David Kim: HoTS thoughts (Mar 18-2013)

[TheEconomist]

No. Just no.

[protoswarrior]

Totally agree with the, "low risk-high reward" element of the Medi speed thing - Sounds like the Blizz team is going to let things play out, but when it comes time for a change, I dont see the Medi acceleration making it out in one piece.

Yeah, I really do not see "Speedvacs" being left intact for long. At the VERY least, the cooldown between boosts might be dramatically increased to prevent abuse, and the heavier nerf would be to limit boosts by making them cost energy every time = less healing energy. I am certain that Blizz devs want to watch what pros do at Code A and Code S at GSL, and maybe we'll see some interesting stuff at PAX (coming up soon), and maybe Dreamhack as well. So, we can expect maybe a month or so passing before Speedvacs are touched.

Carriers are pretty damn bad ass in Skytoss now. I've actually used them in 1v1. As opposed to WoL, where I only used them in team games. Thor are fine and the Oracle has those two spells separate for obvious reasons that shouldn't have to be explained.

Again Squibb, actually PLAYING the game works wonders in allowing you to know what dafuq you are talking about.

Yeah, the leash range AI fix makes ALL the difference with Carriers in HOTS. With Tempests being able to complement Carriers REALLY well now, by keeping casters like Infestors, HTs, Ravens and Ghosts at bay (by sniping them if they get too close to cast their respective spells), Carriers can be made to micro interceptors at 12 range - something that was IMPOSSIBLE in WOL, due to the sucky Interceptor AI. Carriers were used more like HP tanks against Corruptors and Infestor FG more than a DPS dealer (even though DPS is pretty high), and core damage was coming from supporting Archons and Psi-Storms while Carriers were practically just A-moved.

In HOTS, however, Carriers can be made to launch intercerptors (after Tempests clear the way), retreat back to leash range, micro individual carriers to take less damage from corruptors and vikings, while you other units pummeled them from every side. The carrier that can now be microed, and the interceptor flight AI being fixed as well since they have a tighter and more targeted flight path around area, makes it really powerful as a DPS dealer, and with Tempests + VRs being able to counter Corruptors, vikings, ravens, ghosts and Infestors, Carriers can actually end the game for someone who does not attack them at the right angle, or someone who does not whittle down the Carrier force.

It is a VERY different story from WOL where Carriers were basically 350/250 6 supply cannon-fodder...


On another note, I just wanted to elaborate a little on the Thor: it is a new unit in HOTS because it no longer has an energy bar, which makes them impervious to HT Feedback, and the 2 GTA modes gives the Thor some versatility in both TvZ and TvP. Also, with the Thor being more robust, it is a REALLY good replacement to the siege tank in TvP mech, because you can add Hellbats + Vikings + Mines + Ghosts or Ravens, and the Thors are now a core mech unit that can bring the hurt to a Protoss who has not switched out of Immortal/chargelot/Archon already... So, HOTS Thors are most definitely well designed compared to WOL, and are now units that fit perfectly into the Terran arsenal.

So, for TvZ Mech, Terrans can now choose to use siege tanks as their core unit, whereas in TvP mech, Thors should be their unit of choice for a core mech unit.

Having two abilities that are basically the same thing on one unit is stupid. It would be like giving the Ghost both EMP and Feedback.

Not a very convincing argument there... I explained in some detail why these 2 abilities are VERY different, not just slightly different. Your response is "it's stupid" without any actual explanation.

I think you need to elaborate a lot more to make your point heard, here. And the analogy to EMP + Feedback being on the ghost is actually totally incorrect. Revelation is nothing like Envision, and they serve no similar role.

- Envision is a detection spell cast on the Oracle ITSELF and requires that the Oracle moves around to detect anything within its vision range, and is restricted to that radius.
- Revelation is a vision spell and it does not detect anything, but it has the ability to potentially allow you to see things that you would not see with a regular observer scouting around a base, and you get to do that for ONE WHOLE MINUTE, which is super crazy. It is basically a legitimized Comsat-like maphack.... NOTHING like Envision at all, and the thing is, Revelation does NOT require the Oracle to be around after being cast, which is another big difference.

When you compare EMP and Feedback, they're very similar spells and they do the same things. Envision and Revelation do NOTHING alike.

