Gradius's HoTS Story Review

[TSCR]

You're straw-manning me. This is not what I said!

The lore that exists beforehand, as in the end of Sc1, ends with a Protoss victory and the return of some semblance of balance. From that point, it is conceivable that the Protoss could have continued pressing the advantage they gained. FT does have a viable point. It is a logical assumption to make at that particular moment in time.

I'm not saying that it can't be written later to show that the Zerg were in fact not really harmed that much or were always more powerful than the Zerg as BW actually shows, nor am I saying that it's not possible that the Protoss had a Phyrric or non-Phyrric victory.

Then I don't even see what point you're trying to make.

I never said the route Blizzard took was the only possibility. Just because something is implied does not mean it is definite. There's always a degree of subjectiveness behind the idea of something being 'implied'. What I'm saying is that they didn't retcon the hell out of their previous story (they even specifically wrote 'began' instead of 'continue' to acknowledge there was a ceasefire) so I don't find anything wrong with how they wrote the prologue in Brood War.

To what extent indeed? I'm going to contend that, given all the Aiur-related I quotes I put in my last post, being forced to evacuate Aiur or face annihilation at the hands of a broken enemy does not count as a victory to any extent. Especially if this happens mere days after the battlefields fall silent and the Protoss are victorious.

Your position that the victory claimed in the epilogue refers only to the slaying of the Overmind is not really reasonable. By that reasoning, you could have seen such an 'epilogue' after any mission in the game, but we did not, and for good cause. You said to Turalyon that works of fiction do not need to abide by 'scientific laws', and I would agree with you on this. However, as a work of storytelling, it does need to abide by narrative structure (I mean, technically it doesn't, but I think we can all agree that StarCraft isn't some form of avant-garde literature). This is literally titled "Epilogue". It is structurally and thematically framed as an ending of the entire The Fall campaign and the StarCraft story as a whole. It is intended to bring closure on the focal conflict of this story, which was the invasion of Aiur (and also seed a sequel, that's the bit about Kerrigan's ascension).

Arguably it is if you look at the whole picture.

1. The Overmind was unable to assimilate Protoss DNA into the Swarm thus preventing the Zerg from becoming perfect. So the Protoss did help save 'all that exist'.
2. The Protoss race is together again, Khalai and Dark Templar. Aiur was supposed to be the homeworld of all the Protoss, not just the Khalai. Now since both the factions are living together on Shakuras it can be argued in a way that Aiur was 'saved'.

I know this doesn't sound like your typical victory but that's what I meant by the Protoss achieving a Pyrrhic victory:

A Pyrrhic victory is a victory with such a devastating cost that it carries the implication that another such victory will ultimately lead to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has been victorious in some way; however, the heavy toll negates any sense of achievement or profit.

The first sentence references what happens if the outcome on Shakuras was the same as that on Aiur.

The second sentence references the Protoss' loss of Aiur. However it also references the fact that the two factions were bought back otgether and the Overmind's ultimate goal was thwarted.

Narratively, the fate of leaderless Zerg is established in-story in the Zerg mission The Culling where feral Zerg are established to be a threat to the Swarm and need to be destroyed by the Zerg themselves. This is what we are to expect from the death of the Overmind. The Zerg may still be numerous, but they are uncoordinated while the Protoss are more united than ever, they are completely berserk and lacking in overall vision, and most importantly a threat to themselves as much as to anyone else. This is also reinforced in the mission immediate preceding the Overmind's death, Shadow Hunters, where Cerebrates are killed and the leaderless Zerg then turn on the Swarm, tearing down the Overmind's defences and allowing a way through for the Protoss.

Sure they are but I guess the zerg were just in such large numbers it didn't matter who they attacked.

You say that, but do you have any evidence from StarCraft itself to support this notion? You keep quoting Brood War instead.

But that's the problem. There's not much evidence in StarCraft that this is the case however there isn't much information to establish it's not the case. With all the fallacy laws, you can say this is incoherent but that's what I mean when I say a fictional world is a world of liberties. Maybe Blizzard just hadn't thought of how Brood War was going to begin so that's why they left the original game's story's ending quite broad? I mean you can't expect everything to be foreshadowed can you? In a creative process, adjustments always occur.

I think you answered your own question and made my point for me, but if you would permit me, I'll rephrase what you just asked to make it clearer: "If the two sides were evenly matched, then why did one side's leader have to die to kill the other side's leader? Why didn't they just secure a definite victory?"

