY go Colossus and STILL pursue a macro game. It is just physically impossible when your gas income is barely 450 gas per minute, and every Void Ray costs 150 gas, and every Templar costs 150 gas, WITHOUT counting the costs for Stargates, Air weapons upgrade, Storm, Charge from Twilight council and mandatory 2 sentries to keep you safe from any all-in in early game, AND the mandatory Oracle or Phoenix (100 or 150 gas) to scout if Zerg is going Mutas after Lair or Infestation pit = Swarm Hosts or Infestors.

Either way, Protoss is not free to go whatever tech he wants AND then suddenly go Colossus...

When you talk about Skytoss, you are talking about an opening with FFE into 2x Stargates. 1 gate Expands always fight 2 base Zergs if Zerg scouts, and it ALWAYS involves a gateway timing with MSC, followed by 1 stargate and templar tech and takes much longer to get to the same tech point as a FFE. As you approach lategame, you're sitting on a mostly VoidRay/Archon/HT/Chargelot army with 1 Phoenix to scout, or 1-2 Oracles for detection (if there are swarm hosts involved).

For now I'll focus on the most problematic one, "FFE-Robo-Stargate".

Which is NOT skytoss... So, even though it IS irrelevant to this discussion, I'll attack it.

FFE into Robo/Stargate is a common and quite old build from WOL that got brought back to HOTS because of VRs new ability to counter armored units like corruptors.

Zerg tends to have to deal with this army using Infestor/Hydra/Queens

Here is a nice game on how to do that, by none other than the Maestro himself, ROOT.Catz:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Yj800TiAE

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=rzezVBx7DvA

I recall Day[9] talking about this opening in one of his dailies. He stated that it was probably one of the best DEFENSIVE opening for Protoss.

True, it is, but is also VERY taxing on resources and is easily countered by a Zerg playing smart with Infestors, Queens and Hydralisks, and using a Swarm host transition to pressure Protoss' bases so that Zerg can just go into Ultralisk/crackling and later on, add Vipers for abduct.

But essentially, Infestors are the main unit to use against that along with Ultra/ling and Queens/hydras for anti-air. VRs are EXTREMELY bad against hydras, and colossi are extremely vulnerable to infestors and Ultras, and because VR/Col costs SOOO much, there is not much of a gate army for protection. That's why Ultralisks are a great unit lategame for this.

With this opening Protoss could macro-up and get an early third, without a high risk of being killed by a Roach all-in.

No... they get a late 3rd because of the tech commitment required, but yeah, Protoss will not die to a roach all-in, but Hydra/Roach or Hydra/ling will definitely prevent a 3rd from going up, unless Protoss does some INSANE pressure to keep Zerg back and cause him to fall behind, just like in the above Catz game where he was behind due to the cannon rush, but Protoss was in approximately the same boat, tech-wise because of his resource commitment.

When HotS arrived and buffed Protoss air, this particular opening became quite stronger. Protoss players can assume the Zerg won't be able to kill them for the first 6 minutes (you always scout though). This 6 minutes gives the Protoss a quick chance to saturate both expansions, with a robo and a stargate up.

And Protoss cannot get a 3rd until he HAS enough colossi and VR on the field which is at LEAST 4-5 mins later... If Protoss were taking a 3rd AND teching to both colossus and VR, you should be killing his <10 mins 3rd with speedlings since there is nothing Protoss can do about it earlier...

Then, sentries may stop any strong Zergling-Baneling push,

Like 2 sentries max... Unless it was a 1 gate expand, then 4-6 sentries = delayed tech by a LOT.

or scout the Zerg base with hallucination. Hallucinations may also work to confuse the player into going for AA.

With Overseers being so cheap and the timing of that scouting being around when Zerg will have finished Lair, there is NO reason why Zerg should be "confused" by hallucinations, unless Zerg was terrible at scouting and did not make a single Overseer...

Now, as a Protoss I can scout several things with these hallucinations at the 5-6 minute mark:

1) A third and a Roach Waren
2) A Roach Waren on two bases
3) Lair tech (heavy gas income [3 gas], not direct evo into lair)

1) A 3rd SHOULD have been scouted using a scouting probe, not a hallucination, but ok. Roach Warren at 5-6 mins can only be a a 2 base Roach play or 3 base roach all-in. Normal Roach warren is timed at 7 mins with evo chamber.

2) Roach warren on 2 base should IMMEDIATELY force Protoss to throw down 4 cannons and stop chrono on nexuses and focus on his 1 gate to produce 2 sentries. Oh wait, you aren't going to scout that on a FFE with hallucination because your sentries aren't built yet. You're using gas for tech... So, no. Hallucination does not apply in this case.

3) 5-6 min Lair means he is going for a 2 base all-in with Swarm hosts, or with 4 gases + mass speedling, 2 base Muta.

