Q&A #10

[Gradius]

WoL wasn't necessarily more about Terrans in general than it was about being the "Jim Raynor Show".

And that's basically what I've been getting at since forever. WoL is not a terran campaign, it's more of a self-aggrandizing ego trip for the player-character who goes on to dominate the sector.

Can't decide what the most appropriate title for WoL should really be:
1) StarCraft II: The Jim Raynor Show
2) StarCraft II: Find the Artifacts
3) StarCraft II: Cowboys & Aliens
4) StarCraft II: Superman Returns

While "Find the Artifacts" is accurate & succinct, I can't help but feel that "Superman Returns" captures the essence of the game, highlighting Raynor's return from his 4 years of "debilitating alcoholism". *cough cough

<_<

When does the Dominion look weak in WoL? Oo They make superweapons, send entire fleet against the Zerg, and other Terran factions are barely mentionned at all.

Apparently building giant superweapons & armies is considered "a sign of rebuilding" and therefore "a sign of weakness". :P

Oh, and Blizzard nerfed Umoja & KMC into the ground in order to offset Mengsk's random rebuilding splurge and giant population boost. Before, they were powerful and legitimate, albeit underdeveloped factions, but now they're apparently struggling to survive despite twiddling their thumbs during the interbellum. Looks like they're going to stay as underdeveloped factions now, considering it's more work to actually flesh them out as opposed to using the Dominion that everyone is already familiar with.

[Hawki]

And that's basically what I've been getting at since forever. WoL is not a terran campaign, it's more of a self-aggrandizing ego trip for the player-character who goes on to dominate the sector.

SC1: Sons of Korhal overthrow the Confederacy, establish the Terran Dominion, the dominant power in the sector.

BW: UED overthrow the Dominion, establishing themselves as the dominant power in the sector.

WoL: Raiders make a dent in the Dominion, but otherwise remain the small, tactical force that they ("ego trip! ego trip!")

Yeah, sorry. Can't ever say I ever went on an ego trip since in WoL, our actions were small in scale until allying with the Dominion itself. And if you want to say that they shouldn't be able to do x at all, even if I disagreed (a raid on Korhal is much different than an outright attack on Tarsonis), well, welcome to videogames. Heck, welcome to fiction, period.

Oh, and Blizzard nerfed Umoja & KMC into the ground in order to offset Mengsk's random rebuilding splurge and giant population boost. Before, they were powerful and legitimate, albeit underdeveloped factions, but now they're apparently "struggling to survive" despite twiddling their thumbs during the interbellum. Looks like they're going to stay as underdeveloped factions now, considering it's more work to actually flesh them out as opposed to using the Dominion that everyone is already familiar with.

Not sure where the impressions came from. It's a telling feature that come SC1, the UP and KMC are "pirate militias," small factions that stand in contrast to the might of the Confederacy. It's also telling that they only started to be developed after BW, when they achieved independence and sparred with the Dominion for influence (granted, lots been filled retroactively). And if you want to make the argument that either should have become outright dominant post-BW, the fact is that neither were really set up for it in a story sense. SC1/BW, we get one KMC appearence, no UP appearence, no mention/sighting of any characters from said factions, and the statement that the Dominion was going to rebuild. If that did happen, if history progressed with, say, the UP in charge (Ghost would probably be named Shadowguard for instance), then the boot would be on the other foot. Granted, the UED came from a previous background faction, but...well, suffice to say, I'd be the one saying that Brood War was ignored, or at least the end of it.

Find it also iffy that people cry foul over the Dominion and not the Protoss Protectorate/Daelaam, how the shattering of their power should have left the board open for 'lesser species' to do as they pleased, the only possible mention of this being in the old Phoenix profile. Doubt that'll happen though, considering the flavour lore of the HotS protoss units seems to be pointing to re-emergence of a power. Iffy about that myself, but like the Dominion, it's not something I can claim ignorance of.

[Gradius]

SC1: Sons of Korhal overthrow the Confederacy, establish the Terran Dominion, the dominant power in the sector.

BW: UED overthrow the Dominion, establishing themselves as the dominant power in the sector.

WoL: Raiders make a dent in the Dominion, but otherwise remain the small, tactical force that they ("ego trip! ego trip!")

