Karune posts regarding PC, Batch 53, and YouTube (09/25/09)

[trace wm]

makeitstopmakeitstopmakeitstopMAKEITSTOP

[Norfindel]

See you keep saying "some" like its something substantial. It has very very very little decision making. Just like PC. Here do you want me to prove that PC has "some" decision making. Ok my base is under attack early game and I need to sacrifice mineral energy inorder to cast Shield Recharge. Like cutting probes, you are temporarily freeing up a resource, but damaging your economy in the long run.

Workers are used to gather resources, build, and scout, and you depend so much of this weak, tiny unit, that the enemy is constantly thinking about killing them. There's no doubt that they add depth to the game.

About building them manually, sure, there could be an "autotrain button", but the Zerg will run into trouble with that, and probably it's so easy to train the workers, that it probably won't be worth the risk of mistakenly leaving the autotrain on.

[supersonic]

I'm pretty sure you guys have run around and around and around and around again about the same things...

No one really has any solid facts, proof, or much of anything seeing as the games not in beta yet, so you're only fighting opinions at this point, and when you're fighting opinions both people lose because as long as someones fighting they wont be wrong in their opinion.

So I think we should just END the macro convo, and if you must insist on fighting someones opinion about something (which is pointless), please go back to the point discussion thread (macro thread).

[Santrega]

I'm pretty sure you guys have run around and around and around and around again about the same things...

No one really has any solid facts, proof, or much of anything seeing as the games not in beta yet, so you're only fighting opinions at this point, and when you're fighting opinions both people lose because as long as someones fighting they wont be wrong in their opinion.

So I think we should just END the macro convo, and if you must insist on fighting someones opinion about something (which is pointless), please go back to the point discussion thread (macro thread).

I agree with you completely. We have been arguing semantics and 100% opinion, and we have even used completely unreliable numbers for our math. We need the game to prove our points... This is why beta is so important.

[supersonic]

I agree with you completely. We have been arguing semantics and 100% opinion, and we have even used completely unreliable numbers for our math. We need the game to prove our points... This is why beta is so important.

totally right... now where is that thing you call beta.. =/

[Nicol Bolas]

We need the game to prove our points... This is why beta is so important.

A bad mechanic is a bad mechanic. Just as you don't need to cut your finger to know that it is a bad idea, you don't need to play a bad mechanic to know that it is bad.

As exemplified by people who play SC1 and played SC2, it's a basic fact of human psychology that people will forgive anything if the reward is high enough. They'll even call it "fun" and "enjoyable", even though they would call it dull and boring the moment you take the reward away.

Sitting for a day watching the grass grow is not fun. But it becomes a lot more fun if you know you're going to get $20 million afterwards. Now, this does not change the objective fact that sitting for a day is not fun. But it does change the subjective experience overall.

That's the reason that MMO's work. They have crap for gameplay, but because they provide tangible, significant rewards that are evenly spaced and well apportioned, people have the subjective experience of enjoying playing them. That's also how gambling works: people play for the reward and the anticipation thereof, not the moment-to-moment enjoyment of the task at hand.

None of that makes MMO gameplay objectively good. Nor does it make PC good. All it does is show that some people will happily slog through crap to get the candy.

It doesn't matter if everyone who plays the Beta loves PC. That will not make it a good gameplay mechanic. It will not cause it to spontaneously develop decision making or strategic depth. All that will show is that the people playing the game will enjoy a repetitive mechanic so long as you bribe them enough.

[supersonic]

A bad mechanic is a bad mechanic. Just as you don't need to cut your finger to know that it is a bad idea, you don't need to play a bad mechanic to know that it is bad.

As exemplified by people who play SC1 and played SC2, it's a basic fact of human psychology that people will forgive anything if the reward is high enough. They'll even call it "fun" and "enjoyable", even though they would call it dull and boring the moment you take the reward away.

