Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[Skyze]

hes right though, How many of you arguing about this are even on or ever been on at least a team that played in decent leagues? how many of you have been B or higher on iccup? etc.

This argument is kinda a moot point, because anyone who is decent isnt concerned about pressing a button every 45 seconds. thats nothing.

[Pandonetho]

The point is that this game should not be a game aimed at professionals watered down for casuals. It should be a game made for casuals with competitive aspects that professionals and casuals both will like.

Of course that goes without saying the two categories are quite different so naturally they'd have differing opinions.

However, Warp-in is somewhat of a miracle, it seems like everyone so far likes it and it makes for a good macro mechanic. This is what Nicol or the others on his side are striving for.

Warp-in is subtle in a way. The idea of it is exciting, the casual mind thinks "friggen awesome, I can warp my dudes anywhere I want within pylon power!" and the professional goes, sweet, a fun mechanic that is also viable as a good macro mechanic. However, the "professionals" are also perfectly fine with repetitive actions because repetitive action requires skill to pull off (most other people would just forget, wouldn't have the mind set to continually do it, or would just get bored of it).

[n00bonicPlague]

I must say that I am very excited about Warp-In — next to that, the Reactor and Tech Lab. I am definitely in favor of some sort of larvae mechanic, but Spawn Larva is fairly bothersome in its current form. I had a much greater preference for the Mutant Larvae ability that allowed for quick units. I'm not sure if anyone has read my Queen idea, but the concept of a "Mobile Hatchery" has some serious potential.

[Nicol Bolas]

Allot of people would rather an RTS was more about direct combat. And to fit that mindset most RTS makers have focused more on the shooting and explosions stuff. So if youd rather that your RTS was more about direct confrontation I would look for a more micro RTS.

There's that "failure of imagination" I was talking about. Why does direct confrontation always have to deal with "shooting and explosions stuff," with units firing at other units? Is that some immutable law etched into the nature of the universe at its creation? Or is it just that you can't imagine what such a game would be like because nobody's made such a game yet?

Adding a dimension of confrontation to macro would make it much more interesting, and allow mechanics that would otherwise be busywork to gain decision making.

It's clear to me now that this is simply a second interface argument. The same old story, just with different people.

...

They will not use the macro mechanics, and they'll face other people who don't use the macro mechanics from first-class delivery into an even match by the AMM.

It's funny. Nowhere in that entire spiel was there one word against decision-making mechanics. You simply state that "things as they are now are as perfect as they will ever be," and you consider this an argument against everything else.

Saying that something is good does not make it good. You have to show how it is good, and if other people show how it isn't good, then you have to show that their logic or evidence is wrong.

The macro mechanics will not be replaced, and PC may get altered, but it also will not be replaced. You can cry and complain all you like, but until beta, and a mass uprising, there is no way in hell blizzard is going to throw out that mechanic, even if dustin believes it needs something more. If they never find that something, it will be in the game as is.

Really? Why are the macro mechanics as they currently stand so perfect that they're guaranteed to stay? The gas mechanic, in various forms, was in for just as long if not longer. What makes these mechanics so special?

How many of you arguing about this are even on or ever been on at least a team that played in decent leagues? how many of you have been B or higher on iccup?

Ahh, the elitist non-argument that "we haven't played SC enough, so we don't get a say." Sorry, but that kind of crap doesn't constitute an argument. That may fly over at GosuGamers or TL.Net, but not here.

The point is that this game should not be a game aimed at professionals watered down for casuals. It should be a game made for casuals with competitive aspects that professionals and casuals both will like.

That, I disagree with. What I want is two things:

1: The player improvement curve to be a lot less sharp than SC1. There is a huge gap between minimally competent and noobie. SC2 needs to smooth that out.

2: Not to base the skill curve on busywork.

The idea of it is exciting, the casual mind thinks "friggen awesome, I can warp my dudes anywhere I want within pylon power!"

Not really. Oh, that's what they think, right up until they find out that WarpGates have no build queues. Then they'll have a real tradeoff to make.

And I think Warp-In is an almost perfect mechanic in this regard. If your mechanical skills aren't up to scratch, then you really can't convert all your Gateways willy nilly to WarpGates. Now, you can convert a few and rely on build queues for the rest.

As your mechanical skills improve, you can convert more and more of your Gateways over.

[Draco]

hes right though, How many of you arguing about this are even on or ever been on at least a team that played in decent leagues? how many of you have been B or higher on iccup? etc.

This argument is kinda a moot point, because anyone who is decent isnt concerned about pressing a button every 45 seconds. thats nothing.

That's a really lame argument. I've played enough Starcraft to at least know what's going on at the professional level, but just because I don't practice 6 hours everyday for 7 years to unconsciously work every build order, doesn't mean I'm incapable of determining whether a new mechanic is mindless or not.

It's called lack of a better argument.

