Creative Development Q&A 7

[DarthYam]

yeah I should have chosen the wording more carefully. And your right it wasn't ultimate free will. ButTychus may or may not have known and he still chose to try to kill her, and you'd be amazed at how badly people can let their desire for vengeance fuck themselves over. In the end, I prefer Kerrigan the conflicted anti hero. To me at least, it's more compelling than what Gradius would have given us. As such, I don't mind the artifact or Kerrigan being necessary.

[Gradius]

To me at least, it's more compelling than what Gradius would have given us.

And what is that exactly? A semi-realistic plot-line devoid of non-sequiturs, contrived deus ex machinas, and that doesn't destroy or ignore as much of the original lore as possible?

[DarthYam]

One where

a.) a new villain for the terrans pops out with no build up outside of the EU (i think that's the reason they kept mengsk. Not everyone reads the EU, so if some new guy is in mengsk's place quite a few players would be what the shiit).

b.) One where Kerrigan is a mustached twirling megalomaniac who is unceremoniously killed off like Kael'thas (I didn't mind Kael'thas's face heel turn, but unlike Arthas he doesn't get a cry for the devil moment when he dies. Arthas gets a moment where his father's ghost comforts him and shows that he still loves him in spite of what he's done even when he's telling his son that he's finally faced justice, wheras Kael'thas is blown up and remembered entirely for his traitorous actions rather than the good he did before his fall to madness.

c.) One that is Warhammer level dark, where nothing good ever happens, and ultimately induces http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...AudienceApathy where it is impossible to get invested (one of the reasons I liked Diablo 3 is that the heroes finally have a genuine victory in that Diablo is finally defeated forever and humans and angels can now reconcile even though both sides lost much). It would probably be a pyrriac victory at best, and while those worked beautifully in Starcraft 1, and to a lesser extent Brood War it gets kind of dull after a while.)

d.) One that would still be filled with non-sequiturs and contrived deus ex machina, as well as character stupidity, only of a different kind (this is why I keep bringing up brood war; so many people are saying that the sequal's story would be great if it were be in the same style as brood war even though brood war also had plot holes, deus ex machina's, and character stupidity).

e.) One with less character and evolution. From my perspective at least, there was genuine character conflict in Raynor and evolution in WOL, and HOTS looks like it's going to be about Kerrigan's evolution. Raynor starts out as the burned out cynic, but over the course of his story finally overcomes said cynicism as he confronts the ghosts of his past, until at the very end he's finally conquered his ghosts and (for the most part) made peace with the past. HOTS looks like it's going to show Kerrigan struggling to come to terms with her past (her interactions with the protoss scientist Lessara), her competing desires for revenge and atonement, her ultimate place in the universe, and her role as a messiah figure who will save the universe from the flames. That kind of conflict and character development (facing your past, moving on, dealing with uncertainty, and developing as a person) is interesting.

Reading Gradius's posts it seemed like he wanted one where Kerrigan was put down, where she was a moustache twirling overlord, and when any gains the good guys have is very small and the ending is always very bleak. Stagnant, boring, and just plain tired.

[Gradius]

a.) a new villain for the terrans pops out with no build up outside of the EU (i think that's the reason they kept mengsk. Not everyone reads the EU, so if some new guy is in mengsk's place quite a few players would be what the shiit).

When did I ever say a new villain had to take Mengsk's place from the EU? I never even said Mengsk couldn't return, just that if he does, make it a logical extension of the previous game, like returning him to Sons of Korhal status with a base on Augustgrad and maybe one or two more planets, not ruling the entire damn sector again as if BW didn't exist. There are plenty of possibilities & permutations, it just turns out you have to expend five minutes of effort to research what happened in the last game.

b.) One where Kerrigan is a mustached twirling megalomaniac who is unceremoniously killed off like Kael'thas (I didn't mind Kael'thas's face heel turn, but unlike Arthas he doesn't get a cry for the devil moment when he dies. Arthas gets a moment where his father's ghost comforts him and shows that he still loves him in spite of what he's done even when he's telling his son that he's finally faced justice, wheras Kael'thas is blown up and remembered entirely for his traitorous actions rather than the good he did before his fall to madness.

