For PvZ, pros are behind on metagame?

[protoswarrior]

There was this build in PvZ in Beta where you FFE and go into Stargate + 4 gateways and fast +1/MS Core, pressure with either Oracle/4 Phoenixes or 1 VR/3 Phoenix + zealot stalker, force units and spine crawlers out from Zerg. While doing this, you add a 2nd stargate and start pumping either more Phoenixes or mass VRs and get charge + Templar Archives and a 3rd base + Photon cannons and gates # 5-10. This was an EASY transition into lategame tech with VR/Archon/Templar/Chargelot + a few phoenixes and 1 Oracle for harass/scouting, and you could take a 4th as soon as you are almost maxed on that, then drop a Fleet Beacon and 2 more stargates and start making Tempests and Carriers.

I know MLG games did not go that long, but no one opened 2x Stargates after FFE, which is kind of odd... The above build is SUPER resilient and SUPER strong offensively, especially since you tend to get Psi-Storm with 2 SG VR which is hella robust defensively to protect a 3rd and 4th base + Photon Overcharges.

Anyone know why pros are not using this obviously "OP" build against Zerg? :P

[DemolitionSquid]

My first guess would be that they're still experimenting, but further review shows decent theoretical counter to the build you just mentioned: Hydra/Viper with Roach/Ling tanking and Mutalisk harass. The new Hydralisk speed is proving very effective, definitely when supported by Vipers, and possibly along with Pool tech Spore Crawlers. I think that may be the deterrent.

Here is my thought in full.

Crawlers can really shut down Oracle and Phoenix harass. We both saw MLG, and the Zerg who did best used Crawlers both in PvZ, and TvZ vs Medevacs. The change to Pool requirement may subconsciously make them seem more viable to build, because the Zerg can save the 75 minerals needed for the Evo Chamber early... although that's obviously a weak argument so I'll move on.

Hydras have always crushed Gateway (Stalker/Zealot) as long as they've got Roaches or Lings to buffer, and they do decent vs Phoenix. The Void Ray was never strong against Hydras because they're classed as Light, and that's no different now with the VR change as it has only ever gained power against Armored. Thus, the solution to Hydras was always Colossi or Storm, and I propose the Speed upgrade is letting micro'ed Hydras simply survive better. Of course that would not nearly be enough on its own...

... so Zerg makes Vipers to both tank Feedback so the Templar can't Storm as much, and to Abduct the Templar or Archons to instant death. Suddenly Archive tech becomes a lot weaker. Place Blinding cloud on any Stalkers and the DPS of the Hydras can cut through that Protoss mid-game army safely. Throw in some new faster, hyper-regenerating Mutalisks to bait Photon Overcharge and keep the Protoss' Phoenix busy and his Stalkers in his base, and his expanding should then be slowed too. Ultimately, as the Protoss transitions into Tempest/Carrier late-game, nothing really changes for the Zerg - Abducting either Capital Ship results in its near immediate death from the Hydras.

My basis for all this? In Sase vs Bomber, Sase was abducting BC's and Ravens into his wall of Spore Crawlers and Hydra, and it was working pretty well. Yes it was TvZ, but the same thing would theoretically be effective versus Carrier/Tempest/Void Ray. Bomber finally managed to make some leeway with a switch from air back into Marine/Marauder to bypass the Crawlers, but was cleaned up pretty well by Blinding Cloud, which would have the same effect on Stalkers.

So, to review: a Colossi-less late-game Protoss deathball composed of Carrier/Tempest/VR/HT/Archon/Stalker/Zealot is just not feasible. There's only two options. One, the Protoss goes hard Archive - in which case Blinding Cloud shuts down the Stalker/Archon and the Vipers tank Feedbacks to minimize Storm, letting the Hydras hurl their DPS as the Protoss is harassed by Mutalisks. The more viable option is your posted beta build, Protoss goes air. Zerg counters with Vipers Abducting all the beefier units into their replaceable Hydralisk/Spore Crawler wall, which makes any Phoenix still remaining defunct and minimizes damage taken from Void Rays.

Alternately, I could be crazy.