[Norfindel]

This argument is kinda a moot point, because anyone who is decent isnt concerned about pressing a button every 45 seconds. thats nothing.

You just recognized that the macro mechanics aren't going to solve anything, you know .

[Skyze]

Im just saying, at a "casual" level of play, you guys could still win ANY game vs eachother without using the macro mechanics at all, it IS an option, it is not forced on you to use. Its the same as building 8 scvs vs building 12 scvs, Some people choose to build less, but doesnt mean they instantly lose.

At lower levels of play, 50 minerals every minute isnt going to make a huge difference.

I still stand by the notion that anyone complaining that the obelisk is imbalanced and "forced" on you, I GUARANTEE that Bisu would beat you PvP without using it at all, and you use it as much as you want. Or any pro, even non-korean top players could still win games without using the obelisk vs "casual" people who use it. Therefor it isnt gamebreaking, it doesnt affect the outcome of the game directly, it is not an issue. If you complain about this for casual players, then well, I dont know what to say.

And besides, bitching about stupid little concerns you have about the game for casual players (which doesnt even really effect the outcome of the game, as I said) is so pointless, esp when the game hasnt even reached beta yet to test these things. Whats the point of this 24 page argument, what are you guys trying to accomplish exactly?

[Skyze]

That's a really lame argument. I've played enough Starcraft to at least know what's going on at the professional level, but just because I don't practice 6 hours everyday for 7 years to unconsciously work every build order, doesn't mean I'm incapable of determining whether a new mechanic is mindless or not.

It's called lack of a better argument.

If you know whats going on in the pro scene, and if you assume to think you need 6 hours everyday for 7 years to develope "unconscious build orders", then whats the issue with the Obelisk being mindless?? Knowing every build order is NOT mindless?? The Obelisk has just as much a choice to use as using dragoons vs terran; You can still win without it, but of course its going to help you.

I still dont understand why people are complaining about this.. If you are saying its "mindless".. EVERYTHING in SC is mindless clicking, The "mental" side of SC isnt really in casual gaming because all you need to win in casual games is a decent build order (and no, you dont need to copy a korean; Ive been at the top of every beta ive played in on strats I came up with within 10 games, so I dunno what happened, no studying for 6 hours a day 7 years??)

I really dont think there is anything we can complain about being imbalanced or useless until beta is here and we all have more time testing the game. Right now, you guys are just feeding Demosquid's trolling efforts to remove everything about SC he doesnt like, not because theres a reasonable flaw in the mechanic, but just because Demosquid wants SC to be exactly the same (since 2009 started, it seems every week he has a stupid sig saying "remove this unit!"with no reasoning behind it, and people feed into it, I have no idea why)

[Draco]

If you know whats going on in the pro scene, and if you assume to think you need 6 hours everyday for 7 years to develope "unconscious build orders", then whats the issue with the Obelisk being mindless?? Knowing every build order is NOT mindless?? The Obelisk has just as much a choice to use as using dragoons vs terran; You can still win without it, but of course its going to help you.

I still dont understand why people are complaining about this.. If you are saying its "mindless".. EVERYTHING in SC is mindless clicking, The "mental" side of SC isnt really in casual gaming because all you need to win in casual games is a decent build order (and no, you dont need to copy a korean; Ive been at the top of every beta ive played in on strats I came up with within 10 games, so I dunno what happened, no studying for 6 hours a day 7 years??)

I really dont think there is anything we can complain about being imbalanced or useless until beta is here and we all have more time testing the game. Right now, you guys are just feeding Demosquid's trolling efforts to remove everything about SC he doesnt like, not because theres a reasonable flaw in the mechanic, but just because Demosquid wants SC to be exactly the same (since 2009 started, it seems every week he has a stupid sig saying "remove this unit!"with no reasoning behind it, and people feed into it, I have no idea why)

It's to demonstrate a point that while it may require years of dedication to actually execute those BOs flawlessly, understanding them does not.

No one's talking about balance. The pitfalls of SC1 shouldn't justify the pitfalls of SC2. There's plenty of thoughtful actions in both SC1 and SC2. We're not looking to make the game easier. Right now, an action is required of you every X seconds from these macro abilities, instead of it just being a push of the button, why not make it a calculated decision that adds strategic depth beyond what SC1 had to offer? That's our reason for the complaint.

Of course any Joe Smoe can memorize what the innovators are doing, but to truly integrate the strategies into your playstyle and adapt in-game is what separates the casuals apart from the pros. That takes time and dedication. This suggestion that we turn a mindless action into a strategic one will only benefit those innovators and provide more of a distinction between the copycats and trail blazers. There is no detriment. It's a straight-up benefit for the game.

SC2 isn't SC1. SC2 should offer stuff beyond what SC1 had to offer. This is an opportunity to do so. Arguing that it's fine and already balanced like SC1 is missing the picture. That's a complacent attitude.