3 base Zerg is standard, so Protoss seeing this is getting static defense, and is responding to Mutas by not building any colossi, but getting Phoenixes and building cannons + obs and taking a 3rd base as soon as there are 6-7 Phoenixes out = about the time Mutas will hit at 9mins.

If the Protoss sees #1 he will:
a) go for an Immortal, Oracle, Sentry, Zealot all-in variation.
b) expand into a third

lol... no.

a) that's a retarded composition and Protoss going for that would not get that up in time to fight a Stephano roach max, merely because of how gas-heavy that comp is... Immortal AND Oracle AND Sentry on JUST 2 base? lol...

b) Suicidal... Zerg just rolls you with roaches... Unless you are committing to Sentry/Immortal and 4 gates with that 3rd and Sentries and Immortals as defense - no robo bay and no stargate, you are NOT holding that 3rd base against roaches... Not if you go Robo/Stargate of a FFE. The other way to hold a 3rd would be to go double Stargate VR with cannons and Zealots with charge, and storm tech researching, with VRs on +1 air and Zealots on +2, but your 3rd is going to be at 10-11 mins, not 6 mins.


And if you meant a) then b), then you have no idea how Protoss really works...

You cannot do an all-in AND expand to a 3rd at the same time.

If the Protoss sees #2 he will:
a) go for Voidray, Oracle all-in

Won't address b). Not necessary.

a) Going for 2 base VR is correct, but not Oracles... You cannot afford a ton of VRs and Oracles, and if you do not have sufficient numbers, you cannot "all-in" with them, not to mention you NEED like 4 cannons and 2 sentries to hold off the initial roaches, and also to clarify that Protoss will HAVE to scout for that all-in with just a probe and a chronoboosted Zealot, as your FIRST Stargate will still be making your first VR at the time you NEED to be scouting Zerg for a 3rd and hi potential tech choice or all-in.

If the Protoss sees #3 he will:
a) go for an Immortal, Oracle, Sentry, Zealot all-in variation.

... That's really retarded. You'll just die to Muta/ling as he holds you off on 2 base with 6 spines and a BUNCH of queens, 8-9 mutas and mass speedlings with good creep spread.

As Protoss, if you're opening Robo/Stargate and you do not make a single Phoenix against a spire build, you DIE in HoTS... That was a fact established in Beta for PvZ after the Muta and Phoenix buffs. Blink stalker and even storm is not strong enough to stop Mutas. You need Phoenixes.

And if you think Oracle/Immortal will hit before mutas, think again. The ONLY reason Immortal/Sentry hit at 10 mins in WOL is because Protoss was committing to NOTHING BUT 3 Immortals/1 Warp-prism/8-9 sentries and zealots and only 2-3 stalkers. Oracles AND Immortals eat into Sentry and stalker counts which weakens that all-in CONSIDERABLY, not to mention it delays it by a good 1:30-2 mins... By which time Mutas are already out.

We will base this on the disadvantage the Zerg will have through its own build.

We are left now with the games that will continue into the mid-game, where we get a third.

The ONLY assumption to take into consideration here is that Zerg is not retarded and plays safe standard 3 base in response to FFE, with standard Lair timing, standard 7 min roach warren with evo chamber. Any other builds are gimmicks and aren't really relevant to macro play, for which Skytoss is the main consideration to tackle as Zerg, and we are assuming Zerg is using a strong midgame like speed Hydra/roach to control the timing of Protoss' 3rd, and he is also taking a 4th and 5th base while Protoss gets his 3rd up. Meanwhile, Zerg should be preparing for some sort of pressure. That includes drop play for multi-pronged attacks, and a logical transition to Swarm Hosts on 3-4 bases to ensure Protoss is pinned and has to place all his strongest AOE at one location to ensure that base does not fall, which ensures Zerg has free reign on where to do drops.

Both players now have the same amount of bases (4 probably).

Under normal game circumstances, Zerg will be on way more bases... likely 6-7. Your wonky assumptions that are NOT based on the real metagame currently being used on bnet ignore facts like Zerg has other tools to use to control the map like speed hydras, Ultra/cracklings, drops, nydus worms on 3-4 bases, Swarm Host map control, and sometimes, Mutalisks.

There are so many midgame transitions Zerg can use to force Protoss to split his army and have a cost-inefficient engagement, and take damage to his production, tech or economy as a result.

The thing you fail to realize is that Protoss is limited by his tech's cost, while Zerg is not limited by cost as much, but is limited by strength of his tech, until he has 6-7 bases, is maxed out and has Hive and all his tech structures, from where he can choose to complement his army with whatever counters the Protoss army the best.

If Protoss goes VR/Tempest/Archon/HT, Zerg can exploit that by going mass drop and Ultra/ling counter attacking with infestor/hydra or infestor/queen + late Vipers as support for Blinding Cloud and Abducts.