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. What I'm basically saying is that the end of StarCraft was left pretty broad so it's impossible to determine how the battles were going elsewhere. For example what was the Conclave doing while you assualted the Overmind? How were they going in battle? Blizzard didn't make that clear until Brood War. I don't see why you keep limiting yourself to StarCraft. As I said earlier, you can't expect everything to be foreshadowed. Tassadar's forces was just the Executor's Fleet, Raynor's Raiders, perhaps Fenix's men and some Dark Templar. That's it. There were still heaps of other forces but there fate was left open.

You may argue that the battlefield of Tassadar, the Protoss and the Zerg were evenly matched but that doesn't mean overall they were evenly matched across every battlefield of Aiur. In fact judging by how the Conclave kept wasting time trying to arrest Tassadar, I find it more plausible that everywhere else the Protoss were at a disadvantage. Don't forget only Tasssadar, as far as we know, had the Dark Templar with him yet he still said that they had suffered heavy casualties while trying to reach the Overmind. Every other Protoss force had to fight against the never-ending army of the Zerg and probably suffered greater casualties. Perhaps that's why the Conclave didn't send you any backup much to Raynor's dismay?

I still don't see what's wrong with using Brood War. I think it gets too much flak. I remember reading your review for the StarCraft and Brood War campaigns yesterday and I wanted to reply to you on a couple of things but that thread was locked.

One thing was that you didn't see the purpose of Kerrigan going to Shakuras in the Protoss Campaign. Wasn't that just to gain the Protoss' trust? She needed them to destroy the Overmind. She was trying to gain their trust. She didn't always plan to kidnap the Matriarch to get the Dark Templar to kill it.

Another thing is that you didn't see why Zeratul didn't kill Kerrigan after she killed Aldaris. That can be explained by the dialogue in the mission briefing:

Raszagal
All too certain, young templar. Executor, as Matriarch of the Dark Templar and custodian of this world, I hereby order you to terminate Judicator Aldaris, and quell this untimely uprising without delay! There will be no dissent among us while the Zerg are poised to strike!

Zeratul
There is something amiss here. The Matriarch has always been a wise and gentle soul. Though there is some merit in her decision, this is very unlike her.

Artanis
That may well be... But right now we have a friend to kill. May Adun forgive us.

The Matriarch orders the two to kill Aldaris when they find him but that's not what Zeratul did:

ZERATUL
It is finished, Judicator. Surrender your remaining forces, and join us in eradicating the Zerg.

Why is Zeratul asking Aldaris to join them? That wasn't his order. Zeratul is disobeying orders. In other words he's pulling a Tassadar. I'm not saying he's trying to start the same kind of rebellion agains the Matriarch. He probably believes he can convince the Matriarch to change her mind if he brings back Aldaris peacefully. The Matriarch was 'wise and gentle soul' after all.

However the fact remains that Zeratul was disobeying the Matriarch's orders and it must have hurt him to disobey someone who he had trusted for so long. Then Kerrigan comes along and kills Aldaris:

ZERATUL
Kerrigan... What have you done?

KERRIGAN
I just cleaned up your mess, Protoss. Don't be so squeamish.

The irony is striking. Kerrigan is actually right. She did clean up their mess. The Matriarch wanted Aldaris dead. She did not want him to be rejoin their cause. Zeratul disobeyed her and ironically Kerrigan obeyed her. That's why Zeratul let her go. He may have been tempted to kill her but Kerrigan had a point. It would be dishonourable for him to kill her then.

[FanaticTemplar]

Arguably it is if you look at the whole picture.

1. The Overmind was unable to assimilate Protoss DNA into the Swarm thus preventing the Zerg from becoming perfect. So the Protoss do help save 'all that exist'.
2. The Protoss race is together again, Khalai and Dark Templar. Aiur was supposed to be the homeworld of all the Protoss, not just the Khalai. Now since both the factions are living together on Shakuras it can be argued in a way that Aiur was 'saved'.

I know this doesn't sound like your typical victory but that's what I meant by the Protoss achieving a Pyrrhic victory:

Actually, it's not a victory by the stakes set up by the narrative. Again, Aiur quotes everywhere. The scope for the mission in question explicitly sets the stakes at Aiur shall not fall. And if this victory were about uniting the Templar, Judicator and Dark Templar, this already happened at the beginning of Eye of the Storm. By your standards the epilogue could have happened then. But obviously it didn't, because that's not what it was about.

Sure they are but I guess the zerg were just in such large numbers it didn't matter who they attacked.

Yes, that's one of the major problems of the Brood War retcon in massively overpowering the Zerg. It's why multiple plot devices are necessary to make a fight with the Zerg last even three missions in StarCraft II. But this was not the case in the original.