Sitting for a day watching the grass grow is not fun. But it becomes a lot more fun if you know you're going to get $20 million afterwards. Now, this does not change the objective fact that sitting for a day is not fun. But it does change the subjective experience overall.

That's the reason that MMO's work. They have crap for gameplay, but because they provide tangible, significant rewards that are evenly spaced and well apportioned, people have the subjective experience of enjoying playing them. That's also how gambling works: people play for the reward and the anticipation thereof, not the moment-to-moment enjoyment of the task at hand.

None of that makes MMO gameplay objectively good. Nor does it make PC good. All it does is show that some people will happily slog through crap to get the candy.

It doesn't matter if everyone who plays the Beta loves PC. That will not make it a good gameplay mechanic. It will not cause it to spontaneously develop decision making or strategic depth. All that will show is that the people playing the game will enjoy a repetitive mechanic so long as you bribe them enough.

See it's funny you say that cause... you still don't know till beta comes out.. it could be totally strategic you just don't know yet.

[Nicol Bolas]

See it's funny you say that cause... you still don't know till beta comes out.. it could be totally strategic you just don't know yet.

Do you have to actually shoot a bullet into someone's head to know what it will do to them? Of course not; all you need is an understanding of physics, the composition of a human head, and the velocity of a bullet. Practical experience is not the only way to gain knowledge.

What makes PC bad is it's basic structure. There is nothing, nothing about it that can ever be strategic. There is no decision making; you simply use it as often as possible.

Now, you can excuse a bad mechanic. You can even like one. But that doesn't change the fact that it is bad.

Unless the mechanic itself is changed or what it is slaved to is changed, the essential nature of the mechanic is a priori bad. People using the mechanic will not change it, nor will subjective experience of it.

[supersonic]

Do you have to actually shoot a bullet into someone's head to know what it will do to them? Of course not; all you need is an understanding of physics, the composition of a human head, and the velocity of a bullet. Practical experience is not the only way to gain knowledge.

What makes PC bad is it's basic structure. There is nothing, nothing about it that can ever be strategic. There is no decision making; you simply use it as often as possible.

Now, you can excuse a bad mechanic. You can even like one. But that doesn't change the fact that it is bad.

Unless the mechanic itself is changed or what it is slaved to is changed, the essential nature of the mechanic is a priori bad. People using the mechanic will not change it, nor will subjective experience of it.

ummm yes the very first time you would touch a hot stove to learn it's hot, so your thinking is flawed because you know nothing about PC vs something you already know. What about getting more energy for your HT to cast storm on a swarm of mutalisk? You can't say it's bad and you can't argue about it because you just don't really know, the only thing you guys are arguing about is your opinions and it's pointless, and quite frankly getting kind of annoying.

[Gifted]

My thoughts:

For a man who is known for writing walls of text, bask in the glory of simplicity:

Wait til Beta

My friend "Jack Doe" when I brought up how often these threads appear in our forums:

(12:32 am) Jack Doe: Saying that Macro Mechanics are imbalanced in comparison to another mechanic is like the statement: [Zerg can produce more units simultaneously so they can win more, this is imbalanced and should be fixed.]

(12:34 am) Jack Doe: This is only a single aspect of the entire racial picture. If we give on one thing, we take from another. So if a mechanic is easier for one race, you better damn well believe other mechanics will be more difficult than their racial counterparts. Paper won't tell you the big picture, beta will tell you that shit.

Summary

Nothing new here Beta is coming and they're working hard on it. We do know 2 new things from this blue post (Karune's). 1. Blizzard is aware that it's imbalanced. 2. Blizzard is ok with it being imbalanced as they are looking at the game in perception of "races" instead of "individual mechanics within a race". I feel that I agree with that mentality and will do my best to avoid any of the "macro mechanic" subjects until Beta to get a true perspective. *plink plink* My two cents.

If you quote this post/opinion, please start with /agree or /disagree, I'm curious where you stand on my (or Jack's) opinion.