If Protoss went phoenix/VR/Archon, then mass hydra/infestor/queen + Viper works better.

If Protoss went Col/VR/Archon, then Zerg can go Ultra/ling/Infestor/Queen + Swarm hosts, and a late viper/hydra transition.

If Protoss went Col/stalker/VR, then Roach/Hydra/Viper works best.

Lategame Tempest transitions are easily dealt with using Corruptors in the mix while dealing a ton of midgame damage to Protoss' economy mostly to slow his progress to that transition, until Zerg has overwhelming production.

The Zerg player has to stop playing Swarm Hosts, because they are almost static and the game has shifted into a high mobility warfare.

lol... No.

Tempest, Carrier, VR, Archon/HT is called LOW mobility. They mostly have 2.25 speed - the speed of a slow Zealot.

Swarm Hosts are actually EXCELLENT to use against this because this forces Protoss to KEEP his army in the location where locusts are attacking, and it ALLOWS Zerg to just counter-attack elsewhere where Protoss does not have the army. And once the army reaches there, retreat. Meanwhile, Swarm hosts are doing consistent damage over time.

The Zerg player should CONTINUE using Swarm Hosts in this case.

The Zerg can only go for Corruptors and Hydras against a Skytoss.

Again... no.

Zerg can go for Infestor/Hydra/Queen/Viper + corruptors ONLY as necessary to hit capital ships (not VRs).

Now, the Zerg may only win if he can outmacro the Protoss and by killing the Protoss forces.

About the ONLY correct thing you said so far.

And to do that, Zerg needs to have played well in midgame by EXPLOITING the lack of mobility of VRs/HTs, and forced Protoss to defend a particular location from counter-attacks and Swarm Hosts.

In the end the Zerg will die. If a Protoss uses this guideline he will win 90% of his games against a Zerg player.

ONLY if the Zerg player played poorly. There is no reason why Zerg should die because he cannot outmacro a Protoss... In lategame, a 6-7 base Hive Zerg WILL outproduce Protoss, but by how much, is determined by how well Zerg played his midgame and transition to lategame. If a Zerg plays like he did in WOL and expected his "deathball" to beat Protoss' "Skytoss deathball", then he is playing stupidly and deserves to lose. HOTS is forcing Zerg players to STOP deathballing against Protoss and return to their roots of Broodwar for winning with attrition battles.

Protoss who lose this matchup most likely got templar tech too fast, when going for Skytoss.

There is no such thing on 2 base Protoss. I habitually see really good players who skytoss (at top Masters level) go FFE > 2x SG VR + 10 gates and charge + Storm on 2 bases while a 3rd Nexus is building.

So, no you're wrong.

And, I use that same build, and my economy allows me to get Templar tech + 2x Stargate tech quite comfortably, because my minerals are going into Zealots, VRs and cannons, while my gas is mostly going to VR/HT.

With all this in mind, I claim that the whole PvZ match-up is broken.

LOL...no. PvZ is fine. It is just different from WOL. Zerg players haven't learned to let go of mass infestor/Broodlord deathball play. That is all.

The PvZ matchup is requiring Zerg players to think more creatively, and Swarm Hosts seem to hold a lot of the answers, so do the new Ultralisk, hydralisk and the Viper, depending on the situations.

I suggest you learn more about the game in the months to come. You clearly still have a lot of learning to do in PvZ, especially considering the Protoss side of things and what limitations exist on a Protoss committing to mass stargate units.

Zerg players on the other hand can't even play defensively any more, and their aggression is not that great. The Zerg race has a high risk by nature and this also killed them in this match-up.

This is completely false...

Zerg is a reactionary race, but it is also a HIGHLY mobile race with a lot of potential for counter-aggression play based on high mobility and disposable units. Zerg was never MEANT to play defensively like they did in WOL. They only DID BECAUSE of the BROKEN Infestor. You could literally make 30 infestors and a wall of spines, and Protoss could NEVER break that, and Broodlords would pop, and if Protoss did not have a Mothership with 100 energy on it, it was game over right there and then...

No, Zerg was supposed to be an aggressive race with highly cheap and disposable units due to how the macro mechanic of Zerg was designed. The FLUKE of the Infestor buff changed that and we had 1.5 years of stupidity in PvZ and 6 months of stupidity in TvZ... It was harder for Protoss because there was LITERALLY nothing BUT an Archon Toilet that could win Protoss macro games...

Zerg is not high risk. The economy of Zerg, the strength of the roach, and now in HoTS the strength of the Hydralisk as well, all make Zerg a REALLY low risk race in early and midgame, but as we progress into lategame, Zerg tends to need to do damage to slow down opponents of opposing races to allow the SINGLE most powerful tool in the bag of a Zerg: its Macro, to shine and win games.

