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Thread: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

  1. #21

    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    If she did indeed possess reincarnation abilities, they'd have presumably been mentioned.
    Mentioning it is one thing as is seeing it in action is another. I would tend to think that Kerrigan cannot be reincarnated in the sense that she is unique, partially human and that it may just be an ability that only the cerebrates and the Overmind (or wholly Zerg in nature?) can do. Then again, who knows, the Overmind probably downloaded that ability to her as well when it died.

    Also, I'm not sure that Kerrigan ever actually "dies" (does she actually reach 0 hitpoints before she retreats?) during All In so we can't really say she can/can't actually reincarnate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    The DLC maps that followed the release of Brood War along with StarCraft 64, dating back to 1999 at the earliest, 2000 at the latest depending on what you consider canon. And reinforced multiple times since, such as the mutalisk hive on Choss or the feral zerg on Aiur. Kerrigan has near total control over the zerg, but it was clear from the outset that "near total" isn't the same as "complete."
    And this is supposed to be common knowledge for the casual SC fan I take it?

    The "near total" control thing is incredibly iffy and a possible retcon too since in BW Duran states in the mission briefing of The Reckoning: "My Queen, with the Overmind and its cerebrates destroyed, all of the Zerg in this sector have reverted to your direct control."

    Duran wouldn't lie about something like that nor would Kerrigan have any reservations or doubts about it's truth (she of all people should know if she has full control one would think). Only willful misinterpretation or retconning of this statement and its implications would be cause to not think Kerrigan has complete control of the Zerg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    I think you're selling the protoss a bit short in the SC1 context, but that's beside the point.
    It's not "beside the point" nor am I (it's not just my perspective) the one selling them short, Blizz themselves wrote it that way! The Protoss being utterly decimated is really how it's presented and their current state of affairs as of BW.

    New technology and rebuilt buildings does not make up for their dangerously depleted numbers especially considering that they're not a prolific species to begin with. This is not even considering the handicap of the Protoss being even more "behind" than what they were to begin with before facing the Zerg. So not only are the Protoss much weaker than before and having to build up to not only replace but try to supercede their initial strength (how this would even be possible in 10 years is a stretch given their myriad other problems), they also have to battle a force that trounced them which is now most likely even bigger and potentially more dangerous than it was when they first faced them. Saying that the Protoss have a realistic chance of retaking Aiur is wishful thinking at the best when you also have to accept contrived coincidences such as Kerrigan not being in control of any of the Zerg on Aiur and that all of them will be feral and easy to kill once the DV is gone. The only way Aiur could ever be retaken without something going WTF? would require a retcon of how serious their crippling the Zerg handed them was in the first place.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 03-11-2013 at 08:47 AM.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon
    And this is supposed to be common knowledge for the casual SC fan I take it?
    Well considering that the average fan is only going to be interested in a setting's primary medium, and that those maps did appear in the primary medium, I guess so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon
    The "near total" control thing is incredibly iffy and a possible retcon too since in BW Duran states in the mission briefing of The Reckoning: "My Queen, with the Overmind and its cerebrates destroyed, all of the Zerg in this sector have reverted to your direct control."
    Your point? He says "all the zerg in this sector." Aiur is outside the sector, and so are numerous other worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon
    New technology and rebuilt buildings does not make up for their dangerously depleted numbers especially considering that they're not a prolific species to begin with. This is not even considering the handicap of the Protoss being even more "behind" than what they were to begin with before facing the Zerg. So not only are the Protoss much weaker than before and having to build up to not only replace but try to supercede their initial strength (how this would even be possible in 10 years is a stretch given their myriad other problems), they also have to battle a force that trounced them which is now most likely even bigger and potentially more dangerous than it was when they first faced them.
    Of course the protoss are weaker than they were in SC1, but so are the zerg post-WoL. Even if Kerrigan brings back every brood mother under her control in HotS, Aiur is no longer of any concern to her considering that (spoiler)
    Hidden Content:
    her main concern after defeating Mengsk is going to face Amon.
    So either the zerg on Aiur came under a brood mother's control that's now allied with Kerrigan (in which case Aiur is a moot point), under a brood mother's control that remains isolated from the rest of the zerg (and therefore outnumbered by the protoss as a net total), under the control of the Dark Voice (who'll be defeated anyway) or revert back to a feral state and therefore be easy prey in the long run.

