Q&A #9

[Hawki]

Considered replying in individual quote format, but felt too awkward. So, responding in point form (keeping my argument to the context of WoL):

1) Pre-BW, the Dominion is allied with the KMC and UP. Post-BW, they aren't. Post-BW, not only have the KMC and UP broken away, but are pretty much sparring partners for influence. While the Dominion is still the top terran dog, the power plays are more pronounced than the Confederate era, which post-GW, dominated terran space, the KMC and UP being rather minor.

2) Pre-BW, the only rebel group distinctly against the Dominion (that we know of) was the CRF, and given Duran's true motivations, it's iffy whether if not for him, it would have even been founded. Post-BW, there's rebel groups everywhere.

3) The Dominion is still in no position to hold back the zerg if it was the zerg's actual aim to erradicate the empire. The only reason Kerrigan is de-infested is that she was after the artifacts rather than conquest, and that the artifacts were used against her.

4) The Dominion is different politically than its pre-BW days. Pre-BW, the seeds of tyranny were there, but only in a relatively small scale, and mostly confined to EU lore. Post-BW, the Dominion has become totalitarian. It may have been a path it took, but I don't think the Brood War helped. Weakens the Dominion, loses alliance with KMC and UP, loses control, so Mengsk does what the Confederacy did, as he put it - plays the tyrant, surviving by presenting other tyrants as threats.

5) There's a difference between the protoss and Dominion situation. The zerg are a destroying force. They destroy not only their enemies, but infrastructure. Destroy so much that come the end of GW, the protoss have to move en masse to Shakuras, and come SGW, only have a few known worlds. In contrast, the UED are an occupying force. They destroy armed forces, but occupy Korhal and Braxis, and they're the only two worlds we know they occupied. The Dominion may have lost its armed forces post-BW, but not their infrastructure. The protoss, in contrast, are down to only a few known worlds.

So yeah, the whole "BW never happened thing" feels like a stretch. True, there are things they could have done in WoL that might have helped reinforce this. Mention raiding of scrapyards, the re-industrialization process Mengsk launched in 2501, the fact that the Dominion has had to innovate (new units), etc. But these would be, at the most, lines of dialogue. I can't look at the Dominion in WoL, look at it in BW, and say "huh, nothing's changed." Not when its raw power is weaker, its power share is weaker, and when it's become a far more oppressive state.

[Gradius]

Personal gripe, but I did mention ‘hate’ above, and I guess this is it. The way Kindragen defends WoL. I don’t want to go into the ‘ethics’ of artists defending their work, but long story short, there’s a certain method that should be followed (or at least one I’ve been taught to follow, or learnt how to) and it doesn’t involve “well, I think it’s good, you just don’t get it.” Which, looking at the last post, is basically what it boils down to. Yes, the question wasn’t really a question, but I expect something better from a writer who actually does it as a living. Yes, I like WoL. Yes, I will defend WoL. But there are still valid criticisms against it (as in all forms of art), and there’s a certain method to defending a piece of work than what’s done in the thread.

Like I said, personal gripe, but it’s a trend I’ve noticed from Kindragen before. And it bugs me as much now as it did in the past.

I just don't get why he picked this question and forced himself to answer to the "cardboard characters" allegation. Even I don't think the characters are cardboard per-se, but picking this kind of question is just tactless.

[ImperialGuard]

The Tosh choice was actually one of the stupidest in the game. And they're both pirates/rebels, so they should be best-friends anyway. I feel that Kindregan has not read any of the criticism against Wings of Liberty. =/

So all pirates and rebels are best friends? How did you come to that conclusion?

His comment seemed spot on too me. Tosh and Raynor both wanted to overthrow Mengsk, but Tosh was crossing moral lines that Raynor would never cross like targeting civilian buildings.

[Gradius]

So all pirates and rebels are best friends? How did you come to that conclusion?

It's called sarcasm.

His comment seemed spot on too me. Tosh and Raynor both wanted to overthrow Mengsk, but Tosh was crossing moral lines that Raynor would never cross like targeting civilian buildings.

