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Thread: Detection for Templar Tech?

  1. #1

    Default Detection for Templar Tech?

    So the problem I've found with Protoss detection currently is that we've been pigeon hold' to the Robo tech path for detection. That no matter which route we wanted to go, we always had to build a Robo to get detection (the observer). THANK GOD that in HotS they gave the Oracle a detection ability so that Stargate became more viable. But what about Templar tech? I've had some success with going a Templar Tech only build (Archons zealot vs Zerg and Storm heavy vs Terran). Though I've always had problems with things like Banshees and Burrowed roaches.
    The other races have detection available no matter what tech path they go, be it Overseer or Scanner sweep. So why is Protoss forced down certain paths to deal with "cloaked" units? All path choices should be viable, like the other races, no?

    My Idea for a solution would be to add an ability to the Archon. Nothing too crazy:

    SURGE
    The Archon overcharges it's psionic matrix, depleting ALL it's shields and expelling its energy outwards from its center.

    - So basically the idea here is that the Archon uses this "surge" ability which would remove it's entire shield bank to cast a AOE of detection from where the Archon was when cast. It would last for a certain amount of time (balance pending) and would not follow the Archon after the cast. Kind of like a mobile scanner sweep at the cost of an Archon.

    Balance issues could be resolved with either the "surge" actually coating units and giving detection to them even when they leave the AOE, or just through basic size and duration of the AOE its self.

    What do you guys think? You think that having the Oracle is enough now?
    KCCO

  2. #2

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    I don't think it's necessary at all. Building a single Robotics Bay to pump Observers, Immortals, and Warp Prisms isn't going to drain you like going Stargate does. Immortals benefit from the ground upgrades you get going going into Templar anyway. Protoss detection is just fine - if anything, the Oracle needs tweaking to combine Revelation and Envision instead of having two similar abilities.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    Building a single Robotics Bay to pump Observers, Immortals, and Warp Prisms isn't going to drain you like going Stargate does .
    Mid-game no. But when you make your first tech building choice, there's no way you can afford to build down 2 tech paths.

    Recently I've been putting a lot of emphasis on Templar tech, because i'm fucking sick of the Colossus. I hate that unit, and I hate the crutch it's become to Toss players. Especially in PvT.
    So I've been rushing to storm and charge for my PvTs lately, and I've found that if you can survive the early game - you can pretty easily make it to the late game. The problem that consists of most of my loses is cloaked banshees. It's just a straight up build order loss. There's no way to get storm and Robo out without dieing on the first attack.
    It would be nice to have an answer to this in the early game.

    Also, with HotS - it seems like a lot of Zerg have been doing the swarm host / corrupter thing. Since all of Toss detection is air based, it would be nice to have a ground based form of detection that isn't countered so easily.
    The cost of an Archon's shields for a temporary detection ability is quite a heavy trade. I really can't see it being used as a crutch for a Protoss player, especially early / mid games.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    Protoss detection is just fine
    They really aren't. If you have grandmaster APM then sure, but for the vast majority of SC2's players it's not enough. Like I said before - the other races aren't forced down any particular path for detection. Neither should Protoss.
    KCCO

  4. #4

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    I like the idea. Getting archons is costly by itself and the vulnerability that would come from the loss of shields would be enough of a trade-off in my opinion. Dt/banshee attacks would still viable, especially if the detection ability was linked to the archon itself and so would disappear when it was destroyed.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rake View Post
    I like the idea. Getting archons is costly by itself and the vulnerability that would come from the loss of shields would be enough of a trade-off in my opinion.
    Ya for sure. Though like D-squid is saying - It's not something that is NEEDED, and I agree to a point. I just feel that it would open up Templar tech more if something like this was implemented. It would make the game more enjoyable to the players.
    KCCO

  6. #6

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    Why the hell would you remove the Archon's shields? They have next to no HP and could be sniped veeery easily. XD

    Maybe depleting say, 50 or 100 shields for the detection, that I could see... but all of them? No way.
    I've fought for the Terran revolution, I've seen the promise of the Protoss, and now I'm ready to join the might of the Swarm...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    Yeah, I don't see a point to this when you have this archaic form of detection compared to the most efficient form of detection available up another tech path. Make a gas-heavy unit sacrifice its shields to detect an area vs an invisible, flying, low psi-cost spotter. It becomes one of those 'why bother?' game design decisions.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    This is nonsense. Your idea is not coherent.