    So how is any of this contrived? Apart from the Dark Voice option, every example has the Aiur zerg isolated from the main group of zerg (or any other large force), and it's been a status quo that was established long beforehand. Contrivance usually refers to something given then and there, as a solution to a problem that has to be solved then and there, and when there was no previous establishment of the parameters of that solution. It isn't contrivance when these things are foreshadowed, and even the Dark Voice was foreshadowed long before LotV-in WoL, and technically as early as DO with the benefit of hindsight.
    Last edited by Hawki; 03-11-2013 at 04:06 PM.

  3. #23
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    There's a difference though. If mutalisks fly through space through farting, and Banshees fly through space through specially equipped engines, I can draw a line from point a (current understanding) to potential future understanding. Likewise, the suits and zerg still have roots in technology and biology. Very far fetched of course, but power armour is a real-world concept, and we know for a fact that organisms change over time. Not that we have any Overmind equivalents, but it's still got its basis in biology somewhere.

    Psionics are different. The day psychic powers are established to be real, or established to be potentially real, then psionics gets to stop being pseudo-science.
    If you're willing to jump through hoops to accept mutalisks and banshees flying through space then you can do so for psionics:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21604005
    http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/16/n...ower-transfer/
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1612950.html

    I can guarantee you the Overmind & zerg have no real-life analogues. Actual hive-minds work through pheromones, dances, other forms of signaling, not psychic communication. Absorbing the DNA of an alien species is basically impossible when the Overmind has nothing to compare it to. What does the Overmind do when a species doesn't use DNA as its genetic material, or uses some other-handed version? How does he know what methods of synthesis, transcription, translation to use so as not to encode garbage? Perhaps he monitors every aspect of the genetic material from fetal development and on throughout several generations? The point is that we have to assume that whatever he does, it is extremely advanced. Just like psionics and marine suits are.

    For psionics we just have to assume that:
    1) The psychic has an organ that can produce energy or force of some kind, like the electric eel's organs that produce electricity, or the protoss's nerve cords.
    2) This organ is part of the somatic nervous system, or the psychic has some degree of control over it.
    3) The organ can affect objects at a distance, maybe through quantum entanglement or just producing a field of some kind.

    Reducing the protoss psionic trait/manifestation aspect of psi-blades to just another gizmo cheapens the overall effect.
    The only thing that cheapens the effect is pretending that it's magical "essence" wankery instead of science. This is why Nova and Gestalt can use psi blades too. What was your reaction to those? :P

    ...I thought The Fall was the best campaign of SC1 and BW too. I guess that's something we have in common...

    ...right?
    Yes. I'm not saying I didn't like the book. I just don't think it invoked any sense of awe or mystery when it explained everything away.

    Felt that belonged more to Raynor. If anything, Duke symbolized the Confederacy to me - self-interested, indifferent to others, causes harm through neglect more than direct malice, etc. While the Confederacy was pretty much faceless in the games (and still is in overall lore in a sense), Duke was the closest thing to a 'face' for it.
    Exactly. Raynor was an outlier in that he was the one decent guy in the original games. Koprulu Sector terrans are meant to be either:
    a) failures (lester & sarge)
    b) degenerate scum (mengsk, the confeds)

    Two qualities that Duke exhibited. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Your point? He says "all the zerg in this sector." Aiur is outside the sector, and so are numerous other worlds.
    No it's not: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/planet/aiur