You're referring to an obscure newscast where Tosh & his spectres weren't even directly implicated? It's too bad that all the Dominion worlds and installations that Raynor assaulted can also be said to have innocent civilians on them as well. The whole point of the Tosh arc is to assist him with his pirate/rebel activities....so how exactly can Raynor be said to be morally superior? Raynor had no problems plundering artifacts that didn't belong to him and killing protoss that did absolutely nothing wrong. So, no.

But the main problem with your hypothesis is it's not supported by the game itself. Raynor's problem with Tosh is that he doesn't know if he can trust him, not that he disagrees with his methods. In fact, I don't remember him disagreeing with Tosh's methods at all.

[RetlocLive]

Highly debatable here. I (and quite a few others it seems) don't get the feeling the Dominion are in a sorry state at all in WoL, what with all the rebuilding and the "being stronger than ever before" vibe the game sends off. By the end of BW, the Terrans as a whole are in total shambles. It's quite ironic (and perhaps more truthful?) to see the UED's legacy in BW as an overall lessening of Terran power even further in the K-sector when they gutted and dismantled the only Terran power (the Dominion) at the time and their own subsequent and systematic defeat.

With this in mind, the fact that Kindregan goes on to explain that the UED's time in BW provided no geopolitical change is actually the only justifiable (like it or not) reason to explain why WoL's landscape is the way it is now (ie: Dominion being all rosy and still in secure power as if nothing happened).

Funny thing is it wasn't even the UED that completely dismantled the Dominion. He disregarded the fact that Kerrigan's swarm continued to do a number on him after the UED took control of Korhal.

The main problem I have is that no rebuilding/repercussions was seen in-game to justify the Dominion's sudden return to power; that apparently nothing I accomplished against the Dominion in BW amounted to anything meaningful in the long run. BW built up what looked like a continued downward spiral towards Mengsk's rule. In return, I came into WoL expecting to see the Dominion in the state of rebuilding; that Mengsk would be struggling to hold his position after enduring such a string of massive defeats. Instead, the first glimpse I see in WoL is Mengsk standing triumphant with the Dominion standing as the top dogs and I'm just wondering to myself...what the hell did they accomplish to make this happen? I just spent most of BW beating the Dominion to oblivion, why are they still all powerful as if I barely touched them? What on earth did beating them down in BW accomplish?

It just pisses me off that what I accomplished in weakening the Dominion throughout Brood War... results in nothing changing the next time we see the Dominion at the start of WoL.

[Turalyon]

1) Pre-BW, the Dominion is allied with the KMC and UP. Post-BW, they aren't. Post-BW, not only have the KMC and UP broken away, but are pretty much sparring partners for influence. While the Dominion is still the top terran dog, the power plays are more pronounced than the Confederate era, which post-GW, dominated terran space, the KMC and UP being rather minor.

2) Pre-BW, the only rebel group distinctly against the Dominion (that we know of) was the CRF, and given Duran's true motivations, it's iffy whether if not for him, it would have even been founded. Post-BW, there's rebel groups everywhere.

I'm glad to see that you seem to have a solid tack on all this canon, because none of it is telegraphed in BW or WoL by any means. Never in SC1 or BW is it explicit that the Dominion is allied with the KMC and UP or in anyway affiliated/best buds so I don't know how sure you can be without reading the EU. I'm not sure about your sweeping generalisation that there was only one pirate group against the Dominion either (really? Does anyone truly buy that?) either.

All in all, this hinges on one knowing the expanded universe. Not having much knowledge of this EU, it all seems rather arbitrary to me. It just seems to be another "well, you should have read the book" excuse. I don't know what the lored-up WoL naysayers like Gradius think of this though since according to those claim above, they should know better!

3) The Dominion is still in no position to hold back the zerg if it was the zerg's actual aim to erradicate the empire.

This is a given. If the Protoss couldn't stop the Zerg, the Terrans are unlikely to either. Either way, just saying that the Dominion in it's current state can't defend against the Zerg is not a proper justification to explain why the Dominion has magically reformed with power intact and then actually gained greater strength than the Confederates shortly after BW.