And, not to be a douche, but I recommend you open up HOTS and play around with the new units and abilities more. There is a LOT you seem to be missing about the new units and their potential. You COULD wait for the pros to showcase things to you, but that means that your limited understanding of HOTS units (no offense) will stay that way for longer until their uses are revealed to you in pro-play several months down the road. It is always best to watch pro-play and apply the knowledge you get to what you already learned by playing the game prior to watching pro matches.

There are quite a few things different about seeing stats on units and seeing them in action and seeing the different interactions with the map and units of every race.

TheEconomist was a little hard on you (and I think he might be trolling you :P), but I think he may have a point in that you need to play the HOTS game more to learn about it accurately, and it will help you understand what you watch in pro play better as well, enhancing your viewing experience as an esports spectator.

I am sorry if that sounded a little harsh there...

[TheEconomist]

Wow, finally someone who's not tired and burned out of dealing with Squibb to put him in his place. You, sir, are my hero of the moment.

[RamiZ]

I agree with DK. We will see, but I have one thing to say. I enjoy watching HOTS games in comparison to the WOL. They are reminding me of the BW, in a sense that they are full of action, the players don't stop attacking each other, and always fight on multiple fronts. It is amazing, and so fun to watch. Not just that this MLG was the best MLG ever, but it also had a lot better games than the WHOLE WOL IMO, and I was watching a lot of WOL from the start.

Medivacs maybe need some tweaking, but I think that it is still too early to tell. I mean, both Protoss and Zerg players are crying a river, but to be quite honest, the only players that adapted to the HOTS(not including Terran players here) got way further than the others, and those players were MC, that was always opening with Stargate, Oracles and Phoenixes, and Life that played aggressive with 2 bases(or even with 1!) from the start with Lings and Banelings and didn't give Terran players to breath and have the chance to use Medivacs.

As DK said, nobody figured the game yet, there will be balance patches for sure, but the overall balance actually looks pretty good imo. I am Zerg player btw.

[protoswarrior]

I agree with DK. We will see, but I have one thing to say. I enjoy watching HOTS games in comparison to the WOL. They are reminding me of the BW, in a sense that they are full of action, the players don't stop attacking each other, and always fight on multiple fronts. It is amazing, and so fun to watch. Not just that this MLG was the best MLG ever, but it also had a lot better games than the WHOLE WOL IMO, and I was watching a lot of WOL from the start.

Medivacs maybe need some tweaking, but I think that it is still too early to tell. I mean, both Protoss and Zerg players are crying a river, but to be quite honest, the only players that adapted to the HOTS(not including Terran players here) got way further than the others, and those players were MC, that was always opening with Stargate, Oracles and Phoenixes, and Life that played aggressive with 2 bases(or even with 1!) from the start with Lings and Banelings and didn't give Terran players to breath and have the chance to use Medivacs.

As DK said, nobody figured the game yet, there will be balance patches for sure, but the overall balance actually looks pretty good imo. I am Zerg player btw.

You're so right, but the ONLY problem I have with speedvacs is that they pigeon-hole Protoss and Zerg to 1 build exactly, because others do not really work unless you are far better a player than the Terran. If speedvacs were toned down a little to allow more strategy from both races, I think it would be better for the game overall. Currently, Zerg is pinned to ling/bane/muta with a very aggressive style (almost Kyrix-like - yeah, remember him? :P ) and Protoss is forced to open 1 gate Stargate Oracle/Phoenix + Nexus, as the ONLY macro builds that can literally keep up with speedvac aggression... That's not a good thing for the game as a whole. Sure, right now speedvacs seem beaten, but that is mostly because Terrans are playing WOL style (on steroids) with a few Widow Mines scattered in between. Once Terrans start using HOTS builds we saw in Beta, it becomes hard to pull off 1 gate Stargate Nexus or ling bane muta, especially against a meching Terran or Bio-mech..

So, although I DO agree with the approach to "wait and see" by David Kim, I think speedvacs are one of those things that you look at and can conclude is a little too strong. Don't get me wrong: I LOVE that speedvacs introduce a new dimension to PvT and ZvT, but I think they need some risk introduced to their usage, that's all.