I said that it's logical for players to try to get their revenge, given that everybody in the entire sector hates her. This is still the case in WoL, Zeratul still hates her, but now he can't kill her because of this artificial prophecy plot device. It's a cop-out. And I never said she had to die. It would be awesome if Kerrigan continued being the character we love to hate, but hey, I'm no writer.

c.) One that is Warhammer level dark, where nothing good ever happens, and ultimately induces http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...AudienceApathy where it is impossible to get invested

"Dark" shows like Walking Dead & Game of Thrones do not have this. The point is not darkness, the point is realism. Coincidentally, the two usually coincide. But they don't have to. Stargate sg1 wasn't dark at all, yet was semi-realistic.

The reason why people might expect darkness from StarCraft is because:
1) The original lore is like that.
2) It's a sci-fi, and requires realism to offset suspension of disbelief more than a fantasy setting does.
3) The blizz employees keep telling us how "epic" the story is at blizzcons, and how it makes war3 look like a saturday morning cartoon.

d.) One that would still be filled with non-sequiturs and contrived deus ex machina, as well as character stupidity, only of a different kind (this is why I keep bringing up brood war; so many people are saying that the sequal's story would be great if it were be in the same style as brood war even though brood war also had plot holes, deus ex machina's, and character stupidity).

Ok, brood war was the worst game ever made. Maybe now you'll stop resorting to the strawman fallacy.

Raynor starts out as the burned out cynic, but over the course of his story finally overcomes said cynicism as he confronts the ghosts of his past

Made possible only by contrived artifacts instead of being something you'd realistically expect to happen in a sci-fi setting.

HOTS looks like it's going to show Kerrigan struggling to come to terms with her past (her interactions with the protoss scientist Lessara), her competing desires for revenge and atonement, her ultimate place in the universe

Boring. The zerg campaign should be about taking over planets, infesting everyone, and just being the bad guy. That's the point of the entire race. Not this nonsense about "finding their place" and "being free". Everyone can plainly see that they're vicious man-eating monsters, not goddamn unicorns. I really hope that leaked ending was revised. o.o

and her role as a messiah figure who will save the universe from the flames.

*yawn

Anyway, Kerrigan is no such thing; I quote from Kindregan's latest Q&A: "But she's not the chosen savior, or a messianic figure, or the "prophesied one""

I can see why you'd be confused about this issue....given that it's not what we see in the game at all, with every last protoss character saying "How could we have known that Kerrigan was the key to saving the universe? Damn our stupidity!" And then there's the dark voice repeatedly telling us that Kerrigan could have prevented all this. So, yeah. :P

Reading Gradius's posts it seemed like he wanted one where Kerrigan was put down, where she was a moustache twirling overlord, and when any gains the good guys have is very small and the ending is always very bleak.

Seems like you want a happy-ending with trumpets & rainbows where all the good guys win, and maybe one person dies, tops. I point you to the vast selection of rated-G movies at your local library. Or you could just replay Wings of Liberty.

[DarthYam]

Fiirst I brought up brood war not because you do it. But because I've seen so many people who dislike WOL hold up Brood War as some great piece of storytelling even when it has it's own flaws. I am annoyed at the constant fanboyism of that one. The artifacts in WOL are essentially a smaller more portable version of the pyramid in brood war, yet fanboys seem to give it a pass.


"When did I ever say a new villain had to take Mengsk's place from the EU? I never even said Mengsk couldn't return, just that if he does, make it a logical extension of the previous game, like returning him to Sons of Korhal status with a base on Augustgrad and maybe one or two more planets, not ruling the entire damn sector again as if BW didn't exist. There are plenty of possibilities & permutations, it just turns out you have to expend five minutes of effort to research what happened in the last game."

Hawki argued this better but first off he no longer holds Kel moria and Umoja (before the UED came they were part of the dominion. 2nd, he can do what napolean and squealer did; say that they're necissary so that the foreign threats don't kill them (also Kel moria was already shown to be worse in some ways than the dominion.)