But that's the problem. There's not much evidence in StarCraft that this is the case however there isn't much information to establish it is not the case.

Actually there is, and this is your problem. The game explicitly states that the battle ended with one side victorious and the other broken. You keep trying to convince me that this actually means the opposite of what it says, and that's why you need evidence. I, on the other hand, don't need to demonstrate that this means exactly what it says. This is not a flawed point-of-view, this is an omniscient narrator expositing the concluding situation. This is clearly how the story ends. Unless you have evidence to contradict it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. What I'm basically saying is that the end of StarCraft was left pretty broad so it's impossible to determine how the battles were going elsewhere. For example what was the Conclave doing while you assualted the Overmind? How were they going in battle? Blizzard didn't make that clear until Brood War. I don't see why you keep limiting yourself to StarCraft. As I said earlier, you can't expect everything to be foreshadowed. Tassadar's forces was just the Executor's Fleet, Raynor's Raiders, perhaps Fenix's men and some Dark Templar. That's it. There were still heaps of other forces but there fate was left open.

Wait, what's your basis for this assertion? The Executor is the supreme commander of the Templar forces. They had the Conclave's blessing. I have no idea why you would expect them to not have as many forces as they needed for their decisive move.

You may argue that the battlefield of Tassadar, the Protoss and the Zerg were evenly matched

No, no. The Protoss and the Zerg, as species, were evenly matched. This is thematic to the game. They were opposite but equal halves of the perfect beings the Xel'Naga sought to create. And the Terrans were the determinant to tipping the odds one way or the other. The Zerg infested Kerrigan, and she became the Overmind's greatest creation, to eventually ascend to supremacy over the Swarm itself. The Protoss, meanwhile, earned the friendship of James Raynor, and he fought at their side in the battle against the Overmind, where the Protoss finally emerged victorious.

Every other Protoss force had to fight against the never-ending army of the Zerg and probably suffered greater casualties. Perhaps that's why the Conclave didn't send you any backup much to Raynor's dismay?

Every other Protoss force had been fighting the never-ending army of the Zerg since the campaign began, and were pulling out even. When the Protoss reinforce Antioch, Scion falls to the Zerg. When the Protoss reclaim Scion, the Zerg conquer Antioch. Again, you can see the parallels. Also, I have no idea why you believe the Conclave didn't send any backup in the final battle. The only Judicator unit in the game is the Arbiter, and those were available.

I still don't see what's wrong with using Brood War. I think it gets too much flak. I remember reading your review for the StarCraft and Brood War campaigns yesterday and I wanted to reply to you on a couple of things but that thread was locked.

One thing was that you didn't see the purpose of Kerrigan going to Shakuras in the Protoss Campaign. Wasn't that jsut to gain the Protoss' trust? She needed them to destroy the Overmind. She was trying to gain their trust. She didn't always plan to kidnap the Matriarch to get the Dark Templar to kill it.

If so, she failed utterly.

Another thing is that you didn't see why Zeratul didn't kill Kerrigan after she killed Aldaris. That can be explained by the dialogue in the mission briefing:

Raszagal
All too certain, young templar. Executor, as Matriarch of the Dark Templar and custodian of this world, I hereby order you to terminate Judicator Aldaris, and quell this untimely uprising without delay! There will be no dissent among us while the Zerg are poised to strike!

Zeratul
There is something amiss here. The Matriarch has always been a wise and gentle soul. Though there is some merit in her decision, this is very unlike her.

Artanis
That may well be... But right now we have a friend to kill. May Adun forgive us.

The Matriarch orders the two to kill Aldaris when they find him but that's not what Zeratul did:

ZERATUL
It is finished, Judicator. Surrender your remaining forces, and join us in eradicating the Zerg.

Why is Zeratul asking Aldaris to join them? That wasn't his orders. Zeratul is disobeying orders. In other words he's pulling a Tassadar. I'm not saying he's trying to start the same kind of rebellion agains the Matriarch. He probably believes he can convince the Matriarch to change her mind if he brings back Aldaris peacefully. The Matriarch was 'wise and gentle soul' after all.

However the fact remains that Zeratul was disobeying the Matriarch's orders and it must have hurt him to disobey someone who he had trusted for so long. Then Kerrigan comes along and kills Aldaris:

ZERATUL
Kerrigan... What have you done?

KERRIGAN
I just cleaned up your mess, Protoss. Don't be so squeamish.

The irony is striking. Kerrigan is actually right. She did clean up their mess. The Matriarch wanted Aldaris dead. She did not want him to be rejoin their cause. Zeratul disobeyed her and ironically Kerrigan obeyed her. That's why Zeratul let her go. He may have been tempted to kill her but Kerrigan had a point. It would be dishonourable for him to kill her then.