[RamiZ]

Yeah, but as I said, it is too early. I am pretty sure that there will be a lot of builds that can deal with Medivacs, not just those 2 from Protoss and Zerg perspective. A lot of Pro players just refuse to build static defense, for example Leenock. He lost 3-0 to Innovation, and in that game, he had 4 or 5 bases, and had 2 Spine Crawlers the whole game... I am Zerg player, and if Terran and Protoss have to waste Minerals on Static Defense to be able to deflect Mutas, why wouldn't you need to do that vs. Medivacs?

I also don't think that Zerg is forced to do that Ling/Bane/Muta, saw a lot of games with Roaches with burrow aggression that was very successful especially against greedy Terrans. Roach/Hydra/Vipers, Lings/Banelings/Swarm Hosts/Infestors.

People really aren't experimenting much. Idra said something on twitter. It was along the lines "Medivacs and Mines flying around blowing up stuff with speed of light is extremely fun to watch, we don't need nerfs, but something like that for Zerg and Protoss race.

And btw, Kyrix was actually known for mid game Lings and Banelings busts on 2 base, without Baneling speed. ;D

[The_Blade]

While I agree with DK on the unsettled meta, I'd like to post the following perspective against the current Medivac.

HotS has a stronger tendency than WoL towards aggressive matches. Protoss players will harass Zerg players for map and macro domination, getting ready for skytoss or the occasional deathball. Protoss' early stargate vs Terran will result in strong map domination and prevention of speedvac use. Terrans will try to dominate the mid-game with medivacs, and gain the advantage for mech-biomech plays. Zerg players have to play aggressive vs Protoss to stop them from playing skytoss and vs Terran to stop speedvacs and strong mech-biomech powerpushes.

If we assume there are no OP units, we will see an aggressive panorama. As a random player I've experienced most scenarios and noticed one thing. Zergs can't play aggressive at low costs. If he fails to be aggressive, a Zerg player will be outmacroed.

Let's talk Protoss first. If a Protoss opens FFE-Robo, he can do the following: expand, immortal-sentry, skytoss. The Protoss also has all the scouting resources to transition into any of the builds (sentries scout prior robo). If he sees a roach warren, he will go skytoss. He sees a third, immortal-sentry. Zerg goes air, Protoss expands and transitions into skytoss. Overlords will be sniped and this will keep the Zerg in the blind. Playing vs a Protoss in mid game is like playing vs a Random player early game. For example, hallucinated Oracles got me once and I invested in AA against a sentry-immortal all-in.

Now, Terran. Widow mines deal with most, if not all, zerg harassment tactics.

Zerg players have to commit to a single aggressive build (zergling, baneling, muta) in order to assume map domination over the other two races, and may no longer macro up in fear of early aggression from either race.

People really aren't experimenting much. Idra said something on twitter. It was along the lines "Medivacs and Mines flying around blowing up stuff with speed of light is extremely fun to watch, we don't need nerfs, but something like that for Zerg and Protoss race.

I have to agree with Idra on this, and would also like to see a better prepared Zerg vs aggressive plays.

[DemolitionSquid]

That you guys are comfortable with the Oracle saddens me. I can obviously see how you think Revelation and Envision are different, but at their base they are extremely similar. They have exactly 2 differences: range and detection. For me, that's not enough distinction to justify having them both exist on one unit, when they could easily be combined into a single ability. I'll admit a better example to compare with would be the Infestor. Instead of giving it both Ensnare and Plague, who's difference was movement impediment versus damage, Blizzard combined them to create a new ability - Fungal Growth. I believe that kind of unification is possible between Revelation and Envision because they are so similar in my eyes, and would result in a better unit with another 3rd ability to maximize versatility and unit potential. My goal with theoretical unit design has always had 3 prongs: purpose, versatility, and risk-vs-reward. For me, a unit must have defined roles in an army with minimal overlap, abilities that maximize its versatility and potential in all situations, and very clear strengths and weaknesses. While the Oracle is obviously powerful and useful in its current form, I just do not see it maximizing its potential versatility with two abilities that are so obviously similar.

[TheEconomist]

Play. The. Game.



Uggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggh

[The_Blade]

The only reason the oracle has detection is to help stargate players survive vs cloak without a robo. That's about it. The oracle is otherwise a very strong damage dealer with an army tracking skill. Five of them with the Mothership Core as a tank will cut through turrets like grass.

If you merge both skills into one, you remove cloak protection from a unit that depends on it for survival for a whole minute.