"I said that it's logical for players to try to get their revenge, given that everybody in the entire sector hates her. This is still the case in WoL, Zeratul still hates her, but now he can't kill her because of this artificial prophecy plot device. I never said she had to die. It would be awesome if Kerrigan continued being the character we love to hate, but hey, I'm no writer."

I felt that now that Kerrigan has no reason for subtlty her evil overlord routine in WOL was pretty much inevitable. Part of the reason I wasn't bothered by her evil in WOL was that she subscribed to the "keep it short and keep it scary" form of taunting.

"Boring. The zerg campaign should be about taking over planets, infesting everyone, and just being the bad guy. That's the point of the entire race. Not this nonsense about "finding their place" and "being free". Everyone can plainly see that they're vicious man-eating monsters, not goddamn unicorns. I really hope that leaked ending was revised. o.o"

I see it as being grey; nature is capable of both cruelty and compassion, and the zerg are largely serving themselves. However, Kerrigan as an individual should be allowed to grow. Given that she's at a turning point her identity issues should come into play. Also, from what we she she gets up to plenty of violent shit. The ending implied simply that they are no longer the dark voice's bitch. Now they can make their own destiny, for good or for ill. I'm willing to wait and see.

"Anyway, Kerrigan is no such thing; I quote from Kindregan's latest Q&A: "But she's not the chosen savior, or a messianic figure, or the "prophesied one""

I can see why you'd be confused about this issue....given that it's not what we see in the game at all, with every last protoss character saying "How could we have known that Kerrigan was the key to saving the universe? Damn our stupidity!" And then there's the dark voice repeatedly telling us that Kerrigan could have prevented all this. So, yeah. :P"




"Seems like you want a happy-ending with trumpets & rainbows where all the good guys win, and maybe one person dies, tops. I point you to the vast selection of rated-G movies at your local library. Or you could just replay Wings of Liberty."

Ok now you're just strawmanning. I'm not opposed to bittersweet endings. Diablo 3 had a good one, that still set the stage for later battles. Wrath of the Lich King had one. I'm only opposed to dark endings when it's overdone. I brought up Diablo because most of the endings were bleak, and it was only in 3 that justice was finally done. Hell, I even think dark endings are good on occasion (In the Company of Men has a great one). However, I feel that in a series, there should be some breaks from depressing and bleak lest it stagnate. Starcraft shouldn't just have bleak endings. It can have endings, that while somewhat tragic, show that the heroes have still earned and accomplished tangible victory.

[Gradius]

first off he no longer holds Kel moria and Umoja (before the UED came they were part of the dominion.

That was made clear after his first defeat against the UED when his empire got dismantled and the UED took control of his worlds. But then he gets destroyed again. And again. And again. The status quo has to change a bit further. You have to grant at least that.

I felt that now that Kerrigan has no reason for subtlty her evil overlord routine in WOL was pretty much inevitable.

I know that you could use the "it's been 4 years" excuse again, but Kerrigan shouldn't go from sarcastic taunts to "I am pure evil/Lord Voldemort" taunts. It's basically a different character.

I feel that in a series, there should be some breaks from depressing and bleak lest it stagnate

I agree. It's also not realistic for shitty things to keep on happening without respite. But lucky breaks shouldn't come in the form of artifacts that solve all your problems, or player-characters that are invincible.

[DarthYam]

1.) In a way it did. The EU mentions that things were so bad he had to hire mercs to deal with something as trivial as pirates.

2.) I felt it was more a different style of taunting. I like the "keep it short keep it scary" line of taunting, and in that context her lines work well.

3.) That's actually another reason I brought up Brood War. The artifact that automatically kills zerg bares quite a few similarities to the one in WOL. the only difference is that the one in WOL is smaller, more portable, and does what the serum in the N64 port did. It's not entirely without precedence. I also chocked up the missions to gameplay and story segregation (which can occur in loads of games besides SC2) except for Safe Haven which made no sense

[The_Blade]

Gradius mentioned some good sources for the "Darkness" in the plot, but we may also analyze the plot of SC2:WoL to find reasons for a needed darkness.