She's the greatest criminal against the Protoss species still alive, whom Zeratul himself calls an enemy to all who live, who has just murdered a respected Protoss leader, confessed to having merely been 'using' the Protoss, and threatened them. And Zeratul can't execute her because she killed someone he didn't want to kill? Even if I were to accept that, then he could still have thrown her in a cell.

[TSCR]

Actually, it's not a victory by the stakes set up by the narrative. Again, Aiur quotes everywhere. The scope for the mission in question explicitly sets the stakes at Aiur shall not fall. And if this victory were about uniting the Templar, Judicator and Dark Templar, this already happened at the beginning of Eye of the Storm. By your standards the epilogue could have happened then. But obviously it didn't, because that's not what it was about.

I repeat it was a Pyrrhic victory. It's when you achieve some of your goals but not all of them. Guess what? Saving Aiur was not the Protoss' only goal. That's was the Conclave's only goal or at least they believed it to be.

This is explained in Shadow Hunters:

Tassadar
En Taro Adun, Executor! My gratitude to you, for having secured my release, knows no bounds. By all the gods, we may win yet! The time has come to let loose the fury of the Dark Templar. Zeratul, perhaps the time has come to tell our friends of the foe we face.

Zeratul
Indeed. When I slew the Cerebrate on Char, I touched briefly with the essence of the Overmind. In that instant, my mind was filled with its thoughts, and I tell you now our worst fears have come true.

The Zerg were indeed created by the ancient Xel'Naga, the same beings that empowered us in our infancy. But the Overmind grew beyond their constraints, and has at last come to finish the experiments they began so long ago.

Tassadar
So you see my friends, we fight not only to save Aiur, but all creation! If we fall to the Zerg then the Overmind will run rampant throughout the stars, consuming all sentience-all life. It is up to us to put an end to this madness, once and for all.

Fenix
Our forces shall engage the primary Zerg Hive clusters in an attempt to weaken their defenses. Once their numbers have thinned out, Zeratul and his companions can infiltrate the clusters and assassinate the Cerebrates. Adun willing, the Cerebrates' deaths will distract the Overmind long enough for us to assault it directly.

Tassadar all along knew about the Overmind's goal. He just never got a chance to explain it due to all the drama that was occuring. Tassadar stopped the Overmind from assimilating Protoss into the Swarm. Arguabely he was unable to save Aiur. This is Pyrrhic victory. What would else would you call this? Sure saving Aiur may have been the goal that the Protoss were most emotionally invested in but that's the whole point of a Pyrrhic victory. You achieve some of your goals but not the others (even if they were the goals you preferred to have achieved).

'Pyrrhic victory' is the literary term for this concept. Perhaps Blizzard should have just written Pyrrhic victory but that was what they were getting at all along.

The epilogue did not occur until after the death of the Overmind because it was the death of the Overmind that would eliminate the possibility of Protoss from being assimilated into the Swarm.

Actually there is, and this is your problem. The game explicitly states that the battle ended with one side victorious and the other broken. You keep trying to convince me that this actually means the opposite of what it says, and that's why you need evidence. I, on the other hand, don't need to demonstrate that this means exactly what it says. This is not a flawed point-of-view, this is an omniscient narrator expositing the concluding situation. This is clearly how the story ends. Unless you have evidence to contradict it.

EPILOGUE

As the chaotic, swirling energies subsided, a heavy silence settled over the battlefields of Aiur. Due to Tassadar's noble sacrifice, the Overmind was now dead and the Zerg Swarms were scattered and broken. But as the heroes surveyed their once glorious homeland, they realized that their victory had cost them all but their lives. Aiur was left nothing more than a smoldering ruin. Those few Protoss who survived the final battle could only wonder what the future would hold for their race.

And far away, on the distant planet Char, Kerrigan, the self-styled Queen of Blades, knew that the time of her ascension was at hand.

It was never stated why there was a silence across the battlefields. You made an assumption that the Protoss had achieved total victory over Aiur but I think it is because the Zerg had just lost their link to the Overmind and were indecisive at that point. What evidence do you have that your opinion is better than mine especially considering that it is never stated why there was a silence across the battlefield? It's left open to interpretation and an answer cannot truly be given until Brood War.

Above all this it is stated that their victory had cost them all but their lives. If it had cost them that much then doesn't it also mean that their victory had cost them Aiur as well?

Wait, what's your basis for this assertion? The Executor is the supreme commander of the Templar forces. They had the Conclave's blessing. I have no idea why you would expect them to not have as many forces as they needed for their decisive move.