Yeah, sorry. Can't ever say I ever went on an ego trip since in WoL, our actions were small in scale until allying with the Dominion itself. And if you want to say that they shouldn't be able to do x at all, even if I disagreed (a raid on Korhal is much different than an outright attack on Tarsonis), well, welcome to videogames. Heck, welcome to fiction, period.

SC1 - Played as a powerful "extremist faction" with actual resources, troops, and a Confederate General on its side. Mengsk told Duke he was a "general without an army" if he stayed with the Confederacy. Nevertheless, the zerg did all the work in "overthrowing", and we didn't go launching attacks on capital planets singlehandedly. True, we also slowed down the Fleet of the Executor (not defeated, the protoss were still there in the zerg campaign). But hey, it was at the apex of our victory.

BW - We were the combined might of the United Earth Directorate. We had massive resources, advanced terran technology, a massive army, and skillful generals. We deserved to win, but were screwed over by Duran and overthrown. Being powerful did not prevent the UED from making mistakes, and unlike WoL, reality did not shift to accommodate them just because that's who we were playing.

WoL - We played as the leader of a single outdated battlecruiser which was established in the previous lore as well as the game itself to be down to a handful of downtrodden volunteers. Not deterred by such petty trivialities, we invaded the Dominion's capital city, beat the Fleet of the Executor, broke open the most highly guarded prison in the sector, and salvaged the Invasion of Char, all because we were resourceful/badass/genius. As a result, when people ask logical questions like "how did Raynor beat Selendis's fleet?" we're given answers like "suspension of disbelief".

[Hawki]

SC1 - Played as a powerful "extremist faction" with actual resources, troops, and a Confederate General on its side. Mengsk told Duke he was a "general without an army" if he stayed with the Confederacy.

Meaning what? Duke isn't exactly the most competent general in the universe, and Alpha Squadron still existed in the game in some form.

Nevertheless, the zerg did all the work in "overthrowing",

Antiga Prime would like to disagree. Took the Confeds head-on with the rebels, and won. Also the issue of the SoK being able to defeat the zerg in-game whereas lore points in the opposite direction. At least in WoL we didn't take on the zerg directly until we were meant to.

and we didn't go launching attacks on capital planets singlehandedly.

Tarsonis was. Zerg arrived later, but it was a head-on assault, the SoK lasting long enough to establish the psi emitters.

True, we also slowed down the Fleet of the Executor (not defeated, the protoss were still there in the zerg campaign).

The force sent against us was distinctly defeated. Fleet itself was fine though.

BW - We were the combined might of the United Earth Directorate. We had massive resources, advanced terran technology, a massive army, and skillful generals.

We were an expeditionary fleet with generals that certainly weren't above making mistakes.

WoL - We played as the leader of a single outdated battlecruiser which was established in the previous lore as well as the game itself to be down to a handful of downtrodden volunteers.

Think "handful" is iffy. Numbers almost certainly increased over the years since the movement was anti-Dominion, not to mention it was (once, at least) supported by the KMC. And then there were the mercs. And colonists. And Tosh's forces. And...well, you get the picture.

Not deterred by such petty trivialities, we invaded the Dominion's capital city,

Raided. And the only reason it could be raided at all was because of the Odin providing a distraction.

beat the Fleet of the Executor,

Yeah, can't fault this too much. If on Tarsonis we defeat the protoss in open battle, we beat the protoss on Haven by taking out their Achiles heel (the Purifier) then forcing them to retreat. SoK bigger than Raiders, Tassadar's fleet bigger than Selendis's (unless there's a source establishing its size-if not, the Haven fleet is really small going by the number of ships in-game). It's probably the biggest suspension of disbelief, but I can't fault it too much.

broke open the most highly guarded prison in the sector,

With Tosh's help. Another non-conventional attack.

and salvaged the Invasion of Char, all because we were resourceful/badass/genius.

Meaning? Mengsk was established to be something of a tactical genius. Managed to do even more than Raynor did. At least on Char we had an army to lead.

As a result, when people ask logical questions like "how did Raynor beat Selendis's fleet?" we're given answers like "suspension of disbelief".

You expected otherwise? I mean, yeah, I wouldn't expect those exact words, but then again, I wouldn't have asked that question in the first place. Suspension of disbelief in games is the exception rather than the rule. Least in my own experience.

[Gradius]

Meaning what? Duke isn't exactly the most competent general in the universe, and Alpha Squadron still existed in the game in some form.