4) The Dominion is different politically than its pre-BW days. Pre-BW, the seeds of tyranny were there, but only in a relatively small scale, and mostly confined to EU lore. Post-BW, the Dominion has become totalitarian. It may have been a path it took, but I don't think the Brood War helped. Weakens the Dominion, loses alliance with KMC and UP, loses control, so Mengsk does what the Confederacy did, as he put it - plays the tyrant, surviving by presenting other tyrants as threats.

The issue here is time frame. You talk about pre-BW and post-BW Dominion as if there was a great span of time between them. There isn't, BW was only a matter of months. At the end of BW, the Dominion was shattered. Not only does it have to pick up its pieces but then it suddenly decides to become fully totalitarian just like that and expect it to work out (of course it worked out, WoL shows us this )? They have no power whatsoever by BWs end, how can they possibly dupe enough people into following them whilst enacting their post-BW fully totalitarian regime?

5) There's a difference between the protoss and Dominion situation. The zerg are a destroying force. They destroy not only their enemies, but infrastructure. Destroy so much that come the end of GW, the protoss have to move en masse to Shakuras, and come SGW, only have a few known worlds. In contrast, the UED are an occupying force. They destroy armed forces, but occupy Korhal and Braxis, and they're the only two worlds we know they occupied. The Dominion may have lost its armed forces post-BW, but not their infrastructure. The protoss, in contrast, are down to only a few known worlds.

I'm well aware of the actual physical differences between that comparison. The Dominion, as I had mentioned previously and elsewhere, should not be synonymous with "overall Terran might/capability" but rather Mengsk as a person. When I say the Dominions is shattered and destroyed, I'm talking about their political clout, their influence, their power to utilise this "overall Terran might/capability". This is what the UED destroyed. Mengsk is literally left with nothing by BWs end and to have him suddenly and magically "much better than OK" in WoL is head-scratching.

Not when its raw power is weaker, its power share is weaker, and when it's become a far more oppressive state.

That maybe so, but there is nothing else to compare the Dominion against in WoL. As far as a layman can tell, the Dominion is not weak in any form in WoL, just inept (like it's leader).

The main problem I have is that no rebuilding/repercussions was seen in-game to justify the Dominion's sudden return to power; that apparently nothing I accomplished against the Dominion in BW amounted to anything meaningful in the long run. BW built up what looked like a continued downward spiral towards Mengsk's rule. In return, I came into WoL expecting to see the Dominion in the state of rebuilding; that Mengsk would be struggling to hold his position after enduring such a string of massive defeats. Instead, the first glimpse I see in WoL is Mengsk standing triumphant with the Dominion standing as the top dogs

Hawki will beg to differ. I can see where he's coming from and his interpretation makes sense - the only thing is that it just isn't strongly self-evident anywhere in WoL and at the best, obscure. As a result, it comes across to some as the Dominion/ Mengsk having plot armour until they are written to have otherwise.

what the hell did they accomplish to make this happen? I just spent most of BW beating the Dominion to oblivion, why are they still all powerful as if I barely touched them? What on earth did beating them down in BW accomplish?

Well, as Kindregan seems to suggest, nothing. Since the UED came and then got defeated, he acknowledges that nothing really happened in BW so it is logical to assume that anything the UED did (like destroying the Dominion) has no significant long-lasting consequence.

[Hawki]

You're referring to an obscure newscast where Tosh & his spectres weren't even directly implicated? It's too bad that all the Dominion worlds and installations that Raynor assaulted can also be said to have innocent civilians on them as well. The whole point of the Tosh arc is to assist him with his pirate/rebel activities....so how exactly can Raynor be said to be morally superior? Raynor had no problems plundering artifacts that didn't belong to him and killing protoss that did absolutely nothing wrong. So, no.

But the main problem with your hypothesis is it's not supported by the game itself. Raynor's problem with Tosh is that he doesn't know if he can trust him, not that he disagrees with his methods. In fact, I don't remember him disagreeing with Tosh's methods at all.