[protoswarrior]

My first guess would be that they're still experimenting,

Sounds reasonable enough, except for one thing: there was a 6-7 month Beta, and in that period, the build I described was been dominant for at least 4 months. There is a possibility that they were experimenting with OTHER builds, but this build has been dominant and is the main reason why Zergs consider Skytoss to be OP. There was enough time to experiment with this build and refine it, and although I have seen some pros like Parting, Creator and SaSe use this, most other Protoss pros are still playing WOL with an Oracle opening... That is my main concern. It might be that pros are still behind on understanding the PvZ metagame, as was the case in WOL for the longest time, out of beta.

but further review shows decent theoretical counter to the build you just mentioned: Hydra/Viper with Roach/Ling tanking and Mutalisk harass.

Eh, not really... VR/Archon/HT takes a dump on Hydra/Roach/Viper HARD... It's not even close. HTs normally feedback Vipers well before they can be used for abducts or Blinding Cloud, because Protoss tends to lead his armies with HTs to Feedback or storm Vipers and Hydras. Roaches, their "tank", aren't enough due to Void Rays being RIDICULOUS against armored now, with Prismatic Alignment...


And, when you say "Mutalisk", it does not figure in the strategy of using the Hydra/Roach/Viper midgame composition to apply pressure to Protoss, purely because of the gas cost limitation - Hydras and Vipers are very gas intensive... As Zerg you physically CANNOT go 3 base Mutas to harass and then get Hydra/Roach/Viper at the same time, or even shortly after...There is just not enough income for it.

Zerg HAS to choose to either go 3 base ling/muta into 4-5 base Hive with Infestors or Swarm hosts + corruptor/muta (lategame), OR go 3 base fast Hive and go mass Roach/Hydra/Viper and keep being aggressive while taking bases # 5 and 6, and pulling back a little to get Hive level high tech units like Ultras or Broodlords out, or to commit to mass Corruptors + Swarm Hosts to control the Protoss' AOE units' position, and deal counter-attack damage with drop play, speed Hydra counter attacks on Protoss' 4th base, Nydus play with cracklings and/or Ultras, and basically outproduce Protoss going full Air with HT Tech.

If Zerg is going Mutas after Hydras, the Hydras must have done SIGNIFICANT damage to cripple Protoss to allow Zerg to switch to Mutas to take advantage of something like Protoss opting to go Colossus for some silly reason, as we saw at MLG...

The new Hydralisk speed is proving very effective, definitely when supported by Vipers, and possibly along with Pool tech Spore Crawlers. I think that may be the deterrent.

Absolutely not.

The new speed hydra is only effective as a counter-attack tool with higher mobility than most Protoss ground and air armies, to pick of nexuses and to be used in drop play for aggression. Vipers are not that good in PvZ, to be honest... They are too susceptible to feedback, and when you are facing something like 10 VRs + 6-8 Archons and 6 HTs + Zealots with charge and +3 ground attack and +2 Air attack upgraded, Vipers are pretty useless.

Here is why:

Blinding cloud does not affect HTs, Zealots and Void Rays. Archons are the only vulnerable units, but they're there for tanking damage mostly. The core damage comes from VR Prismatic Alignment and Psi-Storm/Feedback and Zealot melee damage.

Abduct? What are you going to abduct that will help you kill the Protoss army faster than he can kill you? VRs? With their charge ON, they just kill your armored units anyways, and because you need to come within 7 range to abduct anything, your Vipers will get decimated by Feedbacks before any Abducts can even take place... If you try to abduct Archons, you're helping Protoss by bringing a melee splash damage tanking unit INTO your ranged army... That's a dumb idea. You cannot even touch HTs because of Feedback, mainly, but also because any storms launched will damage your Vipers (and hydras alike).

Pool tech spores are actually irrelevant in this discussion except when defending against oracles and phoenixes, and those do not need to actually do any major damage to justify making them. If I make Phoenixes, your overlords need to be evacuated from the map, you queens need to be tucked in in groups to prevent them from dying to Grav beams, multiple spores need to be built = wasted drones and minerals spent = slower tech and slower saturation. If I make ONE Oracle, you have to cover every mineral line with Queens and at least 2 spores, because you can reactively build a 2nd spore if you do not know if a 2nd or 3rd Oracle is coming...

