Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[Xyvik]

Well, Dawn of War 2 tried that but it's a different case anyway (and not a valid example to point out IMO) since it's so opposite of Starcraft.

DoW2 was so utterly the opposite of anything remotely resembling "Strategy" so yeah, that was a terrible example

[ArcherofAiur]

Depends on what your "solution" is. Most RTS makers have tried to increase the amount of micro to compensate. The general idea being if you add enough fun combat stuff then you wont have to have players deal with thier economy.

[Norfindel]

I think its much easier for "some people" too look at Dustin, and Gifted and Santrega and TL and I and everyone else who dissagrees with them as stupid rather than actually consider what the other person is saying.

I didn't call people stupid, but the explanation of why PC has no strategy, or decision making was posted again and again, and seriously, it's as obvious as something can be. No spell has ever been so stupid as to only had *one* place to be casted on, always inside your own bases, and the caster being able to keep the effect constantly active.

I don't buy the concept of something that dumb to introduce strategy. And judging by the skill requirements, i see no way the macro mechanics can make it past beta in their current forms, unless Blizzard is delusional, or something.

[Santrega]

I didn't call people stupid, but the explanation of why PC has no strategy, or decision making was posted again and again, and seriously, it's as obvious as something can be. No spell has ever been so stupid as to only had *one* place to be casted on, always inside your own bases, and the caster being able to keep the effect constantly active.

I don't buy the concept of something that dumb to introduce strategy. And judging by the skill requirements, i see no way the macro mechanics can make it past beta in their current forms, unless Blizzard is delusional, or something.

Two questions.

1) Storm was only used on enemy units.. Doesn't that constitute only one place to be casted on?

Or, are you trying to say the map location, which would differ in the same exact way PC would. PC would be dependent on where the resources are, and psi-storm is dependent on where the enemy units are.

2) Why is casting in one spot something that bothers you so much? Is casting an ability in multiple spots something that would make PC more fun? If for example you could also cast PC on enemy workers, decreasing their resource intake, would that make this ability more fun?

[Pandonetho]

1) Storm was only used on enemy units.. Doesn't that constitute only one place to be casted on?

I wouldn't think so. Storms needs to be placed so that you will minimize the damage done to your own army. But in fact, I think my opinion on storm is that it really isn't that different from PC. The SC1 high templar had no competing abilities and it was used whenever a bunch of opponents charged at you. It was indeed quite a mindless ability. Well, that's my opinion of it anyway.

The main reason I think people like storm is because it kills things, which is a lot more visually outstanding in terms of directing the flow of the game as opposed to PC.

But then again, it's not something that personally for me, would detract from the fun of the game (like PC would) because I like killing things.

Sure, if you don't use it in a battle when you can you're just doing yourself a disservice but it's far from busywork.

[MattII]

Didn't storm also reveal the HT when it was cast?

[Nicol Bolas]

The problem with this question, is that the current mechanics do involve decision making, just apparently not the kind of decision making you believe are decisions. If you had a clear definition of what a "decision" is to be made, then I feel we could make some progress in pointing the "decisions" out to you.

No, there isn't. We talked about this already. The mechanic itself has no decision making.

The closest thing to a choice you have is a question of ability: can you keep it up while doing other things. And again, you can get that with abilities that do have decision making.

Secondly, I am all for mechanics that are fun, require skill, and increase resource harvesting. I guess the problem here is... Sc2 doesn't have 20 years for you to actually think a mechanic like that up for each race.

So basically, you're arguing against what's there solely for expediency's sake. You're saying that Blizzard shouldn't even try because you think it'll take too long to come up with such mechanics. You have a very dim view of Blizzard's design team.

And I wouldn't make it a single mechanic per race. Because decision-making mechanics generally work against repetition, the correct solution is to have lots of these mechanics, which will be used as needed. That need may come up in the middle of battle, and if it is not used then, it will provide a diminished return later.

It wouldn't be limited to increasing resource harvesting either, as that is the least interesting part of macro.

3: Starcraft isnt the game for Nicol.

How can you know? You won't define what StarCraft is.

Good decision requires a strategic choice that is based on your limited intelligence of the situation, and each option should carry risks along with gains.

Don't forget that there must be at least 2 viable options when making the decision.

Pardon the presumptive attitude, but I assume Starcraft garners its lasting power from its strategic sophistication.

The primary factor that causes player skill stratification nowadays in SC is ability, not strategy. Can you execute X rather than choosing between X and Y. The strategic aspect has, more or less, distilled down into several known builds (generally called "standard play") and a number of riskier builds and timings.

This is pretty much guaranteed to happen to some degree with any long-running game (even Go has some fairly standard openings and reactions). The question is how many different kinds of builds do you get that are viable, as well as the variety of riskier builds.

1) Storm was only used on enemy units.. Doesn't that constitute only one place to be casted on?

Enemy units do not constitute a place. Because they move. Your mineral patches and Nexii aren't going anywhere.

And that doesn't even deal with the fact that it's much more effective against certain units than others, so the outcome isn't the same each time. Plus, it's on a unit that has to be out on the field, and thus is subject to sniping and must be protected.

The differences are legion.

Why is casting in one spot something that bothers you so much?

Because I'm a human being, not a computer. Route busywork is for computers, not people.

[Pandonetho]

Because I'm a human being, not a computer. Route busywork is for computers, not people.

Damn man, you're the guy who supports having robots do everything and one day robots will rule the world like in the Matrix because of advocates like you. (Joke post) I'm actually totally serious.

[Zalamander]

Where did you read that these e-mails have gone out?

I got one my self.

[Norfindel]

Two questions.

1) Storm was only used on enemy units.. Doesn't that constitute only one place to be casted on?

No, enemy units move around the map. Psi Storm even affects your own units, so using it while you have your own Zealots there is not trivial, and must be casted on a precise instant to maximize damage.

Enemy can dodge, and/or kill the HT. In fact, trying to maximize damage, trying to dodge, keep the HT alive, and kill them are very important skills. Psi Storm is an ability where the skill of both players are directly measured against each other.

Also, Psi Storm is used anywhere on the map, and your caster is vulnerable.

It's orders of magnitude more interesting.

Or, are you trying to say the map location, which would differ in the same exact way PC would. PC would be dependent on where the resources are, and psi-storm is dependent on where the enemy units are.

Resource position is known before the game starts, is constantly revealed, and don't change unless you edit the map.

2) Why is casting in one spot something that bothers you so much? Is casting an ability in multiple spots something that would make PC more fun? If for example you could also cast PC on enemy workers, decreasing their resource intake, would that make this ability more fun?

Because that's completely predictable, and boring, and people don't like repetitive tasks. What's more fun, playing Poker 100 times, or counting how many cards do you have 100 times?

If it could also be casted over enemy workers, that would at least add something (assuming you don't need a proxy Obelisk), but as long as the main mechanic remains, it's going to be a lot safer to just cast on your own base. Anyways, it's much better to just attack the enemy workers than slowing them down for a while.


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