His string of defeats notwithstanding, Duke is a competent general. Mengsk says "a Confederate general could prove to be a powerful ally". Kerrigan says "Without the services of General Duke, Mengsk will be easy to deal with."

Either way, the point is that the Sons of Korhal are more than your run-of-the-mill terrorist group if Duke is willing to join them.

Antiga Prime would like to disagree. Took the Confeds head-on with the rebels, and won.

The key-phrase is "with the rebels". It's not exactly difficult to take a planet when most of its people are on your side to begin with. That's why I don't complain that the very first mission in WoL is Raynor liberating Mar Sara from Mengsk's rule.

The SoK are powerful & competent enough to challenge the Confederacy directly. That is why you can't compare it to Wings of Liberty. Nevertheless, when the Confederates arrived in force (Delta Squadron), they started getting worried and had to use the zerg to break the blockade so they could escape. The excuse that "you never fight anyone head-on" applies to Rebel Yell much more than it does to Wings of Liberty. It should be the opposite, and that's why SC1 was more believable than WoL.

Tarsonis was. Zerg arrived later, but it was a head-on assault, the SoK lasting long enough to establish the psi emitters.

Sure, it was a head-on assault....one that they would have lost had they decided to stay. One might even venture to say that it was....a raid.

Anyway, the fact that they accomplished even that is proof that unlike the Raiders, they have actual military resources. In WoL, the argument is made that Raynor steers clear of everyone and doesn't fight them directly. But this idea always seems to get shelved when Raynor takes on Selendis, Korhal, Char, New Folsom, etc.

The force sent against us was distinctly defeated.

At a cost:

"The fleet has lost contact with the ground forces at New Gettysburg. General Mengsk has ordered the immediate disengagement of the Korhal fleet from the Tarsonian system."

We were an expeditionary fleet with generals that certainly weren't above making mistakes.

That's what I said:

"Being powerful did not prevent the UED from making mistakes, and unlike WoL, reality did not shift to accommodate them just because that's who we were playing."

Think "handful" is iffy. Numbers almost certainly increased over the years since the movement was anti-Dominion, not to mention it was (once, at least) supported by the KMC. And then there were the mercs. And colonists. And Tosh's forces. And...well, you get the picture.

The "handful" is from Raynor saying it himself in the game. Which itself is from the fact that there were 40 people left at the end of the QoB novel. Colonists & mercs? Ok fine. But that doesn't do much for me because at no point in the game were Raynor's forces implied to have grown, apart from Tosh (an optional branch). Not that "colonists & mercs" are a justification for half the stuff Raynor does. And what if you choose to betray Tosh early in the game? How does that justify doing anything else you're doing?

Raided. And the only reason it could be raided at all was because of the Odin providing a distraction.

We've talked about this. Raynor mentioning a Command Center and the camera panning to show it landing proves that it's not a raid. I've said it multiple times, but Raynor shouldn't be able to even get past Korhal's orbit.

Or do they expect us to believe that Raynor sneaked in via some random dropship, and acquired that Command Center on the ground? If so, just how did he sneak the rest of his army down there? Either way it's unbelievable.

Yeah, can't fault this too much. If on Tarsonis we defeat the protoss in open battle, we beat the protoss on Haven by taking out their Achiles heel (the Purifier) then forcing them to retreat. SoK bigger than Raiders, Tassadar's fleet bigger than Selendis's (unless there's a source establishing its size-if not, the Haven fleet is really small going by the number of ships in-game). It's probably the biggest suspension of disbelief, but I can't fault it too much.

Who cares about their Purifier? Do the protoss honestly not have smaller craft capable of countering vikings? Raynor should simply not be able to fight against Selendis's fleet and go take out the nexi all at the same time. Saying that "Selendis's fleet was smaller than Tassadar's" is a cop-out, because any single one of the carriers or void rays we saw in game could have taken out the Hyperion, whereas the exact size of the forces in SC1 wasn't all that clear.

Meaning? Mengsk was established to be something of a tactical genius. Managed to do even more than Raynor did. At least on Char we had an army to lead.

Meaning that Warfield keeps showering us with praise for saving "his boys" remarking how Raynor would "make a fine staff-officer", further continuing the player's ego-trip.

