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Thread: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

  1. #11

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    Sometimes I really wish they'd stuck with the original idea of having all three races be more or less equal. Sure, at the beginning of the series the Terrans were weakest, but they were divided and unfocused.
    I don't know about the "being more or less equal" part. In Sc1, it was hard to see the Terrans as ever being the equal to the Protoss one-on-one, let alone one-one-one against the Zerg due to the disproportionate amount of power (technology and pure might for Protoss and numbers and weight for the Zerg) that each wielded against them and the fact that these two ancient races were built up to mythical proportions. The only time the 3 three races ever felt equal to me was the end of SC1 when the Protoss and the Zerg had expended their power solely against each other, weakening themselves in the process.

    Of course, BW then had to clarify that the Protoss were all but exterminated in that exchange and that the Zerg merely shrugged any damage the Protoss did, off. The Terrans only start becoming a power-player amongst those two when they get a shot in the arm through the UED since Mengsk and the Dominion alone turn out to be a wet blanket when they are defeated quite easily by them. So much for his being Emperor and unifying the Terrans so that they'd be powerful enough against the two alien threats, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    The same reasoning is why we almost never get any PvT in the campaigns.
    Are you sure it's not just lack of imagination? WoLs PvT missions certainly seems to indicate such a thing.

    Besides, I think the initial lore itself is partly to blame when it comes to lack of Protoss vs Terran action. We initially have to look at how the Dae'uhl prevents direct Protoss action against the Terrans and even then, when the Zerg came, where they had to relax their rules a little, they still kept at arms length by calmly incinerating Terran planets from on high. It was only through Tassadar that we got any PvT action. Now that he's gone, I wouldn't think the rest of the Protoss would deign it worthy to engage the worthless Terrans in a field of battle. On the flip side, the Terrans couldn't be expected to initiate much action against the Protoss at the time because they were illusive and utterly alien to them - they wouldn't have known where to start and if they did, the Protoss would have had the jump on them.
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  2. #12

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I don't know about the "being more or less equal" part. In Sc1, it was hard to see the Terrans as ever being the equal to the Protoss one-on-one, let alone one-one-one against the Zerg due to the disproportionate amount of power (technology and pure might for Protoss and numbers and weight for the Zerg) that each wielded against them and the fact that these two ancient races were built up to mythical proportions. The only time the 3 three races ever felt equal to me was the end of SC1 when the Protoss and the Zerg had expended their power solely against each other, weakening themselves in the process.

    Of course, BW then had to clarify that the Protoss were all but exterminated in that exchange and that the Zerg merely shrugged any damage the Protoss did, off. The Terrans only start becoming a power-player amongst those two when they get a shot in the arm through the UED since Mengsk and the Dominion alone turn out to be a wet blanket when they are defeated quite easily by them. So much for his being Emperor and unifying the Terrans so that they'd be powerful enough against the two alien threats, right?
    Quite. I am also perfectly willing to admit that there's little to no justification for my perception that the three races were of comparable strength. I think the back of the game box advertised the game as being three powerful races at war or something, that may be where twelve-year old me cooked up the idea. But yeah, evidently the writers decided not to go that route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Are you sure it's not just lack of imagination? WoLs PvT missions certainly seems to indicate such a thing.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Tal'darim were created just to let Raynor fight Protoss without hesitation. Which is fair, but is also part of the reason why I don't think Raynor should have been the point of view character in Wings of Liberty.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
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  3. #13

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProgramer View Post
    Terrans were able to domesticate (or perhaps a better word would be control) the Zerg, and had them completly under their power, to the point where Terrans and Zerg were fighting side by side - their buildings were sharing the same base area.
    A dog is domesticated. When you turn your back for five minutes, it doesn't turn around and slaughter the neighborhood.
    So, yes, control is a better word.

    Anyhow, I think the Protoss are wise and experienced enough to not want to control the Zerg. First the Confederacy, then Mengsk, then the UED sought to use the Zerg as weapons, but it didn't work out for them. Even controlling the Zerg with the captured Overmind was a dicey proposition. And when you lose control, you reap the harvest you have sown.

    The Protoss are non-interventionalists (not pacifists), so they don't have any enemies to sic the Zerg on. And the Zerg are a weapon that needs to be used; you can't just leave them lying around.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProgramer View Post
    Any stray Zerg attempt to regain control of the swarm was pacified by an device (PSI DISRUPTER). If it wern't for other Terrans destorying the DIUSRUPTER - and providing a Zerg entity (Kerrigan) the counter-device (the PSI EMMITER) the Terrans would remain the domesticators of the Zerg! A feat the Protoss couldnt' acheive - they had to sacrfice EVERYTHING they held dear ... twice ... just to hold the Zerg at bay - not even removing them as a threat entirely.
    That's the difference between being harvested for biomass/psionics (Terran) and facing the brunt of the Overmind's wrath (Protoss).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Despite being a human myself (as far as you know...),
    As am I, fellow meatbag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Not that I'm complaining per se. I've said good and bad things about HotS, and one thing I will say is that it's kind of BWish, reminding us that "okay terrans, you had your fun in WoL, now get back in your place you insignificant little creatures" (that's actually a net pro kind of). Unless the UED makes a return (which I'm not exactly rooting for), I don't see the terrans ever really being a true contender against the zerg or protoss anytime soon.
    Now I'm actually excited to play HotS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Of course, BW then had to clarify that the Protoss were all but exterminated in that exchange and that the Zerg merely shrugged any damage the Protoss did, off.
    I think "Shrugged off" is a little too strong. The Zerg were splintered into factions and the Zerg too far away from Char apparently turned feral. They recovered quickly because... well, that's what the Zerg are.