WoL is supposed to be a catastrophe:

In the distant future, the colonies founded by Earth’s exiles are struggling to rebuild following a devastating war with two hostile alien species. The previously unknown and deadly species known only as the zerg had entered terran space, destroying everything in its path, while the technologically advanced protoss were hell-bent on exterminating the zerg at all costs, willing to incinerate entire planets if necessary.Years have passed, but the wounds of the Brood War are far from healed. The zerg and their cunning Queen of Blades have been quiet, but some fear this may be the calm before the storm. With both the protoss and the terrans licking their wounds and looking worriedly towards the darkness beyond the stars, an unknown threat emerges, unseen, that may once again plunge the galaxy into war.

The "Darkness" is created by the fact that the Koprulu Sector is at war again. In any "war plot" you will quickly see that characters die due to many reasons, but most of the times due to the War itself.

Examples:

[Softcore War, Unreal, Comedy] Disney's Mulan: Li Shang's father [implied death], hundreds of Chinese and Huns [implied deaths], Shan Yu [firework death, implied death].

[War, Semi-realistic, Tragedy] The Last Samurai: Taka's Husband [stab to the neck], Japanese general [beheaded], Katsumoto's Son [musket fire], Street assassins [death by katana], Katsumoto [Seppuku], hundreds of Japanese soldiers and Samurai [scene deaths]

[Hardcore War, Realistic, Nationalistic, Dark, Tragedy] The Flowers of War: People in Haystack [multiple bayonet stabs], People running [rifle fire], Priest [shell bomb, implied death], Student #1 [headshot], Student #2 [fall], Student #3, Column of Soldiers with bombs [death by armored car and rifle fire],2 Prostitutes [violent rape], wounded Soldier [bleeding out], lone wolf soldier [gun fire], Prostitutes and church assistant [sacrifice for the students, implied deaths], hundreds of Japanese and Chinese soldiers [scene and implied deaths]

You may quickly see how the darkness in a "war" scenario escalates with reality. This happens with most war movies. Realistic films will try to show the audience more violence and crude scenes. This happens in games too.

Was WoL dark? A little, but it was best associated with our first example, Mulan. "Wings of Liberty" had an unrealistic, war scenario and comic plot. Tosh's is the most violent death. Hanson dies while the player associates her as a Zerg alien, so there's no grief for her. Tychus' death is implied. Millions of terrans died implicitly, but were ignored.

I'm uncomfortable with this because it's not consistent with the SC universe, which is darker, or the science fiction genre, which demands reality.

The nature of the Zerg also demands darkness. Even if they are looking for "their place" they should be violent. Blizzard supports this idea. IIRC, they stated that the Zerg needed to act like a race with its own goals instead of working for others, but that this won't make them friendly. The Zerg will always be violent and evolving for its own survival.

If there is a dark war, there should also be famine, plague and death. If there is a real setting, each of the elements involved should be believable as well.

I no longer believe the artifacts are a Deus ex machina, but Blizzard still needs to work on the rest of the elements.

We should also remember that Kerrigan is a member of the Zerg. What seems bad for Terrans might be good for the Zerg. She must act like a Zerg leader, but also have human qualities that wont necessarily reflect a love for humans. I just don't feel that this was achieved with WoL.

If the following is true, then we have a true Queen of Blades again. She doesn't need to kill, but will do it for the Swarm when needed. This is the best example on what Kerrigan should be.

Hidden Content:

[Hawki]

You know, in the old days, I might have jumped in, fought the good fight, and proved that while the pen is mightier than the sword, the keyboard is mightier than the pen...or something. But while this isn't the old days, it's Saturday, so consider this reflections early in the morning. And yes, I'm using an odd system of response here, but trying to focus on the issues more than the individuals

a new villain for the terrans pops out with no build up outside of the EU (i think that's the reason they kept mengsk. Not everyone reads the EU, so if some new guy is in mengsk's place quite a few players would be what the shiit).

