Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[Santrega]

If you are making more money than you can spend, the answer is obvious: build more production infrastructure. Clearly you need more Gateways/etc or Barracks/Factories/StarPorts. The correct answer is almost never to stop getting more money.



Then you've already won and a 5-year-old can finish the game for you.



We're not talking about what "most casual players" would do. "Most casual players" would pulse PC occasionally instead of regularly and will often forget to build workers.

That people can make the wrong decisions doesn't make those decisions any less wrong.

So who are you arguing for? You? You telling me that you will always use PC? This is why we need to wait for beta, I'd love for you to show me you always using PC... I sure as hell haven't seen anyone else always use PC, and even david Kim didnt always use PC.

I think there is a major disconnect from reality here. Obviously you guys have some sort of "im going to play like a pro gamer" syndrome and you think you are going to be so good at the game you will always use PC as soon as its available. Thats a joke...

I know why DS is upset about this, I know where he is coming from... He simply hates the macro mechanics anyway, because you have to do them repetitively to use them. If they were autocasted, the guy wouldnt even complain a bit, however, the game would then be too fricken boring, not repetitive, just plain boring.

The ability to boost your production through faster resource harvesting or faster larva production is better for the game over all. It will allow faster armies, more fighting, and less down time after attacks. However, you can't just allow that to happen all the time, or else the need to play the game the way it should be played is no longer required. After a while you wont need to expand, because you'll have enough resources to keep a fight going, and the game will go to whoever won the massive war and got in to the opponents base. It would be like a fastest/BGH game all the time. So, in order to combat that, and give a boost to the action in the game, you give timed production boost mechanics, such as mule, PC, and larva injection.

You guys are fighting ridiculously hard because you don't believe you can use PC continuously through the game, whether because you are lazy, you have memory issues, or you simply don't have the speed in your hands. You aren't fighting the ability based on its effectiveness, but because its an APM sink. You aren't fighting repetition, you are fighting repetition which is hard to do. As the casual players I know you guys are, you wont use PC all the time, because you won't need to.

You guys are fighting as hard for no PC as TL.net was fighting for no MBS.

Casual gamers don't count because you can't play starcraft multiplayer mode casually and win. So PC doesn't affect casual players that much. If you want to win at StarCraft you have to either play a bit each day or play a lot at irregular intervals, all of this without falling in the hardcore category. So lets call the category between casual and hardcore "standard". Those are the players (with the hardcore category) that will play multiplayer the most and trust me no standard player would end with 1k for more than 15-25 sec except in late game or if they are playing against a casual player. At this level of play PC would really be a deciding factor.

Rofl, Sandwich, if you are fighting for the competitive/pro crowd, believe me, they dont have a problem with repetition. They did play starcraft after all, where you had to go back to your base constantly to build workers and units. This has to be a casual issue, which its not an issue because casual players can't spend more resources than they harvest.

[Norfindel]

Er, neither is building workers... what happens when you don't build workers and your opponent does? He gets ahead of you in economy...

Except that by training workers, you can expend minerals faster than it's advisable. A single worker needs like 50 seconds just to mine his own cost, so for 50 seconds you're going to have less minerals than you would if you didn't built him.

That's why the build orders gets analyzed a lot. If you queue that extra worker, you won't have the 100 minerals at the right time to build that first Pylon, or the extra supply you need before you run out of it.


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[ArcherofAiur]

I think Santrega has a very (choosing words carefully) realistic point of view. People here like to look at stuff and slice it up into good parts and bad while ignoring the big picture. I wouldnt be surprised if Santregas perspective was shared by the developers.

[Blazur]

You guys are fighting ridiculously hard because you don't believe you can use PC continuously through the game, whether because you are lazy, you have memory issues, or you simply don't have the speed in your hands.

Trust me when I say I'm not arguing PC because of any concerns of shortcomings. I'm quite capable of mastering the simple tasks needed to succeed in most games, provided there's a level of interest and willingness to practice. My argument is a simple distaste for the notion that I'll begrudgingly feel forced to do something on a routine basis to maintain a competitive edge.

Let's be honest, even the best Protoss players will forget the occasional PC or offset the casting in an optimized timing. However, given two players of equal skill, the one who's most in tune with casting PC has a higher guarantee of success. Therefore it behoove's them to stay regular on the casting...no matter how monotonous the task is.

Arrogance aside, I'm all for adding complexity and depth to this game. I've been arguing for more since day one. More micro potential, more options available to players, more strategic depth. But never something as contrived as PC which generally doesn't sound fun.

It's bad enough we have to do considerable chores in our daily routines, but I'll be damned if I welcome the same in my most anticipated game.

[sandwich_bird]

Rofl, Sandwich, if you are fighting for the competitive/pro crowd, believe me, they dont have a problem with repetition. They did play starcraft after all, where you had to go back to your base constantly to build workers and units. This has to be a casual issue, which its not an issue because casual players can't spend more resources than they harvest.