Mengsk basically started sucking as soon as Raynor left (his multiple defeats in BW come to mind). But even I didn't expect Mengsk's downward spiral to continue this long.

Suspension of disbelief in games is the exception rather than the rule. Least in my own experience.

Which makes me sad to hear you say. It's like saying "A game having a story is like a porno having a story: nice, but unnecessary."

Anyway, I firmly believe that the purpose of an RTS campaign should be to mitigate suspension of disbelief - make it seem like those little guys running around down there are representing something that could realistically happen in this universe: good world-building & all that. This isn't helped when the SP campaign doesn't take itself seriously enough to acknowledge clear & decisive military defeats such as the Dominion's. I've said it multiple times but it's sad that I have more suspension of disbelief watching a multiplayer match than I do playing the campaign.

[Hawki]

We've talked about this. Raynor mentioning a Command Center and the camera panning to show it landing proves that it's not a raid. I've said it multiple times, but Raynor shouldn't be able to even get past Korhal's orbit.

Also Horner called in every favour and whatnot. Worked in Return of the Jedi, works in WoL too I guess.

Saying that "Selendis's fleet was smaller than Tassadar's" is a cop-out, because any single one of the carriers or void rays we saw in game could have taken out the Hyperion, whereas the exact size of the forces in SC1 wasn't all that clear.

Around 80 protoss ships as I recall for SC1. SoK had...one battlecruiser, plus maybe a few more? Certainly Selendis's fleet was smaller than Tassadar's.

Which makes me sad to hear you say. It's like saying "A game having a story is like a porno having a story: nice, but unnecessary."

No, you misunderstand me. Suspending disbelief isn't the same as saying this doesn't need/has no story. If I'm playing a game, I accept I'll be suspending my disbelief more than, say, a novel. I'll accept that I'm (playing as) x, and can accomplish incredible things. Course a lot of it depends on the genre too.

Anyway, I firmly believe that the purpose of an RTS campaign should be to mitigate suspension of disbelief - make it seem like those little guys running around down there are representing something that could realistically happen in this universe: good world-building & all that.

Huh. It's kind of the opposite for me. Actually, scratch that, the exact opposite. I can't say what a RTS/RTT/TBS should do in terms of story, but when I like at the series of the above genres I'm familiar with, and look at which I consider the best in terms of story, none of them I'd call the most realistic in their respective series. Well, to each their own I guess.

[Turalyon]

Huh, so not only do we disagree on WoL, but on The Hobbit as well. Go figure.

What's there to figure? I didn't say I didn't like it (I do), all I said was that The Hobbit film is quite telling in that there isn't enough material to justify a trilogy. I can say, critically though, that the film is quite bogged down with extraneous material as if someone didn't know what the term "editing" meant. I was just comparing this issue to the hypothetical nature of HotS possibly containing "extraneous material" (those pointless resource-collecting/infestation missions that have no narrative or plot movement) despite it's shorter length. It remains to be seen if WoL itself is largely superfluous to the trilogy as a whole (that's another discussion in itself) but if HotS, which is supposedly shorter to give it more focus, has a large number of this "extraneous material" then the question of whether why SC2 had to be a trilogy in the first place becomes quite pertinent. Was this material, worth many novels I hear, really that important? We shall see...

I think the zerg have more potential for change than most other 'bug species' in that at the least, they had actual characters (Overmind, cerebrates, Kerrigan, etc.) rather than a single hivemind, or no characters at all.

All those Zerg characters in Sc1, even Kerrigan to some degree, are all facets of a single hivemind. Think of it as a multiple personalities disorder where all personalities are part of each other and work willingly in unison as one.

Didn't get the sense of Raynor representing terrans as a whole.....Given the current powerplays between the terran factions, and how the UED is completely isolated from them, I don't think any one faction/character can represent humanity as a whole.

Neither did I and that more the pity. As to the "representation of of humanity as a whole", Rebel Yell does a fair job of representing the Terran racial identity through the personality traits of Raynor, Mengsk, Kerrigan and Duke. We can see the tenacity, naivete, morality etc. of the Terran people as reflected at various levels at various times within those characters. The characters can be pinned down to a certain archetype sure but they have a semblance of room to move beyond it whereas in WoL, the majority of the characters don't move beyond stereotype stage: Raynor is the brooding hero guy whose touch is golden no matter what, Tychus is the untrustworthy "friend", Mengsk is the bad, bad (and inept?) man and Kerrigan is the vampy, snarling villainess and these are the main characters. The side characters don't fair much better: Hanson is the damsel in distress, Tosh is the scary black guy with a sinister agenda... need I go on?