And the way to do it? Utilize siege units and HIGH mobility of Zerg to hit and damage other races where they're the slowest and most vulnerable = lategame.

It is a question of Zerg players learning how to use their tools right instead of expecting to have a deathball army win cost-efficiently against a Terran or Protoss deathball who are SUPPOSED to be cost-efficient against Zerg, but weren't in WOL, and ARE in HOTS.

Zerg complaints about Skytoss are COMPLETELY unwarranted, because most of them are playing against it wrong.

[The_Blade]

Not really. A Protoss going Skytoss is limited by economy and gas, while a Zerg has more flexibility since he is going 3 base vs a FFE 2 base Protoss with limited gas who is trying to go for something that requires a ton of gas, AND he needs to supplement that with Templar tech to not die to a 3 base Hydra push.

FFE into 2 stargate is a commitment to Stargate play. You cannot SUDDENLY go Colossus and STILL pursue a macro game. It is just physically impossible when your gas income is barely 450 gas per minute, and every Void Ray costs 150 gas, and every Templar costs 150 gas, WITHOUT counting the costs for Stargates, Air weapons upgrade, Storm, Charge from Twilight council and mandatory 2 sentries to keep you safe from any all-in in early game, AND the mandatory Oracle or Phoenix (100 or 150 gas) to scout if Zerg is going Mutas after Lair or Infestation pit = Swarm Hosts or Infestors.

Either way, Protoss is not free to go whatever tech he wants AND then suddenly go Colossus...

When you talk about Skytoss, you are talking about an opening with FFE into 2x Stargates. 1 gate Expands always fight 2 base Zergs if Zerg scouts, and it ALWAYS involves a gateway timing with MSC, followed by 1 stargate and templar tech and takes much longer to get to the same tech point as a FFE. As you approach lategame, you're sitting on a mostly VoidRay/Archon/HT/Chargelot army with 1 Phoenix to scout, or 1-2 Oracles for detection (if there are swarm hosts involved).

Our main disagreement here is on the "Skytoss" term. As a community term I'd say it is best used with the least specific meaning. I'm strongly against your use which is limited only to FFE into 2x Stargates and gateway aggression deviations. Calling that "Skytoss" is like calling a single mech transition "mech play". "Skytoss" is basically a Protoss who took his game to the air at any stage of the game.

Which is NOT skytoss... So, even though it IS irrelevant to this discussion, I'll attack it.

FFE into Robo/Stargate is a common and quite old build from WOL that got brought back to HOTS because of VRs new ability to counter armored units like corruptors.

Zerg tends to have to deal with this army using Infestor/Hydra/Queens

Here is a nice game on how to do that, by none other than the Maestro himself, ROOT.Catz:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8Yj800TiAE

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=rzezVBx7DvA

I talked about FFE + Robo + Stargate as an opening with possibilites. I tried to focus on those builds were we could potentially reach "Skytoss" as a transition from this opening. The current Metagame is still shifting as the Pros and the rest of the Ladder settle for strategies. So far that game only shows a Protoss which barely addapted into HotS. He build the same old units, Archon/Colossus/Immortal/Zealot/Void Ray. His composition will still do ok vs Catz addapted strategy to HotS, but HotS-Protoss strategies work better. The Protoss invested most of his gas into Archons, which died to abduct and ultras. Using Archons as meatshields is just not a good trade economywise.

In HotS this opening has more than VoidRays. Oracles themselves are extremely good vs Zerg. Then Zealot/Immortal/Colossus works best as a support for "Skytoss" and this will be later complemented by Storm and Templars. Most of the gas goes for the air units. 2-3 colossus and an armor upgrade on Zealots helps keep the roaches away with a MSC. The potential of this opening comes from the Stargate harass and aggression.

True, it is, but is also VERY taxing on resources and is easily countered by a Zerg playing smart with Infestors, Queens and Hydralisks, and using a Swarm host transition to pressure Protoss' bases so that Zerg can just go into Ultralisk/crackling and later on, add Vipers for abduct.

But essentially, Infestors are the main unit to use against that along with Ultra/ling and Queens/hydras for anti-air. VRs are EXTREMELY bad against hydras, and colossi are extremely vulnerable to infestors and Ultras, and because VR/Col costs SOOO much, there is not much of a gate army for protection. That's why Ultralisks are a great unit lategame for this.

Again you focus on a single build. You trust he will go for the same composition CatZ faced in this game. The Protoss IS flexible and can choose what to build and what tech to unlock depending on scouting information coming from Hallusinations, Probes, MSC, Observers and Oracles. The Protoss also has access to mineral based cannon fooder.