    Now, here's something I've been thinking about. The Zerg were searching for Auir for millenia, correct? That's how much time the Zerg had to build up the Swarm.

    To me, that means that they should have had enough Zerglings to carpet Auir three layers deep, even if the Protoss fleets were defending the planet.
    So, did the Protoss have multiple colonies, and did the Zerg launch a simultaneous attack on most of them?

  4. #14

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirel View Post
    Now, here's something I've been thinking about. The Zerg were searching for Auir for millenia, correct? That's how much time the Zerg had to build up the Swarm.

    To me, that means that they should have had enough Zerglings to carpet Auir three layers deep, even if the Protoss fleets were defending the planet.
    So, did the Protoss have multiple colonies, and did the Zerg launch a simultaneous attack on most of them?
    I would imagine that yes, the Protoss had more colonies, and yes, they were also attacked. But, according to the Starcraft manual... well, there weren't very many Zerg at all. The largest Brood, Tiamat, had only a population of ~6,500,000. And there were, what, ~10 broods total? Some with only tens of thousands? That's tiny (California alone has a population of ~40,000,000, larger than the entire Zerg Swarm at the time of SC1). The Zerg apparently either weren't building up an army at all or never bothered to colonize any planets at all, and just drifted around through space until the events of original SC. Weird numbers all around.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robear View Post
    I would imagine that yes, the Protoss had more colonies, and yes, they were also attacked. But, according to the Starcraft manual... well, there weren't very many Zerg at all. The largest Brood, Tiamat, had only a population of ~6,500,000. And there were, what, ~10 broods total? Some with only tens of thousands? That's tiny (California alone has a population of ~40,000,000, larger than the entire Zerg Swarm at the time of SC1). The Zerg apparently either weren't building up an army at all or never bothered to colonize any planets at all, and just drifted around through space until the events of original SC. Weird numbers all around.
    Ugh, that really doesn't make sense.

    Perhaps it's only counting Overlords and Queens? Or hatcheries controlled by each Brood?

  6. #16

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon
    In Sc1, it was hard to see the Terrans as ever being the equal to the Protoss one-on-one, let alone one-one-one against the Zerg
    I think you've got that backwards. 1 vs. 1, the average terran is going to beat the average zerg. Of course, on average, the chances of numbers being 1 on 1 are about as slim as a flatworm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon
    Now that he's gone, I wouldn't think the rest of the Protoss would deign it worthy to engage the worthless Terrans in a field of battle.
    They've had a few, and they've usually ended badly for the Dominion (e.g. Artika and Project Gestalt). End of the day, the average protoss doesn't really care about what the terrans are up to. In return, the average Dominion citizen will fear the protoss and believe that Mengsk is the only one keeping them at bay. Works well for both races really.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar
    Quite. I am also perfectly willing to admit that there's little to no justification for my perception that the three races were of comparable strength. I think the back of the game box advertised the game as being three powerful races at war or something, that may be where twelve-year old me cooked up the idea. But yeah, evidently the writers decided not to go that route.
    Actually, it's still valid. The boardgames repeatedly establish the races to be the three most powerful in the galaxy. Keyword though, is "races." We've got four terran governments, three branches of protoss, and only one branch of zerg that's reunified as a single force at the end of HotS. The zerg will continue to be top of the food chain unless LotV alters the status quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirel
    The Zerg were searching for Auir for millenia, correct?
    Probably for more like centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirel
    So, did the Protoss have multiple colonies, and did the Zerg launch a simultaneous attack on most of them?
    Multiple ones. Most however, were lost to the zerg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robear
    But, according to the Starcraft manual... well, there weren't very many Zerg at all. The largest Brood, Tiamat, had only a population of ~6,500,000. And there were, what, ~10 broods total? Some with only tens of thousands? That's tiny (California alone has a population of ~40,000,000, larger than the entire Zerg Swarm at the time of SC1). The Zerg apparently either weren't building up an army at all or never bothered to colonize any planets at all, and just drifted around through space until the events of original SC. Weird numbers all around.
    There's almost certainly other broods besides the ten we know that were active during GW. And we know that the zerg don't really bother to colonize planets - they go in, assimilate what they want, erradicate what they don't, then move on. May be some stragglers from time to time ala Aiur or Urona Sigma, but they're the exceptions rather than the rule.
    Last edited by Hawki; 03-19-2013 at 05:55 PM.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robear View Post
    I would imagine that yes, the Protoss had more colonies, and yes, they were also attacked. But, according to the Starcraft manual... well, there weren't very many Zerg at all. The largest Brood, Tiamat, had only a population of ~6,500,000. And there were, what, ~10 broods total? Some with only tens of thousands? That's tiny (California alone has a population of ~40,000,000, larger than the entire Zerg Swarm at the time of SC1). The Zerg apparently either weren't building up an army at all or never bothered to colonize any planets at all, and just drifted around through space until the events of original SC. Weird numbers all around.
    I always imagined it had to do with logistics. Maintaining a vast army fed and ready for battle requires a lot of energy. We know that from a single Drone we can develop an entire Zerg army in a very short time, so there's little reason for the Swarm to expend its energy maintaining too many at a time. As I believe Abathur said (I don't have a dialogue reference, unfortunately) the Zerg are all about efficiency. I imagined that they travelled with the minimum number of Zerg necessary to ensure its survival against all threats, then multiplied on-site if they needed more units. And once their use was done, I suppose the other Zerg would cannibalise the now superfluous units, or else they'd go into hibernation until they were needed again.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  8. #18