The way Blizzard portrayed their missions. In all previous missions, whenever you recieved backup you saw it come to you on-screen e.g. when Daggoth gave us his Hunter Killers we saw them on screen etc. When Mengsk sent his dropships we saw them on-screen. The Conclave only conceded at the start of the mission so if they sent backup we should have seen it on screen. We didn't and that means they didn't send us backup. The only Protoss I saw were the ones that came out of my infrastructure and I doubt those were from the Conclave because that's where all the Protoss I had been using in my rebellion against the Conclave had come from.

No, no. The Protoss and the Zerg, as species, were evenly matched. This is thematic to the game. They were opposite but equal halves of the perfect beings the Xel'Naga sought to create. And the Terrans were the determinant to tipping the odds one way or the other. The Zerg infested Kerrigan, and she became the Overmind's greatest creation, to eventually ascend to supremacy over the Swarm itself. The Protoss, meanwhile, earned the friendship of James Raynor, and he fought at their side in the battle against the Overmind, where the Protoss finally emerged victorious.

Yes they were thematically equal but the zerg launched a sneak attack so they had the advantage from the start. Then the Conclave wasted there time throwing away troops to punish Tassadar. During this entire time not a single Cerebrate on Aiur was killed. It's similar to how you'll mostly lose a ladder match (against a player of equal skill) if some zerglings run into your base and destroy some of your economy from the start. Honestly the Zerg had the advantage for most of the battle. It makes sense that they greatly outnumbered the Protoss even after the Overmind was killed.

Every other Protoss force had been fighting the never-ending army of the Zerg since the campaign began, and were pulling out even. When the Protoss reinforce Antioch, Scion falls to the Zerg. When the Protoss reclaim Scion, the Zerg conquer Antioch. Again, you can see the parallels. Also, I have no idea why you believe the Conclave didn't send any backup in the final battle. The only Judicator unit in the game is the Arbiter, and those were available.

Yes but unlike the Zerg, the Protoss cannot revive their fallen as well as them. No matter how many Cerebrates were killed, they were just reincarnated by the Overmind. Whenever a Templar was killed he was probably gone for good. The Zerg had the advantage in this respect + their sneak attack + the Conclave's foolishness. Perhaps if the Conclave hadn't wasted time with Tassadar the losses would be even. Even the game clearly states the Conclave had let down their guard:

[NARRATIVE]

The Zerg Hive cluster near the Scion province was destroyed, but the Protoss forces paid a high price for their victory.

Praetor Fenix, hero and Steward of the Templar, was killed during the assault. The Conclave, convinced that its stratagems are winning the war against the Zerg, have let down their guard and turned their attention to personal matters. The Judicator Aldaris was ordered to find and arrest the wayward Tassadar and bring him home to stand trial for his crimes of treason.

Now, with only a small fleet for protection, Aldaris and the Executor have traveled to the ash world of Char, hoping that Tassadar is still somewhere to be found.

You are right in it being illogical for Arbiters being there. Arbiters were introduced in Shadow Hunters and I'm pretty sure the Judicators hadn't forgiven you then. StarCraft wiki says those Arbiters were piloted by smypathetic Judicators but they did't correctly reference that information so whatever.

She's the greatest criminal against the Protoss species still alive, whom Zeratul himself calls an enemy to all who live, who has just murdered a respected Protoss leader, confessed to having merely been 'using' the Protoss, and threatened them. And Zeratul can't execute her because she killed someone he didn't want to kill? Even if I were to accept that, then he could still have thrown her in a cell.

Zeratul is not the Dark Templar leader. That's Raszagal. In fact Zeratul was disobeying orders himself so who was he to hand out punishment? It was a stretch for him to even oust Kerrigan like that. Raszagal had the right to decide her punishment and not him. I guess Kerrigan accepted the punishment Zeratul gave her because it would look suspicious if Raszagal didn't punish her as expected from her followers.

[FanaticTemplar]

I repeat it was a Pyrrhic victory. It's when you achieve some of your goals but not all of them. Guess what? Saving Aiur was not the Protoss' only goal. That's was the Conclave's only goal or at least they believed it to be.

Yes, you keep repeating it, but I don't know why. You realise that even a pyrrhic victory needs to be a victory, right? It's not a fancy word for defeat. You haven't even demonstrated why you would assume the epilogue is a pyrrhic victory in the sense that you assert.