When did I ever say a new villain had to take Mengsk's place from the EU? I never even said Mengsk couldn't return, just that if he does, make it a logical extension of the previous game, like returning him to Sons of Korhal status with a base on Augustgrad and maybe one or two more planets, not ruling the entire damn sector again as if BW didn't exist. There are plenty of possibilities & permutations, it just turns out you have to expend five minutes of effort to research what happened in the last game.

Response

-Taking a villain from the EU wouldn't have been problematic, enough exposition/dialogue would have covered it.

-Don't think a villain apart from Mengsk would be good in that a) BW's epilogue establishes his intent to rebuild the Dominion and b) feels unnecessary to build up a new character as a primary antagonist when an existing one already...well, exists.

-Returning Mengsk to SoK status might feel like a reversion in that he was returned to it in BW itself. We've never actually got a chance to see really Mengsk rule, in either the EU or games until post-BW.

-The effects of the Brood War are mixed. On one hand, the Dominion's clearly weaker - doesn't control KMC or UP, rebels everywhere, etc. On the other hand, BW goes effectively unmentioned, at least in regards to how the Dominion goes from then to now (EU covers it, but you don't give a game points for what isn't in it).

One where Kerrigan is a mustached twirling megalomaniac who is unceremoniously killed off like Kael'thas (I didn't mind Kael'thas's face heel turn, but unlike Arthas he doesn't get a cry for the devil moment when he dies. Arthas gets a moment where his father's ghost comforts him and shows that he still loves him in spite of what he's done even when he's telling his son that he's finally faced justice, wheras Kael'thas is blown up and remembered entirely for his traitorous actions rather than the good he did before his fall to madness.

I said that it's logical for players to try to get their revenge, given that everybody in the entire sector hates her. This is still the case in WoL, Zeratul still hates her, but now he can't kill her because of this artificial prophecy plot device. It's a cop-out. And I never said she had to die. It would be awesome if Kerrigan continued being the character we love to hate, but hey, I'm no writer.

Response

-I think the Kael'thas/Arthas divide might also have to do with the fact that Arthas was the ultimate villain of his expansion and as such, gets a proper send-off. Kael'thas isn't. Worm gets the unceremonius send-off he deserves.

-Don't think all players want revenge on Kerrigan per se - zerg players for instance, who love being evil.

-I can understand Gradius's point about the prophecy, even if I don't agree with it, or at least, I think it works because it creates a tug o' war between instinct and knowledge of what's right (which Raynor is within right up to the moment he shoots Tychus). And while Kerrigan could always be a character we love to hate, it's stagnant character development.

-Which brings us to the artifact, which I can appreciate the view that it's an instrument of character change rather than character development (fine line between the two, bit OT). So entertaining both viewpoints, it's understandable on one hand that it's a cop-out, because it forces change in the immediate sense. On the other, it's potentially just a catalyst for character development via HotS. On a third hand, not doing anything to Kerrigan come WoL's end, and leaving her with the same objectives and persona as in WoL would mean that nothing was accomplished, Kerrigan will finish the job, and we've wasted an entire campaign showing how the terrans will never accomplish anything and will always be victims. Which HotS might do anyway, but at least there's a chance that there isn't now.

One that is Warhammer level dark, where nothing good ever happens, and ultimately induces http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...AudienceApathy where it is impossible to get invested (one of the reasons I liked Diablo 3 is that the heroes finally have a genuine victory in that Diablo is finally defeated forever and humans and angels can now reconcile even though both sides lost much). It would probably be a pyrriac victory at best, and while those worked beautifully in Starcraft 1, and to a lesser extent Brood War it gets kind of dull after a while.)

"Dark" shows like Walking Dead & Game of Thrones do not have this. The point is not darkness, the point is realism. Coincidentally, the two usually coincide. But they don't have to. Stargate sg1 wasn't dark at all, yet was semi-realistic.

The reason why people might expect darkness from StarCraft is because:
1) The original lore is like that.
2) It's a sci-fi, and requires realism to offset suspension of disbelief more than a fantasy setting does.
3) The blizz employees keep telling us how "epic" the story is at blizzcons, and how it makes war3 look like a saturday morning cartoon.