It is true that the aggression coming from the Stargate will make the Zerg get some AA. That's one of the ideas behind the deadliness of this opening. Hydras are Terrible vs armies with more than 3 Colossi. A Zerg player will most likely try to secure an early fourth which will be under constant siege from air units. After hitting 4 or 5 Colossi a Protoss can transition into heavy Oracle/Zealot drops harass play. This will force Infestors out of the main army with some Hydras. The Protoss army will then have enough power to eat through the fourth or fifth base. In case of Mutalisks, go for Phoenix.

Ultralisks are not countered by Voidrays, but by Tempests and Immortals. Immortals will be less taxing on gas so they will be much easier to train. Oracles clean Zerglings and Immortals, Ultras.

No... they get a late 3rd because of the tech commitment required, but yeah, Protoss will not die to a roach all-in, but Hydra/Roach or Hydra/ling will definitely prevent a 3rd from going up, unless Protoss does some INSANE pressure to keep Zerg back and cause him to fall behind, just like in the above Catz game where he was behind due to the cannon rush, but Protoss was in approximately the same boat, tech-wise because of his resource commitment.

The pressure you call insane actually comes from the Stargate and is quite simple. The Zerg can all-in and ignore the harass or commit to a defensive AA play. The Protoss forces the All-in at this stage. He can get the third if the All-in was not induced or keep getting a tech heavy army that will crush the Zerg's 2 base. MSC's work wonders as defenders and so do the few Colossi and Oracles you will have around.

And Protoss cannot get a 3rd until he HAS enough colossi and VR on the field which is at LEAST 4-5 mins later... If Protoss were taking a 3rd AND teching to both colossus and VR, you should be killing his <10 mins 3rd with speedlings since there is nothing Protoss can do about it earlier...

You forget Zealots and Cannons. You also assume he is only getting Voidrays. A single Oracle can eat through so many Zerglings.

Like 2 sentries max... Unless it was a 1 gate expand, then 4-6 sentries = delayed tech by a LOT

2 Sentries are enough to block most ramps. Oracles and Cannons can then take out Banelings.

With Overseers being so cheap and the timing of that scouting being around when Zerg will have finished Lair, there is NO reason why Zerg should be "confused" by hallucinations, unless Zerg was terrible at scouting and did not make a single Overseer...

This still works. Most Zerg players don't build Spore Crawlers unless they have scouted the Stargate. Most of the times the Overseer is also around the enemy base. With proxy stargate being quite possible, so is confusing Zerg players into going for AA, when you are getting a heavy ground based force.

1) A 3rd SHOULD have been scouted using a scouting probe, not a hallucination, but ok. Roach Warren at 5-6 mins can only be a a 2 base Roach play or 3 base roach all-in. Normal Roach warren is timed at 7 mins with evo chamber.

2) Roach warren on 2 base should IMMEDIATELY force Protoss to throw down 4 cannons and stop chrono on nexuses and focus on his 1 gate to produce 2 sentries. Oh wait, you aren't going to scout that on a FFE with hallucination because your sentries aren't built yet. You're using gas for tech... So, no. Hallucination does not apply in this case.

3) 5-6 min Lair means he is going for a 2 base all-in with Swarm hosts, or with 4 gases + mass speedling, 2 base Muta.

3 base Zerg is standard, so Protoss seeing this is getting static defense, and is responding to Mutas by not building any colossi, but getting Phoenixes and building cannons + obs and taking a 3rd base as soon as there are 6-7 Phoenixes out = about the time Mutas will hit at 9mins.

#1: Yes, the Hallucination to scout a third was my bad, but Roach and Lair almost always come down in the 7 minute mark.
#2: You can get a Stalker and Warpgate, a MSC, or a sentry before Robo. Most of the times a single Sentry this early has enough energy for a lot of things. A MSC will also delay All-ins and can scout quite well.
#3: Both are easily stopped with Stargate tech and Cannons.
#4: Cannons are not as essential on the mineral line any more as they were in WoL. This is a great example of how Zerg players can no longer afford 5 muta Harass. Phoenix can almost always clean any amount of muta from the skies. Swarm Hosts pressure is reduced through Colossi/Cannons and they are easily killed by air support.

lol... no.

a) that's a retarded composition and Protoss going for that would not get that up in time to fight a Stephano roach max, merely because of how gas-heavy that comp is... Immortal AND Oracle AND Sentry on JUST 2 base? lol...

b) Suicidal... Zerg just rolls you with roaches... Unless you are committing to Sentry/Immortal and 4 gates with that 3rd and Sentries and Immortals as defense - no robo bay and no stargate, you are NOT holding that 3rd base against roaches... Not if you go Robo/Stargate of a FFE. The other way to hold a 3rd would be to go double Stargate VR with cannons and Zealots with charge, and storm tech researching, with VRs on +1 air and Zealots on +2, but your 3rd is going to be at 10-11 mins, not 6 mins.

And if you meant a) then b), then you have no idea how Protoss really works...

You cannot do an all-in AND expand to a 3rd at the same time.