Aside from that, spore crawlers do not really work against the new Void Ray's Prismatic Alignment, and Protoss will tend to lead with HTs and Zealot/Archon first to clear any ground to air (hydras and spores) or any casters like Infestors or Vipers, with Archons and Void Rays as support. So, again, spores are irrelevant here.

Crawlers can really shut down Oracle and Phoenix harass. We both saw MLG, and the Zerg who did best used Crawlers both in PvZ, and TvZ vs Medevacs. The change to Pool requirement may subconsciously make them seem more viable to build, because the Zerg can save the 75 minerals needed for the Evo Chamber early... although that's obviously a weak argument so I'll move on.

Eh... yeah, as shown above, spore crawlers aren't really a concern to this particular build.

The 75 minerals "saved" is quite negligible too, because Zergs still need to build a 7 min evo chamber for upgrades, as Protoss is constantly chronoing attack upgrades, and there is a new trend in HOTS where you tend to go double forge in PvZ - unheard of in WOL, simply because of the presence of the Hydralisk with speed being a threat to Protoss units, while irrelevant in WOL. Also, more notably, Protoss uses 2 forges for attack and shields, especially when going for air units, so Zerg has to compete with that and get to 2-2 hydra/roach reasonably quick, so Zerg is not really "saving" anything by having Hatch tech spores. Single or double evo chambers are quite common against Protoss now.

Hydras have always crushed Gateway (Stalker/Zealot) as long as they've got Roaches or Lings to buffer, and they do decent vs Phoenix.

Correct, and that is not really a concern for the build I am describing because the only "gate unit" being used is the Zealot, and we all know how good chargelots are against hydras when supported by Archons and Storm.

The Void Ray was never strong against Hydras because they're classed as Light, and that's no different now with the VR change as it has only ever gained power against Armored. Thus, the solution to Hydras was always Colossi or Storm, and I propose the Speed upgrade is letting micro'ed Hydras simply survive better. Of course that would not nearly be enough on its own...

The important thing you missed here is that while VR are still vulnerable to Hydras, Protoss is not throwing JUST VRs at hydras... Hell, +1 chargelot/+1 VR alone in WOL TEARS through Hydra/ling or Hydra/roach armies like butter. Add in some photon cannons support and you cannot dent any of the VRs. In HOTS, VRs have significantly higher DPS against Hydras uncharged (they're like perpetually charged WOL VRs in their uncharged state), and that + Zealot/cannon/Archon support is enough to kill any hydra army, and even if you have roaches, they die WAAAY too quickly to be of any use as tanks... I have seen Liquid.Hero and WhiteRa run this build (FFE into 4gate/SG with VRs into 2x stargate + HT tech on 3 bases), and Zergs that went roach/hydra in direct engagements got ROFLSTOMPED hard, by them, on their stream.

Hydras CAN counter a mostly VR army, that's still correct from WOL to HOTS, but because Protoss players are smart enough to NOT just build VRs but mix them with Templar/Archon/Chargelot, that vacuum scenario does not really apply to a real game situation with this build...

The thing is even microed, Hydras are just too easily killed by non-VR units... While VRs are just too good against roaches... If a Zerg runs a Hydra/Roach build against a 2 stargate opening after FFE, he needs to use that composition PURELY for counter-attacking and sniping the Protoss' 3rd base for as along as possible, and then follow up with heavy drop play and multi-pronged attacks, because the REAL weakness of VRs, Archons and HTs is their speed and their inability to work efficiently in smaller numbers, especially in a split-army scenario.

THAT's what Zergs need to learn to exploit, that we have not seen yet, except from Leenock, TLO, Killer and Life.