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    What is clear about the Protoss is that they are no match against the Zerg even when they were at their strongest and are crippled severely. This is never in dispute especially given the loss of Aiur and the near total destruction of Shakuras, two homeworlds that one would think would be the most heavily defended planets of all Protoss planets.
    To be fair, the Aiur protoss had to deal with things like the Conclave's civil war, leaving the battle to arrest Tassadar, etc. Given that they already put a large dent into the zerg (i.e. Scion), which caused the Conclave to grow overconfident, it's fair to say that they might have put up a way better fight if they had their shit together. Now, if they enlisted Dark Templar help from the beginning and didn't have to deal with petty infighting, it's pretty much a certainty that they would have defeated the zerg IMHO.

    With that being said, what's done is done, and that option is no longer on the table. The writers already stated that Kerrigan could sweep the sector, and that includes the protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    I think you're selling the protoss a bit short in the SC1 context, but that's beside the point. But I disagree with your retcon analogy. A retcon would be retroactively altering the protoss state at the time that status was established. E.g., end text in BW was that (paraphrased) "Artanis returned to Shakuras to rebuild their shattered civilization." Shattered, as in, in a poor state, etc. Retconning that would be along the lines of "actually, it wasn't shattered, deal with it."

    What isn't a retcon is going from the former status quo to a new status one. We know the protoss have rebuilt at least partially (as in, would have more hardware now than what BW left them), know that they've made new advances (new units), and know that the zerg on Aiur at the least are not operating in tandem with Kerrigan. Now whether the protoss are at a state to beat isolated zerg at their own game is a matter of semantics, but in contrast to SC1 and BW, the Daelaam protoss didn't really suffer much in WoL, or as far as I can tell, HotS either (as in, Kerrigan never does a number on Shakuras or any other major colony world besides Kaldir). So when the protoss have been rebuilding over 4-plus years and didn't really go through anything too traumatic over that period of time as opposed to the Great War and Brood War, I think there's some leverage for them to operate in force. How much is the right ammount however, is of course, subjective.
    Ah yes, the all-purpose "it's been 4 years" excuse. Didn't see that one coming. :P

    Unfortunately, even if we assume that protoss have rebuilt over 4 years, then so has everyone else. Besides, let's go over the scoreboard:
    1) Something has been killing off Protoss for a long time now. Their birth rates have been stagnating even before SC1.
    2) Invasion of Aiur crippled the protoss' nerve center.
    3) The zerg cerebrates nearly destroyed Shakuras.
    4) Kerrigan blew up Talematros.
    5) The protoss' loss at Omega shattered the last vestiges of their military power. Not that they can't rebuild, but they have to be frugal, and that includes not wasting resources on fanciful expenditures such as retaking a useless homeworld just for its sentimental value.

    under a brood mother's control that remains isolated from the rest of the zerg (and therefore outnumbered by the protoss as a net total)
    The argument is not that the protoss would be outnumbered and lose when trying to retake Aiur. The argument is that it would be stupid to retake Aiur when the writers put the hybrid threat on a pedestral. If Artanis tells you himself in the DT saga that it's a worthless expenditure (like a year before WoL, nothing has changed), then you have to admit that he will be even less likely to consider it in LoTV considering that he'd be stupid to not know about the hybrid threat by that time.

    under the control of the Dark Voice (who'll be defeated anyway)
    Defeated in the middle of the game? Retaking Aiur will be the last mission then, not fighting the dark voice & the hybrids at Ulnar or something? And then the zerg on Aiur will leave for no good reason when under the control of the DV, a queen, anybody?

  4. #24

    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Forewarning in that all the hidden text involves HotS spoilers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius
    The only thing that cheapens the effect is pretending that it's magical "essence" wankery instead of science. This is why Nova and Gestalt can use psi blades too. What was your reaction to those? :P
    Nova and Zero can use psi-blades too because, shock of all shocks, they're psionic as well. Just like the protoss. It adds to their characters because they're the cream of the crop of their species (so would other Ghosts technically, but whether they can use psyblades is another matter). It adds to the essence of the protoss because it shows that even the most basic of their soldiers has enough psionic might to form a blade of psionic energy. It adds to Tassadar's character that he could make such energy without the need for forearm units. It takes away from this when psionic energy is removed from the equation. If every jock has a psi-blade, then the impact of the weapon is diminished.