Can't decide what the most appropriate title for WoL should really be:
1) StarCraft II: The Jim Raynor Show
2) StarCraft II: Find the Artifacts
3) StarCraft II: Cowboys & Aliens
4) StarCraft II: Superman Returns

While "Find the Artifacts" is accurate & succinct, I can't help but feel that "Superman Returns" captures the essence of the game, highlighting Raynor's return from his 4 years of "debilitating alcoholism". *cough cough

I think "Cowboys & Aliens" fits because at the least, it is both apt (I mean, seriously, does anyone have an explanation for why it's called Wings of Liberty?) and spoils the story the least compared to the other ones.

Apparently building giant superweapons & armies is considered "a sign of rebuilding" and therefore "a sign of weakness". :P

Yes, much like what the world thought of Germany before something called WWII started. Whoops!

Can't ever say I ever went on an ego trip since in WoL, our actions were small in scale until allying with the Dominion itself.

Then you're not doing it right obviously. Didn't Blizz tell you? WoL is supposed to be EPICCCCCCC!

And if you want to make the argument that either should have become outright dominant post-BW, the fact is that neither were really set up for it in a story sense. SC1/BW, we get one KMC appearence, no UP appearence, no mention/sighting of any characters from said factions, and the statement that the Dominion was going to rebuild.

There was no setup or hope of Mengsk ever becoming ruler of the K sector either... until the Zerg happened to come along. The non-appearance of outside and potentially powerful factions doesn't also mean they are not in a position to do anything about a sudden shift in status quo (there is a logical fallacy here).

Find it also iffy that people cry foul over the Dominion and not the Protoss Protectorate/Daelaam, how the shattering of their power should have left the board open for 'lesser species' to do as they pleased...

The Protoss only watched over peaceful lesser species and eradicated the potentially more troublesome ones. They are called lesser for a reason - they don't have enough influence on galactic stage to do anything whereas organisations like the KMC and UP conceivably can. The lesser species are probably doing as they please within their limited capabilities already. Either that or are hiding in fear of the Zerg (or consumed by them even).

[Telenil]

Um, the fact that the Dominion is barely holding together, with rebellion and internal dissent running rife? The fact that the KMC and UP are mentioned to be fighting their own wars, as the independent bodies they became after the Brood War? The fact that they had to send half their fleet to establish a mere beachhead on Char, the notion of taking Kerrigan head-on never really a possibility? The fact that if not for Kerrigan's true goals it could have easily been erradicated? The fact that they had to abandon an entire section of space to hold any ground at all, turning away refugees from said sector of space? The fact that part of holding that ground is part of the innovations they made after BW, the whole 'essence' of the new terran units in flavour lore (similar to the flavour lore of protoss HotS units)? The fact that it's become far more draconian since BW?

Could go on, but playing WoL, I never got the sense of the Dominion being all powerful, only it being like the Confederacy at the end of its era. The rotten tree, to borrow words from Asimov. Looks strong until it's blasted apart.

Are you saying the Dominion is weak because it can't take the Zerg Swarm on its own? If it could, that would have made it ridiculously overpowered, dwarfing the current inconsistencies. At no point in Starcraft or Brood War could the Dominion or the Confederacy have defeated the Zerg, the fact that they still can't do it now doesn't mean anything.

Also, I still don't see how the Dominion is "barely holding together". The attack on Korhal in which Mengsk is exposed as Tarsonis' destroyer (with an audio recording that could have been faked in the 80s, but whatever) resulted in riots and discontent but not large scale revolt, and Raynor believes the Dominion is "going to spin this around like everything else". That doesn't sound like a power on the verge of collapsing to me.
Note that in the latest novel, Mengsk shot the remainder of the fleet that took down Kerrigan with his popular son inside it, after the end of the Zerg invasion, and that apparently still didn't spark a civil war.

[Hawki]

Neither did I and that more the pity. As to the "representation of of humanity as a whole", Rebel Yell does a fair job of representing the Terran racial identity through the personality traits of Raynor, Mengsk, Kerrigan and Duke. We can see the tenacity, naivete, morality etc. of the Terran people as reflected at various levels at various times within those characters.