Response

-We got one phyric victory in SC1, one "screwed over" victory in BW (as in, universe is screwed, nothing wrong with the ending itself), one 'good' ending with WoL. If anything, I'm leaning more towards the phyric side come the end of LotV (and other things, but again, OT).

-Loved the ending of D3 as well. But again, I can't help but remind itself that it's going to be soured. IMO, D3 would have been a great place to end the series as a whole, but...well, gotta do what you gotta do (make more games).

-Actually developed some audience apathy in Walking Dead myself, but again, OT.

-For point 3, it's their job to buff it up. Any time a developer starts saying how "epic" something will be is the time to turn your ears off. Least it's what I do. It's definately paid off at times.

One that would still be filled with non-sequiturs and contrived deus ex machina, as well as character stupidity, only of a different kind (this is why I keep bringing up brood war; so many people are saying that the sequal's story would be great if it were be in the same style as brood war even though brood war also had plot holes, deus ex machina's, and character stupidity).

Ok, brood war was the worst game ever made. Maybe now you'll stop resorting to the strawman fallacy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEgh8TUlpQc

-Sorry Grad, but points are lost when I've seen the exact same counter-argument on another thread. But on the topic, saying "BW was bad too" isn't much of a defence either.

One with less character and evolution. From my perspective at least, there was genuine character conflict in Raynor and evolution in WOL, and HOTS looks like it's going to be about Kerrigan's evolution. Raynor starts out as the burned out cynic, but over the course of his story finally overcomes said cynicism as he confronts the ghosts of his past,

Made possible only by contrived artifacts instead of being something you'd realistically expect to happen in a sci-fi setting.

HOTS looks like it's going to show Kerrigan struggling to come to terms with her past (her interactions with the protoss scientist Lessara), her competing desires for revenge and atonement, her ultimate place in the universe,

Boring. The zerg campaign should be about taking over planets, infesting everyone, and just being the bad guy. That's the point of the entire race. Not this nonsense about "finding their place" and "being free". Everyone can plainly see that they're vicious man-eating monsters, not goddamn unicorns. I really hope that leaked ending was revised. o.o

and her role as a messiah figure who will save the universe from the flames. That kind of conflict and character development (facing your past, moving on, dealing with uncertainty, and developing as a person) is interesting.

*yawn

Anyway, Kerrigan is no such thing; I quote from Kindregan's latest Q&A: "But she's not the chosen savior, or a messianic figure, or the "prophesied one""

I can see why you'd be confused about this issue....given that it's not what we see in the game at all, with every last protoss character saying "How could we have known that Kerrigan was the key to saving the universe? Damn our stupidity!" And then there's the dark voice repeatedly telling us that Kerrigan could have prevented all this. So, yeah. :P

Response

Dammit Gradius, you just love making it hard for me to keep to a response system. I can see through your plan. You can't fool me!!!!

Oh, um, anyway:

-There's nothing wrong with the device being in a sci-fi setting. Not this one at least, considering what we've had before (this is me pointing to BW's lore, not plot, and the lore of the setting as a whole).

-On the other hand, Raynor confronting the ghosts of his past, Kerrigan confronting the ghosts of her past...could get repetitive, but it depends how HotS plays out.

-Disagree vehemantly on Gradius's zerg campaign idea. Why? Because we've already done it in SC1. BW's zerg campaign was about Kerrigan ruling the zerg, yet there's no real change in dynamic for the zerg themselves. Prior to the Brood War, they had one leader. After BW, they have one leader again. And always playing as "evil zerg" is stagnant. The zerg had the possibility for change from the moment we played them, and from the moment we saw there were actual characters to deal with. Playing as the zerg repeatedly and never having them change is getting close to static-universe storytelling (e.g. 40K and Xenopedia), which in turn can lead to apathy of interest.

-Though I will admit, Kerrigan being "prophecised" as a messiah figure can get on one's nerves. It's just too early to see how it's regarded in later games.

Reading Gradius's posts it seemed like he wanted one where Kerrigan was put down, where she was a moustache twirling overlord, and when any gains the good guys have is very small and the ending is always very bleak. Stagnant, boring, and just plain tired.