    Hidden Content:
    And considering that Narud could wield psionic weapons as well, "the most powerful enemy that Kerrigan has ever faced," it adds to the effect of how psionics is the determining factor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius
    Suppose you're right. I think RISK: StarCraft implied/stated that Aiur is outside the sector, but unfortunately don't have confirmation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius
    Ah yes, the all-purpose "it's been 4 years" excuse. Didn't see that one coming. :P

    Unfortunately, even if we assume that protoss have rebuilt over 4 years, then so has everyone else. Besides, let's go over the scoreboard:
    1) Something has been killing off Protoss for a long time now. Their birth rates have been stagnating even before SC1.
    2) Invasion of Aiur crippled the protoss' nerve center.
    3) The zerg cerebrates nearly destroyed Shakuras.
    4) Kerrigan blew up Talematros.
    5) The protoss' loss at Omega shattered the last vestiges of their military power. Not that they can't rebuild, but they have to be frugal, and that includes not wasting resources on fanciful expenditures such as retaking a useless homeworld just for its sentimental value.

    The argument is not that the protoss would be outnumbered and lose when trying to retake Aiur. The argument is that it would be stupid to retake Aiur when the writers put the hybrid threat on a pedestral. If Artanis tells you himself in the DT saga that it's a worthless expenditure (like a year before WoL, nothing has changed), then you have to admit that he will be even less likely to consider it in LoTV considering that he'd be stupid to not know about the hybrid threat by that time.
    Of points 1-4 there's no disagreement bar it would be over 4 years more or less, but whatever. Concerning the bottom threat however, we don't know when the protoss will learn about the hybrid threat, so it doesn't preclude an attempt. Not when, as per the storyline of HotS,
    Hidden Content:
    Kerrigan takes the bulk of the zerg with her to face Amon, so whatever zerg may be on Aiur are under that rogue queen if it's still there
    .

    So, on one hand, the protoss have rebuilt. On the other, the feral zerg are either feral or under a lone queen. That scenario alone has the protoss at the advantage. If the Dark Voice is controlling the zerg, then the odds are probably against them, but we don't know when he and the hybrids will be revealed.

    The final assessment, in my mind at least, is that Aiur has to be dealt with in some form or another. It's still inhabitable, at least some protoss want it, and it's arguably the most 'personal' world of the series (terrans and zerg being more nomadic). So, in this light, I list my own options storywise

    1) Something happens that renders Aiur completely uninhabitable.
    2) The protoss simply give up (bad choice IMO)
    3)
    Hidden Content:
    All the zerg from Aiur leave with Kerrigan as per the end of HotS, allowing the protoss to waltz back in (so-so on this)

    4) The protoss retake Aiur in LotV either:

    4a) Take out the lone queen and her zerg
    4b) Take out the Dark Voice, which lands them back at square one (feral zerg to deal with - say he's defeated at Ulnar or something)
    4c) The Dark Voice is defeated at Aiur, and by extension, the zerg are defeated as well (iffy IMO, because it's a repeat of the Overmind, and the zerg didn't all die with him either)

    5) The issue is postponed for a plot point in SC3/some StarCraft MMO (Aiur=Azeroth)/you get the idea.
    6) Aiur is resettled in the interim between games (very bad idea IMO)

    Personally, 4a is my preferred choice. We're all free for such preferences, I'm fine with that. But to me, Aiur is too large a plot point to just ignore.