Tassadar all along knew about the Overmind's goal. He just never got a chance to explain it due to all the drama that was occuring. Tassadar stopped the Overmind from assimilating Protoss into the Swarm. Arguabely he was unable to save Aiur. This is Pyrrhic victory. What would else would you call this? Sure saving Aiur may have been the goal that the Protoss were most emotionally invested in but that's the whole point of a Pyrrhic victory. You achieve some of your goals but not the others (even if they were the goals you preferred to have achieved).

'Pyrrhic victory' is the literary term for this concept. Perhaps Blizzard should have just written Pyrrhic victory but that was what they were getting at all along.

The epilogue did not occur until after the death of the Overmind because it was the death of the Overmind that would eliminate the possibility of Protoss from being assimilated into the Swarm.

That's still not a victory, pyrrhic or otherwise. It's savaging the enemy before dying. By that token, In Utter Darkness ends in a Protoss victory as well.

It was never stated why there was a silence across the battlefields. You made an assumption that the Protoss had achieved total victory over Aiur but I think it is because the Zerg had just lost their link to the Overmind and were indecisive at that point. What evidence do you have that your opinion is better than mine especially considering that it is never stated why there was a silence across the battlefield? It's left open to interpretation and an answer cannot truly be given until Brood War.

Because the very next line. The battlefields fell silent because the Overmind was now dead and the Zerg Swarms were scattered and broken. Incidentally, "scattered and broken" is one hell of an euphemism for "briefly hesitating". Also, the Protoss then go on to survey the damages caused by the war, with the implication that they had been too busy fighting until then to do so. In other words, they were too busy fighting, but no longer are. Also, this is an epilogue. It exists to reveal the fate of the actors and hint at a sequel. And that is what it does: It tells us that the battle is over, the Protoss were victorious, and the Zerg were scattered and broken.

What do you have?

Above all this it is stated that their victory had cost them all but their lives. If it had cost them that much then doesn't it also mean that their victory had cost them Aiur as well?

Yes, and it would have cost them their technology as well, which is why in Brood War the Protoss fight with sticks and stones. But anyway, if you want to demonstrate that they have metaphorically lost Aiur as the once-glorious homeland of the Protoss, the part you would want to highlight is Aiur was left nothing more than a smoldering ruin. You know how it isn't described? Overrun by the Zerg.

The way Blizzard portrayed their missions. In all previous missions, whenever you recieved backup you saw it come to you on-screen e.g. when Daggoth gave us his Hunter Killers we saw them on screen etc. When Mengsk sent his dropships we saw them on-screen. The Conclave only conceded at the start of the mission so if they sent backup we should have seen it on screen. We didn't and that means they didn't send us backup. The only Protoss I saw were the ones that came out of my infrastructure and I doubt those were from the Conclave because that's where all the Protoss I had been using in my rebellion against the Conclave had come from.

That's not an unreasonable perspective. That's not always the case though. Raynor's Raiders are never shown on-screen until the final mission, yet they must have been rescued at the same time as Raynor - he's flying the Hyperion in The Trial of Tassadar. Or in Brood War, Emperor's Flight tells us that both Alexei Stukov and Samir Duran had forces on Aiur assisting you, but they are never shown. Still, you could be correct.

Yes they were thematically equal but the zerg launched a sneak attack so they had the advantage from the start. Then the Conclave wasted there time throwing away troops to punish Tassadar. During this entire time not a single Cerebrate on Aiur was killed. It's similar to how you'll mostly lose a ladder match (against a player of equal skill) if some zerglings run into your base and destroy some of your economy from the start. Honestly the Zerg had the advantage for most of the battle. It makes sense that they greatly outnumbered the Protoss even after the Overmind was killed.

But the Protoss had an advantage from the start before the Zerg even attacked Aiur. They annihilated countless Zerg while purifying the Terran worlds.

Yes but unlike the Zerg, the Protoss cannot revive their fallen as well as them. No matter how many Cerebrates were killed, they were just reincarnated by the Overmind. Whenever a Templar was killed he was probably gone for good.

But the Zerg cannot construct artificially intelligent war machines to fight their battles for them. Also, dead Templar can't fight, but their experience can still benefit living Protoss through the Khala.

Zeratul is not the Dark Templar leader. That's Raszagal. In fact Zeratul was disobeying orders himself so who was he to hand out punishment? It was a stretch for him to even oust Kerrigan like that. Raszagal had the right to decide her punishment and not him. I guess Kerrigan accepted the punishment Zeratul gave her because it would look suspicious if Raszagal didn't punish her as expected from her followers.

Raszagal is the Dark Templar leader but she never says anything with regards to Kerrigan's fate. If Zeratul had wanted to execute/arrest Kerrigan and Raszagal had then countermanded that, then it would at least have been something.