I'd say the point of the Tosh arc is the concept of "a mirror darkly," but that's probably been discussed to death by you elsewhere. And the Tal'darim are hardly innocent either. It would have been better if their ruthlessness was established before Monlyth, but as they're quite happy to kill any terran who trespasses (e.g. the Moebius Foundation) and imprison Nerazim for the crime of being Nerazim...yeah. Not exactly knights in shining power suits.

I came into WoL expecting to see the Dominion in the state of rebuilding; that Mengsk would be struggling to hold his position after enduring such a string of massive defeats. Instead, the first glimpse I see in WoL is Mengsk standing triumphant with the Dominion standing as the top dogs and I'm just wondering to myself...what the hell did they accomplish to make this happen?

Um...okay. Couple of pointers:

*I'm not sure how the Dominion's military might actually surprised anyone. Even if one was completely ignorant of every EU and DLC product, did everyone really turn a blind eye to Ghost? You know, a game that showed the Dominion in a similar state as WoL? Rebuilt military, rebellion rife, their ability to function based on innovative new technologies? Anyone?

*We know of two Dominion worlds damaged in BW - Braxis and Korhal. Braxis, we don't see in WoL. Korhal...is problematic, admittedly. It's getting into semantics, but when you think of the concept art it was based on, Augustgrad does seem a bit too...shiny. Building up a military is one thing. Building up infrastructure and de-toxifying a planet at the same time is another.

*Mengsk is struggling to hold onto his position. The first mission, we're sparking a revolt ala Antiga Prime. The first time we see Mengsk, he's being confronted with the issues of brushfire rebellions. Kind of like the Confederacy, where Mengsk speaks of the Confederacy falling apart, its colonies in open revolt, etc. Anyone?

So yeah. I don't want to do a Kindragen and say "well, you just don't get it," but the fact that the first thing we see of Mengsk is the rebellion issue, the fact that the first mission is sparking a rebellion that exists due to pre-existing sentiment...well, yeah. To each their own I guess.

I'm glad to see that you seem to have a solid tack on all this canon, because none of it is telegraphed in BW or WoL by any means. Never in SC1 or BW is it explicit that the Dominion is allied with the KMC and UP or in anyway affiliated/best buds so I don't know how sure you can be without reading the EU.

It's stated in the BW manual that the colonies were united.

I'm not sure about your sweeping generalisation that there was only one pirate group against the Dominion either (really? Does anyone truly buy that?) either.

I'm not saying there is, just it's the only one we know of. Come WoL, the dissidence is hammered over and over again (and Ghost, and everything in-between games, but whatever). In BW, apart from the CRF, there isn't any mention of anti-Dominion activities.

All in all, this hinges on one knowing the expanded universe. Not having much knowledge of this EU, it all seems rather arbitrary to me. It just seems to be another "well, you should have read the book" excuse. I don't know what the lored-up WoL naysayers like Gradius think of this though since according to those claim above, they should know better!

I'm trying to keep my evidence to game material as we're discussing WoL itself. If we're discussing the universe as a whole, I'd comment that IMO, the Dominion build-up was done quite well. Stage 1 being the "hopelessness stage" (ala Mercenaries, end of BW), stage 2 being the "great leap forward" (utilizing/rebuilding its infrastructure), stage 3 being the seeds of discontent (protests/rebel groups popping up) and new war machines (ala the Viking), stage 4 being a re-emerging power (DTS), stage 5 being WoL. The timeline of events progresses quite naturally for the most part, bar the occasional blip (case in point being the blockade it enforced against the UP).

But speaking of WoL itself, I think we see stage 5 in itself well enough. A rebuilt Dominion (in part) that's held together by fear and force. The problem is that WoL doesn't do enough to reference stages 2 to 4, stuff that I think could have been covered in the loading screens or dialogue. We're told that the Dominion has been rebuilt, but now how, so to speak. Or at least, perhaps not enough as some people might have liked.