Yeah repetitions that include a strategic background like repeting the same b/o to master it or similar stuff but PC doesn't involve any strategy.

For all you pro PC, this is really a lost fight. None of you would agree yourself that the mechanic is fun or involve any depth so why defend it so much?

[ArcherofAiur]

pro PC

Again who is supposed to be pro PC?

[Santrega]

Yeah repetitions that include a strategic background like repeting the same b/o to master it or similar stuff but PC doesn't involve any strategy.

If it didnt provide any strategy, there wouldn't be any reason to use it. The strategy is obviously to boost resource harvesting based on a need, whether its foresight of a future need, or the sudden realization of a current need. Maybe you just lost your army and you think they are coming to get you, so you want to double pump units or quickly dish out as many as you can... then you'd want to boost your resources and hope you can gain enough ground back to defend yourself. That is strategy.

Now, if you mean it doesn't give you a choice on what to use the energy on, then I agree. I simply disagree that you are forced to use it constantly.

For all you pro PC, this is really a lost fight. None of you would agree yourself that the mechanic is fun or involve any depth so why defend it so much?

I think its more so a lost fight because you guys simply choose not to acknowledge valid points on the other side. Archer and I have both agreed that PC can be better, we simply don't agree with the reasoning you guys use that PC sucks.

I dont believe PC has to be removed, but instead altered, not an added disadvantage, but an added alternative.

I still believe that you can add something to increase warp in time of buildings, and units... Here is an idea...

Ability: Power Surge
Used on : Pylons (can cast on one pylon at a time per obelisk).
What ability does: Speeds up warp in time of buildings and units within the pylon's energy radius. The boost to building warp in time would be something like 15-20%, and the boost to unit warp in time would be 10-15%. The boost would provide enough of a production lift to create a strategic decision whether to use this, or use PC.

[DemolitionSquid]

I think its more so a lost fight because you guys simply choose not to acknowledge valid points on the other side.

That's because there are none.

I'm going to quote a part of my editorial that's extremely relevant.

What we arrive with is a mechanic that is strategically void. Proton Charge provides no choice; if you do not use it, it serves no purpose, and is wasted. A Protoss Zealot standing in your base can still be used to defend if you are attacked. A High Templar not casting Psionic Storm is saving that energy for when it is needed and useful because Psionic Storm has variable uses and times to use it. Neither the Zealot or Psionic Storm is reaching their full potential by being idle, but they still retain potential itself. An Obelisk not casting Proton Charge is wasting the ability, because it only serves one purpose, at only one time. APM sinks are mindless. There is no choice to them other than either you do the required task every X seconds, or you don’t. If you don’t, your chances of losing increase the longer you do not use them. They promote tedious repetition. You cannot use them to provide benefit because everyone is using them, but if you don’t use them you will suffer. The reason StarCraft survives even with spell-based mass effect is because spells have a chance to fail and have counters. Proton charge has neither drawback in any great quantity. What we end up with is a mechanic that offers nothing substantial to the game, but consumes time that could be better used on actual strategic action, and promoting real skill.

[ArcherofAiur]

This part made me laugh the hardest.

StarCraft survives even with spell-based mass effect is because spells have a chance to fail and have counters. Proton charge has neither drawback in any great quantity.

We will ignore for now the part were you say Starcraft barely survives with the incredible burden of (scary voice) mass effect spells. But did you really mean to suggest that people wont be Obelisk sniping? Recent feedback says that Muta harass is really good for taking out obelisks.

[sandwich_bird]

If it didnt provide any strategy, there wouldn't be any reason to use it. The strategy is obviously to boost resource harvesting based on a need, whether its foresight of a future need, or the sudden realization of a current need. Maybe you just lost your army and you think they are coming to get you, so you want to double pump units or quickly dish out as many as you can... then you'd want to boost your resources and hope you can gain enough ground back to defend yourself. That is strategy.

Now, if you mean it doesn't give you a choice on what to use the energy on, then I agree. I simply disagree that you are forced to use it constantly.

It doesn't give a choice and you are forced to use it constantly unless you already have a big advantage over your enemy. It's quite easy to prove also. I could just do a ums putting 2 AI against each other (so that they have exactly the same level of skill instead of using humans) and give more minerals to one AI on a definite regular interval and give the same amount of mineral boost to the other AI on an irregular interval. Now if I run this test 20 times on a symmetric map, would that settle the argument once and for all? The AI receiving the regular boost would no doubt win most of the time.

Tbh I shouldn't have to do this because the results are so obvious. If you put skill aside, the chance of winning is only determined by an unknown factor of luck (made by possible imperfection in the AI and the impossibility of having a perfectly symmetric map). If you give more minerals to one AI he obviously have more chance on his side since this is major factor compared to the luck factor previously mentioned.