... so Zerg makes Vipers to both tank Feedback so the Templar can't Storm as much,

Er... do you realize how much energy HTs have when they are engaging a Viper army? If I even only make 4 HTs and accumulate energy, by the time an engagement occurs with Vipers, I generally have FULL or almost full 200 energy... using even 4-5 Feedbacks still leaves me 2-3 storms... And generally, when you use this build, you tend to have about 6-8 HTs easily... So Feedbacks on Vipers isn't "tanking" anything for Zerg.

and to Abduct the Templar or Archons to instant death.

Eh, your Vipers are out of energy because they got fedback to death or near-death... at MOST you get to do 1 abduct or if you're lucky, 2. There is a huge 2 range difference between Abduct and Feedback casting ranges, btw. No way in hell are you going to be safe from HTs to even be able to land an abduct. You'll lose your vipers well before that point...

Place Blinding cloud on any Stalkers

Irrelevant to this build... You don't need stalkers with this build. You have VR/Archon/Storm as anti-air. And, if Zerg had gone Mutas instead of hydra/roach in midgame, you'd have APC upgraded +1 Phoenixes from 2 stargates chronoboosted... Stalkers are not needed.


Besides, you just got every single Viper fedback... you don't have energy for BC.

Suddenly Archive tech becomes a lot weaker.

This is SO not true... As shown above, Vipers are hard-countered by HTs.

Throw in some new faster, hyper-regenerating Mutalisks

...

You can't... You physically can't. You do not have enough geysers to support that on 3 bases, not even with a 4th barely saturated at minimum...

You just spent a gazillion gas on hydras, vipers and roaches... You are NOT getting mutalisks to do a theoretical "counter-attack". That's absurd.

to bait Photon Overcharge and keep the Protoss' Phoenix busy and his Stalkers in his base, and his expanding should then be slowed too.

No offense, but you do not know what you're talking about...

If Zerg opens muta/ling on 3 base, Protoss WILL scout it, and WILL respond with double stargate Phoenixes with +1, followed by a faster Fleet beacon which shits on HOTS mutas HARD. Stalkers aren't used with this double stargate style. Period.

Ultimately, as the Protoss transitions into Tempest/Carrier late-game, nothing really changes for the Zerg -

Except they just roll over and die, because Tempests snipe every caster Zerg has: Infestors, Vipers and queens, and Carrier/Archon/VR/HT just owns everything that comes in range from Lair AND Hive tech...

- Hydras are REALLY bad against Carrier/Tempest/Storm.
- Roaches aren't relevant at that stage and should be gone from Zerg's comp by then.
- Vipers, Infestors and Queens are too easily killed by Tempests at 15 range.
- Ultras cannot really counter-attack (unless dropped or nydused), and they cannot really come close to the Protoss army with the raw dps of VR/Archon/Carrier
- We all know how lings and banes fare.
- Mutas aren't really the answer since uber lategame mutas are garbage against this army.
- Corruptors are hard-countered by VRs alone, and there is still other stuff left that shoot air in that Protoss army...
- Swarm hosts are more of a midgame control mechanism unit that by then should be phased out, and they cannot shoot air, and are really fragile and supply inefficient units, so they are a liability on top of being easy to pwn

Zergs need to win their games in midgame against skytoss/templar, but damaging Protoss' eocnomy and production rate/tech rate, then exploit timings, because once this skytoss/templar/archon army appears, Zerg is essentially dead.

Abducting either Capital Ship results in its near immediate death from the Hydras.

Er... no. Vipers will get sniped by Tempests REALLY easily before they're even close to withing range of ANY unit in the Protoss army, not to mention HTs can still feedback them from 2 extra range.

My basis for all this? In Sase vs Bomber, Sase was abducting BC's and Ravens into his wall of Spore Crawlers and Hydra, and it was working pretty well.

lol... wtf?

Sase plays Protoss... Not Zerg.

You might be referring to Killer. The thing with Killer is that he was trading Vipers for Seeker Missile energy + every BC he abducted. That's an expensive trade... Not to mention that by the end Bomber was killing Vipers, Corruptors and hydras for 1 BC traded. That's a REALLY cost-efficient trade for him.

Against Protoss, Tempests negate this kind of interaction completely by sniping Vipers at 15 range before Vipers can even have sight of the Protoss' capital ships... lol.