"A" actually works. It's heavy on gas, but you have to sacrifice some sentries to build Oracles. Instead of 7-8 sentries you get 3-4. Oracles do a split push through the mineral lines while your forces advance. The Zerg player will then be forced to get Spore Crawlers and Queens. This take A LOT from the Roach production. I can't still get the proportion right, but I kill the Zerg most of the times.

"B" works with a MSC up and more Immortals than Sentries up with +1 damage. Zealots absorb damage with +1 armor and no charge.

This options are alternatives not secuential actions.

Won't address b). Not necessary.

a) Going for 2 base VR is correct, but not Oracles... You cannot afford a ton of VRs and Oracles, and if you do not have sufficient numbers, you cannot "all-in" with them, not to mention you NEED like 4 cannons and 2 sentries to hold off the initial roaches, and also to clarify that Protoss will HAVE to scout for that all-in with just a probe and a chronoboosted Zealot, as your FIRST Stargate will still be making your first VR at the time you NEED to be scouting Zerg for a 3rd and hi potential tech choice or all-in.

Again, the Protoss has many scouting options. If you see heavy Roach Production, there is not much the Zerg can do vs 2 Voidrays and 2 Oracles, being resupplied. While your base is Cannonblocked with Zealots at the front.

... That's really retarded. You'll just die to Muta/ling as he holds you off on 2 base with 6 spines and a BUNCH of queens, 8-9 mutas and mass speedlings with good creep spread.

As Protoss, if you're opening Robo/Stargate and you do not make a single Phoenix against a spire build, you DIE in HoTS... That was a fact established in Beta for PvZ after the Muta and Phoenix buffs. Blink stalker and even storm is not strong enough to stop Mutas. You need Phoenixes.

And if you think Oracle/Immortal will hit before mutas, think again. The ONLY reason Immortal/Sentry hit at 10 mins in WOL is because Protoss was committing to NOTHING BUT 3 Immortals/1 Warp-prism/8-9 sentries and zealots and only 2-3 stalkers. Oracles AND Immortals eat into Sentry and stalker counts which weakens that all-in CONSIDERABLY, not to mention it delays it by a good 1:30-2 mins... By which time Mutas are already out.

You sacrifice other units for the Oracles (2 zealots and 3 sentries for every 2 oracles). You just don't build Oracles after you get the previous Immortal/Sentry/Zealots composition. You would still hit around the 10 minute mark.

The ONLY assumption to take into consideration here is that Zerg is not retarded and plays safe standard 3 base in response to FFE, with standard Lair timing, standard 7 min roach warren with evo chamber. Any other builds are gimmicks and aren't really relevant to macro play, for which Skytoss is the main consideration to tackle as Zerg, and we are assuming Zerg is using a strong midgame like speed Hydra/roach to control the timing of Protoss' 3rd, and he is also taking a 4th and 5th base while Protoss gets his 3rd up. Meanwhile, Zerg should be preparing for some sort of pressure. That includes drop play for multi-pronged attacks, and a logical transition to Swarm Hosts on 3-4 bases to ensure Protoss is pinned and has to place all his strongest AOE at one location to ensure that base does not fall, which ensures Zerg has free reign on where to do drops.

We can always fall back to your singular argument against static strategies. As I also said, people are probably hating so much on "Skytoss" because they follow this pattern of yours and fail to outmacro/outharass the Protoss. Drops are also denied in any match-up by airbased play. Nydus is denied by some Cannons located carefully. Zerg just don't have enough harass tactics any more in HotS. Sure they can run some Zerglings around, but a few Zealots and Cannons are almost always able to stop that.

Swarm Hosts also make the Zerg army static. Air units can then raid the base and force a fight with the Zerg. If the Zerg is not ready for more than pressure he will lose most of his army right there.

Under normal game circumstances, Zerg will be on way more bases... likely 6-7. Your wonky assumptions that are NOT based on the real metagame currently being used on bnet ignore facts like Zerg has other tools to use to control the map like speed hydras, Ultra/cracklings, drops, nydus worms on 3-4 bases, Swarm Host map control, and sometimes, Mutalisks.

There are so many midgame transitions Zerg can use to force Protoss to split his army and have a cost-inefficient engagement, and take damage to his production, tech or economy as a result.

The thing you fail to realize is that Protoss is limited by his tech's cost, while Zerg is not limited by cost as much, but is limited by strength of his tech, until he has 6-7 bases, is maxed out and has Hive and all his tech structures, from where he can choose to complement his army with whatever counters the Protoss army the best.

If Protoss goes VR/Tempest/Archon/HT, Zerg can exploit that by going mass drop and Ultra/ling counter attacking with infestor/hydra or infestor/queen + late Vipers as support for Blinding Cloud and Abducts.

If Protoss went phoenix/VR/Archon, then mass hydra/infestor/queen + Viper works better.