    Hidden Content:
    And don't bring Kerrigan into it. She's got no reason to want Aiur more than any other world, and I don't see her being the Queen Bitch of the Universe post-HotS. It's a big galaxy, she's got enough problems with Amon, and if she survives it, I don't think Aiur is really on her list of priorities.
    Last edited by Hawki; 03-11-2013 at 09:53 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Actually, you know what? Screw it. After HotS, I'm past caring.

  6. #26
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Welcome to 2010, Hawki. Didn't we just debate the other day whether or not StarCraft was good and/or even worth hoping for? Hate to say I told you so. Wait, no, I don't.

    I told you so.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Well considering that the average fan is only going to be interested in a setting's primary medium, and that those maps did appear in the primary medium, I guess so.
    I'm glad that you can so off-handedly say something so obscure as this can be generalised and expected to be common knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Your point? He says "all the zerg in this sector." Aiur is outside the sector, and so are numerous other worlds.
    I knew you were going to hair-split this. The only sector worth talking about is the Koprulu Sector - and it does actually contain Aiur. Your much beloved Wiki says this (which you'll no doubt try to change most likely...) and Blizz's main site even lists the planet amongst their "Koprulu Sector systems". No doubt you'll find a way to worm your way out of this one, too. Sc lore is so damn slippery!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Of course the protoss are weaker than they were in SC1, but so are the zerg post-WoL.

    So how is any of this contrived?
    Am I the only one who spots the irony here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Apart from the Dark Voice option, every example has the Aiur zerg isolated from the main group of zerg (or any other large force), and it's been a status quo that was established long beforehand.
    You really gotta stop making such broad generalisations about others expecting to know exactly what you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    So how is any of this contrived?

    It isn't contrivance when these things are foreshadowed, and even the Dark Voice was foreshadowed long before LotV-in WoL, and technically as early as DO with the benefit of hindsight.
    Something that is foreshadowed does not preclude it from being contrived. The components necessary for something to be called contrived is that there is a sense of it being obviously deliberate and artificially created to suit some purpose or other and the DV certainly fits that bill.

    Citing Dark Origins as direct evidence of the existence of the DV since the beginning as if it could only be the DV is a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    To be fair, the Aiur protoss had to deal with things like the Conclave's civil war, leaving the battle to arrest Tassadar, etc. Given that they already put a large dent into the zerg (i.e. Scion), which caused the Conclave to grow overconfident, it's fair to say that they might have put up a way better fight if they had their shit together. Now, if they enlisted Dark Templar help from the beginning and didn't have to deal with petty infighting, it's pretty much a certainty that they would have defeated the zerg IMHO.

    With that being said, what's done is done, and that option is no longer on the table. The writers already stated that Kerrigan could sweep the sector, and that includes the protoss.
    I have to agree with your first point, but you have to consider that it's only when BW occurs that Blizz pretty much pulls the rug out from under the Protoss. BW gives us things like having around 70% (or something to that effect) of the population of Aiur being depleted, followed by what one could only describe as a Pyrrhic victory on Shakuras followed by numerous military defeats (so much for the vaunted and powerful Dark Templar, right?), finally culminating with Artanis (there one shining hope) defeat in Omega.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Actually, you know what? Screw it. After HotS, I'm past caring.
    Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness!
    Last edited by Turalyon; 03-12-2013 at 04:41 AM.
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  8. #28
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    I'm about half way through HotS and I don't know what Hawki is talking about. I am enjoying HotS's story quite a bit more than WoL, and the gameplay is top notch as usual. I don't see how Hawki can defend WoL but hate HotS. Then again, something WOULD be wrong if I agreed with him on something.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    I'm about half way through HotS and I don't know what Hawki is talking about.
    The first half is really not that bad. Things get... weirder in the second part.

  10. #30
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Short Story - Cold Symmetry

    Still better than I thought and Hawki let on. I was disappointed though, just like I knew I would, so I'm off reading Ian M. Banks 'Culture' novels which is basically StarCraft 2 done right from what I hear.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

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