Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[Zalamander]

October and still no beta...

Dont worry its closing in pretty fast now.
One week ago Blizzard sent out press access mails requesting bnet accounts in europe as well.

Dont have too high hopes tho might still be a month away.

[Norfindel]

It's a very simple point.

Decision-making good.
Mindless bad.

Miraculously, the other attributes of the abilities like forced base return and multitasking can work with either of these options.

What seems to be the counterargument is that PC and Mule already have decision-making because of their energy tension between the alternatives, when in very circumstantial and risky situations, are no longer entirely negligible. The risk of losing economic advantage outweighs the minimal benefits even in these propped-up situations. Beta will ultimately demonstrate the futility of these options, but rather than playing the clairvoyant sage, why not add the security of good gameplay by making each option intrinsically fun and decisiony?

Most of you guys dance around and deviate from the core issue. Will this addition be fun? Will this addition add strategy and value player input? There are no more questions to be asked.

I agree. But it seems that for some people the concept is difficult to grasp.

I just hope Nicol isn't right about Blizzard only putting MBS and Rally-mine in the game to help sales, because that pretty much will warrant that the macro aspect will suck with decisionless mechanics thrown in to replace the old decisionless mechanics.

[ArcherofAiur]

I think its much easier for "some people" too look at Dustin, and Gifted and Santrega and TL and I and everyone else who dissagrees with them as stupid rather than actually consider what the other person is saying.

[Santrega]

What difference am I missing?

The difference is you don't have to do it in order to win the game. Sending workers was mandatory in SC, without it, you couldn't get going economically at all. Even the pro's struggle to go back to their base and send their workers to mine all of the time.

In PC for example, you don't have to use it at all, as your economy will work just fine without it. If the economical advantage belongs to your opponent because they did take advantage of it, its possible to still win, by for example a well placed psi-storm that takes out units which are equal to the amount of resources they gained using the macro mechanics at any point in time.

One was mandatory, the other is not. It is not required to win, no matter how many times you guys say it is. You can concentrate on other things, you can grab up high yield minerals, you can concentrate on abilities and harassment. You could not make this choice with workers in Sc1.

Most of you guys dance around and deviate from the core issue. Will this addition be fun?

I believe even though the act of casting larva injection, PC, or calling down mules won't be fun, the extra resources given will create additional fun. This additional fun will come from smaller down times between battles and more fighting. Considering most people think the fighting is where the fun is, having the ability to create more battles and less down time is both great for the game, and great for the spectator.

Additionally, I have added before that this cannot be given to a player the full game, as it must be something where you have to take your attention away, even for a second, from what you are doing and go back to recast it. The reason for this is simple, you might forget, you might decide what you are currently doing is more important, you might be involved in a battle, whether attacking or being attacked at the time you can cast the ability. This allows there to be a small gap between the benefits of this mechanic.

If the mechanic were to be given all of the time without player intervention, the games would turn in to fastest/BGH maps and wouldn't have the kind of strategy needed to survive in a non-money map. There would be a lot less expanding, and an expansion will come only after the mineral fields are close to gone, rather than expanding for additional income and future income. There will be a lot more building of mass armies rather than a constant flow of attacks meant to gain advantage.

Many of you might like BGH maps, I do as well... But they are fun because you can simply just throw mass armies around without much thought... The non-money maps take much more thought and skill to play, and improved down-time without an unlimited boost is the best way to go, in my opinion.

At the end of the day... Beta is where we find out if what I say is true, or if what you guys say is true.

[ArcherofAiur]

I believe even though the act of casting larva injection, PC, or calling down mules won't be fun, the extra resources given will create additional fun. This additional fun will come from smaller down times between battles and more fighting. Considering most people think the fighting is where the fun is, having the ability to create more battles and less down time is both great for the game, and great for the spectator.

This is true. Look at other RTSs that just give players their armies or make it easy to have your army at the maximum amount possible. You find that these games have little enjoyment in having a large army because your opponent most likely has the same size army. Starcraft was great because I could work hard to macro correctly and then I was rewarded with a huge army.

At the end of the day... Beta is where we find out if what I say is true, or if what you guys say is true.

Or if your both right.