Seems like you want a happy-ending with trumpets & rainbows where all the good guys win, and maybe one person dies, tops. I point you to the vast selection of rated-G movies at your local library. Or you could just replay Wings of Liberty.

Response

...oh, I'm sorry, I was enjoying the popcorn too much. Anyway, um...er...

(Passes the popcorn around.)

Also going to start responding to posts individually.

I felt that now that Kerrigan has no reason for subtlty her evil overlord routine in WOL was pretty much inevitable. Part of the reason I wasn't bothered by her evil in WOL was that she subscribed to the "keep it short and keep it scary" form of taunting.

After having played D3 and H4, I'll admit that I can see why this can get annoying. I'll venture that I didn't find it annoying for Kerrigan because it suited her character development - somewhere between BW (still an 'active commander', we saw her up close, etc.) and the Overmind (like the Overmind, terrans and co. are beneath her, but being human, can still interact with them on some level). But it's a difficult thing to pull off. D3 did it well at times, not so much at others, H4 didn't do it well at all and having tried it myself (probably failed, but reviews are hard to come by these days), I know how hard it can be. That Kerrigan didn't make me whisper "shut up shut up shut up!" every time I saw her is definately a pro.

I see it as being grey; nature is capable of both cruelty and compassion, and the zerg are largely serving themselves. However, Kerrigan as an individual should be allowed to grow. Given that she's at a turning point her identity issues should come into play. Also, from what we she she gets up to plenty of violent shit. The ending implied simply that they are no longer the dark voice's bitch. Now they can make their own destiny, for good or for ill. I'm willing to wait and see.

It's a fair point. I definately get behind Kerrigan growing as a character. On the other, I can understand the misgivings of Gradius and co. There was no indication prior to WoL that the zerg weren't already in control of their own destiny. I don't mind it myself too much in that the zerg are a heirarchal hive mind, and the DV is along the lines of "there's always a bigger fish."

I know that you could use the "it's been 4 years" excuse again, but Kerrigan shouldn't go from sarcastic taunts to "I am pure evil/Lord Voldemort" taunts. It's basically a different character.

Refer to above post.

I agree. It's also not realistic for shitty things to keep on happening without respite. But lucky breaks shouldn't come in the form of artifacts that solve all your problems, or player-characters that are invincible.

Could easily slip into "strawman" territory here, but I'll resist the urge...for now. Is the artifact a quick fix? Arguably. Could we have got the same ending ala Stukov, cutting out the artifact altogether? Maybe, but then the plot would have been much different, and we'd be arguing whether the Dominion should have been able to hold off the zerg long enough to get into Kerrigan's hive or something. Does it irk me? Not really, because the artifacts grow naturally from the plot, and are only part of a much bigger one. Is Raynor invincible? Hardly, considering how few times he can take on foes directly. I can't call him invincible any more than I can call any other VG character through defying the odds (just look at the FPS and RPG genres).

Was WoL dark? A little, but it was best associated with our first example, Mulan. "Wings of Liberty" had an unrealistic, war scenario and comic plot. Tosh's is the most violent death. Hanson dies while the player associates her as a Zerg alien, so there's no grief for her. Tychus' death is implied. Millions of terrans died implicitly, but were ignored.

Think SC1 and BW are even more guilty of this, but meh. What got to me more was the "billions" figure for casualties. If such numbers are arbitrarily thrown around, these lose their impact.

[The_Blade]

Think SC1 and BW are even more guilty of this, but meh. What got to me more was the "billions" figure for casualties. If such numbers are arbitrarily thrown around, these lose their impact.

It is guilty, but not as much as WoL.

In SC and BW there was an emphasis on the death of Terrans, Zerg and Protoss.

Terrans:
We see arms flying in space, science vessel Zerg vs Marines, the nasty trench warfare, kerrigan's killing spree after the BW, and when someone died in game there was a strong focus on his death (stukov's blood spatter).

Protoss:
Dragon's blow up, and Fenix is killed multiple times.

Zerg:
Stacks of corpses being burned.