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Thread: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

  1. #11

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    I think SC needs to be even gentler in introducing new players to the ladder. It should go:
    -protected bases and slow game speed
    -slow game speed
    -normal game

    At the moment, the protected bases and the slow game speed is removed at the same time and it is too much for brand new players.

    They should make these changes, and perhaps even more, for new players to HotS.

  2. #12

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    I think the opening post is a novel suggestion and would appeal to some casuals, but not as widely as it would appear. This suggestion would be just as prone to ladder anxieities as the ladder itself is. The reason for this is the need for the matchmaker. Much of the anxiety in laddering is a result of the broadness the matchmaker must encompass to effectively match a player but also challenge a player approaching a league promotion. This broadness may result in a match up in the challenge situation that is very unfavorable for the casual.

    The challenge would also be difficult to set up as well. This is because of the difficulty in replicating the resource situation. The bank of each player would be easy, but the remaining resources unmined would be quite difficult to replicate without something to keep a constant record of unmined resources. It's by no means impossible, just very difficult.

    I personally do not feel the ladder anxieties my fellow casuals feel because I, and I recommend this to every newer player I come across, I approach the game with a necessary sense of humor. In order to 1v1 without anxiety you have to be able to place yourself in a mindset that focuses on the game at hand alone, and then laughs at any negative circumstances that may arise.

    As laughter is the best medicine, so too can it keep your mind in a state of learning readiness. Because of this, I do not typically need to watch my own replays to find out where I went wrong. I watch them to find out what more I could have done, what I could have done differently, how my opponent reacted to crtain things, and how my opponent tech switched when I thought I had his/her econ badly snuffed (i.e. did I miss a ninja expand).

    I have also recommended the existing challenges as training tools as well as playing vs. the AI and being able to consistently beat the Hard AI as a barometer of having the basic skill set to compete in 1v1 bronze, with the additional note of learning to scout your opponent consistently. Not all of those I have helped have become friends, but almost all of them have been thankful.
    I am a master tactician. It is my execution that keeps getting me killed.

  3. #13

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    It's a cool idea but, like people already mentioned, I doubt it would accomplish the mentioned purpose.

    The big problem is that 1v1 is too stressful for the vast majority of casual players. Hell, I've been playing 1v1 since SC1 and I still think it's stressful. This is especially true in lower leagues where it's all about dumb cheese/1 base all-ins most of the time. It's not fun at all. Sure, it's nice to watch a game that last 15+ minutes in the pro leagues but it will never come down to this in a casual 1v1 until you reach at least gold league and I believe that most casual players will quit before that. This is something you can't change. This is why team games are much more appropriate for casual gamers and this is why Blizzard should focus on making team games competitive. The fact that you are with other people greatly reduce the stress level and generally augment the fun factor. Think about it, LoL would never be where it is now if it was based on 1v1 hero combat. But honestly, if Starcraft wants to be at LoL level, they better act fast with drastic changes and an excellent marketing campaign to back it off. Things they should consider:

    -Make SC2 F2P (following ideas mentioned in a previous thread on the subject)

    -Creat a team based pro league tournament (not to be confused with something like GSTL but where players actually do 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4).

    -Give more incentives to play league games:think mass effect 3 where the only real way to get the "best" ending is to play multiplayer. Also, need more rewards to progress up on the ladder. Portraits are not enough. Something they could implement would be a currency that you can accumulate each time you win a game. That currency could be then used to purchase campaign related stuff, cosmetic rewards and possibly even a way to buy premium custom maps. Those are all successful tricks that are common in the industry now.

    -Allow players to coach other players in unranked games + allow replay sharing and the ability to watch replays with multiple players (why is this still not in there?)

  4. #14

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    Quote Originally Posted by flak4321 View Post
    . Much of the anxiety in laddering is a result of the broadness the matchmaker must encompass to effectively match a player but also challenge a player approaching a league promotion. This broadness may result in a match up in the challenge situation that is very unfavorable for the casual.
    Actually, if im not misstaken they increased the broadness of the matchmaking process a few months back - with reduction of anxiet as one explicit reason (though there may have been others too)
    previously you were always matched vs people pretty much exactly as good as you were. "evenly matched" (unless you were masters or high masters etc, idk) ... and no, being close to a promotion or not did not affect this.

    after the change, you can be matched vs significantly weaker or significantly stronger players, so sometimes you are expected to outplay and win easily and other times you are very likely to lose. Somehow this was considered better than having every game be a nail-biter. i think i agree with that, although i cant currently rationalize the argument.