[Aldrius]

I think mainly Blizzard just didn't know what the hell losing Aiur meant vs. the Zerg being defeated. I don't think Brood War really retcons anything, though. I think the end result of the Zerg being scattered and Feral and the Protoss homeworld being devastated are both still true.

If it is a retcon it's not nearly as major as a large number of other retcons Blizzard does in their games. It didn't feel off-putting or out of place at the time, and I don't think it made the Zerg "Overpowered" anymore than they were before. They were always a threat.

It's no worse than the Protoss being able to completely annihilate the Zerg instantly prior to the Zerg campaign. The Zerg didn't even seem like a remote threat to them at that point.

[Turalyon]

Then I don't even see what point you're trying to make.

Read my posts carefully and I'm sure you will.

I never said the route Blizzard took was the only possibility. Just because something is implied does not mean it is definite.

I'm not sure if this is a backpedal or a repositioning of your argument. Your previous posts suggest otherwise when you use the stuff in BW to justify the existence of said stuff in BW and then make assumptions about the epilogue of Sc1 to suit your bias towards what actually happens in BW.

What I'm saying is that they didn't retcon the hell out of their previous story (they even specifically wrote 'began' instead of 'continue' to acknowledge there was a ceasefire) so I don't find anything wrong with how they wrote the prologue in Brood War.

This I agree with, however, this was not what you were arguing initially and I never said anything about it being a retcon. Seems like we we're going in two different directions afterall.

[TSCR]

Yes, you keep repeating it, but I don't know why. You realise that even a pyrrhic victory needs to be a victory, right? It's not a fancy word for defeat. You haven't even demonstrated why you would assume the epilogue is a pyrrhic victory in the sense that you assert.

That's still not a victory, pyrrhic or otherwise. It's savaging the enemy before dying. By that token, In Utter Darkness ends in a Protoss victory as well.

One of the definitions of victory is to prevent your adversary from achieving their goal. The Zerg's goal wasn't really to take Aiur away from the Protoss. It was to assimilate them int othe Swarm and become perfect:

Zerg Overmind
My children, the hour of our victory is at hand. For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be...

Perfect.

The Overmind dying prevented that. That is a victory. Tassadar said so himself:

Tassadar
So you see my friends, we fight not only to save Aiur, but all creation! If we fall to the Zerg then the Overmind will run rampant throughout the stars, consuming all sentience-all life. It is up to us to put an end to this madness, once and for all.

Tassadar
Indeed. My friends, this is our final hour. Not all of us may survive the coming conflict. Yet, death may be a blessing should we fail here. We seek now to destroy a foe that has ravaged its way across the universe consuming all in its path.

And now it has reached the end of its long journey. The Overmind has come to destroy all that we hold dear and assimilate us into itself. And I say to thee, this shall not come to pass! Aiur shall not fall! Executor, I stand ready!

Tassadar's goal was not just fighting for Aiur. That's the mistake you seem to be making. He was fighting for Aiur and for the prevention of the Zerg from becoming perfect. He succeeded in preventing the Zerg from becoming perfect via assimilating the Protoss but he didn't manage to save Aiur. That is a Pyrrhic victory. He achieved one goal but not the other. He did not lose everything. Allow me to make it simple:

Save Aiur + Stop Protoss assimilation = Victory
Lose Aiur + Stop Protoss assimilation = Pyrrhic Victory
Lose Aiur + Unable to stop Protoss assimilation = Defeat

Even tvtropes listed the ending of StarCraft as a Pyrrhic victory:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ame/StarCraftI

Because the very next line. The battlefields fell silent because the Overmind was now dead and the Zerg Swarms were scattered and broken. Incidentally, "scattered and broken" is one hell of an euphemism for "briefly hesitating". Also, the Protoss then go on to survey the damages caused by the war, with the implication that they had been too busy fighting until then to do so. In other words, they were too busy fighting, but no longer are. Also, this is an epilogue. It exists to reveal the fate of the actors and hint at a sequel. And that is what it does: It tells us that the battle is over, the Protoss were victorious, and the Zerg were scattered and broken.

What do you have?

'Scattered and broken' meant the coordination they got from the Overmind vanished. It isn't the euphiesm for indecision, that's 'the battlefields fell silent'. Yeah they were no longer fighting because the Zerg had stopped attacking for a while after the Overmind died. It does not mean that all fighting is over. I mean the Protoss eventually have to deal with all those Zergs and that's going to involve fighting right? It meant the Protoss had achieved a Pyrrhic victory not a regular victory. Context alone is enough to explain that.