If Protoss went Col/VR/Archon, then Zerg can go Ultra/ling/Infestor/Queen + Swarm hosts, and a late viper/hydra transition.

If Protoss went Col/stalker/VR, then Roach/Hydra/Viper works best.

Lategame Tempest transitions are easily dealt with using Corruptors in the mix while dealing a ton of midgame damage to Protoss' economy mostly to slow his progress to that transition, until Zerg has overwhelming production.

Everything I just said is timed for the early game, mid game and then the late game during ZvP. I didn't claim this is the only way to play PvZ that works. There are other ways to get to Skytoss, but I wanted to focus on the Robo/Stargate opening because it makes the Protoss way too flexible with Tech as he produces a change on the Zerg army or scouts out the Zerg tech. I still don't know how you always support yourself with arguments that only have roots in the late game were the game was "perfect" for the Zerg. That red text right there shows exactly this. My wonky assumptions are then as bad as yours, through your standards of course. Despite that, my assumptions are made over one of the Zerg's key racial traits, low cost units that are "weaker" and expendable. As well, please don't be so naive to state, "That's the absolute metagame in the first month of HotS"

lol... No.

Tempest, Carrier, VR, Archon/HT is called LOW mobility. They mostly have 2.25 speed - the speed of a slow Zealot.

Swarm Hosts are actually EXCELLENT to use against this because this forces Protoss to KEEP his army in the location where locusts are attacking, and it ALLOWS Zerg to just counter-attack elsewhere where Protoss does not have the army. And once the army reaches there, retreat. Meanwhile, Swarm hosts are doing consistent damage over time.

The Zerg player should CONTINUE using Swarm Hosts in this case.

A MSC can shift that low mobility army into a extremely High mobility army.

Keeping your army were the locusts attack is probably the worst thing a Protoss player can do. If he doesn't have the AoE damage to kill them all, he will start to lose units. As of that moment, the Protoss should start to play with Tempests and Oracles in order to snipe those Swarm HotS. He could even engage after cleaning a wave of locusts, or buy more Colossi into the mix. There's a lot of things a Protoss player can do to deal with Swarm Hots, but only a few things the Zerg player can do to protect them.

As well, under your own rules, a high skilled player will play on many fronts. He will split his forces and will try to deal the most amount of damage possible to it's oponents production. For example, 7 to 8 oracles can take out a lot of stuff and they are quite fast.

Again... no.

Zerg can go for Infestor/Hydra/Queen/Viper + corruptors ONLY as necessary to hit capital ships (not VRs).

You would be surprised on how useless the Viper is against a Protoss with Tempests. Infestors are easily picked out too. Infestors can support Hydra/Corruptor, I'll give you that.

About the ONLY correct thing you said so far.

And to do that, Zerg needs to have played well in midgame by EXPLOITING the lack of mobility of VRs/HTs, and forced Protoss to defend a particular location from counter-attacks and Swarm Hosts.

Once again you forget Oracles. Oracles are the key to Skytoss harass tactics with some warp drops here and there. You seem to ignore the harass potential from Protoss in most of your arguments and I feel you believe Protoss players think like turtles. You want him to be pinned down with his full army on a single location.

ONLY if the Zerg player played poorly. There is no reason why Zerg should die because he cannot outmacro a Protoss... In lategame, a 6-7 base Hive Zerg WILL outproduce Protoss, but by how much, is determined by how well Zerg played his midgame and transition to lategame. If a Zerg plays like he did in WOL and expected his "deathball" to beat Protoss' "Skytoss deathball", then he is playing stupidly and deserves to lose. HOTS is forcing Zerg players to STOP deathballing against Protoss and return to their roots of Broodwar for winning with attrition battles.

Again, it is not that easy for Zerg players to macro any more (Stargate harass tactics are to blame). If a Zerg's only way to win is through macro there is something really wrong here. Zerg players can't even counter Protoss players. A Protoss can take out 1 or 2 Zerg bases and then teleport back home. He will then deal with the Zerg "deathball" and win, unless the Zerg can regroup with 1 or 2 bases less.

There is no such thing on 2 base Protoss. I habitually see really good players who skytoss (at top Masters level) go FFE > 2x SG VR + 10 gates and charge + Storm on 2 bases while a 3rd Nexus is building.

So, no you're wrong.

And, I use that same build, and my economy allows me to get Templar tech + 2x Stargate tech quite comfortably, because my minerals are going into Zealots, VRs and cannons, while my gas is mostly going to VR/HT.

You speak truth if we talk about 2x Stargate after FFE, but my whole post was on FFE robo+stargate.

LOL...no. PvZ is fine. It is just different from WOL. Zerg players haven't learned to let go of mass infestor/Broodlord deathball play. That is all.