    The challenge would also be difficult to set up as well. This is because of the difficulty in replicating the resource situation. The bank of each player would be easy, but the remaining resources unmined would be quite difficult to replicate without something to keep a constant record of unmined resources. It's by no means impossible, just very difficult.
    Im pretty sure blizzard has announced a "play from replay" feature for HotS. this is a feature that can help make up for disconnections in competitive games and was popularized though a community-made custom map that proved it was possible; you could save the gamestate ingame and later role back to that point at any time... If blizzard implements that to HotS, my suggestion wont be very hard to implement either. it just needs the separated infrastructure to set up the non-ladder matchmaking - something they are doing anyway though the announced "unranked ladder" option; ability to play a ladder game without the stakes of ladder points or affected MMR


    Good points made overall guys, i agree with much of it.
    Last edited by Todie; 10-22-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  5. #15

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    What about a 'No rush 5min' mode

  6. #16

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    Quote Originally Posted by Todie View Post
    Actually, if im not misstaken they increased the broadness of the matchmaking process a few months back - with reduction of anxiet as one explicit reason (though there may have been others too)
    previously you were always matched vs people pretty much exactly as good as you were. "evenly matched" (unless you were masters or high masters etc, idk) ... and no, being close to a promotion or not did not affect this.

    after the change, you can be matched vs significantly weaker or significantly stronger players, so sometimes you are expected to outplay and win easily and other times you are very likely to lose. Somehow this was considered better than having every game be a nail-biter. i think i agree with that, although i cant currently rationalize the argument.


    Im pretty sure blizzard has announced a "play from replay" feature for HotS. this is a feature that can help make up for disconnections in competitive games and was popularized though a community-made custom map that proved it was possible; you could save the gamestate ingame and later role back to that point at any time... If blizzard implements that to HotS, my suggestion wont be very hard to implement either. it just needs the separated infrastructure to set up the non-ladder matchmaking - something they are doing anyway though the announced "unranked ladder" option; ability to play a ladder game without the stakes of ladder points or affected MMR


    Good points made overall guys, i agree with much of it.
    I remember Blizz giving that reason for the most recent matchmaker change as well. Overall I'm okay with it, but my win % did dip from 55 to 48, so I'm not entirely happy with it either. Perhaps something in between where it was before and where it is now may be best, but I wouldn't argue if they elected not to change it again.

    I agree a play from replay would be neat, regardless of implementation intricacies. I also will add a point that for some players it may prove to be motivation to ladder more if they like this option enough to want have some of these situations of their own creation.
    I am a master tactician. It is my execution that keeps getting me killed.

  7. #17

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What about a 'No rush 5min' mode
    The problem is, how exactly would you implement that?

    If you set all units to invincible for 5 minutes, it would not encourage long games. Fast mass Baneling and Widow Mine play, to simply enter the enemy base untouched and then wreak chaos when the invincibility wears off, would be popular. All-ins would be more common.

    If you created an uncrossable line in the middle of the map, either a force field or though destructible debris, you'd deny scouting and cause pure build-order wins. So then you'd have to decide what units were allowed to cross the line to scout - maybe workers, Overlords, and CC Scan. But then Protoss is at a disadvantage because the only unit they'd have to scout is the higher tech, costly Mothership Core. Which has an attack of its own, effectively removing the NR5Min. With workers, you'd encounter more surprise worker rushes because its supposed to be NR5Min. It would also not help the Reaper's viability to be denied crossing the line.

    No rush cannot work in ladder play because there's no way to ensure player cooperation while limiting cheese.

  8. #18

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    Sentries start with hallucination now, you can use a phoenix to scout easily.

    What could be possible is to make all units weaker in the first 5 minutes, and after the mark their DPS goes to normal. Or you could simply deter enemy rushes by giving an obvious Defender's Advantage. It would help weak players survive rushes with very basic defense, but something that would also promote making units rather than simply making tons of turrets.

    Maybe take a page out of Warcraft 3 and give workers a 'Militia mode' that gives them a temporary health and speed boost; ability granted from every main base. The mechanic would not work for expos or for a Terran that flies their main in hopes to 'worker rush'; and the ability goes away after the 5min mark.


    But I'm just coming up with ideas for the sake of it. I'm not a fan of the idea of 'no rush', I just see the potential in it being an option as a casual-friendly game mode.

  9. #19

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sentries start with hallucination now, you can use a phoenix to scout easily.

    What could be possible is to make all units weaker in the first 5 minutes, and after the mark their DPS goes to normal. Or you could simply deter enemy rushes by giving an obvious Defender's Advantage. It would help weak players survive rushes with very basic defense, but something that would also promote making units rather than simply making tons of turrets.

    Maybe take a page out of Warcraft 3 and give workers a 'Militia mode' that gives them a temporary health and speed boost; ability granted from every main base. The mechanic would not work for expos or for a Terran that flies their main in hopes to 'worker rush'; and the ability goes away after the 5min mark.


    But I'm just coming up with ideas for the sake of it. I'm not a fan of the idea of 'no rush', I just see the potential in it being an option as a casual-friendly game mode.

    That‘s actually a smart idea. You could make casual players start with static defense or something along those lines.

  10. #20

    Default Re: On the hot subject of #saveHotS: About integrating the compeitive & the casual !

    No rush 5 min mode? Simple. Just have an giant wall that divides the map into 2, or have a giant shield that entombs the entire starting area of each player, preventing them from getting out and anyone from getting in for a certain period of time. This was present in C&C3 for Xbox 360.

    Kudos to Arkceangel for the Terran avatar and sig!

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