But the Protoss had an advantage from the start before the Zerg even attacked Aiur. They annihilated countless Zerg while purifying the Terran worlds.

But Tassadar's fleet wasn't available when the Zerg attacked. The new Executor left with Aldaris to hunt Tassadar so the Conclave only put the Protoss in a greater disadvantage then they were in already. Sure the Protoss annihilated countless Zerg but the reason why they did that is because, I presume, the Zerg were always greater in number than them.

But the Zerg cannot construct artificially intelligent war machines to fight their battles for them. Also, dead Templar can't fight, but their experience can still benefit living Protoss through the Khala.

But none of those measure up to what a Cerebrate can do. A Cerebrate can control an entire Brood.

Raszagal is the Dark Templar leader but she never says anything with regards to Kerrigan's fate. If Zeratul had wanted to execute/arrest Kerrigan and Raszagal had then countermanded that, then it would at least have been something.

What? If that were the case then why did Kerrigan brainwash her n the first place? Kerrigan's plan was to initially gain the Dark Templar's trust and after that failed she resorted to kidnapping. Thus she needed someone who would give her a chance and that is Raszagal.

KERRIGAN
Well done, mighty Protoss! I'm glad to see that you all are as violent as ever.

ZERATUL
Kerrigan! What mockery is this?

KERRIGAN
Relax, warriors. Despite what you may think, I haven't come here to fight you.

ALDARIS
This is laughable! Do you truly expect us to believe that your intentions here are honorable? That these Zerg here are not under your sway?

KERRIGAN
Look, the Cerebrates you've killed were my enemies as well. If you let me explain, I'm sure you'll understand tha-

ZERATUL
You are the enemy of all who live, Kerrigan. What makes you think we would have anything to do with you?

KERRIGAN
Because, Zeratul, I bring news of an event that threatens us all. If you'd be so good as to escort me back to your Citadel, I'll tell you everything I know.

RASZAGAL
Very well, Kerrigan. We shall hear what you have to say. But be warned: We will not suffer your treachery here.

^It's only due to Raszagal that Kerrigan even gets a chance to explain herself.

Raszagal
My children, you must put aside your fears and misgivings to accomplish what must be done. For the time being, Kerrigan will assist you in your endeavors. Though she has been your enemy, it is enough that we share the same agenda now. Allow her time enough to prove herself to you, and you may find her to be a valued ally. For now, you must focus on the task at hand. Search for the Uraj on the planet Braxis, and let nothing stop you from recovering it.

^Really its everyone's love ofr Raszagal that gets them to go along with Kerrigan in the first place.

I guess Zeratul attempting to arrest Kerrigan and Raszagal countermanning the situation may have been the better choice (I don't think Blizzard wrote that scene as well ad they could have) but bear in mind Kerrigan didn't really do anything wrong. Raszagal, the leader of the Dark Templar, ordered Aldaris to be killed. Zeratul was relunctatn to kill him so tried to reason with him. Kerrigan just killed him. Sure she wasn't ordered to do so but she still did what the leader wanted. Zeratul knew all of this as well. There really wasn't much Zeratul could bear to do. He, himself, was in a punishable position.

[TSCR]

I think mainly Blizzard just didn't know what the hell losing Aiur meant vs. the Zerg being defeated. I don't think Brood War really retcons anything, though. I think the end result of the Zerg being scattered and Feral and the Protoss homeworld being devastated are both still true.

If it is a retcon it's not nearly as major as a large number of other retcons Blizzard does in their games. It didn't feel off-putting or out of place at the time, and I don't think it made the Zerg "Overpowered" anymore than they were before. They were always a threat.

It's no worse than the Protoss being able to completely annihilate the Zerg instantly prior to the Zerg campaign. The Zerg didn't even seem like a remote threat to them at that point.

I agree with this. I think Brood War's criticism sometimes sounds more like nitpicks than anything really off-putting.

[Turalyon]

I think Brood War's criticism sometimes sounds more like nitpicks than anything really off-putting.

I'm going to stir the hornet's nest by saying "some people feel that way about Sc2 as well". *Runs for cover*

[TSCR]

I'm going to stir the hornet's nest by saying "some people feel that way about Sc2 as well". *Runs for cover*

I guess it is a little but most of it sounds justified.

I really liked Tychus as a character and I thought he was the best written character in WoL despite the occasional cheesey dialogue. Hardly anyone I hear praises him when reviewing WoL so maybe I'm alone on this one.

I didn't really like anyone in HoTS. If I had to pick a fave it would be Stukov but that's due to nostalgia more than anything else. Why he's siding with the one responsible for his best friend and their fleet's death is beyond me.