Opposite impression for me. Rebel Yell depicted a very narrow band of humanity. We get rednecks in space for the expendable cinematic characters, and only four real characters in the context of the campaign itself. Mengsk and Duke are on one side of the spectrum, and 'win.' Raynor's on the other, and 'loses.' Kerrigan's somewhere in-between, but still gets screwed over. WoL, in contrast, although we're playing as the 'good guys', has a broader moral spectrum. Horner and Hanson on one end, Tosh and Tychus on the other, Raynor somewhere in the middle. WoL depicts imperfect, varied humanity with different occupations/personas while Rebel Yell is more limited by its character base. And while WoL has a 'face' for its enemy (Mengsk), Rebel Yell...doesn't. Unless you include Duke, but he stops being an enemy halfway through.

Are you saying the Dominion is weak because it can't take the Zerg Swarm on its own?

No, but many people seem to cite the invasion as 'proof' of the Dominion being strong.

Also, I still don't see how the Dominion is "barely holding together". The attack on Korhal in which Mengsk is exposed as Tarsonis' destroyer (with an audio recording that could have been faked in the 80s, but whatever) resulted in riots and discontent but not large scale revolt,

Apparently you missed the newscasts/ticker tape that mention Dominion worlds revolting/declaring independence left, right and center. To quote Lockwell "Tonight on UNN -- Another world has broken into open revolt, and Emperor Mengsk still refuses to give any interviews. Is the Dominion falling apart around us?" Well, considering how much rebellion was going on before the Second Great War, how many colonies say "screw you" to the Dominion during the war, and how pretty much every Dominion citizen loathes Mengsk post-Media Blitz, I think it's pretty indicative that it's going down the same route as the Confederacy, and will as long as Arcturus remains in charge.

and Raynor believes the Dominion is "going to spin this around like everything else".

A belief that Horner immediately refutes.

Note that in the latest novel, Mengsk shot the remainder of the fleet that took down Kerrigan with his popular son inside it, after the end of the Zerg invasion, and that apparently still didn't spark a civil war.

Not sure how it could, considering that the average Dominion citizen probably doesn't even know of these events, not to mention that the events of the novel take place over just a few days.

[Turalyon]

... only four real characters in the context of the campaign itself.

Just one single and genuine character is much better than any number of caricatures.

Mengsk and Duke are on one side of the spectrum, and 'win.' Raynor's on the other, and 'loses.' Kerrigan's somewhere in-between, but still gets screwed over. WoL, in contrast, although we're playing as the 'good guys', has a broader moral spectrum. Horner and Hanson on one end, Tosh and Tychus on the other, Raynor somewhere in the middle. WoL depicts imperfect, varied humanity with different occupations/personas while Rebel Yell is more limited by its character base. And while WoL has a 'face' for its enemy (Mengsk), Rebel Yell...doesn't. Unless you include Duke, but he stops being an enemy halfway through.

Being easily defined on a "moral spectrum" does not "make" a character. Rather it pigeon holes them very easily into stereotypes, which is what WoL does. Every character in Rebel Yell exhibits some level of moral greyness and they are richer and more realistic for it. As to Rebel Yell lacking a distinct enemy, there are many antagonists (the Confederacy, the Zerg and the Protoss) depicted throughout the campaign but they pale in comparison to the more subtle, insidious and perhaps greatest enemy to the Terrans: themselves. It's depicted by Mengsk in a more traditional and obvious manner but also symbolically in Raynor's late moral stand based on hypocritical reasons. It was morally OK for him to accept use of Psi Emitters on Antiga Prime to escape the Confederates at the cost of Antigan lives but not OK to use them to remove an inefficient, lazy and corrupt institution at the cost of Tarsonian lives.

Apparently you missed the newscasts/ticker tape that mention Dominion worlds revolting/declaring independence left, right and center. To quote Lockwell "Tonight on UNN -- Another world has broken into open revolt, and Emperor Mengsk still refuses to give any interviews. Is the Dominion falling apart around us?"

I think it's pretty clear at this stage that it is not clear in WoL that the Dominions is "barely holding together" especially if you have to resort to the newscasts (the go-to source of comic relief in WoL, which as a result, diminishes and removes any seriousness that could or should have been taken at face value) for your evidence of such an "obvious fact".