HTs can feedback Vipers if the Tempests did not kill them yet. So, no. Even your example of Killer using Vipers for abduct on capital ships (with drastically lower range than carriers and tempests), is completely flawed.

Protoss =/= Terran, so you cannot really compare the two races' interactions with Vipers similarly.

So, to review: a Colossi-less late-game Protoss deathball composed of Carrier/Tempest/VR/HT/Archon/Stalker/Zealot is just not feasible.

Since Whitera, LiquidHero and Creator HAVE used this exact composition, minus the stalkers (except for the 1st ever stalker you build to harass Zerg with before ling speed is done), you're completely incorrect.

This composition is not only FEASIBLE but VIABLE, and has been for at least 4 months of HOTS Beta.

Also, it is a variant on a WOL build that was created a long time ago by Sidewinder on the bnet Protoss forums:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6036503726

In HOTS, you basically forgo the Mothership completely and focus on VRs + HT tech mostly, as VRs no longer suck in HOTS, compared to WOL. Also, you basically replace the Phoenix in that build with an Oracle (or you can choose to keep the Phoenix, if you will be playing uber turtle-y), and you basically add a 2nd stargate only after you get 4 gates started and +1 air and ground attack, and you tend to take a slightly faster 3rd (at around 9-10 mins) with MS Core + 4 VRs and cannon/chargelot defense + Photon overcharge. The 3rd is usually taken as you pressure with +1 VR/+1 zealot/MS Core at Zerg's 3rd to force out units and slow down droning. In Sidewinder's WOL build, you basically turtle, because this build competes with Zerg's macro pretty well by having a timely tech option that's beefy enough to push you into lategame tech quicker. In both cases, you can start making capital ships as soon as you take your 4th base (sometimes sooner, depending on the map).

You should check it out. The adapted build is more aggressive thanks to the MS Core, but essentially it is the same double stargate Void Ray + Templar tech + zealots as the core army in midgame.

There's only two options. One, the Protoss goes hard Archive - in which case Blinding Cloud shuts down the Stalker/Archon and the Vipers tank Feedbacks to minimize Storm, letting the Hydras hurl their DPS as the Protoss is harassed by Mutalisks.

Honestly Demosquid, you need to learn PvZ a little more... especially how Protoss and Zerg economies and techs work. You clearly do not know how they do...

You basically described an "everything" build up there... That's just not feasible due to gas limitations and how Protoss and Zerg economies work. Zerg basically delays his gas (while staying on 1 gas mostly) until his first 3 bases are saturated. Protoss cannot take a fast 3rd like Zerg without taking a big risk that Zerg is being passive or does not scout. In safe macro PvZ, Protoss is forced to get early gas and tech up to be able to do midgame pressure and allow themselves to take a 3rd behind that pressure to keep it safe. Even with MS Core, you still need a bunch of sentries and cannons to take a very fast 3rd, and that tends to be a mistake if Zerg opens midgame with hydra tech.

I highly recommend you play some PvZ to learn about its workings in order to familiarize yourself with what is feasible with each race, based on economy and tech timings.

Alternately, I could be crazy.

Unfortunately here, you do sound a little crazy :P You are clearly unfamiliar with modern PvZ, and especially in HOTS, I was assuming a lot of understood things about the matchup when discussing, but you clearly do not know the basics of this matchup, so it was a little hard to get my point across to you clearly. Hopefully, I did not feed you too much information :P

[DemolitionSquid]

I'll say 2 things.

1. I know I saw a very long TvZ with Vipers pulling BC's, thought it was Sase vs Bomber but apparently it wasn't Sase so I dunno.

2. I did mention the possibility I'm crazy, so at least I'm self aware.

[protoswarrior]

I'll say 2 things.

1. I know I saw a very long TvZ with Vipers pulling BC's, thought it was Sase vs Bomber but apparently it wasn't Sase so I dunno.

2. I did mention the possibility I'm crazy, so at least I'm self aware.

Oh noes, you are a Terminator sent back from the future to kill us!!

RUUUUUUUUN!