Are Reapers too much of a niche unit?

[unentschieden]

They don't need to be useless just because of that, you still would need to react quickly (well, not that quickly) to avoid the damage.

The problem i see with the D8 Charges, is that they put a timed, AoE, instant-damage bomb in a fairly cheap and massable unit that can jump cliffs without any spotter. Either the damage is going to suck, or something would need to be tweaked to avoid cheesy situations.

In the case of the Spider Mines, they dealed a lot of damage, but were limited to 3 per Vulture, and the deploying process was very slow.

That's why i had always praised Psi Storm. The damage is brutal, but at least the enemy can dodge some damage, and the caster can damage his own units. Oh, and the caster is costly (as any caster should be) and vulnerable.


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The comparison is quite good. D-8 and Spidermines are quite similar if used offensivly. Spidermines just were never meant to be used offensivly (they wouldn´t have to burrow before attacking otherwise).
Spidermines made Vultures extremely cost effective, possibly more than they were supposed to be even when using them only "properly". On their own, after setting their 3 mines, though they require serious micro to stay important.
Reapers though are not "throwaway" units (if only because they cost gas) and D-8 charges have a clear offensive role, simply due to the timer instead of proximity triggering. Also it´s easier to get them into position under enemy units since they are thrown and cliff climbing makes the delivery unit even more mobile than vultures.
It´s a lot less likely that you suffer friendly fire with D-8 charges since they don´t move.

Damage is going to suck? Depends. D-8 are definetly designed to be "massed" as in you use more than one for a volley. There is also the issue of reload time - at least against buildings you can easily hit-and-run and either force the enemy to reinforce that spot or just come back and send another volley. Thats why they deal bonusdamage against Buildings.

[Pandonetho]

The problem i see with the D8 Charges, is that they put a timed, AoE, instant-damage bomb in a fairly cheap and massable unit that can jump cliffs without any spotter. Either the damage is going to suck, or something would need to be tweaked to avoid cheesy situations.

Why does the damage either have to suck or something need to be tweaked? There's nothing wrong with the D8 charges being used against static defenses, I thought you were arguing against the Reaper saying that it's too much of a niche unit (agreeing with Archer) but you're now arguing that it's going to be too strong.

[Kimera757]

I think people are arguing that it's hard to balance the damage of the charges.

IMO, they're not. If need be, they could have a figure like 30 + 30 vs armored + 100 vs buildings. (At that rate, 3 would blow up a bunker.) This isn't StarCraft I; damage is flexible.

[Norfindel]

Why does the damage either have to suck or something need to be tweaked? There's nothing wrong with the D8 charges being used against static defenses, I thought you were arguing against the Reaper saying that it's too much of a niche unit (agreeing with Archer) but you're now arguing that it's going to be too strong.

Because they now have (or used to have) 30 (+30 vs Armored) dmg, which means 60 dmg against buildings. That isn't a lot, you need 5 Charges exploding near a Pylon to destroy it. However, if you raise the damage and the unit can be massed, you run into situations where a lot of Reapers jump, throw a lot of Charges, and run away.
But don't take that too seriously, as it's only a conjecture.
Another of my worries, are that all the cliff climbers get players too much on the defensive.

[Pandonetho]

5 charges is not a lot, considering pylons need 2 yamato shots just to kill one, I'm pretty sure a splash damage mine on cooldown coming from 5 units is much more cost effective.

[Norfindel]

5 charges is not a lot, considering pylons need 2 yamato shots just to kill one, I'm pretty sure a splash damage mine on cooldown coming from 5 units is much more cost effective.

Well, they're way different abilities. Yamato has huge range, and cannot be avoided. But yes, if you can use the Charges, it's cheaper.

[Shadow Archon]

Well, they're way different abilities. Yamato has huge range, and cannot be avoided. But yes, if you can use the Charges, it's cheaper.

Actually, if you use the Stalker's blink just right, you can miss it. I haven't played it myself to confirm this, but someone who went to blizzcon used this strategy. You have to do it right, if you blink to early, you'll get hit seeing that another person tried the same thing and got hit.

[Norfindel]

Actually, if you use the Stalker's blink just right, you can miss it. I haven't played it myself to confirm this, but someone who went to blizzcon used this strategy. You have to do it right, if you blink to early, you'll get hit seeing that another person tried the same thing and got hit.

Strange. I remember Karune saying it couldn't be done, but that was a loooong time ago.

One bad situation could be a Terran player smartcasting Yamato against a bunch of Stalkers, and they running away with Blink. That would suck.

[Nicol Bolas]

Another of my worries, are that all the cliff climbers get players too much on the defensive.

This is a legitimate concern. If the Zerg have to keep an expansion ahead of other races, Stalkers and Reapers will make that somewhat difficult. Even with more larva and mobile defensive buildings, Zerg will be at a disadvantage.

[unentschieden]

This is a legitimate concern. If the Zerg have to keep an expansion ahead of other races, Stalkers and Reapers will make that somewhat difficult. Even with more larva and mobile defensive buildings, Zerg will be at a disadvantage.

That is why the Zerg get the Queen. The reason why Zerg need to stay one base ahead is mainly that Hatcherys are expensive and that SC:BW Zerg are more Gas reliant than Terran/Protoss. At this point Larvae are so cheap that Zerg are at the advantage.

Forcing the enemy into the defensive is the point of the unit. On the other hand it´s relativly worthless in "real" combat where for example the Hellion would be better/cheaper.
That the unit is designed for hit-and-run doesn´t make it a economy hardcounter. There are 2 sides to each unit debate: what is it usefull for and what can I do against it?