I'll reiterate that "well, read the books" isn't a valid excuse. Nor is "read a wiki," because yes, info can be got for free there, but if you have to do homework to enjoy something, you run into the same problem. But again, the whole "nothing happened in BW!" argument does seem like the other logical extreme, because it seems that not only people didn't get 'it' from WoL, but were in the dark about Ghost as well. I can't look at the WoL Dominion without seeing a corrupt body that's bursting at the seems, that's become as bad as the Confederacy, and say "huh, nothing's changed" in good conscience. Not when Kerrigan has come back "to finish the job," as Raynor puts it, said job beginning in BW, and the zerg mass power being so great that the only reason the Dominion can hold any ground is to write off the Fringe Worlds, and hope that Kerrigan doesn't actually bother with much bar hunting the artifacts.

This is a given. If the Protoss couldn't stop the Zerg, the Terrans are unlikely to either. Either way, just saying that the Dominion in it's current state can't defend against the Zerg is not a proper justification to explain why the Dominion has magically reformed with power intact and then actually gained greater strength than the Confederates shortly after BW.

Actually, at this point in time, I'd say the terrans are stronger than the protoss, but that's beside the point. Nor can I say the Dominion has more power than the Confederacy. The "strength" people cite the Dominion as having is more along the lines of innovation. New units that can do a better job of killing zerg, to actual bayonets on gauss rifles, to a better understanding of how to fight. Probably getting into fanwank territory, but compare the trench scenes of BW and WoL. In BW, terrans are victims, fighting for their lives, zerg are terrifying. Come WoL, the line can be held, the zerg less terrifying. I'm citing 'it' again, but 'it', in WoL for me, was a sign that humanity was coming into its own, that despite the fact that the zerg were disproportiantely more powerful, were no longer mere bystanders in a cosmic war between the zerg and protoss. Of course, HotS may throw that out the window, and I know that many people will disagree with my interpretation of 'it,' but I did and do give WoL credit for presenting 'it.'

The issue here is time frame. You talk about pre-BW and post-BW Dominion as if there was a great span of time between them. There isn't, BW was only a matter of months. At the end of BW, the Dominion was shattered. Not only does it have to pick up its pieces but then it suddenly decides to become fully totalitarian just like that and expect it to work out (of course it worked out, WoL shows us this )? They have no power whatsoever by BWs end, how can they possibly dupe enough people into following them whilst enacting their post-BW fully totalitarian regime?

Putting it simply, the same way Napoleon stays in power in Animal Farm. Despite failing the people, despite their enemies occupying the land, said enemies are still portrayed as a worse alternative to the chance of strength through unity. And when those alternatives in the Brood War were the UED (invaders from Earth, the proverbial bogymen of terran culture for the last few centuries) and the zerg ('nuff said), it's understandable that some would stick with the old. It's also understandable that some wouldn't, hence the prevalance of rebellion against the Dominion. The totalitarianism works for those that endure it, not so well for those who don't considering how many enemies the Dominion has.

[Gradius]

*I'm not sure how the Dominion's military might actually surprised anyone. Even if one was completely ignorant of every EU and DLC product, did everyone really turn a blind eye to Ghost? You know, a game that showed the Dominion in a similar state as WoL? Rebuilt military, rebellion rife, their ability to function based on innovative new technologies? Anyone?

I never followed ghost. Did it actually show the Dominion as more powerful than Umoja & the KMC?

*We know of two Dominion worlds damaged in BW - Braxis and Korhal.

We couldn't very well play on every single Dominion planet as the UED. It was stated that the UED clamped down on the rest of the Dominion. A "signpost" of storytelling.

*Mengsk is struggling to hold onto his position. The first mission, we're sparking a revolt ala Antiga Prime. The first time we see Mengsk, he's being confronted with the issues of brushfire rebellions. Kind of like the Confederacy, where Mengsk speaks of the Confederacy falling apart, its colonies in open revolt, etc. Anyone?

You mean this:

"Emperor, the threat of a new zerg invasion is still very real - but instead of expanding our fleets, you've squandered trillions on hunting down has-been rebels like Jim Raynor!"