    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Besides, I think the initial lore itself is partly to blame when it comes to lack of Protoss vs Terran action. We initially have to look at how the Dae'uhl prevents direct Protoss action against the Terrans and even then, when the Zerg came, where they had to relax their rules a little, they still kept at arms length by calmly incinerating Terran planets from on high. It was only through Tassadar that we got any PvT action. Now that he's gone, I wouldn't think the rest of the Protoss would deign it worthy to engage the worthless Terrans in a field of battle.
    A lot of the conflict in StarCraft is plain unnecessary.

    In SCI, the zerg were done with the terrans the moment they got Kerrigan. Most of episode II involved fighting protoss. They only fought terrans because Raynor and Mengsk (Duke) came after them in order to get Kerrigan back (or dead). Episode III featured a single mini-battle, plus a funny cinematic, where some stupid Duke goons got ganked.

    The protoss never really had a good reason to fight the terrans. The terrans were just "in the way". The real war was between the protoss and zerg. If Raynor hadn't gotten involved with the protoss, it's possible the Dominion would simply have treated the protoss as a "bogeyman". (In fact, they do. How often does the Dominion pick a fight with the protoss? It's rare, and generally pointless.)

    Brood War was a bit different. The UED really shook things up, even going after the protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirel
    Now, here's something I've been thinking about. The Zerg were searching for Auir for millenia, correct? That's how much time the Zerg had to build up the Swarm.

    To me, that means that they should have had enough Zerglings to carpet Auir three layers deep, even if the Protoss fleets were defending the planet.
    So, did the Protoss have multiple colonies, and did the Zerg launch a simultaneous attack on most of them?
    The protoss actually did have multiple colonies, and in the Mothership short story we saw one under attack. However, the majority of the Swarm headed straight to Aiur, which incidentally was the central strongpoint of the most powerful race (at the time) in that section of the galaxy. Zerg losses must have been massive, with Conclave strategy playing a key role in protoss defeats. The Great Fleet got wiped out, no doubt taking out a huge glut of zerg while doing so. Also the Overmind wanted to die.

    I think you can even take a point from the multiplayer game itself. Zerg units aren't just individually weaker. I think 200 control worth of zerg are weaker than 200 supply worth of protoss. It's just that zerg have more flexibility in their tech trees (both in and out of lore; you can't train a marine in 20 seconds, you need ~18 years to replenish a fallen marine) and also zerg can repopulate really fast, letting zerg constantly create massive swarms, throw them away and try it again. This is why zerg vespene inefficiency drives me crazy. You can make new minions, but not new vespene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robear
    I would imagine that yes, the Protoss had more colonies, and yes, they were also attacked. But, according to the Starcraft manual... well, there weren't very many Zerg at all. The largest Brood, Tiamat, had only a population of ~6,500,000. And there were, what, ~10 broods total? Some with only tens of thousands? That's tiny (California alone has a population of ~40,000,000, larger than the entire Zerg Swarm at the time of SC1). The Zerg apparently either weren't building up an army at all or never bothered to colonize any planets at all, and just drifted around through space until the events of original SC. Weird numbers all around.
    There were lots of broods. The manual never suggested there were only eight or fewer broods. We were just given info on the largest or most interesting broods.
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  9. #19
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    I subscribe to the school of thought that the Zerg & Protoss were titanic powers before SC1, much like the UED, and that the battle of Aiur brought both of these races down to Koprulu Terran level. Billions of protoss would have rallied back to Aiur from the colony worlds, and the swarm has been absorbing new species for centuries (the number figures for the broods in the manual are BS). Basically, they broke their teeth against each other, and the battle of Aiur was the most cataclysmic battle in all of SC history.

    IMHO.

  10. #20
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Terrans are the ultimate beings in the SC Universe.

    Ahhhhh, remember when the SC universe had consequences? Good times.
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 03-20-2013 at 07:01 AM.



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