The PvZ matchup is requiring Zerg players to think more creatively, and Swarm Hosts seem to hold a lot of the answers, so do the new Ultralisk, hydralisk and the Viper, depending on the situations.

I suggest you learn more about the game in the months to come. You clearly still have a lot of learning to do in PvZ, especially considering the Protoss side of things and what limitations exist on a Protoss committing to mass stargate units.

I will never stop learning, but for now I win most of my games as P in PvZ with a FFE Robo+Stargate opening. So far I understand I can't let the Zerg outmacro me, which is easier to in HotS than in WoL. With that in mind a 200 Zerg army will never be able to deal with a 200 "Skytoss" heavy on Carriers, Tempests, Oracles, Archons/Colossi, 2-5 HT. If a Zerg player can't harass me out of my macro and I can easily shut down his then the matchup is broken or I'm getting really good at this.

This is completely false...

Zerg is a reactionary race, but it is also a HIGHLY mobile race with a lot of potential for counter-aggression play based on high mobility and disposable units. Zerg was never MEANT to play defensively like they did in WOL. They only DID BECAUSE of the BROKEN Infestor. You could literally make 30 infestors and a wall of spines, and Protoss could NEVER break that, and Broodlords would pop, and if Protoss did not have a Mothership with 100 energy on it, it was game over right there and then...

No, Zerg was supposed to be an aggressive race with highly cheap and disposable units due to how the macro mechanic of Zerg was designed. The FLUKE of the Infestor buff changed that and we had 1.5 years of stupidity in PvZ and 6 months of stupidity in TvZ... It was harder for Protoss because there was LITERALLY nothing BUT an Archon Toilet that could win Protoss macro games...

Zerg is not high risk. The economy of Zerg, the strength of the roach, and now in HoTS the strength of the Hydralisk as well, all make Zerg a REALLY low risk race in early and midgame, but as we progress into lategame, Zerg tends to need to do damage to slow down opponents of opposing races to allow the SINGLE most powerful tool in the bag of a Zerg: its Macro, to shine and win games.

And the way to do it? Utilize siege units and HIGH mobility of Zerg to hit and damage other races where they're the slowest and most vulnerable = lategame.

It is a question of Zerg players learning how to use their tools right instead of expecting to have a deathball army win cost-efficiently against a Terran or Protoss deathball who are SUPPOSED to be cost-efficient against Zerg, but weren't in WOL, and ARE in HOTS.

Zerg complaints about Skytoss are COMPLETELY unwarranted, because most of them are playing against it wrong.

Protoss and Terrans got really fast harassment units on HotS. This stronger harassment hurst the Zerg economy a lot in the mid game and late game and makes the Zerg playstyle much harder and riskier. This is my main concern. That Zerg players won't be able to reach 6-7 bases as fast as they should, and will be outmacroed by races who can actually play more like turtles.

I understand there are people who are trying to play like in WoL, but I'm pretty sure Zerg need a buff somewhere to protect their macro again.

[protoswarrior]

The_Blade, I got a more detailed response incoming soon, but meanwhile, here is a GM level Zerg, Rekatan, who agrees with the concepts I talked about with regards to ZvP Skytoss. Here is a really educational video DEMONSTRATING the points I put forth, and he specifically talks about how to out maneuver a skytoss templar army, rather than "out-brute-strength" it, and it proves that Zerg does not need any more buffs.

I HIGHLY recommend you watch the video from start to finish and then re-watch it to learn his style, which is pretty much the best way to approach a power army from Protoss.





PS:

There are a lot of things you said that are completely incorrect in your post, mostly due to you being inexperienced with Protoss, or just you speculating a lot about the matchup. I will address those in more detail obviously, but, no offense, you need to learn a LOT more about Protoss economy and tech... Your points are just so wrong!

[protoswarrior]

Another video prior to me giving a detailed response to your post, as this one shows Catz using really good cost-efficiency against a more mobile style from Protoss with a power component to it: Col?HT/archon/VR:

[Carsickness]

I've really enjoyed experimenting with SKytoss vs. Zerg in HotS!
I really enjoy WhiteRa's: 2 Zealot, MS core quick 3rd into Carrier strat.

The trick I find with it is to just hug your 3rd until Zerg tries to attack and slowly incorporate those HTs.
Zerg players don't seem to understand how to counter it properly, so it's been a lot of fun

Zerg players have always been the worst complainers. Nothing new here :P

Anyways, here's a video of me doing a crappier version of WhiteRa's strat:
PvZ Carriers.SC2Replay

Love the rage at the end :P

As for countering it:
- Don't just run into the third with Hydras expecting to end the game
- Have your Hydra's wait just outside the 3rd and force the engagement and focus on the Interceptors. No interceptors, No defence
- Infestors
- delay third as long as possible

Zergs are just lazy and want to win with 1 or 2 unit army compositions :/. Adapt! that's what you do!