[athe1st]

Dont worry its closing in pretty fast now.
One week ago Blizzard sent out press access mails requesting bnet accounts in europe as well.

Dont have too high hopes tho might still be a month away.

Where did you read that these e-mails have gone out?

[Nicol Bolas]

I think its much easier for "some people" too look at Dustin, and Gifted and Santrega and TL and I and everyone else who dissagrees with them as stupid rather than actually consider what the other person is saying.

I'm sorry; I'm going to need more than a logical fallacy to accept your position.

One was mandatory, the other is not. It is not required to win, no matter how many times you guys say it is. You can concentrate on other things, you can grab up high yield minerals, you can concentrate on abilities and harassment. You could not make this choice with workers in Sc1.

If you already have 20 workers on a mineral patch, the importance of getting the 21st to mine is substantially reduced. Indeed, depending on the number of minerals, it may even be non-existent.

The importance of getting a Mule or PC out is not. In fact, for PC, it's more important than ever. After 5 probes, PC is more important than putting workers on minerals.

If your opponent can keep up with these abilities and you cannot, they will win over the long game. You say that you can go for high-yield minerals, but they could do likewise and still keep pace. It will not substantially affect their micro, and it will not substantially affect their ability to expand. These abilities do not prevent the player from expanding or microing.

See, the issue with workers isn't in the early game. Anyone has the APM and attention to get their first workers on the mineral line. Where this issue matters is in the mid and late game. And it is at these points when getting workers on minerals becomes less important. Oh, it's still important. But it is less important, which is why you see Pros occasionally ignore it in favor of more important things. A few seconds delay for one worker when you have 50+ total mining is not that important in the grand scheme of things.

PC can be the equal of 4 or more workers. That's a lot. That's far more important to keep going than getting any single worker on the mineral line.

I believe even though the act of casting larva injection, PC, or calling down mules won't be fun, the extra resources given will create additional fun.

You can justify any mechanic that increases resources with that logic. And therefore, you can justify mechanics that increase resources while requiring decision making. Which are better than those that don't have decision making.

You can also use this logic to justify a mechanic where each race has a building that, once built, causes all workers to mine +1 resources (the effect doesn't stack).

That's the problem with this logic. It doesn't apply to these mechanics without also applying to innumerable other possibilities. So it doesn't count as an argument for these mechanics.

Furthermore, by admitting that these 3 aren't fun, you're basically saying that if there were fun mechanics that also gave resources, they'd be more fun than what we currently have.

So what is your argument for these mechanics and against mechanics that require decision making?

Beta is where we find out if what I say is true, or if what you guys say is true.

No, it is not.

It is a psychological fact that people will say that something that they would otherwise find unfun is fun so long as you give them a big enough reward. If you give me $20 million for spending the week watching grass grow, you'd better believe that 2 years later, I'll tell you that it was the best week of my life.

You're never going to get players coming out of beta saying, "You know, I wish PC had more decision making in it." This is how MMOs can have the most tedious gameplay in the history of videogames, yet people will still play them.

Subjective impressions are useless to this kind of thing. Particularly when there is no alternative mechanic presented that involves decision making. This is why, when doing proper focus testing, the post-test interview is the least useful piece of information. Watching what players do in the moment is far more enlightening than post-commentary.

[ArcherofAiur]

You're never going to get players coming out of beta saying, "You know, I wish PC had more decision making in it." This is how MMOs can have the most tedious gameplay in the history of videogames, yet people will still play them.

Question, if 11 million people playing WOW feel like they are having fun, but arnt "really" having fun, does it make any difference?

[Santrega]

Question, if 11 million people playing WOW feel like they are having fun, but arnt "really" having fun, does it make any difference?

Or, If someone is at home having fun with sc2, but no one is there to see it... did it really happen?

[Nicol Bolas]

Question, if 11 million people playing WOW feel like they are having fun, but arnt "really" having fun, does it make any difference?

It's a bit off-topic, but yes. It means that every MMO game after will be trying to copy WoW rather than making gameplay that doesn't blow ass.

It should also be noted that both of you ignored the substantive portion of my post. You know, where I eviscerated the points you were making. Are you therefore abandoning those arguments, or do you have something to logically defend those positions with?

I ask again, "What is your argument for these mechanics and against mechanics that require decision making?"