Has-been. They're not a threat anymore because he got all that stuff sorted out in 4 years. To me, all this shows is that Mengsk is not being frugal with his money because he has so much of it. He can rebuild his military, refurbish korhal, and spend "trillions" on hunting down rebels that are overall insignificant. What's next? Designing a starcraft theme park? :P

I'm trying to keep my evidence to game material as we're discussing WoL itself. If we're discussing the universe as a whole,

Of course we're only discussing WoL, because if we were discussing novels/comics I'd point to the one where the Dominion is so powerful that they're forcing Umojans to sneak food to their people in crates....during 2500.

[RetlocLive]

I'm trying to keep my evidence to game material as we're discussing WoL itself. If we're discussing the universe as a whole, I'd comment that IMO, the Dominion build-up was done quite well. Stage 1 being the "hopelessness stage" (ala Mercenaries, end of BW), stage 2 being the "great leap forward" (utilizing/rebuilding its infrastructure), stage 3 being the seeds of discontent (protests/rebel groups popping up) and new war machines (ala the Viking), stage 4 being a re-emerging power (DTS), stage 5 being WoL. The timeline of events progresses quite naturally for the most part, bar the occasional blip (case in point being the blockade it enforced against the UP).

But speaking of WoL itself, I think we see stage 5 in itself well enough. A rebuilt Dominion (in part) that's held together by fear and force. The problem is that WoL doesn't do enough to reference stages 2 to 4, stuff that I think could have been covered in the loading screens or dialogue. We're told that the Dominion has been rebuilt, but now how, so to speak. Or at least, perhaps not enough as some people might have liked.

That's pretty much how I feel about it.

[Hawki]

I never followed ghost.

Hah, call yourself a StarCraft fan?

Did it actually show the Dominion as more powerful than Umoja & the KMC?

Only a mention in an interview about "larger (terran) factions" pretty much doing their own thing while the Dominion dealt with internal dissent (e.g. the KLF).

We couldn't very well play on every single Dominion planet as the UED. It was stated that the UED clamped down on the rest of the Dominion. A "signpost" of storytelling.

Actually wouldn't call it a signpost, but that's semantics. But if you're using Fenix's "UED grips the Dominion with an iron fist quote" as evidence, then it's countered by Kerrigan's quote that the UED has only begun to clamp down, that taking control of the zerg is the beginning. We can assume the UED grips Korhal with an iron fist, but I doubt it had the manpower to directly administer every Dominion world. If anything, their plan would be:

1) Take control of Korhal, saying "we rule you now."
2) Take control of the zerg, saying "if you don't toe the line, feel our critters' wrath."
3) Profit!

You mean this:

"Emperor, the threat of a new zerg invasion is still very real - but instead of expanding our fleets, you've squandered trillions on hunting down has-been rebels like Jim Raynor!"

Has-been. They're not a threat anymore because he got all that stuff sorted out in 4 years. To me, all this shows is that Mengsk is not being frugal with his money because he has so much of it. He can rebuild his military, refurbish korhal, and spend "trillions" on hunting down rebels that are overall insignificant. What's next? Designing a starcraft theme park? :P

The "has been" line is Kate's assertion, not Mengsk's. It's an assertion he doesn't agree with, nor is it one that the rebels themselves would agree with either.

Though a theme park might exist though. Certainly Zerger King does.

Of course we're only discussing WoL, because if we were discussing novels/comics I'd point to the one where the Dominion is so powerful that they're forcing Umojans to sneak food to their people in crates....during 2500.

Like I said earlier, it's a blip. It's a blip because it doesn't match how the Dominion is portrayed before the story (Mercenaries), nor does it match how it's portrayed afterwards, where it's either struggling to deal with internal dissent, or vying with the KMC or UP for influence. It's a blip I feel that stems more from the timeline retcon than anything, that the events got lumped into 2500 when it was decided to include Colin in Ghost Academy. It's a blip I feel could be fanwanked into conformity by saying the blockade was pre-existing (I, M allows for this technically) and Mengsk didn't utilize his remaining forces when he went after Kerrigan, instead raiding scrapyards and the like. I know it's a stretch, but I'd rather search for a solution.

(Since the blockade was apparently lifted by 2502 at the latest, it's kind of a moot point anyway. Maybe it was a show of faux strength to get the UP to agree to the tariffs the Dominion later set up?)