    You want TT detection for Banshee rushes... and your idea puts detection on the highest tier Templar unit. Fail.
    You want TT detection for Banshees in general... even though Banshees can't shoot up to hit Observers, and Vikings can't see them without costly Scan or expensive Ravens anyway. Fail.
    You want detection against Swarm Host/Corruptor... a very expensive late-game army that is highly vulnerable to a Blink Stalker push, which you can achieve easily if you've been going a Gateway heavy Templar tech anyway. Fail.

    Hell, I'll even go further.

    You want TT detection against Ghosts... even though they already EMP the shit out of you. Fail.
    You want TT detection against burrow-move Roaches... who can't shoot up to hit Observers and are basically hard countered by Immortals. Fail.
    You want TT detection against enemy Dark Templar... who are basically more expensive Burrow Roaches and have the exact same weaknesses. Fail.
    You want TT detection against the fucking Mothership's cloaking field... derp.

    The only remotely legitimate threat I can think of where TT detection might be valuable is Hydra/Host because Hydras decimate Stalkers.. but Storm kills Hydras just as well so even then its pointless because you want any Archons you have absorbing damage with their shields, not losing them to detect the Hosts.

    My mechanics may be shoddy but seriously... this is insane. Protoss DO NOT NEED TT detection.
    Last edited by DemolitionSquid; 03-04-2013 at 01:57 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alar View Post
    They have next to no HP and could be sniped veeery easily.
    That's the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    detection available up another tech path.
    The point here is that being forced to go up a particular tech path for detection is limiting players on early/mid game strategies. Stargate Tech is currently limited like this as well, until HotS comes out. There's no reason to limit Templar Tech when a simple solution can be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It becomes one of those 'why bother?' game design decisions.
    Why not bother?
    It's not like it's game breaking. Just a little addition that opens doors and new play styles.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    You want TT detection for Banshee rushes... and your idea puts detection on the highest tier Templar unit.
    The timing for banshees and quick Templars (and therefor Archons) actually lines up nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    You want TT detection for Banshees in general... even though Banshees can't shoot up to hit Observers
    You don't have observers. You're going quick TT.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    You want detection against Swarm Host/Corruptor... a very expensive late-game army that is highly vulnerable to a Blink Stalker push, which you can achieve easily if you've been going a Gateway heavy Templar tech anyway.
    The whole point behind Swarm Host/Corruptor is to deny detection. Blinking stalkers on Swarm Hosts is suicide without detection (obviously).

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post

    You want TT detection against Ghosts... even though they already EMP the shit out of you.
    I think in this situation you're going to have multiple tech paths open. So you're more then likely going to have Observers available. Ghosts are usually mid/late game. I haven't seen a cloaked ghost rush in a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    You want TT detection against burrow-move Roaches... who can't shoot up to hit Observers and are basically hard countered by Immortals. Fail.
    Once again - You don't have Robo tech. You went TT

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    You want TT detection against enemy Dark Templar... who are basically more expensive Burrow Roaches and have the exact same weaknesses.
    The DT can just leave the AOE. And at the cost of an Archon.
    And if it's implemented like Rake was saying - the DT could just one shot the Archon and be invisible again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    You want TT detection against the fucking Mothership's cloaking field...
    Ya, that one I agree on.
    You're still basically sacrificing an Archon for it though. Plus that's a late game situation and you'd have a more efficient forms of detection available to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post

    Protoss DO NOT NEED TT detection.
    They didn't NEED Stargate detection either, but look at all the new strategies available now that they do. Why not take it further?
    KCCO

  10. #10

    Default Re: Detection for Templar Tech?

    I actually disagree on that last point - I've thought Protoss needed Stargate detection for a long time - but that's neither here nor there.

    The point I was trying to make is that everything you could achieve by giving the Archon detection is already done and viable (and actually cheaper) by simply getting a single Robo and a few Observers. There is no situation at all I can fathom where having Templar or Archon detection would change anything or perform better than the Observer.

    In your own words, the way you want to play is quick TT with no Robo, and frankly that kind of play needs high risk/high reward. For that much gas so early you get a few but very powerful units, and the enemy thus needs a strong way to counter it. Having cloaking is a vital element to holding off the power TT offers. From a balance standpoint I just can't see removing the enemy's ability to counter Banshee/DT/Burrow Roach you early game as a good idea.

    Your want for TT detection stems from nothing but some stubborn and bizarre desire to not build a single Robo, not for any valid mechanical reasoning, and I simply cannot support that kind of game design.

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